The Instigator
MrHardRock
Pro (for)
Losing
25 Points
The Contender
feverish
Con (against)
Winning
143 Points

Metal takes more skill than Rap

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/6/2010 Category: Arts
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 20,689 times Debate No: 10715
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (79)
Votes (29)

 

MrHardRock

Pro

First all I would like to thank whoever accepts this debate.
I am here to argue that metal and all of it's sub-genres takes more skill than rap and all of it's sub-genres.
As a avid listener of all music and literally all music I feel I have a better opinion on this than others do.
I listen to all genres of metal, all genres of punk, all genres of rap, all genres of classic rock, and a little bit of country.
My opponent may choose to start debating now or wait for round 2.
feverish

Con

I'd like to thank my opponent for the opportunity to debate this topic and also to welcome him to the site.

As my opponent is both Pro and instigator of this debate, it is his responsibility to prove the resolution with supporting evidence and my job as Con to refute it. I am not trying to shed my own share of the burden of proof and I will present some arguments in this opening round but my opponent will need to make some points of his own, rather than just responding to mine.

Pro: "I am here to argue that metal and all of it's sub-genres takes more skill than rap and all of it's sub-genres."

To negate the resolution, I need to prove that "rap" takes either more, OR an equal amount of skill to compose, produce and perform than metal.

___________________

Pro hasn't clearly defined metal or rap but I will assume that he isn't intending to debate the skill requirements of casting steel vs. those of striking a table with one's knuckles and that this is a musical debate.

I would like a clearer definition from my opponent of what "metal and all of it's sub-genres" applies to but in the meantime, I will provide my own interpretation of "rap and all it's sub-genres".

"Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live" - KRS One. http://www.zulunation.com...

'(To) rap' is a verb but 'rap music' is the musical expression of hip hop culture http://en.wikipedia.org... and is more correctly titled as 'hip hop music'. http://en.wikipedia.org...

It is clear from the "all of it's sub-genres" stipulation that this is intended to be a wide range of music, so to clarify; we are talking about hip hop music, including the arts of turntablism and hip hop production (but not the visual/athletic arts of graf and breaking) rather than just the art of rapping. http://en.wikipedia.org... Also, we are talking about old skool and underground hip hop as well as the commercial rap played on pop radio.
_________

Pro: "As a avid listener of all music and literally all music I feel I have a better opinion on this than others do."

My opponent clearly exaggerates wildly here as it would be a physical impossibility for anyone to listen to "literally all music". http://www.discogs.com... Discogs lists 1,741,335 music releases, many of them full length albums and I have strong doubts that my opponent has listened to all of this music, let alone "all music".

Pro's assertion that because he listens to a wide range of music he has "a better opinion on this than others do." seems naive. Opinions are by definition subjective and most people are of the opinion that their own opinion is correct. I think there is a fair chance that I listen to an even wider range of music than my opponent but I'm not going to suggest that this automatically makes my opinion better than his.

_________

My contentions:

1. Lyrics:

It requires more skill to write quality lyrics for a hip hop song than to write quality lyrics for a metal song.

In hip hop the vocals are generally the focus and because the words are being rapped rather than being sung, the meaning of the lyrics takes precedence. In metal the lyrics are usually not the listeners main focus and in much screamo metal, the words are unintelligible and the vocal performance itself becomes more important than the lyrics.

I'm not denying the fact that there are metal songs with great lyrics and hip hop tunes with crap lyrics. The point is that a metal song can still be great if the lyrics are simple, nonsensical or even forsaken entirely for roars and screams. A rap song will always be judged for it's lyrics so the quality benchmark is higher and requires greater writing skill.

For hip hop lyrics to be effective they also need to contain complex rhyming patterns that are not necessary in metal, they require greater rhythmic consistency than metal lyrics because when rapping, the voice becomes a lead rhythm instrument. They also almost invariably contain more actual words, because the lyrics are usually delivered at a quicker pace and verse lengths are normally longer. Rappers are also rated for their poetic skills with metaphors and wordplay in a manner that is less associated with the directness of metal.

