The Instigator
wingnut2280
Pro (for)
Winning
19 Points
The Contender
Patrick_Henry
Con (against)
Losing
17 Points

Mike Huckabee is an egoist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/14/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,065 times Debate No: 2640
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (8)

 

wingnut2280

Pro

Mike Huckabee is acting in his own interest by staying in the race. There is now no mathematical chance of him winning the nomination. Huckabee not dropping out proves he is simply staying in the race to either gain a VP bid with McCain, or further his own political career.

The concept of a brokered convention is out of the question. Huckabee is nearly as unpopular as McCain and no party will ignore the massively higher amount of delegates that McCain has amassed in comparison.

Please, anyone give me a reason that Huckabee is staying in other than to toot his own horn.
Patrick_Henry

Con

From our last debate, I gathered the impression that you really don't appreciate Mike Huckabee. I personally do not like Mike Huckabee either, but I don't think he is staying in the race to serve himself.

I hope you will excuse this long, and round about way of making the point I want to make.

I spent an awful lot of time with a Senator who is near the end of his seventh term during his bid for the Presidency. During both speeches and in private, the man always spoke with candor. His honesty with himself, and his honesty with the public is one of the few reasons why after 35 years in the Senate, he and his wife still bring home an income of less than 300,000 a year while she teaches full time at a University, and he teaches a weekend class at the University of Delaware.

In the time he spent with me he did as much as he could to confer one lesson. To the point where he would defend Barack Obama from my own slander. These people mean well. They might be doing things that we judge to be terrible, incompetent, or self serving, but in most of their minds they believe that they are doing good things for good reasons.

Governor Huckabee likely thinks that he is doing good things. He is not staying in the race to serve himself, he's staying in the race to serve his supporters. You complained in a past debate that Iowa gave him an unfair advantage, and I remarked that only 34% of Iowan Republicans supported him. He's staying in the race for that 34%.

The Coalition that used to define the Republican party is going through some massive upheavals at the moment. McCain does garner the support of a large portion of the coalition. Those that have based their views off of their religion typically find themselves supporting Huckabee. If Huckabee drops out, they'll lose their voice.

A funny thing happens to the closest supporters of a Presidential candidate when they drop out. Momentarily they lose hope. Hope in the system, hope in their country, and hope for the future. If someone knows that the candidate that they love and adore is considering dropping out, that supporter will do just about anything to convey how important that the candidate remains a candidate.

At this moment in the Republican Party, Mike Huckabee is the candidate of the religious fundamentalists. He is the center of that movement, which is something I'm sure he is aware of. If they wish to have a voice in their party, they need to show their strength. The way to do that is through Mike Huckabee. While it might be mathematically impossible for Huckabee to become the nominee through at the moment, Mike Huckabee can stop John McCain from receiving a majority and force the convention to technically be open, and force the Republican party to give his supporters a voice.

Mike Huckabee isn't doing this for himself, he is doing it for his supporters. He is doing what any decent politician tries to do, he is serving his people.

I'd be very surprised if he gets a VP nod. If that happens, someone is trying desperately to keep the Republican Coalition together.
Debate Round No. 1
wingnut2280

Pro

Your right, there is a constituency for Mike Huckabee. This doesn't mean that he needs to stay in the race for some arbitrary reason.

While I agree that it is unlikely that Huckabee recieves the VP bid from McCain. I do think that either the is disillusioned to this fact or that he is simply continuing to push his own political career.

Your point would be valid if there voice wasn't already lost. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Huckabee to win. With Romney backing McCain and encouragin his delegates to do the same, that puts McCain a handful of delegates away from winning outright. The continuation of Huckabee's campaign is damaging to McCain's general election campaign, making it harder for Huckabee's supporters to get their voice out through a less representative median (mccain).

While it may seem that Huckabee is sticking it out for his folks, he is damaging their hopes of having even the most terrible of Republicans in office.

He is certainly aware that there is NO CHANCE of winning the presidency and that he is injury the party at this point. Thus, Romney attempts to deal the death knell in the hopes of giving at least a republican of some sort a chance.

To sum, Huckabee staying in is actually damaging to his constituency. He is aware of this, as it is all over the news and has to routinely refute it. Thus, Huckabee's only motivation is one of personal or professional gain.
Patrick_Henry

Con

I don't like explaining this, because I've never really considered myself as a party insider, and at the ripe young age of 24 it's a bit early to start thinking that way. My friends are all busy being "activists" and playing X-Box, and people call me to tell me I should run for U.S. House.

National conventions decided a whole lot more than your nation's president. It's where the national platform is constructed and ratified. In Iowa we have an open caucus system, which you detest, so I've actually been on platform committees at all levels of our party except for the national level. You'd be amazed at the type of stuff that people try to force off of the platform, or in some cases force onto the platform.

Due to the energy that arises from the Presidential race, the national convention years usually bring about a whole lot more involvement than in non-presidential years. So, if you want to change your party, do it in a so called "off year."

