The Instigator
Black_L1ghtn1ng
Pro (for)
Losing
93 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
98 Points

Michael Jackson is the best pop singer ever.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2008 Category: Arts
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,217 times Debate No: 3181
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (50)

 

Black_L1ghtn1ng

Pro

He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. He just is. yeah
Danielle

Con

I'd like to start off this debate by acknowledging that I am a huge Michael Jackson fan (music-wise).

With that said, although Michael Jackson is one of the most talented and well-known/well-loved performers of our time, there are a few flaws with a) the topic of debate and b) the way you chose to argue this debate thus far.

First, the subject of this debate is completely subjective. By saying that MJ is the "best pop SINGER" ever, you are implying that he has the best vocal ability. Surely there are other pop artists who have a wider vocal range, a more powerful voice, etc. I'm not sure that a majority of voters would agree that he has the best singing VOICE per se even if they agree that he is/was extremely talented, influential, unique, a great dancer, etc.

Second, the debate topic claims that MJ is the best pop singer ever -- it doesn't differentiate between male and female. So in terms of musical influence and prowess, MJ has some serious competition with Madonna (others as well, but Madonna being the most prevalent in this case).

Third, repeating "He just is." over and over might not be the best way to win votes on this site. Most participants are actually articulate, intelligent people who may not appreciate that style of debating.

Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
Black_L1ghtn1ng

Pro

To respond to your first point that being the best pop singer of all time does not necessarily mean he has the widest vocal range or most powerful voice. Being the best singer implies that his voice appeals to the most and widest range of people. Obivously we can see this through his album Thriller which has sold the most copies of all time around the world.

Obivously I meant that Michael Jackson is the best pop singer ever as I did not disinguish between male and female and as you provided no evidence to why Madonna is a better singer than MJ I will not respond to it.

And to your third point, suck it.

Vote Pro
Danielle

Con

You said it's "obvious" that MJ's voice appeals to the most and widest range of people based on the recod number of sales of the Thriller album. However, you cannot prove that people bought the album because they loved MJs voice. There are other reasons why people buy albums, for instance: the album's popularity, peer pressure, a present for others, etc.

Plus, "The world's best-selling album cannot be listed officially, since there is no international body to count global record sales ... Historical data before the 1980s and from developing countries are also incomplete. Information is also lacking for non-English language albums" (Source: Wikipedia).

I never said that Madonna was a better pop singer than MJ. I'm saying that she'd be a good challenger. Other prominent challengers would include John Lennon and/or Paul McCartney and Elvis Presley (The Beatles and Elvis were considered to be part of both the rock and pop genre) amongst others. Because Elvis and The Beatles have collectively sold more albums than MJ did with Thriller (assuming that Thriller really is the best selling album of all time), then... do you even have another argument?

Ps. You're really cool for saying "Suck it" at the end of a debate. That was a good one. Very original. Very intelligent.
Debate Round No. 2
Black_L1ghtn1ng

Pro

To reply to your first point that I can't prove that people bought the album because of Michael's voice. Why would you buy an album if you didn't enjoy listening to the songs on it. Even if an album is popular you don't buy an album just if you don't like listening to Micahel's voice. The same applies to peer pressure and even if these situations happened then they would have been only a minor portion of the people that bought the album. Also, for people who bought the album outside of the United States woudln't buy an album because it is popular in another country as in I doubt you've ever bought a an album from a singer in Japan because they are popular over there. To your last point that people would buy it as a present still means that they are buying the album for someone who likes Michael Jackson, still making him an amazing singer.

I think you misunderstood me when I said "Obivously we can see this through his album Thriller which has sold the most copies of all time around the world." I meant that Thriller was the best selling album and it has sold copies around the world, instead of being the world's best selling album. Also there is this also coming from your own source.

"Thriller is the best selling album of all time, though sales figures for the album vary between different sources who have cited the album as selling between 45 million copies worldwide to 104 million copies" - Wikipedia

Just stating that there are other good pop singers like Madonna or The Beatles isn't actually proving that they are better pop singers (or in The Beatles case a group) than MJ. And of course if you added up Elvis's albums with The Beatles they'd have more than MJ. Even if you did prove that Elvis actually sold more albums or actually stated a reason why he was a better singer than Michael, he is not of the pop genre, he is Rock n' roll, as his title is the King of Rock n' Roll.

"He recorded songs in the rock and roll genre, with tracks like "Hound Dog" and "Jailhouse Rock" later embodying the style" - Wikipedia

Since you haven't given any reason why Michael Jackson isn't the best pop singer of all time other than suggesting that not all of his records were sold because people liked his voice or stating that there were some other good pop artists, then this ballot of this debate should obviously be Pro.

P.S. - Suck it was just a joke and I apoligize for only trying to reach the 100 word limit in my first round.
Danielle

Con

I can rip your entire basis of "proof" that MJ is the 'best' to shreds in just one paragraph (I'll get to that later), but first:

1. Pop Music: music of general appeal to teenagers; a bland watered-down version of rock'n'roll with more rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love (Source: Dictionary.com)

2. Pop Music: the term indicates specific stylistic traits such as a danceable beat, simple melodies, and repetitive structure so that people can catch on and join in easily (Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop music)

3. "In contrast to genres with clear origins and a traceable evolution, pop developed, and continues to expand, as a haphazard merging of styles. Pop is an amalgam of successive fashions, of elements of many differing styles that have been successful over the years and have ended up incorporated into the genre." (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...)