For reference, I have provided some sample hip hop lyrics and metal lyrics. Comparison will back up my statements above. http://www.absolutelyrics.com... http://www.elyrics.net... http://www.lyrics007.com... http://www.darklyrics.com... http://www.lyricsfreak.com... http://www.darklyrics.com...

2. Manual dexterity.

An important aspect of hip hop music is the DJ's turntablism. http://en.wikipedia.org...

I believe quality turntablism requires greater manual dexterity and coordination than any standard musical aspect of metal and that it requires a greater volume of hours spent practising in order to acquire this skill to a high enough standard, than would be needed to play most metal compositions on any instrument.

I believe that the average person with basic rhythm, an interest in learning and a decent teacher could learn to play one classic metal riff (not solo) on the guitar or one metal bassline or a backbeat on the drums within two weeks maximum. I taught my five year-old daughter (now 6) to play a straight beat on the drums within ten minutes (she never practices but she can still do it now).

Performing a classic four finger crab scratch ttp://en.wikipedia.org...(scratch) or a basic beat juggling routine http://en.wikipedia.org... on demand would almost certainly take several months of practice.

Note that I am merely comparing specific performance phrases rather than any idea of mastering your instrument or perfecting your craft because I believe that all musical disciplines are equally demanding in that respect.

__________

I'll hand over to my opponent now, really looking forward to his arguments.

Thanks.
Con.
Debate Round No. 1
MrHardRock

Pro

Thank you Con.
But I believe the definition of metal to be so obvious that it requires very little definition but for those who do not know we are going to go by this http://en.wikipedia.org... and any other sub-genres listed there.
For Hip-Hop/Rap http://en.wikipedia.org... and any other sub-genres listed there.

The quote he listed from KRS-One who in my opinion is a very skilled and influential rapper is an opinion not a fact therefore not relevant.

Many hip-hop artist have senseless lyrics that do not deal with anything and is just worldly bragging such as http://www.azlyrics.com...
As you will notice these lyrics are not well thought out at all as my opponent stated hip-hop lyrics are more thought out and better than rock/metal lyrics.

This is not true which I will prove with http://www.lyricsmania.com...
In this song he is describing how he may look happy and feel well but in reality he is just hiding it all inside.

My opponent then states that hip-hop has more and better rhythm then metal which I will now provide a list of just a few melodic metal songs

yes I know the last one is a cover but it is still metal is it not?

He then says turntable DJ's need more manual dexterity than any position in a metal band I will counter this with

listen to the drums in this song all real
yet again listen to the drums

He also says that rappers require more vocal talent than metal musicians due to the music being based upon the voice.
This is a horrible claim to make considering nearly every rap musician today uses the auto-tune effect on their voice either more noticeable such as T-Pain
Or less noticeable such as Lil Wayne
These musicians do not posses the vocal talents of

I challenge my opponent to find a rapper/rap group with as much talent as any of these but for my final argument
Find a rapper/rap group that preforms with so much energy that they get the crowd to do this

Thank you I conclude my argument on that note and wait for my opponent to respond.
feverish

Con

Wow.

My opponent has made no arguments of his own, has misrepresented or ignored every point I've made and has spammed the debate with no less than 14 music videos.

He set up this debate saying: "I am here to argue that metal and all of it's sub-genres takes more skill than rap and all of it's sub-genres" so presumably he has some points of his own that he would like to make. Merely responding to my contentions is not sufficient, he should also make his own case as I stated last round.

_______________

The quote from KRS is not relevant to the resolution but it is relevant to an understanding of what hip hop music is. "Rap is something you do, hip hop is something you live" that's why if you type "rap music" into Wiki you are re-directed to the more correctly titled "hip hop music".

As far as it being mere opinion, the same could be said for every statement my opponent makes.

____________

Pro: "Many hip-hop artist have senseless lyrics that do not deal with anything and is just worldly bragging such as [link to Lil' Wayne lyrics] As you will notice these lyrics are not well thought out at all as my opponent stated hip-hop lyrics are more thought out and better than rock/metal lyrics."

This is one massive logical fallacy.

Firstly, I gave specific examples and reasons why hip hop lyrics (in general) required more effort and skill than metal lyrics (in general) and Pro has reduced this to "more thought out and better" ignoring all of my individual points.