While it is very unlikely Mike Huckabee will be the President of the United States, the man is turning out a membership of the Republican party that would have no reason to turn out for McCain. By remaining in the race, he's allowing for the "Religious Right" to remain active in the party. He's allowing for his constituencies to remain involved in the party, and to influence the party.

This is actually good for your party. The religious right is a large portion of your turnout in several states that are key to a Republican victory. If you choose a candidate that does not reflect their values, then completely minimize their influence in the party, there's really not a whole lot of reason for them to turn out.

If the religious right abstains from this election as a point of protest because the national platform isn't strong enough on their issues, the election will be handed to the Democrats and there will be no hope of reestablishing the Reagan Coalition of Conservatives and your party will have to be redefined again.

Mike Huckabee staying in the race is not only about himself, its actually good for the Republicans in the long term.

Mike Huckabee has to stay in the race because 34% of the delegates to the county conventions in the state of Iowa need to be able to form into a Huckabee preference group and have at least 15% of the county delegates to send delegates to the state. If Huckabee drops out, guess what - those folks don't get to be delegates. He needs to stay in the race until at least July to ensure that the religious right that backed him can send their delegates to the national convention to ensure that they don't feel ignored by the party, and that their leadership doesn't decide to prove a point by not supporting the Republican nominee in the election to show how vital they are to the party.

What Mike Huckabee is doing is actually quite noble, and serves the Republican interests much more than people shouting for him to drop out. If you want to win this election, if you want to win any election, you need him to stay in the race.
Debate Round No. 2
wingnut2280

Pro

Your argument hinges on the fact that the religious right would become disenfranshised by Huckabee's dropping out. Everyone voting for Huckabee is, or should be, well and aware of the mathematical impossiblity of him winning. The party is well aware of the religious right as evidenced by McCain's floundering for their support and the constant focus of party nominees to appeal to religous and social conservatives.

Huckabee staying in further contrasts him as the religious candidate to McCain. This makes McCain less and less appealing to the religious sect of the party. Transitively, he loses support in the general, which he needs desperately.

I realize that Huckabee's delegates need to be sent to the convention, but them not going has little ramification in the face of further drawing the party divide, which Huckabee staying in does. The religious right is a main part of the party. That is undeniable. Showing how McCain isn't appealing to them is all Huckabee is doing by drawing distinctions.

Finally, why Huckabee? Why don't all candidates with decent delegate numbers do this if it is so critical? Romney had more delegates and had larger conservative support than Huck when he dropped out. If delegates were more critical than advancing the party in the election, why don't all candidates do what Huckabee is doing? Edwards for instance, was extremely passionate about his cause. Why not stay in in order to send his delegates?

In order to win the election McCain needs to appeal to the religious base. Huckabee standing there in contrast simply points out McCain's flaws and makes winning less likely.

Huckabee is trying to keep his name in the press in the hopes of a VP bid, though unlikely. Or, Huckabee is simply using this as a launch for next time or further political career moves.
Patrick_Henry

Con

I've explained how the party system works. Whether or not his winning is impossible, he still has a number of delegates from many states which will still give a voice to his supporters on the floor. Huckabee is a religious man. Religious men are given all sorts of Martyrs as role models. If he is going to be a political martyr for his people, good for him. He's likely not doing it because he's an egotist. Unless you want to call every person that assumes they have a special relationship with God, or carry a part of God's message with them, or God has a plan for them an egotist. Which, I'm actually fine with you doing that, but that's not why you're calling Huckabee an egotist. You're calling him an egotist because he's remained a candidate for President.

The religious right may not support McCain in the general. It is likely, however, that they will choose someone with a perfect record on being pro-life over a person that is decidedly pro-choice. If the McCain campaign, or the national party manages to gravely offend the religious right they actually might boycott the election. Snub the religious right, and they might just decide to pull one of those Ross Perot type of stunts, and remind the party exactly what their platform needs to be. Perot in 92 brought about a pledge from the Republicans in 94 that they would balance the budget. Granted, they just consented to the efforts of the Administration, and tried to take credit for it, but okay, the fiscal conservatives got their wish, and they lined up right behind Dole in 96, and the party's crisis was resolved.

Handle this wrong, and the Republican Party could throw away the 2008 election. A unified front now, nine months before the election won't bring about any more support in the general. The general will be won in the last three or four weeks of the election. Period. The public memory isn't that great, and the base is going to vote no matter what, unless you manage to clearly piss a large portion of it off. The funny thing about winning election is usually no one analysis why you said you won to see if it was true. Carl Rove will say, "We won because we turned out the base!" which can't be true in an election with record turnouts for both parties. It does, however, make it appear as if your party was superior, or at the very least that your challengers were inferior, and couldn't even turn out their base to win.

Politics is funny about things like that, but believe me what happens now within the Republican Party does not impede the candidates chance in the general. In fact, it might help the candidate to have someone else representing a different side of the Republican Party at the convention in Minneapolis/St. Paul, where the anti-Republican demonstration is going to be pretty significant. His support then will mean more than it does now.

