The Instigator
left_wing_mormon
Con (against)
Winning
25 Points
The Contender
FalseReality
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points

Michael Moore lied in his movie "Bowling for Columbine"

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/3/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 8,876 times Debate No: 3892
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (14)

 

left_wing_mormon

Con

I have heard that Moore lies in his movies. Farheniheit 9-11, Roger and Me, and Bowling for Columbine always seem to get the most flack. So this debate is dealing with the claims made in his movie "Bowling for Columbine", a film in which Michael Moore dives into the gun violence in America.

So, did he lie? My opponet can tell me, then I will defend Michael Moore.
FalseReality

Pro

Now, I'll say this right now, I like what Mikey's trying to support in his movies. Banning guns, national health care, its all good by me.

But yes, he hasn't been totally scupulous when it comes to actually making the movie.

The biggest example of him lying in Columbine is the bank part.
I'm sure you remember. He goes to a bank, gets an account, and they hand it to him, where he leaves waving the gun victoriously.

Here's the truth behind it

Yes, people who signed up for the bank got the gun.

But they had to go through a month long background check, and the supposed vault with all the guns was not at that particular bank, but one in another city.

What Michael did was not just walk in and get it. Instead, he and his people made prearrangments and where very particular in asking that a gun be there for Moore to take away that one day.

So the end result is a clip making it look like bankers just handed out guns whilly nilly every time someone signed up that day.

All this information came straight from an interview with the bankers after the movie was released.

Another is with the Charlton Heston part. Heston came to Denver, but not for a gun rally, or any huge public appearance. If I recall correctly it was about voting or something. But not a rally. Anyway, the clip of the gun rally 'in Denver' was from something completly different.

Those are the two I'm aware of. I'm sure there's more, and I research them for round 2.
Debate Round No. 1
left_wing_mormon

Con

You know, when I started this debate I was really looking forward to some sources from my opponent. Oh well, I guess his claims don't need sources.

#1: The Bank giving guns to people who open accounts

http://www.michaelmoore.com... << This is the ad for the "More Bang for your Buck" promotion that appeared in the spring of 2001. To quote from an article from the Chicago Sun Times article which touched upon this very subject about this very bank: "North Country Financial Corp. is exchanging firearms for deposits, giving away rifles and shotguns in lieu of the interest that normally accompanies accounts." Here is an article from Time Magazine: (http://www.time.com...)So it is a fact that the bank was "giving away" guns when someone opens an account, so the scene wasn't staged. Michael Moore, in the movie, is seen filling out the required forms for the back round check. Moore wrote about this in a letter posted on his website: the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database—which includes all federally approved gun dealers—lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).

#2: Heston Comes to Denver
Well this is interesting, I actually have never heard anyone say he didn't bring his gun rally to Denver after the shootings. In fact the entire transcript of his visit to Denver can be found right here: http://www.michaelmoore.com...

The sad fact is, Heston came to Denver just 10 days after the shootings at Columbine to address the members of the NRA. Yes other meetings were scheduled to go on, but the headliner of the event was the NRA president Mr. Heston.

I am glad to address the other complaints about the movie. Two claims down, how many more?
FalseReality

Pro

Well I apologize. My sources come from the fil "Manufacturing Dissent", where you see a live interview with the bankers and get the facts on Heston. You can see more examples where Moore has stretched the truth, and many counts where Moore has constantly denied interviews with the crew, and kicked them of sites where he is making public appearances. Also, your sources are not all that impressive since they are from Moores site, which of course means that if he's lying on the screen he would very well lie on his website. And the other one only says the bank gave away guns, which I admitted they did. The issue on hand is how they do it. If you can find sources outside of his information that would help you greatly

So on the bank. They did give guns aay but not like how it shows in the movie. That was made to look like it could happen within days. The check was submitted a month before, not on that day and approvedwithin minutes. Also, only 1 gun was on the bank site, the one Moore got, and only per special request to have it be there on that day, even though there is a ten day waiting period (http://www.opinionjournal.com...)
So what you see is a set up. If Moore had come on the spotlike a regular person, you would have seen him fill out the paper work, and be told that after a thourough background check had been performed, he would get the gun after 10 days. Rather, he did this process before, in order to cut the film to look like you could get it the same day.

On Heston: He had an annual NRA meeting, which had been planned before Columbine. Moore makes it out to look as though Hestons rally was done specifically to address Colmbine, when it had nothing to do with it. (http://www.hardylaw.net...) Also, his speech is take out of context, including on part that he did not say in Denver, but in New York.(http://www.hardylaw.net...). So he had a NRA annual meeting, not a rally in responce to Columbine.

So these two claims stand. He lied by altering the truth. The Gun Bank was skewed, and Hestons rally was skewed.
Debate Round No. 2
left_wing_mormon

Con

My sources are from Michael Moores website, but what is on those links I posted? #1: http://www.michaelmoore.com... This is just a picture of the ad "More Bang for your Buck". #2: http://www.michaelmoore.com... This is only the complete text of Hestons speech, this is nothing that Michael Moore wrote or said. So My sources form Moores website aren't his words that he can lie and twist around, the sources are nothing more than the official words of Heston himself and a picture.