He posts the lyrics of one tune with no real subject matter and ignorant content, claiming that this proves that most hip hop lyrics are "not well thought out".

Lil' Wayne =/= most hip hop music.

One example does not prove anything about an entire genre and for every ignorant rap tune my opponent finds, I'm sure I can find an ignorant metal tune to match it.

Pro is attempting to argue rap vs. metal by comparing some of the worst examples of hip hop with some of the best examples of metal. This is unfair and when I have referenced metal acts I have referenced respected and quality artists including ones mentioned on my opponent's profile.

I'm not a Lil' Wayne fan, I think he's whack; but I think even in this example, the lyrics are more complicated than a lot of metal in some ways. There are more lyrics, far more complicated rhyme structures (honestly, ignore the Bugatti bollox and scroll down a bit to see complex multi-syllabic rhymes that still make sense) and a lot of clever wordplay, mostly based around pop culture references.

Pro then claims that his example of a metal tune that deals with emotions shows that metal lyrics are more thought out but doesn't explain why. The lyrics he posted are extremely simple and repetitive in terms of structure and rhyme but I quite like the image of the Chelsea smile being the only way to get a real smile out of him (the Chelsea smile is a gruesome act of mutilation involving slicing both sides of the face from lip to ear with a razor blade, it is named after hooligan supporters of Chelsea FC who used to employ it on rivals http://en.wikipedia.org...).

As the only comment Pro makes about the lyrics is that it deals with feelings, I can only assume that this is his sole criteria for assessing quality in lyrics. If that is indeed the case he should check out these hip hop tunes that deal with emotions on a realistic but very deep level. http://www.mp3lyrics.org... Passin' Me By deals with being unable to express one's emotion to a girl. http://www.lyricsmania.com... Looking At The Front Door discusses a relationship on the verge of breakdown. http://www.ohhla.com... In "Last Good Sleep" by Company Flow, rapper/producer El-P describes witnessing the physical abuse of his mother as a child and breaking down in tears as a grown man when he hears the sounds of domestic violence from his neighbour's residence. Then there's Eminem.

Pro: "My opponent then states that hip-hop has more and better rhythm then metal which I will now provide a list of just a few melodic metal songs"

This is actually a total straw-man argument as my point was simply that *the lyrics* required more rhythmic consistency and sophistication, not the genre as a whole. My opponent has misconstrued my argument. In any case, melody and rhythm are quite separate things so I don't see the relevance of the melodic metal at all.

As far as lyrics go, my opponent has ignored my points about lyrics being the focus of hip-hop, about the non-lyrical quality of a lot of metal vocals, about hip-hop songs having more lyrics on average, about rhymes, about the rhythm of the vocals, about word-play and about metaphors.

_________________

As for the issue of manual dexterity, my opponent has again ignored the crux of my argument. I was comparing two specific hip hop DJ skills (beat juggle and crab scratch) with specific metal musician skills (playing a simple riff, bassline or backbeat). I can play the drums and I can scratch (although I'm quite a lot better at the latter, having spent many times over as long practicing it), I also teach. I can train a five-year-old to play a backbeat in 10 minutes but it would take me months to teach an adult to crab with any control.

Pro: "listen to the drums in this song all real
yet again listen to the drums"

This is no kind of an argument. Even if my opponent had left some indication which song he was referring to, he would still need to explain why his example displayed more manual dexterity http://www.google.co.uk... than striking the crossfader with four fingers and thumb to make it move back and forth eight times in under a second.

__________

Pro: "nearly every rap musician today uses the auto-tune effect on their voice"

If my opponent really wishes, then I'm sure I could provide a list of well over a hundred rappers recording today who have never and would never use auto-tune software on their vocals, I would use the comments section rather than the debate to do so if requested.

Please don't make such hideous generalisations about hip hop, there is far more to it than T-Pain and Lil' Wayne (I would be loathe to even consider T-Pain as hip hop).

Pro: "These musicians do not posses the vocal talents of..."

Of who? Pavarotti? ;)

As well as explaining who he is referring to, my opponent should give reasons why (a) is better or worse than (b) rather than just stating it as fact.