Romney was going to remain in the race, but some of his supporters what him to be able to run for the office again in the future and it's more likely that he'd irritate support he'll need in the future that McCain is garnering now, than the support that Huckabee is currently brandishing.

I know Senator Edwards personally, and I consider him to be a charlatan. He spent a lot of time talking about the importance of his message, and how he was going to carry a banner to the end. And in the course of one flight he changed his mind, and stabbed his supporters and staff in the heart. I sincerely doubt that he ever stood for one ounce of what he spoke of. He is a multimillionaire, and by that I mean he is worth tens of millions of dollars, and ran around talking about middle class values. He'd tell a story about how he grew up believing that people were people, and not what they did for a living, and a few minutes later he'd pop out the sentence "I'm the son of a mill worker, I came from dirt!" So, I guess he grew up in a place where the working class was dirt. He also said more than a few times, "I'm not worried about my kids. My kids are set for life! I'm worried about your kids." And I don't think I can forget the fact that the biggest benefactor for his non-profit that pays for books and tuition for college is the amount he writes off from his taxes. Not to mention, in spite of the pledge put forth by Senator Dodd's campaign that all of the Democratic candidates signed on to stating that none of their out of state staff, as in living in Iowa for the expressed purpose for working for the candidate, would Caucus, the Edwards campaign specifically order any of their staff which were "legal residents" (In Iowa you only have to live here for ten days to register) to caucus.

John Edwards, the profiteering lawyer who thinks he's a champion of the middle class in spite of never doing anything as a Senator to support them, is hardly a good example of an ethical or principled politician.

I significantly doubt that Huckabee is aiming for a VP bid, but if that's what the party wants, it's what the part gets. Huckabee already has a large fundraising base nationally if he were going to attempt to run a Senate race or a House race, he'd be better off leaving the Presidential election sooner so that he can actually run for that seat. I'm not sure when Alabama has their primaries, but I bet it happens in the late spring.

I think he just doesn't want to let his supporters down.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by vinavinx 9 years ago
vinavinx
You just proved his point. Huck is just doing this to furthur his own future. And not to ensure a good future of america.
Posted by aceofelves 9 years ago
aceofelves
McCain is known to be rather easily angered, and if some mishap were to occur, McCain could make a rash move and be forced to hang his head in sorrow and drop out, in which cause wouldn't Huckabee win by default?

What's wrong with furthering one's political future. Every move the Clintons have made since Yale has been to further their political power.

Mike Huckabee will have an excellent change of winning in 2012 now that America knows he is actually a viable candidate. His total support by the evangelicals is thrilling.

I think Huckabee has excellent character, and sufficient experience, and I like most all of his policies. We'll see what happens. I think Obama will be Mccain, but Mccain would beat Hillary.
Posted by Advidoct 9 years ago
Advidoct
The way I see it, either Huckabee is in this for himself or he is completely stupid in that he is oblivious to the fact that every day he stays in the race makes it less likely that the republicans will win.
Its not about "representing people" and its not about "making sure that people are heard". The people have spoken and they have chosen McCain. At this point its about unifying the party. McCain is having a rough time convincing more conservative republicans to support him and he ABSOLUTELY needs to get their backing if the republicans wanna win in November. All Huckabee is doing is giving McCain less time to do that.
Mitt Romney dropped out, despite having twice the support of Huckabee, saying that by continuing on he would forestall the formation of a united party. Romney made the right move and I respect him for that. Huckabee knows what he is doing to his party by staying in, and yet he wont quit. I am absolutely convinced it is out of sheer arrogance that he continues on.
Every time he explains himself, he talks about how he needs to represent his supporters, and that by dropping out he would be stomping out the voices of everyone who hasnt voted yet. The major flaw in this argument though, is that, again, the people have chosen. The republican party has essentially chosen McCain whether the remaining states vote or not...
In other words, the decision is already made so Huckabee's argument is completely voided. The only real reason Huckabee goes on is because he doesnt want to be remembered as a quiter.
...the irony is, Mitt Romney, who dropped out, will be remembered with a lot more respect than Huckabee...
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
C-Mach, I don't think what you said was accurate. Barack is losing by 3 points in Texas and he is losing by I don't know how many points in Ohio. Now, Texas is a big state with lots of delegates. And Hillary is a familiar face in Texas, which makes Texans like her. Not to mention the amount of rednecks who would never vote for an african-american.
Posted by wingnut2280 9 years ago
wingnut2280
I agree Barack makes my outlook desolate.
Posted by Patrick_Henry 9 years ago
Patrick_Henry
If you really dislike Mike Huckabee, one of my friends had a drunken one night stand with his daughter a few years ago in DC while he was on an internship.

He still regrets it.
Posted by C-Mach 9 years ago
C-Mach
No kidding. We could have had Mitt Romney instead of John McCain. And if people read the Constitution, we would have Ron Paul. But, unfortunately, Barack Obama is our next president. I weep for the future.
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