The Instigator
ReganFan
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
94 Points

Michael Moore Hates This Country

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 18 votes the winner is...
Danielle
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/8/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,199 times Debate No: 9640
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (18)

 

ReganFan

Pro

I would like to provide some definitions:
Michael Moore: American film-maker, director of sicko and capitalism: a love story.

It has become apparent through Michael Moore's films that he hates the constitution and would love to see america become a socialist European country.
Danielle

Con

My opponent has failed to present any adequate arguments supporting his claims. Nowhere in any of his films does Michael Moore say that he hates America. In fact, he has gone on the record saying the opposite:

"Michael Moore hates America? Everything I do is because I love America!" [1]

Pro has not proven that M.M. wants America to become a Socialist country; disagreeing with some aspects of capitalism doesn't mean that you support socialism necessarily. Moreover, even if he did support socialism in America, that doesn't prove that M.M. hates this country but instead that he'd rather see it go in a different direction. Just because one may have an alternate view on political or economic philosophy doesn't mean that they have malicious sentiments towards the U.S. Pro has failed to prove otherwise.

Source:
[1] http://www.imdb.com...
Debate Round No. 1
ReganFan

Pro

I love America. That's why it has to be destroyed. So that it can come to its senses. - Micheal Moore[1]

Sources:
[1] http://www.imdb.com...
Danielle

Con

Pro's own cited quote proclaims that Michael Moore loves America. Wanting a country to "come to its senses" doesn't mean that you hate the country, the same way a parent wanting their child to learn a lesson doesn't mean that the parent hates the child.
Debate Round No. 2
ReganFan

Pro

He openly admitted he wants the country destroyed
Danielle

Con

As the instigator and the affirmative, Pro's job in this debate was to prove that Michael Moore hates this country (America). My opponent has only mentioned that Michael Moore has made films and opposed capitalism. Neither of these things prove Pro's point. Additionally, Pro cited Michael Moore stating that he loves America. I provided an additional source noting the same sentiment expressed by Moore himself. I've also explained how just because one might disagree with something's values or behavior doesn't necessarily mean that they hate that thing. If anything, M.M's efforts and activism can be attributed to the fact that he does not hate this country, and thus is trying to help this country achieve his ideal of success for what he believes to be the common good. Even if he's going about it the wrong way, his intentions are good, and thus the resolution affirmative is not sustained.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 7 years ago
RoyLatham
Moore says, "I love this country, that's why it has to be destroyed." That's a challenge to parse. I think t means, "I love the land and the people, but hate the way they are organized into a country." One might compare it to right-winger saying, "I love the land and people of Cuba, but I hate the way they are organized into a country." However, America, unlike Cuba, is a democracy. Moore is pretty thoroughgoing in expressing hatred for almost every aspect of what democracy has done to define America as a country. He admires the people, but obviously views them as way too stupid to govern themselves. He loves them way a parent loves an infant, as darling inferiors. I think the resolution is therefore true, but of course ReganFan didn't do much to argue the case.

Moore strikes me as pleasant and well-intentioned, and makes some good jokes. He is a smart propagandist, using lies gracefully. Unlike most leftists he avoids the perpetual condescension that infects the species. All of those good characteristics are irrelevant to the resolution.
Posted by philosphical 7 years ago
philosphical
pro and con both have good points. However, unlike Con, Pro failed to back up any of his arguements. Debates like this, that are shortened and deemed careless by the instigator are quite frustrating
Posted by simpleton 7 years ago
simpleton
That's a given.

I assume he meant that MM hates the conclusion that follows from the values America is founded on. It seems that without establishing that, it's impossible to prove anything because the word "America" is slippery.

Without that, a meeting of the minds never occurs and, therefore, no argument can exist.
Posted by brittwaller 7 years ago
brittwaller
That possibly could have helped.

However, an actual argument would have carried the most weight.
Posted by simpleton 7 years ago
simpleton
Should Pro have defined "love" and "country" initially?
Posted by Danielle 7 years ago
Danielle
Thanks, guys, I appreciate the comments. I actually don't think that Michael Moore is a TOTAL quack. He's just misguided. I loved his recent Capitalism movie even though a lot of it was BS. He's well-intentioned IMO. He needs to study a little bit of history, philosophy and economics instead of just politics. They're all connected anyway.
Posted by brian_eggleston 7 years ago
brian_eggleston
I can't vote but all points would go to theLwerd if I could.

I agree with the point she made about people not accepting the status quo and wanting something better for their country do so because they care about their nation. If they didn't love it, they would do nothing about the problems it faces and move abroad.

Not just in America, but in most countries, reformists are too often labelled as 'unpatriotic' by conservative commentators who are too lazy or narrow-minded to address their arguments head on.

Well done theLwerd for standing up and being counted (although I know you are never afraid of that).
Posted by brittwaller 7 years ago
brittwaller
All to CON, obviously. lol @ sherlockmethod's comment.
Posted by Chuckles 7 years ago
Chuckles
did anyone else notice that the pervert from Observe and Report looked a lot like Michael Moore?
Posted by sherlockmethod 7 years ago
sherlockmethod
Easy win for Con, but ReganFan is not here to present solid arguments. He is Sadolite with less to say...which is sad.
18 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by thejudgeisgod 7 years ago
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