______

Pro: "I challenge my opponent to find a rapper/rap group with as much talent as any of these but for my final argument
Find a rapper/rap group that preforms with so much energy that they get the crowd to do this"

Again, I can't be sure which of his many videos my opponent is referring to here. I would request that he try to refrain from posting 45 minutes of music in the next round and suggest that if he does think that video is the best format to prove his arguments that he makes it clear which videos his text refers to.

If he wants to debate individuals or specific groups then he should define the criteria for "talent", "energy" etc. and tell me who I should compare my choices with.

_________

Once again, as Pro and Instigator, my opponent needs to make concrete arguments of his own as well as addressing my points directly.

Thanks.
Con.
Debate Round No. 2
MrHardRock

Pro

My opponent obviously trying to be witty tries to insult me in clever ways.
He in his last post countered very little of what my argument said and only insulted me.

He says all I do is counter his post well I proved that metal takes more skill didn't I?
So I do not understand what he says when I do not bring up points of my own, but likewise I will bring up my own arguments

Hip Hop takes no skill other than writing and composing lyrics apart from the few bands that use REAL instruments such as Cypress Hill.
This is because almost every rap artist uses no instruments in the recording or preforming of their music.
Live performances are extremely difficult to do in metal because you have to play whatever you recorded in the studio on the spot in front of an audience.
Hip Hop artist use no instruments in the recording or live performances taking away a large portion of talent that music making requires.

Hip hop artist also preform with little to no energy as metal musicians you can see always getting into the music they play and having fun while doing it.

My opponent said I compared some of the best metal acts to some of the worst hip hop acts.
Well Lil Wayne seems to be an extremely popular figure as I have heard many people call him the greatest rapper of all time. My own brother for a fact said if you have Lil Wayne say "Weezy Baby" in your song it will automatically go straight to the top.
So even if I was using some of the worst examples of hip hop please I encourage you to use some of the worst examples of metal.

He says he taught his five year old daughter to play a back beat in five minutes, but it takes months to learn how to crab with any control.
Now add guitar and bass to that back beat and try to make it rhythmic and melodic sounding enough to sell.

I do give you props for the Pavarotti comment. It gave me a smirk.

But the P.O.S. is the only hip hop artist that I have ever heard with a good voice(I personally think he is extremely talented)
So I will compare him to the likes of Chris Cornell a cross-over artist with his last release. For this purpose we are going to use the Cornell of Soundgarden/ Audioslave.

Even though P.O.S. has an extremely good voice that he shows through his great rapping/singing in his music he in no way possesses the power and range that Cornell shows in his music. Cornell has always been just shy of the mainstream eye which is why he is not always listed in the list of greatest singers of all time.
P.O.S. is completely ignored by the mainstream eye which is why he is never considered in list of great hip hop artist which he without a doubt should be.

I will make another comparison of hip hop musicians to rock vocalist.
Common another great rapper that does not get the recognition he deserves compared to Eddie Vedder.
Yes I know Pearl Jam is not metal they are hard rock with many metal influences and such.

Common gives more emotion than any other rapper I have ever heard, but he in no way gives anywhere near the emotion that Eddie Vedder shows in his singing. Eddie Vedder not only puts more emotion and heart into his music than Common he also has an incredible and powerful voice that echoes throughout whatever arena he is playing. Common is an extremely talented rapper but he is still in no way better than Eddie Vedder.
feverish

Con

Thanks MrHardRock.

Pro: "My opponent obviously trying to be witty tries to insult me in clever ways.
He in his last post countered very little of what my argument said and only insulted me."

I am truly sorry that my opponent found my summary of his round insulting, this was not my intention and my criticisms were meant to be constructive. As for being witty, I can't really help that; I guess it's a curse. ;)

Careful reading of my last post will however reveal that I did in fact respond to every point he made, although I couldn't assess all of his statements because it was often unclear what video he was referring to.

Pro: "I proved that metal takes more skill didn't I?"

In the nicest possible way, no you didn't. To prove something you need to cite examples that illustrate your claims and explain exactly how they prove your points. Pointing someone to a video is not the same as proving an argument.

