The Instigator
DebateBehemoth
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
nyyfan
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant if they where both in there Prime

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
nyyfan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/6/2012 Category: Sports
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,945 times Debate No: 24087
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

DebateBehemoth

Pro

I will argue that Michael Jordan is overall a better player than Kobe Bryant if they where both at there prime
SEMANTICS:NO
TROLLING:NO I know they are the same
1 on 1 basketball
nyyfan

Con

I accept Kobe would beat Jordan in a 1 on 1 game of basketball.
Debate Round No. 1
DebateBehemoth

Pro

I would like to thank CON for accepting this debate I will not show there personal states
-
-
JORDAN BRYANT 6'6 6'6
215 POUNDS 205 POUNDS
-
-
OFFENSIVE END
JORDAN BRYANT
SCORING AVERAGE PER GAME (CAREER) 30.1 30.0
SCORING AVERAGE PER GAME (BEST SEASON) 37.1 35.4
ASSISTS PER GAME (CAREER) 5.3 4.6
ASSISTS PER GAME (BEST SEASON) 8.0 6.0
OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS (CAREEAR) 1.6 1.2
OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS (BEST SEASON) 2.0 1.6
-
-
DEFENSIVE END
JORDAN BRYANT
STEALS PER GAME (CAREER) 2.4 1.5
STEALS PER GAME (BEST SEASON) 3.2 2.2
BLOCK PER GAME (CAREER) 0.8 0.5
BLOCKS PER GAME (BEST SEASON) 1.6 1.0
REBOUNDS PER GAME (CAREEAR) 6.2 5.3
REBOUNDS PER GAME (BEST SEASON) 8.0 6.9
-
-
ACHIEVEMENTS
JORDAN BRYANT
NBA CHAMPIONSHIP 6 5
NBA MVP 5 3
NBA ALL STAR (#OF YEARS) 14 10
DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR 1 0
OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALS 2 0
I CHANGED SOME OF KOBE'S STATS TO THE LATEST STATS LIKE HIS MVP'S CHAMPIONSHIPS AND OTHER STATS
http://www.squidoo.com...



nyyfan

Con

I assume Pro meant that he WILL show THEIR personal STAT's

First I would like voters to neglect assists entirely because this is a one v. one situation. Also NBA championships and Gold medals should be neglected since these are team statistics. I will try and make the case that all statistics should be, if not ignored, taken with a grain of salt. Since basketball is a team game your statistics often are skewed based on your teammates and the other players who you had to play against. For example a case could be made that Jordan had better teammates and defense was much worse during his career than during Kobe's. If we must examine statistics let's examine this, Kobe Bryant has won five championships with Derek Fisher being the only consistency on all of those teams. Whereas Jordan had Scottie Pippen for all of his (an upgrade from Derek Fisher to say the least) and Rodman for three of them. For God's sake Jordan had the "dream team" for half of his championships. The closest Bryant ever came to that was Shaq, and that is a two player combo not a starting roster full of all-stars. With all of this said I would like to argue that Kobe was the "X" factor for the Lakers during their last five championships and Jordan was simply a product of his star studded environment (not to take anything away from him).

My second argument is that Kobe is a better shot creator. I will be referring to the following video -

1. At 37 seconds in Kobe shows off his famed fade away jumper, a shot surely not even Jordan could block.
2. At 1:50 Kobe blows by a defender before his man can even notice.
3. Look at the countless times defenders are draped on Kobe and he simply pull up over the top of them. Specifically at 3:15.

Unfortunately my youtube stopped working at 5 minutes in and I need to get this round posted before I have to get off the computer but you get the point. In one on one situations Kobe has proven himself time and time again. If you need more evidence of this watch any game from the Lakers last title and you will see Kobe single handedly make Paul Pierce look like a weak defender over and over again.
Debate Round No. 2
DebateBehemoth

