The Instigator
Benshapiro
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
9spaceking
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Mikal is probably the best debater on this site

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
9spaceking
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/9/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 643 times Debate No: 52025
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

Benshapiro

Pro




First round is for arguments and/or rebuttals

Given the evidence, I can say that:



1) Mikal has the highest win/loss ratio of any debater. However, this doesn't take into account the skill level of his opponent, whether or not he instigated the debate, and the position of pro or con depending on the topic at hand. Taking this into consideration, wins don't mean as much depending on these factors.



2) BUT, Mikal has the highest elo rating of any debater. Here's the equation for Elo:

"W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W


And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25)." -rross.



Having the highest elo ranking means that his previous debates have been calculated against his opponent's skill level and takes into account whether or not he instigated the debate.



3) Mikal has the highest win percentage combined with total finished debates. Ragnar has a 100% win ratio but only 48 finished debates. Due to Mikal's larger sample size of finished debates, it is unknown whether Ragnar would be able to maintain a 163:1 win/loss ratio.



4) Mikal recently won a debate against RoyLatham over a very controversial political issue (the death penalty.) RoyLatham is 2nd only to Mikal in total elo. This means that Mikal has proven his ability by winning against a highy skilled and regarded member of DDO.



5) when I decide to browse the forums occasionally there is a post about the best debater on DDO. Usually Mikal is not mentioned. Mikal himself has never said that he is the best debater (despite the evidence that he probably is.) This was actually what inspired me to make this debate.



6) Mikal never copy/pastes from his previous debates. Other highly regarded members of DDO (who are often considered the best) do copy/paste from their previous debates for the sake of improving their win/loss ratio on a heavily researched topic. Take BlueSteel's debates for example. Looking at his newsfeed we can see copy/pasted opening arguments in every debate that pops up. Mikal has never done this, although he has debated variations of a topic such as "god exists."



This is a non-serious debate and obviously whether I win or lose has no bearing on whether or not Mikal is probably the best debater on this site. Over to you, con!
9spaceking

Con

There are debaters better than or equal to Mikal on DDO.

Mikal in a PM with thett3 openly acknowledging that Bluesteel and Raisor are as good, if not better than he is:




Mikal's own testimony on his abilities is extremely reliable, as he knows better than anyone of his own abilities.
In addition, he has an extremely high elo means he won a lot a debates in comparison to the debates he lost, but he only has 164 debates in total. There are 16 debaters with more debates under their belt, thus, they have more experience. If Mikal had done, say, 200 more debates, his elo would more than likely decline and it would be seen he is not the good debater he is.
If you're still not convinced, I say this fact: Mikal is in the 99.97% percentile, an extremely impressive status. However, there are 5 people with higher percentages, and with imabench in the 100% percentile, the only person on DDO who managed this. Plus, imabench has over 500 debates! 164 debates is nothing in comparison, and imabench, with an impressive 80% win percentage and an elo of 4,241 (which is logical because imabench has so many debates), imabench can be seen as the true debating master.
Keep in mind that imabench has to do his troll job, keeping everyone happy with his Weekly Stupid and his massive popularity AND debate, while Mikal just has to debate.
It can also be concluded that imabench is the better multitasker. :P
Debate Round No. 1
Benshapiro

Pro

In my opening statement I said given the evidence . . . then I listed conclusions derived from this (objective) evidence. Again, most of my evidence is not subjective at all, but simply facts. I'll reiterate the objective facts in my conclusion. In addition, I said that Mikal is probably (not is) the best debater on this site based on the evidence.

I've actually seen Mikal's statement in your previous debate with thett3, and I thought you had a good rationale behind why Mikal might make that statement. It could've been said out of humilty or for many other reasons. It would be pretty egotistical for Mikal to state that he's the best if he actually is. I'm not even arguing that Mikal is the best but that he is probably the best. The fact that he believes he is or is not the best has no bearing on whether or not he actually is or isn't the best. Objective evidence is a better indicator of this.