___

Pro: "Hip Hop takes no skill other than writing and composing lyrics..."

Hang on a minute, we've already briefly discussed DJing, scratching and turntablism but what about other musical aspects such as beatboxing and of course hip hop production. Making a quality hip hop beat is a skilled task, from hooking up a loop to programming a drum beat and applying compression and other effects, these are all complex skills that need to be learned and developed. Also, MCing does not only involve writing/composition, it of course entails vocal performance as well.

Pro: "...apart from the few bands that use REAL instruments such as Cypress Hill."
"Hip Hop artist use no instruments in the recording or live performances"

Contrary to popular belief and my opponent's assertions there are many, many hip hop acts that incorporate 'real' instruments in their music. For some, the band of musicians is as integral to the whole creative and recording process as the rapper(s), many use live instruments alongside samples in their recordings and a great number use live bands to recreate their music in front of an audience. I shall give some examples.

The Roots http://en.wikipedia.org...
With 8 albums and 18 years touring experience The Roots' line-up has always included drums, bass, keyboards and percussion and now features guitar as well. Incidentally, the guitarist (who has the unlikely name of Kirk Douglas) wore a Black Sabbath T-shirt when they came and played in Birmingham (mine and Ozzy's home town) which I thought was cool.

The Beastie Boys http://en.wikipedia.org...
MCs Mike D, MCA and Ad-Rock play drums, bass and guitar respectively. Having started off as hardcore punk band they have blended their musicianship and rhyming skills throughout their career.

Their first album (produced by Heavy Metal godfather Rick Rubin) premiered rock-rap months before Aerosmith and Run DMC told us to "Walk This Way" and although the masterpiece Paul's Boutique and their two most recent albums are more sample based, their classic 90s albums Check Your Head and Ill Communication included rock, metal and bugged out funk instrumentals. These albums also feature the keyboard skills of Money Mark and percussion from Eric Bobo who also worked with Cypress Hill.

Sugarhill Gang http://en.wikipedia.org...
Hip hop's first hit record Rapper's Delight features live musicians, the rhythm track is copied from Good Times by Chic and many mistakenly believe it is an example of early sampling. Subsequent Sugarhill hip hop recordings had an awesome lineup of musicians including drummer Keith Leblanc, bassist Doug Wimbush and guitarist Little Axe.

The Goats http://www.rollingstone.com...
This Philly crew's under-rated second album features an 8 piece backing band and guest appearances from the original black punks Bad Brains.

Stetsasonic http://en.wikipedia.org...
These old school legends prided themselves on being a live band as well as a hip hop crew.

LA Afro-Cuban band Ozomatli make hip hop music, Delicious Vinyl released an album in 93 with The Brand New Heavies backing a host of rappers, KMD's classic album Black Bastards features live bass, UK trip hoppers like Massive Attack and Portishead frequently use live musicians and even orchestras, Wu Tang's last full album 8 Diagrams is awash with electric guitar and their more recent mini-album Chamber Music is entirely live instruments. Similar to my claims about MCs who don't use auto tune, I know I can provide hundreds of examples of hip hop tunes with "real" instruments.

Well known hip hop acts I have personally witnessed performing live with a full band include The Roots (of course), Public Enemy (who also worked with Anthrax in the 90s), Arrested Development, The Pharcyde and Roots Manuva.

There are loads of live hip hop bands in my area. My band Munchbreak play hip hop based around live instruments and I've performed with several other bands as a rapper and/or scratch DJ, Birmingham based Soweto Kinch plays jazz sax and raps with a full band and Cantaloop from Wolverhampton are another live hip hop band.

Also if the turntable isn't a 'real' instrument and scratch DJs aren't 'real' musicians then what the hell are we doing and getting paid for when we perform or record with bands?

___

Pro: "Hip hop artist also preform with little to no energy"

I guess the simplest way to refute this is by providing examples of energetic hip hop performances, see vids.

___

Pro: "I encourage you to use some of the worst examples of metal."

I think there is more value in discussing the merits of music rather than criticising it.

