The Instigator
slammin
Con (against)
Losing
28 Points
The Contender
brittwaller
Pro (for)
Winning
69 Points

Miley Cyrus

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/22/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,360 times Debate No: 4762
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (21)

 

slammin

Con

I am extremely sorry for not responding to your earlier posts on the other debate. I was unable to acess the computer most of this whole past week. I promise I will be better about this debate though! :) Pretty much, my earlier opening argument stands true:

This is a debate on simply Miley Cyrus. Not on her show, just her as a person. I am totally against Miley. She is a horrible role model for the millions of young girls that look up to her. This is a short first argument I know, but I do need something to rebut. Thanks so much!

I think that we should just start over and begin a fresh debate! Thanks so much, and again I am sorry.
brittwaller

Pro

I figured you were just another forfeiter. I look forward to a (good) debate;)

So we're clear, the burden of proof is on you, as the instigator, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the resolution "Miley Cyrus is a bad role-model."

If she is as bad of a role model as you claim, then the millions of girls that look up to her can find a new one. We all know she is simply another breast-fed by Michael Eisner, bubblegum-pop, light as a feather, mass consumption of idiocy model, right?

Or do we?

Why is she a bad role model? What specifically has she done? Has she committed any felonies? Does she smoke crack? Does she abuse little children?

First, the debate is started under the assumption that "Don't Break my Heart, Jr." is a role-model. Can you please clarify the difference between a "good role model" and a "bad one"? What values/criteria do you assign to good and bad, respectively? How do your personal ethics, which you are judging one person with and projecting onto "millions of girls," affect your point of view?

Second, this person is young, attractive (I use that word loosely, I'm sure she is to some), talented (even more loosely), and successful. These are three of the most desired attributes to have in the modern world, and in our culture of consumption that worships exploited barely-there teenyboppers who "live on the wild side," I can see no better role-model. This is America: the market provides what people want. They wanted, and still want, this young lady, evidently.

Back to you, slammin

Britt
Debate Round No. 1
slammin

Con

"I figured you were just another forfeiter. I look forward to a (good) debate;) "

I am not 'just another forfeiter." Don't worry! I too look forward to a great debate.

"So we're clear, the burden of proof is on you, as the instigator, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the resolution "Miley Cyrus is a bad role-model.""

The burden of proof is not just on me. It is also your job to prove to me why Miley Cyrus is a good role model and just overall a good person and why you should be "pro" for her along with rebutting my claims . My job is to prove why she is a bad role model/ not a great person, etc. [Which I am getting to.] as well as rebut your claims.

Reasons Why Miley Cyrus is a Bad Role Model/Not a Great Person:

1. She posts naked/ inappropriate pictures of herself online and sends them off to other people. For example, the naked pictures she took of herself on her phone and sent of to her ex, Nick Jonas. Numerous scandals are unraveling being spread through the internet, magazines, T.V., and radio about "risky photos of Miley" being found. It has actually become "normal" so to speak. Nothing too new.

2. She is not nice to others. Take for example the following viedos. The first is one from Selena Gomez's and Demi Lovato's youtube show. The second is a parody of the first made by Miley and her friend Mandy.

Demi and Selena's: http://youtube.com...

Miley and Mandy's: http://youtube.com...

In this parody you can see that Miley and Mandy make fun of Demi and Selena. Whether you believe that it was a practical joke or a mean action, it still wasn't nice and she appeared to those 3 million viewers as a careless, shallow, and rude person unfit to be the idol of millions, yes millions of people across the globe.

3. The music video of 7 Things. In this video, there is a picture of Nick and Miley with Nick's face scratched out and she is also wearing Nick's dog tag pulling it. Is this what we want 7 year old girls watching and saying "Oh! When I get in a fight with somebody I will just destroy their sentimental items and scratch their faces off of pictures? I hope not, but this is what is happening.

4. After the sleepover scandal, where pictures of her kissing her friend surfaced all over the web, she replies with the phrase

"It's not something I'm going to let slide, I'm really upset about it, 'cause it was, like, not even a big deal. The blond in the picture a friend of mine that's a normal girl..

.That's one of my best friends. I have all these girls who I hang out with all the time. It's two girls at a sleepover, and if all of a sudden that's bad, then what is the world coming to?"

"If she is as bad of a role model as you claim, then the millions of girls that look up to her can find a new one."

I think that I have proved my point of her being a bad role model/ person. This debate was about Miley. Not JUST her being a bad role model, but also a teen with a bad personality/actions. Her and her family claim to keep their morals and values close to heart, but really- how morally well could Miley be while sending out these risky pictures/making fun of other celebs she feels threatened by?

"Why is she a bad role model? What specifically has she done? Has she committed any felonies? Does she smoke crack? Does she abuse little children? "

I believe I have stated why she is a bad role model previously. You don't have to commit felonies or abuse little kids to be a bad role model/ person. This brings me to my next set of points.