Pro

I thank you for showing your side of the argument
-
I do accept that you will neglect the championships and assist stats b and the gold medals
I do not think that blocking should be taken by means a grain of salt because it is his personal accomplishments blocking people like shaq already shows you that he is a better blocker than Kobe
http://youtu.be...
http://youtu.be...
Plus at jordan's time the defense was much better with people like kareem abdul jabar,david robinson,Shaquille O'neal,and much much more great blockers and stealers
-
-
Kobe had not only shaq robert horry and alot more better players than Jordan had Jordan had Bj armstrong which had mental problems they had a center that only got 2 rebounds in 3 games Lakers they where the best team for 3 years in a row if I remember while Jordan had pippen alone so Jordan did alot to make the bulls one of the greatest teams ever known at that time
-
-
Jordan and the Bulls did not have any where near the dream team if they had the dream team they would have had charles , kareem , shaq , and alot more great players that Jordan had to face Jordan and Pippen was called the dynamic duo while Kobe had shaq horry and alot more better players that the bulls had
-
-
1.The so called famed fade away jumper was copied from Jordan and Jordan has blocked people before 7 foot people jumping in fact so you cannot be sure he cannot block that plus the defender did nothing to contest that shot
2.Ahhhm the guy did see him and kobe has done faster but Jordan has been even faster he was able to pull a jumper off larry bird do you know who larry bird is
3.Look at the countless times Jordan has crossovered fast opponents blocked 7 footers and has stollen 3 ball possesion and made 9 points in no less than 30 seconds
-
-
Jordan has been proven to be the top 3 greatest basketball players of all time BIRD JOHNSON JORDAN
While Kobe is still on his way Kobe has been playing in the NBA one year longer than Jordan but still JORDAN BEATS him in almost all aspect pointing to personal stats like blocks rebounds and steal so in a 1on1 match Kobe will be not out classed but will not win Kobe also says it himseld he got his skills from Jordan himself which means Jordan knows his own moves and can do it better especially if he was younger
HIS TALENT EXCEEDS KOBE
http://youtu.be...
http://youtu.be...
http://youtu.be... kobe calls jordan a goat (greatest of all time)
Old Jordan beats kobe in 1 on 1 this is 39 year old Jordan versus kobe in his prime
http://youtu.be...
nyyfan

Con

Alright I will thank my opponent for hearing out my argument. However I do have to place issue with him saying that defenses were better when Jordan played, he did list a handful of great defensive players but teams as a whole now play much better defense against much better athletes. The sport is more popular (due in large part to Jordan I will admit, although that has nothing to do with his individual skills) and therefore there is more competition to play forcing players to play at a higher level than seen in previous decades. I am not referring to simply the great players but instead every player on the floor.

I will concede that Jordan is a better blocker than Bryant. You need to be in position to block a shot though and Bryant being the great shot creator he is would make it awfully hard on Jordan. If you don't want to buy into Kobe's fadeaway I will give you another unstoppable move that is in his repertoire, his pump fake and pivot move(1). This move would surely keep Jordan's blocking at bay since he would need to account for Kobe's pump fake. Kobe gets on his tip toes during this move making it nearly impossible to tell whether or not he is pulling up and therefore forcing defenders to jump or suffer the consequences of him scoring right in their face.

As far as Kobe calling Jordan the greatest, that is a no brainer thing for Kobe to say. It would be narcissistic to say that he is the greatest and no one else aside from Jordan compare. What is far more significant is Jordan saying that Kobe deserves comparison to himself (for Jordan, being a notoriously petty man, this is a huge compliment)(2).

My final argument for this round is that Kobe Bryant has a greater will to win than Michael Jordan. Kobe has fought through injuries that would have ended careers and others that would have sat players out for long stretches but he never gives up, the same way he didn't this year while taking cortisone shots in his shooting hand (making it numb during game time) and putting up three consecutive 40 point efforts. This season he also dragged his team through the first round of the playoffs. Jordan on the other hand continues to make horrible GM decisions either due to low basketball IQ or just indifference to Charlotte winning, albeit this is not directly his basketball character it does say something about his character as a whole.