___

Pro: "He says he taught his five year old daughter to play a back beat in five minutes, but it takes months to learn how to crab with any control. Now add guitar and bass to that back beat"

Well then you would also have to add lyrics, rapping, production, mixing and other aspects of DJing as well, you can't just put a crab scratch on a record and sell it.

It seems my opponent concedes that the individual act requires more skill in manual dexterity, at least he does not refute it.

___

Chris Cornell v POS

I'm really sorry but I don't know who POS is so I can't really comment on him but I'm willing to accept Pro's contention that he has a great voice that is nevertheless inferior to the voice of Chris Cornell.

What it's important to consider though is that while singing ability is indeed a skill that can be developed, it is very much dependant on the natural voice. Vocal tone is important in rapping but probably less important than flow and lyrics; one can become a great rapper with an unremarkable voice but not a great singer.

This is a debate about skill, not about talent. Don't get me wrong, of course it takes talent to rap and skill to sing but rapping is more about developed skill and singing is more about natural talent.

___

Eddie Vedder v Common.

I'm willing to concede to my opponent that Eddie does have a more "powerful voice" than Com and can project emotion better with his voice.

Again though I would argue that this is more of a natural ability than a learned skill. I think Common's skill in writing lyrics is far superior to Vedder's and since my opponent has dropped the argument about lyrics across the two genres and as he considers Com such an emotive MC, I can only assume that he agrees. Vedder may be more talented but Common is more skilled.

___

I will try to avoid making new arguments that my opponent can't respond to in the last round and will just refute any new points he makes and summarise the debate.

Thanks.

Con.
Debate Round No. 3
MrHardRock

Pro

Thank you Con and before this debate is over I would like to thank you for a good debate.

But my opponent has listed a few rap artist/groups that use instruments. I personally am not a fan of these bands but I respect their talent and contributions to music they made. But I challenge you to find a metal band that does not use instruments. I would also like to say that even though a hip hop artist/group might use instruments they most likely, but not always will be more simple than a metal bands would be.

Pro: "Hip hop artist also preform with little to no energy"

Con: "I guess the simplest way to refute this is by providing examples of energetic hip hop performances, see vids."

If you are referring to the videos you posted on the comments section I will say they had great soul and emotion but I saw little energy within these performances.

Also in metal the bands almost always make up original music on there own. Hip hop artist often sample songs to make there songs. This is a huge reason that metal takes more skill because it needs more creativity. I know there are also many hip hop artist that make their own beats and music but there are also many that do use samples.

I thank my opponent again and wish you the best in the future.
Vote Pro!
feverish

Con

I'd also like to thank MrHardRock for a lively and engaging debate.

In summary I don't believe that Pro has fulfilled his burden of proof or established that metal takes more skill than rap, I think I've given clear examples of how some aspects of hip hop require more skill than heavy metal and done enough to negate the resolution.

I won't post too much in this final round, I'll just respond to my opponent's last post.

_____________

Pro: "I challenge you to find a metal band that does not use instruments."

I love a challenge. http://www.myspace.com...

Pro: "I would also like to say that even though a hip hop artist/group might use instruments they most likely, but not always will be more simple than a metal bands would be."

I disagree with this, most metal bands consist of the holy trinity of drums, bass and guitar whereas most of the hip hop bands that use instruments incorporate keyboards and percussion and I think you are far more likely to hear woodwind, strings and brass in hip hop than in heavy metal. My band's album features live drums, electric bass, acoustic bass, guitar, sax, flute, trumpet, various percussion instruments from all over the world, Rhodes piano and scratching.

Pro: "If you are referring to the videos you posted on the comments section I will say they had great soul and emotion but I saw little energy within these performances."

My bad, I should have specified that I meant the videos I posted in the debate round: KRS, Wu-Tang and The Roots. I think there is a great deal of energy in these performances, especially from KRS, who is over 40 in this vid. I thought these were also good examples in respect of Pro's previous points about crowd excitement. Kris did the same freestyle in the crowd thing when he came to Birmingham, which is a much more hardcore audience. It was absolutely insane.

_____

Pro: "Also in metal the bands almost always make up original music on there own. Hip hop artist often sample songs to make there songs. This is a huge reason that metal takes more skill because it needs more creativity. I know there are also many hip hop artist that make their own beats and music but there are also many that do use samples."