"Can you please clarify the difference between a "good role model" and a "bad one"? What values/criteria do you assign to good and bad, respectively? How do your personal ethics, which you are judging one person with and projecting onto "millions of girls," affect your point of view?"

I think that the definition being implied is quite easy to get:

Good Role Model:

"True role models are those who possess the qualities that we would like to have and those who have affected us in a way that makes us want to be better people. To advocate for ourselves and our goals and take leadership on the issues that we believe in. We often don't recognize our true role models until we have noticed our own personal growth and progress."
-http://www.techup.org...

Bad Role Model:

The opposite of a good role model. They carry and express bad actions/ traits that should not be taught to those looking up to this person.

From my previous claims, I can honestly tell you that Miley Cyrus is not a good role model and therefore not a great person.

"Second, this person is young, attractive (I use that word loosely, I'm sure she is to some), talented (even more loosely), and successful. These are three of the most desired attributes to have in the modern world, and in our culture of consumption that worships exploited barely-there teenyboppers who "live on the wild side," I can see no better role-model. This is America: the market provides what people want. They wanted, and still want, this young lady, evidently."

You can see no better role model?! I do. Selena Gomez, Demi Lovato, and many other highly known teens that live a good and honest life, without having the numerous scandals and controversies attached.

It will be pretty hard to come up with excuses for her inappropriate behavior and prove to me why this should all be overlooked and she is a good person/ role model. But good luck!!!

Back to you Britt! :)

~Slammin
brittwaller

Pro

For the sake of disclosure, I have to say that the most I knew of Miley Cyrus before this debate was that she is some teenybopper pop star that I see on magazine covers when I go grocery shopping. I feel my life has improved from the research involved in this debate...

"I am not 'just another forfeiter.'"

-Indeed. An excellent return volley on this round, I must admit.

"The burden of proof is not just on me. It is also your job to prove to me why Miley Cyrus is a good role model and just overall a good person and why you should be "pro" for her along with rebutting my claims . My job is to prove why she is a bad role model/ not a great person, etc. [Which I am getting to.] as well as rebut your claims."

-Incorrect. You essentially commit the same fallacy twice here: Black and White (aka either/or). Based on the resolution, which you did not dispute and thus agreed to, your role is specific: proving that Miley Cyrus is a bad role-model. However, this doesn't mean that I have have to prove that she IS a GOOD role-model - at the most I have to prove that she is not NOT a bad role-model. My argument versus yours is contradictory, not contrary, as you would have the readers believe - this is where the fallacy occurs in respect to both the resolution to be debated, as well as the reality of the situation. She might be a good role-model, a mediocre role-model, or completely neutral. Proving any of the former would win me the debate. In simpler terms, I am not here to prove anything specific except "Miley is not a bad role-model," which can be done by refuting you and introducing doubt to the readers.

"1. She posts naked/ inappropriate pictures of herself online and sends them off to other people. For example, the naked pictures she took of herself on her phone and sent of to her ex, Nick Jonas. Numerous scandals are unraveling being spread through the internet, magazines, T.V., and radio about "risky photos of Miley" being found. It has actually become "normal" so to speak. Nothing too new."

-Incorrect. A hacker admitted to getting the pictures and posting them. Here Miley Cyrus is simply the victim of an invasion of privacy.

"On July 12, 2008, a hacker known by the pseudonym TrainReq posted several photographs he claimed were of Miley on the website Digital Gangster. The purported photos included a shot of Cyrus posing in a shower wearing a white T-shirt, and a shot of Cyrus in sweat pants and T-shirt with her midriff showing. On the Digital Gangster site TrainReq states that he hacked Cyrus' e-mail to obtain the photos; other sources say that TrainReq allegedly hacked the photos from Cyrus' camera phone. TrainReq also went on to say the hacking occurred in early November 2007, but chose not to release the photos until now."
-http://en.wikipedia.org...

This was your only example, but as far as numerous scandals, etc, if you have no evidence then this point becomes irrelevant. Whatever one may think of it, the Hollywood rumour mill works on its own. It comes with territory. Damn "haters...."

"2. She is not nice to others. Take for example the following videos..."

Personally, I actually thought her parody was rather funny. Making inroads to a career in comedy now makes someone "careless, shallow, and rude"? It was an innocent attempt by young women that happen to be celebrities at satire. They (Miley and Mandy) didn't exactly call them and invite them over to their home in feigned friendship just so they could beat them up and post that on youtube. I also thought that video was funny, by the way:)

"3. The music video of 7 Things. In this video, there is a picture of Nick and Miley with Nick's face scratched out and she is also wearing Nick's dog tag pulling it. Is this what we want 7 year old girls watching and saying "Oh! When I get in a fight with somebody I will just destroy their sentimental items and scratch their faces off of pictures? I hope not, but this is what is happening."