"In addition, he has an extremely high elo means he won a lot a debates in comparison to the debates he lost, but he only has 164 debates in total. There are 16 debaters with more debates under their belt, thus, they have more experience. If Mikal had done, say, 200 more debates, his elo would more than likely decline and it would be seen he is not the good debater he is."-con

Elo score is based on a very specific formula:

"W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W


And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25)."

This means that the addition or subtraction of his elo score is based on the elo score of his opponent after winning or losing a debate. Having more debates does mean more experience, but you're falsely associating experiencing with skill level. If an MMA fighter has 163 wins - 1 loss, and another has 537 wins - 97 losses, who would you expect to win, assuming that they've fought equally-skilled opponents? You would expect the 163 win/loss ratio fighter to win against the 5.54 win/loss ratio fighter.

"If you're still not convinced, I say this fact: Mikal is in the 99.97% percentile, an extremely impressive status. However, there are 5 people with higher percentages, and with imabench in the 100% percentile, the only person on DDO who managed this. Plus, imabench has over 500 debates!"

This percentile has to do with a win/loss total difference, not a ratio of a total win/loss difference. This ratio of win/loss difference is more important and has better predictive power as to who would win a debate if paired against each other especially with a sample size of 100+ debates.

My opponent underestimates the importance of elo ranking, which takes into account the opponent's skill level and whether or not he has instigated the debate, and current elo scores show Mikal is 1st. I will re-iterate conclusions derived from the objective evidence mentioned in my opening statement:

1) Mikal has the highest win/loss ratio of any debater.

2) Mikal has the highest elo rating of any debater.

3) Mikal has the highest win percentage combined with total finished debates

4) Mikal recently won a debate against RoyLatham over a very controversial political issue (the death penalty.) RoyLatham is 2nd only to Mikal in total elo. This means that Mikal has proven his ability by winning against a highy skilled and regarded member of DDO.

This is all objective evidence showing that Mikal is probably the best debater on this site! Over to you, con!
9spaceking

Con

"Mikal is probably the best debater on this site"? I don't think so. He got beaten by Morality Professor once here: http://www.debate.org...;
In addition, although Mikal covers all the areas possible within debating, he has yet to cover troll debates, taking all his debates incredibly seriously. Sure, troll debates may seem irrespectful, immature, and random, but they are important to win, as the debater can learn how to win a dumb argument topic, or a biased topic, or a topic with warped logic. Imabench, on the other hand, is known for trolling, so obviously he wins all his troll debates.
Even if Mikal is the best serious debater in DDO he's not the best overall debater in DDO. The best overall debater is extremely versatile in any topic at all, even troll debates, and imabench manages to cover them easily.
In conclusion, Mikal isn't the overall best debater in DDO. He can't even "probably" be. After all, we know who rightfully really has that title--the man in the 100% percentile, the man who was (more than likely) the most popular of them all, who is leaving, who is....

imabench.
Vote con please.
Debate Round No. 2
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Benshapiro 2 years ago
Benshapiro
I never said he was. I said he probably is based on the evidence. The quality of each debate is a huge factor in determining who the best debater is but quality can't be quantitatively measured.
Posted by wordy 2 years ago
wordy
Well, Mikal is not the best debater here. Why don't you count Whiteflame, Raisor , Ahmed.M , Contradiction etc. Just because they have done less number of debates, doesn't mean they can't beat Mikal. Look at the quality of their debates.
Posted by Benshapiro 2 years ago
Benshapiro
Lol I don't think it's bad per se but it's more inventive and your odds of winning probably aren't as good if you make new arguments rather than copy/pasting the same heavily researched topics.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
I'm not really offended, just curious as to why that's bad.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
I'm offended. I copy paste my previous arguments.
Posted by Intrepid 2 years ago
Intrepid
There is nothing wrong with copy/pasting opening arguments, especially if the arguments do not need to be improved upon. Also, Mikal has copy/pasted arguments.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dtaylor971 2 years ago
dtaylor971
Benshapiro9spacekingTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The BoP was on pro, but con disproved his BoP by showing Mikal's own words stating that pro's BoP was wrong. Thus, there was no hope for pro to win this debate.