The whole idea of 'originality' in music is a misleading concept, there are only 12 notes in a chromatic scale and a finite number of ways to arrange them. There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Most metal songs have a pretty simple three chord structure and the same riffs can be recycled over and over again by different bands. Metal bands may be much less likely to use samples but they are just as prone to conscious and unconscious plagiarism as their hip hop peers.

Sampling is itself an art and a means of creative expression, by combining and layering samples and chopping them up to rearrange the parts in different ways, a new and totally different composition is created.

Another important thing to consider when comparing the originality of these two genres is the issue of covers. Most working metal musicians I know perform in 'tribute' bands, these are groups who perform the repertoire of well known bands and the band names are often puns on the original (Fred Zeppelin, Brian Maiden and Jeff Leopard are my favourites). By contrast up and coming rappers always pride themselves on their originality (even if they have none) and there is no more heinous crime than biting (plagiarising) another MCs lyrics.

On Google "metal tribute band" gets 62,000 hits, "hip hop tribute band" only 10,000. http://www.google.co.uk...= http://www.google.co.uk...=

______

I think in this debate I established my two arguments about lyricism and manual dexterity and successfully countered Pro's assertions about emotional content, energy, instruments and creativity.

I think that quality music of any genre takes a lot of skill to produce and I will always defend the merits of hip hop culture against stereotypes and assumptions.

Thanks again Pro, it was great to debate a new member who didn't forfeit a round, and to discuss music with someone as passionate about it as I am myself. Hope you stick around and good luck with your future debates.

Thanks everyone for reading, please vote for the stronger arguments and not just for your preferred genre.

Con.
Debate Round No. 4
79 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Werdfu16 1 year ago
Werdfu16
A 5 yr old,,there are 5 yr olds who can learn to play classical violin within2 weeks,,there are 5 year olds who can program computers!!!Of course there are many crappy metal bands that a 5 yr old could learn basic musical lines,,But I challenge almost any 5 yr old to,learn any ,,iron maiden ,Metallica,yngvie malmstein,manowar,,motley cure the list goes on and on and have them play just one of their songs in 2 weeks.
There are plenty of rap songs a 5 year old could learn in two weeks.Puffy,vanilla ice,bizmarkie just to begin with..And there is a lot more quality rappers that a 5 yr old could never learn..
Access YouTube and u will c hundreds of 5 yr olds being dj at parties and cutting and scratching,,some are good some are not.I doubt they have practicing for long as they are only 5.There is also plenty of 5 yr olds playing many string instruments as well, some good some bad..
Manual dexterity,,I did not know musical talent was based on physical ability!!!!But ok.
Almost all dj' s only use two hands turning and twisting pushing buttons changing records for beats and scratching and using equalizers and effects sliders and switches.Always staying in same area periodically talking to crowd or maybe being hype man in background.It is definitely a physical act.
In metal most musicians are using two hand to play instrument and a foot or two to change pedals on floor,all the while running around thrashing their head jumping up and down and some sing while playing instrument..
Drummers use all limbs as they twist and turn just as frequent if not more than a dj and some sing while playing as well.
Comparing lyrics is way to subjective to truly argue..As some songs just touch a person a certain way relating to life and other things to truly say which are better artistically.
Rap is totally based on lyrics,trying to,get message across..So,most likely in general lyrics overall are slightly better.Does it take more talent??? Hard to argue as people's taste vary to wildly
Posted by ElHombre 4 years ago
ElHombre
Of course it depends on what hip-hop group and what metal group you are listening to. There are some heavy metal instrumentalists and vocalists who are far more talented than other rappers. However, there are also many hip-hop acts with much greater impressive abilities than certain metal groups. I don't know. It would be very difficult to come to a conclusion on such a broad topic. But I will say this; a truly worthwhile emcee is one of the rarest things in music. A person who can rhyme with such style and subtlety that you follow his/her career and become an avid fan strictly by virtue of their word wizardry is an extremely uncommon breed and you can count on two hands the number of rhyme sayers that actually amaze their listeners with timeless verses that live on. I'm not saying that one is more difficult than another, but I think these people come around far less often than a good guitarists, drummer or scream-o styled singer. Just an observation.
Posted by SexyLatina 5 years ago
SexyLatina
Thank you for clearing that up, wxdanwx. Your reply was comprehensive, and now this issue can finally be put to rest.