Based on these definitions - including the 'official' definition, a large array of artists and groups all fall into the pop genre whether we recognize it as such or not. Thus an artist like Elvis IS considered a pop artist. Yes it is true that he paved the way for Rock-N-Roll as did Lennon and McCartney with the Beatles. But paving the way for a new genre doesn't negate a type of music from being part of another. My point is that even if Elvis' album was listed under the Rock-N-Roll heading at a CD store, according to the DEFINITION of pop music, Elvis was and is pop. Not to mention the fact that 'pop' is short for the term POPular, and obviously Elvis, The Beatles, etc. were all very popular artists!

HERE'S THE PARAGRAPH THAT MAKES YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT INVALID: Your #1 'source' of proof that MJ is the best is based on the fact that the Thriller album is (allegedly) the best selling album of all time. However, MJ is not the best selling artist of all time. In fact, some lists don't even put him in the top 15! So even though a particular album may have been extremely succesful, your bold comment of MJ being the 'best pop singer' assumes that you are talking about his entire music career and not just the explosion of one particular album. AND, even if people don't agree that people like Elvis are in fact pop music, I'm sure no one would refute an artist like Madonna being considered pop... and she's sold more albums world-wide (Source: http://www.riaa.com...). Plus, there are sources that do in fact recognize Elvis as being a pop star, such as POPDIRT.COM (http://popdirt.com...).

Anyway, you mentioned that I didn't provide any reasons why Michael Jackson ISN'T the best pop singer of all time. If an actual list is what you're looking for (even though you yourself did not provide one), here goes:

1. Michael Jackson is not the best-selling pop artist of all time, even if his album Thriller may (or may not) have been the most popular.

2. Michael Jackson does not have the most number one hits, even amongst pop stars. For instance, Mariah Carey has 17. Madonna also tops MJ in this area, amongst many others.

3. In terms of consecutive number one hits, even a much lesser known group like Westlife tops MJ.

4. You cannot prove that Elvis (I'm singling him out, but I could list a number of people) is not a pop star, whereas I CAN prove that he WAS a pop star based on the definition of pop music, and other verifiable sources.

5. Your basis of MJ being the best SINGER is the number of album sales for Thriller; however, you couldn't really make an argument verifying MJ's superirority in terms of vocal ability.

6. Elvis, Madonna, Elton John, The Beach Boys... I could go on and on. And though Michael Jackson DEFINITELY belongs amongst the top pop artists of all time, he may not be the BEST pop *singer* of all time. And! Even if he IS the best pop singer of all time, my opponent's arguments were clearly lacking and did not do a good job of proving that he was, therefore giving me the win of this debate. So remember to vote based on articulation and the presentation of facts vs. opinion. Thanks!
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Avatar7777777 4 years ago
Avatar7777777
I just don't think you can prove that an artist was the greatest at anything. In other arenas, such as sports and the sciences, there is a set of rules and skills that defines how good someone was at something. In art, however, there are none of those rules. Art is relative to the individual to the audience and the artist him or herself. There can't be a single greatest artist of anything. It's an oxymoron.
Posted by Katerina 5 years ago
Katerina
I vote for PRO!!none of the debtors have proved their point and the reason that I gave my vote to PRO is because of my strong personal believe that Michael Jackson is indeed the best pop singer ever, judging by the single fact that Michael Jackson has broken racial briers meaning that he truly does appeal to everyone which in turn would make him most popular also as said by CON that POP is a short form of popular what pop music is about in first place anyway.
Posted by bacon 6 years ago
bacon
this is stupid MJ is the best Pop singer isnt it obvious the COn is wrong.
1. how do u prove Thriller is not the best selling it is widley accepted as it. the minimum # of sales are more than any album to date. It si also in the guinuess book of world records.
2. He was musics first billionare
3. Vocally u cant deny listening to songs like Billie Jean Human Nature Don't stop till u get enough (wicked falsseto) He is one of the greatest singers EVER.
4. He inspired a real generation Madonna has influenced a lot less people than Michael i mean u dont hear 2days great aritsist saying i am inspred by madonna.
5. Elvis records cant be counted and he even stole many of his move from the artist of his generation.
6. your r wrong and Madonna can barely sing she has like what 5 notes she is good at. and Michael does belong as one of the best but as the best. He didnt only do pop music he did rock soul/r&B and funk. He was the most diverse mos influential.
7.He has been entertaining since the 60's and still has die hard fans. Unfortuantely th Pro side didnt kno enough to take u on but ur facts are all in the air and wrong MJ is one of if not the best pop singer.
8. wth is the elton john stuff u consider him a better singer u concider elvis a better singer seriously no
Posted by run-ons_maker 6 years ago
run-ons_maker
ha ha ha I nearly can't stop laughing especially for the first round and the end of black speech in round 2 any way did you know that wikipedia can't trust 100%! because any one can edit it!
Posted by Danielle 6 years ago
Danielle
Rousseau,

I thank you for the constructive criticism and for your thoughtful input. I will keep all of your points in mind for future debates.