1.http://www.onemanfastbreak.net...
2.http://aol.sportingnews.com...
Debate Round No. 3
DebateBehemoth

Pro

At some point the defense in Jordan's era is much better
I do agree that the new generations are becoming better trying to beat the likes of Jordan Bird And Johnson but what we are talking about is Jordan's personal defense which was way beyond his time The first block ever made was Bill Russel and ever since then the defense picked up and went to another level in Jordan's time which can be compared to the type of defensive players play now So Jordan and almost every team in his time put great defense and enough defense to tie or beat the defense our players are playing now the great defensive team now are Oklahoma city thunder,Miami Heat,and few more other team and still not even half of the teams today are great defensive teams Miami Heat on of the greatest defensive teams now give 95 points average per game.as you will see here the greatest defenders off all time are in Jordans time
http://bleacherreport.com...
-
-
The good thing about Jordan you never see him falling for fakes if he did can you show me and jordan is a very good blocker so good that you never see him coming to block you so if he pump fakes (which does not reach his tip toes Wade has the best pump fake and he does not reach his toes)Jordan will be able to catch him also have you seen how high Jordan Jumps he can block Kobe if he was going to layup via board block Also Jordans fadeaway is also an unstoppable move
2 links 1st Jordan jumps higher than Kobe and the top 1 dude can jump as high as Jordan 2nd Phil jackson which trained both jordan and kobe admits that Kobe is no where near Jordan's abilities
http://bleacherreport.com...
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com...
-
-
Jordan only feels comfortable with Kobe comparing to him But Jordan is a much much greater player than Kobe as in my last link
-
-
I remember Kobe only having 2 injures the index finger and his face which does not end careers Jordan every game played as his hardest he was going dehydrated because playing so hard Jordan is a great player not a great gm we are not taking about Old jordan We are talking about Prime Jordan the Jordan that can dunk from the free throw line and he almost dunked from the 3 point line but missed by 2 inches Kobe cannot compare Jordan is overall faster and is a better shot creater than Kobe Jordan can do things that nobody has done for years now and nobody came close Jordan also shoot better then kobe which gives him the big advantage in this 1 on 1 battle while Kobe usually always shoot from the outside that is the reason why Kobe is 85 percent in the 3 point line and Jordan is 84 cause Jordan is a better post ,paint and outside shooter he also Kobe is not yet near what talent Jordan had Myabe if Kobe finds the will to play more than 20 years he might have the stats but not the talent
Jordan beats Kobe in Blocks
Jordan beats Kobe in Steals
Jordan beats Kobe in shooting
Jordan beats Kobe in Heart
Jordan beats Kobe in Rebounding
Jordan beats Kobe in Jumping
Jordan beats Kobe in Dunking
Jordan beats Kobe in Clutch shooting
Kobe beats Jordan in Three point shooting by 1 percent
WHICH CLEARLY PROVES JORDAN WILL WIN
JORDAN IS A BETTER SCORER
http://bleacherreport.com...
nyyfan

Con

1. "we are talking about is Jordan's personal defense which was way beyond his time" I was actually talking about the defensive efforts against him being the reason he scored more than Kobe. Of course games have higher scoring now because just as defense continually gets better the overall scoring ability of players across the league gets better too. Also, you are incorrect in your assertion about the ppg for defenses today, the three best defenses this year were Chicago (giving up 88 ppg), Boston (89 ppg), and Philadelphia (89 ppg)[1]. That is pretty low if you ask me.

2. That is pretty bold saying Wade has a better pump fake than Kobe, we can save that for a different debate. If you watched the video he does in fact get on his tip toes and comes back down during his fake. Now for the Kobe faking out Jordan. I will be referencing the video now . At 0:45 Kobe blocks Jordan's fadeaway... I thought he could jump higher than Kobe. At 1:05 Kobe shoots right over the top of Jordan... I though Jordan would block him. At 1:47 Kobe beats him with the turnaround Jumper. You get the point, this was a young immature Kobe who had barely cracked the surface of his NBA career too.

3. Kobe has had knee problems throughout his entire career beginning in 2003 when he had his first knee surgery. He went to Germany in 2011 to have an experimental surgery to fix the issue [2].

4. Now that I have disputed just about every logical statement you made that could be disputed it should be difficult for you to say that Kobe could not beat Michael in a 1 on 1 matchup.