Your sources...The Washington Journal? The ultra right-wing paper? Don't question my sources when you are using biased sources as well. To proove how reliable Hardy is (The right-wing tool you cited), here is one of the sources he "quotes": http://www.lfcnews.com... Now in this article Hardy says he quotes from it, he writes "it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy." But in the article that Hardy cites, well, this line he wrote isn't found in the article at all.

Anyway I would like to address the Heston thing first. I read many places on the web that Moore tried to tie the clip of Heston saying "From my cold, dead hands!" in with the speech in Denver, but the fact is Heston never said that line at Denver. Sounds like Moore is lying right? Well, wrong. Moore addressed this claim in the letter I mentioned in my reponse above. He writes: "As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image – hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media" Also, I know and Moore knows that the event for the NRA was pre-planned before the Columbine shootings, but Heston could have cancelled in respect for those who were shot. Instead, he mocked the mayor's letter, the one that read: "Please don't come, you're not wanted here..."

And the bank thing. Listen, I still don't have any sources from you on this subject. I'm sure the bank will say anything to help climb out of this hole they dug themselves into, but even so, you haven't provided the evidence. The only reason why I don't believe the bank on this is because first off: Bad Press. Secondly, he filled out the required forms at the bank, if he "pre-ordered" the gun then why didn't anybody say "Oh right, Michael Moore, your gun is waiting in a box back here..." Instead he went in, opened the account, filled the backround check application, and they handed him a gun. By the way, why would the bank willingly stage a scene that would make them look bad?

So two claims. This is my closing statements so I want all voters to acknowledge that I won't be able to respond to any further criticisms my opponet may lay out there.

These are the best that my opponet could come up with in 2 rounds. I answered them using the facts provided. Many will vote here merely because of their personal convictions and not the argument itself. Well, until next time, Thanks to my opponet and for the debate.
FalseReality

Pro

My sources are just as credible as yours, I merely suggested it would be better if you got information that wasn't from Moore's site, which would possibly be skewed, supposing he is lying. That addresses the first two paragraphs.

Moore made Heston look as though he was intentionally trying to hurt the people of Colorado by coming after Columbine. What really happened is he attended a rally he had planned on attending already, even before the tragedy. And you really think Heston would have cancelled? Do any corporate big whigs simply cancel an event they put money into out of respect? I'm not saying Hestons actions were good, I;m arguing that Moore lied about it. Which he did. If you've seen the movie, you know that it is intentionally made to make Heston look as though he wanted the rally to be after Columbine. The simple truth is he didn't. The Rally's date and the Columbine shootings just happened to parallel each other. If Hestons a jerk for mocking the mayors letter then thats his own problem, but Moore still lied, which is what the topic is about.

Next, I'm guessing you didn't read the article, so here's a clipping of it about the bank

[Forbes reports that an early scene in "Bowling" in which Mr. Moore tries to demonstrate how easy it is to obtain guns in America was staged. He goes to a small bank in Traverse City, Mich., that offers various inducements to open an account and claims "I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, I walked out with my new Weatherby," a rifle.

But Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore's film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. "What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing," she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period," she says. Ms. Jacobson feels used: "He just portrayed us as backward hicks." ] So this is one source, along with the movie I mentioned "Manufacturing Dissent" with a live interview. I did provide the evidence, you ignored it.

His filling out papers, the check writing, and the call were staged. Completly prearranged. Why they did it should be obvious: Moore didn't tell them what he was really going to do with the footage. They were probably under the impression it would be advertising. So while the bank gave out guns, they didn't just "give them out". People had to have a background check, and needed to be on a ten day waiting list. Moore and his crew arranged for it to look like a 15 minute process when it wasn't. Thats called lying.

The premise is "did Moore lie in Bowling for Columbine?" and I've shown that twice he did. There are other counts I'm sure, one I just found out about was the missle silo. But the two I gave are the most talked about ones. Hestons rally was skewed to look more malicous-intended than it was, and made a bank look like they just handed out high power rifles. Both of these are false, so Moore did lie in Bowling for Columbine. Since this is a fact based debate, and I've actually given the facts, the outcome should be clear. If you want to do further research you can, I would suggest doing it for any and all documentaries you watch so you can get the facts from the fiction, and visa versa. However, as I've shown Moore did lie, which means I've prooved my premise to be true. K bye.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Falsereality, I'd like to apologize for delaying that debate I proposed we do much earlier, but I am ready to do it. Please post at the place we had talked about it to confirm the details.
Posted by left_wing_mormon 9 years ago
left_wing_mormon
"I'm not saying Hestons actions were good, I;m arguing that Moore lied about it."

That was Moores point. It did hurt the people who were some how connected to the events of Columbine. There wasn't a lie, Moore only depicted how the victims grieving families felt about Hestons visit to the city.
Posted by Pluto2493 9 years ago
Pluto2493
I just watched Sicko. It was pretty funny :)
Posted by Paradigm_Lost 9 years ago
Paradigm_Lost
In order for someone to debate you on this, it would require them to have in their possession the movie, and then to analyze the movie.

I've seen it, and I do remember quite a few distortions, but can't remember the particulars.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would debate you on this, however... I'm sure other prospective opponents might run in to this same problem. Instead you might to pick a couple of specific arguments and then challenge someone on that basis.

Just some food for thought.
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