However I disagree that the title of this debate infers a comparison, nor was I asked to provide one in the opening round (if that were the case, I surely would have chosen Elvis - not Madonna).

But since you offered the reasoning that I did not support another artist being a better singer than Michael, I wonder what you think about all of my (optional) comparisons to other arists, such as Elvis, Madonna, etc. Just because I did not "prove" that one singular artist is better than Michael does not mean that I disproved he his in fact the best based on the arguments my opponent put forth to claim that he WAS the best. I feel like the entire burden of proof rested upon the instigator. Keep in mind the title of this debate wasn't "Michael Jackson is a better pop singer than So-N-So" but rather the best pop singer in general.

Plus, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that such a bold statement of someone being the "best" could even be effectively argued... hmm... I'll have to think about it!
Posted by Rousseau 6 years ago
Rousseau
Alright, here's my comment.

TheLWerd, if you look at her post, really didn't bring up a whole lot of new stuff. She did go significantly more in-depth though, which creates the illusion of more points. Granted, even this trick is dirty (coming from a old policy debater), but you've got to realize there isn't a specific rule against it. IT's just a tad taboo. It's up to voters to decide whether or not to punish her.

However, I still think I'll vote for Pro. The title of the debate infers a comparison. Whereas if the title was "Michael Jackson sold the most records ever", then it would be a factual debate. However, the titles implies subjectivity, and therefore a comparison. Con did not back one single (or really any) artist/singer. Granted, she disproved many of Pro's points, but... that's not enough. Let me explain.

Even if we assume all of Pro's points are wrong, by the arguments IN THIS ROUND, Michael Jackson is still the best singer. For the very fact that he was the only singer backed up by any real arguments IN THIS DEBATE, Pro wins. Had Con presented another singer and said why this one was better, she may very well have got my vote.

However, just saying "MJ has some serious competition with Madonna (others as well, but Madonna being the most prevalent in this case)" would infer two things:

1. That Madonna is the biggest competition in the Pop Music category for MJ.

2. "serious competition" isn't an argument supporting her. It's opinion, and therefore trash.

So, that's my vote.
Posted by Black_L1ghtn1ng 6 years ago
Black_L1ghtn1ng
Sorry assuming you are a girl but you are completely lying about summarizing points from earlier. Only your 5th point was one that you brought up earlier in the debate and I did respond to your 3 points on vocal ability. You introduced almost all of your arguments in the last speech as I responded to all of the ones brought up in your second speech in my last speech. AND INTRODUCTING NEW IDEAS IN YOUR LAST ARGUMENT WHERE I CAN'T RESPOND TO THEM is not a rule but contradicts the moral of debate. For viewers of this deabate please don't just look at his last speech and since almost all his arguments were brought up there. Look at the entire debate and make your decision off of that.
Posted by Danielle 6 years ago
Danielle
Latina,

THERE'S NO RULE AGAINST INTRODUCING NEW IDEAS IN YOUR LAST ARGUMENT! Jeez - get a grip. The third round IS STILL PART OF THE DEBATE, so I don't know why you're asking voters to not include my points from the last round. It's not like I saved everything for the end; most of it was just a re-cap of everything I've already said prior anyway, with the exception of a few facts that there are no disputing to (i.e. the number of #1 hits that Mairah Carey had). Furthermore, my opponent only had ONE point (which wasn't even a FACT -- not to mention I ripped it apart in the debate anyway), whereas I had several SOLID points. My opponent and I both had equal amount of time to make our case -- mine just so happened to waste his entire turn by repeating one sentence. It's not my fault he's a lousy debater (or at least had a flawed approach during this sebate in particular!). And finally, I'M NOT A GUY. Just because my icon happens to be a black male (obviously from a cartoon) doesn't mean that I am a black male or in fact even a male at all. Rather, I'm 100% Italian and all female :P I just happen to love the Boondocks!
Posted by SexyLatina 6 years ago
SexyLatina
theLwerd, way to bring up EVERYTHING IN YOUR LAST SPEECH...

Guys, read the whole debate, and its ARGUMENTS. Pay no attention to what he brings up only in his last speech, as I'm sure that had it been brought up earlier in the debate, Black L1ghtn1ng would have had some response. Based on theLwerd's refutations of what Black L1ghtn1ing said in response to his attacks, I think Black L1ghtn1ng is arguably the winner.
Posted by Black_L1ghtn1ng 6 years ago
Black_L1ghtn1ng
You threw in so much stuff in your last speech that I can't even respond to it.
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Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 weeks ago
9spaceking
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Reasons for voting decision: Countering Danielle's votebomb for herself. 7-0 for herself. Opponent voted 5-2. Take it back because voting for yourself was apparently acceptable.
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Vote Placed by Danielle 4 years ago
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