[1] - http://www.nba.com...
[2] - http://espn.go.com...
Debate Round No. 4
DebateBehemoth

Pro

As Jordan grew older more new players and defenders tried there best ofcourse to put more attention when facing Jordan they were trying to prove that they can beat Jordan so they put more defense on him Kobe and the defenders tried but whenever he drives to the rim nobody can stop him anymore he even made shots while falling down which means he was really well defended but was just to good he even made fade aways and jump shots against Kobe he also drove past and made a layup with 2-3 people defending him.Plus as you said scoring has improved over the years but before even Jordan Wilt chamberlain and Bill Russel reported in the news makes 8 blocks every game which means NBA has already a defensive structure it then grew even more so when Jordan came and as you can see how good a defensive team Chicago was with Jordan only making Lakers shoot 49 points before the end of the 3rd quarter
-
-
I did not see such a thing of him being able to fake with his tip toes A fade away leans you away from the basket which Kobe can lean on to with his high jumping vertical jumping is different from the ability to Jump high with a fade away that is way they called it Jump shot I could also not see Kobe touching the ball all I can see is him tapping Jordan's hand which affects a shot alot............Kobe was able to shoot over Jordan cause Jordan did not even bother contest the shot which proves my statement that Kobe is not a front on defender..........Kobe was able to do the fade away jumper once and did not have the ability to do it again at this time (2000-2002) Kobe has already played in the all star game (1998) which means he has started his Nba career while at this time Jordan has just retired (1999) then came back he did not play for 1 year and a half before this game and also at this time he is 4 years away from retiring for the final time whil Kobe is already in his 3-4 years already having all star games.With out Jordan Chicago only made 55-27 and the next season without Jordan they where only able to get 31-31 in the mid or march.Than at the year Kobe was a new player (1996-1997) they set a record of 72-10 ( IF YOU ARE GETTING CONFUSED WITH HIS RETIREMENT YEARS I WILL POST THE LINK)
http://en.wikipedia.org...
-
-
Jordan also got injured it cost him 64 games while Kobe's injury seemed to not affect him much
-
-
I by no means tried to say that Kobe will losee but Jordan will win you get me what I was trying to say Kobe has a chance but Jordan at hi prime is just to fast and can jump higher and have you read my link Jordan can jump a vertical leap of 4 feet which Kobe is no where near Jordan can just keep on dunking of Kobe while Kobe settles for Jumpshots Kobe is an outside shooter but still Jordan beats him with scoring and averages
Jordan will win in a 1 on 1 matchup If this was the 3peat los angeles versus the 3 peat Chicago Kobe has a bigger chance But Jordan is jut to quick for Jordan all your videos are useless since Jordan and Kobe has not faced at there prime and still Jordan leaves Kobe in the dust everytime they meet Jordan also held the record for most block and steals in a season 100 blocks 200 steals
SO MY CONCLUSION JORDAN WILL IN THIS 1 ON 1 BATTLE
nyyfan

Con

I will use the final round to explain why you should vote con

1. Who had better conduct? - This I will leave to the voters, I hope both myself and my opponent were seen as respectful and I don't believe either of us breached any rules so I would prefer a vote for tie here.
2. Who had better spelling and grammar? - I am sure it can be agreed I won this round, I do not believe I had any spelling or grammar mistakes and my opponent had numerous.
3. Who had more convincing arguments? This is once again up to the voter but since my opponent bears the burden of proof and I made a solid case for Kobe and disputed his claims for Jordan I believe this vote should go to me as well. After my disputes the only claims my opponent could make is that Jordan can jump higher and run faster... I concede that Jordan would win a track meet but we are talking about basketball which is a skill sport, the skills of which I have shown Kobe has perfected.
4. Who used the most reliable sources? This could be voted a tie, my opponent used more sources thus cross referencing his information but I believe I used the more reliable sources so vote as you see fit.

Overall I hope the voters recognize that the overall win should go to Con, I would like to finish by thanking my opponent for a good debate I only wish I had more time to use on some of my rounds (I'll tell my boss that work is getting in the way of my debating lol) I look forward to more good debates from Pro.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by inferno 5 years ago
inferno
Yes, Jordan is better than Kobe. He has a better clutch, permimeter shooting, fastbreak, high jumping, game than Kobe. He won the dunk contest twice, and was a college basketball champion.
Posted by alto2osu 5 years ago
alto2osu
*were
*their
Posted by nyyfan 5 years ago
nyyfan
So you are saying this is strictly a 1 on 1 matchup? I'll accept if you change "youth" to prime.
Posted by stubs 5 years ago
stubs
What does youth mean? 10yrs old? High school? Early nba career?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by TheOrator 5 years ago
TheOrator
DebateBehemothnyyfanTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's argument that you cannot use team statistics put Pro's argument off-balance.