P.S. Necro
Posted by wxdanwx 5 years ago
wxdanwx
let me put an end to this, this is an argument that me and a few friends have had for a long time, but...
they finally accepted that metal was more difficult, even though they don't like it, which is fine, we don't judge each other over music, I don't think we can help what gene of music we like.
and can was being very patronising.
Posted by jonhphilip 6 years ago
jonhphilip
I listen to all types of music. i listen to rock rap classical r&b electronic and way more. i feel that depending on what you do as a hip hop artist can be more challenging than then metal. For example take a good producer like jaydee to do some of the stuff he does hem might have to know how to play the piano the guitar and the drums. He also might have to know and study 20 different types of music (not just listen but study and really know them). THen he will need to compile all this info and put it into a beat limited by hip hop standers and format. a rock metal artist will only have to study things around his own type of music, and when they have to apply what they know they don't have to change much with format.
Posted by Nathan_E_13oyd 6 years ago
Nathan_E_13oyd
first of all, i listen to a wide variety of music. i at least give a genre a chance before saying whether i like it or not. i feel both of you are very passionate about your opinions, but in mine, these genres should have never been compared to one another in the first place. it's like apples & oranges. though i do like metal more than i do rap, i feel both have strong points, as well as weaknesses. to say one is better than the other is, in my opinion, lunacy. this is a diverse world that needs diverse musical styles. also, these two genres often borrow from one another, so much so that they have a combination genre known as rap-metal. so to pit them against each other is just ridiculous. while feverish made better arguments, &, i believe, won this debate, it still doesn't change the fact that i found this debate to be pointless. accept each other for your differences, & if you're ever hanging out by chance & can't decide what to listen to, try linkin park, korn, papa roach, p.o.d., & other rap-metal artists. lol. :) god bless, rock on, & stay frosty. \m/
Posted by rawuncut 6 years ago
rawuncut
Im going to be honest with all of yall

Rap will never be better than metal..

Metal will always rule

Rap is garbage!
Posted by ittastenasty 6 years ago
ittastenasty
i agree with shtookah rap is way better than metal
Posted by Shtookah 6 years ago
Shtookah
yuck metal
Posted by Eldaforever 7 years ago
Eldaforever
I had really hoped to see a stronger front on the pro side of this debate. There weren't many solid arguments or rebuttals on the pro side; mostly opinions stated as facts and personal feelings expressed. As far as complexity of instruments, I believe they are quite similar in demands of skill, at the very least. My personal taste leans more toward the metal side, but I will not deny that both require much skill in the ways of actually playing the different instruments of lyric and there is no solid comparison of guitars versus turntables. So far as lyrics go, they are similar. You can argue that rap has negative messages in it promoted sex, violence, and anger. But the same thing can be applied to metal. They are both complex storytelling methods. But what about the pulling together of those threads which bind the cacophony of sound into music? Is putting a rhythmitic, almost tribal chanting to the beat of a drum or a turntable, etc, the same as placing a bassline alongside lead and rhythm guitars, a drum set and a vocalist? And in speaking of the vocals, you may argue that rap requires a more in-depth poetic grasp and calls for more ingenuity than the 'simple phrases' in metal. And yes, metal lyrics tend to take second-place over overall sound. But what about the conveying of those thoughts/feelings/music? Does a rapper require the flexibility of voice that a metal singer has? Some may just do screams, but many do a combination of head and chest voice, a variety of screams, growls, and other such noises, etc. There is also vocal range to be considered. Perhaps my thoughts are more stylistically honed, and there is always a chance of bias here, but I believe this is a debate on musical complexity, and I would not like this idea overlooked.

I was disappointed at the pro debate on this, which could have been a very deep debate on musical quality, which is very abstract in itself. : ( Con made some fabulous points and I feel like it was one-sided
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