-OK... So now expression via art (again, I use these terms loosely) that isn't a fairy-tale version of the world (contrast "Hannah Montana") makes a person a bad role-model? Better include every great artist that has lived.

"After the sleepover scandal, where pictures of her kissing her friend surfaced all over the web, she replies with the phrase..."

-You may view these actions/statements as immoral/wrong/inappropriate, but where is your license in moral tutelage? You have no right, or any expectation of rights, to impose your personal morality on anyone else, including Miley Cyrus or those that allegedly look up to her. Pictures of a kiss... she must be a bad role-model.

"I think that I have proved my point..."

-1)I disagree and 2)now you have a working knowledge of the mind of Miley? Or she simply told you she felt threatened and thus took said actions? and 3)There is a difference between being a fan of someone and considering them a role-model: I am a fan of Led Zeppelin and Guns n' Roses, but that doesn't mean that I either idolize them or consider them role-models.

"Good Role Model:

'True role models are those who possess the qualities that we would like to have and those who have affected us in a way that makes us want to be better people. To advocate for ourselves and our goals and take leadership on the issues that we believe in. We often don't recognize our true role models until we have noticed our own personal growth and progress.'"

-Definition accepted. This leaves the definition of "good" completely in the hands of the individual, and says nothing about any actual standard of judgement.

"From my previous claims, I can honestly tell you that Miley Cyrus is not a good role model and therefore not a great person."

-I am not conceding this point, but I have to tell you honestly that your logic is completely backwards here. Proper: "Miley Cyrus is not a great person, therefore she is not a good role-model."

"You can see no better role model?! I do. Selena Gomez, Demi Lovato, and many other highly known teens that live a good and honest life, without having the numerous scandals and controversies attached."

-Cyrus is obviously a bigger celebrity than either of these other girls. See above point on the Hollywood rumour mill.

To humour you:

"In 2007, Cyrus made a large contribution to the City of Hope (she gave $1 for every HM concert ticket sold) 'The cool thing about being a part of City of Hope is that they are a cancer research center. They're not only helping kids that are there, but also finding out how they can heal them by figuring out what exactly is going on, which is amazing.'[39]"
-http://en.wikipedia.org...

Back to you, slammin:)

Britt
Debate Round No. 2
slammin

Con

"For the sake of disclosure, I have to say that the most I knew of Miley Cyrus before this debate was that she is some teenybopper pop star that I see on magazine covers when I go grocery shopping. I feel my life has improved from the research involved in=2 0this debate..."

I am glad that you have learned a lot about her through this debate, but still- if you really had no idea what was going on with her, etc. then maybe you aren't really fit to say that she is a good person or not a bad person.

"-Indeed. An excellent return volley on this round, I must admit"

J Thanks! You replied with great quality as well.

"-Incorrect. You essentially commit the same fallacy twice here: Black and White (aka either/or). Based on the resolution, which you did not dispute and thus agreed to, your role is specific: proving that Miley Cyrus is a bad role-model. However, this doesn't mean that I have have to prove that she IS a GOOD role-model - at the most I have to prove that she is not NOT a bad role-model. My argument versus yours is contradictory, not contrary, as you would have the readers believe - this is where the fallacy occurs in respect to both the resolution to be debated, as well as the reality of the situation. She might be a good role-model, a mediocre role-model, or completely neutral. Proving any of the former would win me the debate. In simpler terms, I am not here to prove anything specific except "Miley is not a bad role-model," which can be done by refuting you and introducing doubt to the readers."

Okay. Let me clarify.

My Job: Prove why she is not a great person [not just a bad role model]. I have done this. Refute any of your points.

Your Job: Opposite of mine. Prove to me20why she is not a bad person. Refute my points.

You have rebuted my points, but have not proved to me why you are Pro for Miley. What makes her not a bad person?

Anyways, onto the debate.

"-Incorrect. A hacker admitted to getting the pictures and posting them. Here Miley Cyrus is simply the victim of an invasion of privacy."

True, a hack er may have gotten these pics, but what good and morally valued teen girl would take those pictures and blackmail them to her ex Nick Jonas?! New pictures have been incovered o f her taking pictures o herself naked in the bathroom mirror. They found them on her phone. My source is the radio [Q100] while yours is wikipedia?! Wikipedia is not a valid source. Anybody can get on and change any information.

"Personally, I actually thought her parody was rather funny. Making inroads to a career in comedy now makes someone "careless, shallow, and rude"? It was an innocent attempt by young women that happen to be ce lebrities at satire. They (Miley and Mandy) didn't exactly call them and invite them over to their home in feigned friendship just so they could beat them up and post that on youtube. I also thought that video was funny, by the way:)"

Still, again I ask what good and morally well person would do this? It is just plain unnecessary and inappropriate. Look at what this teaches the thousands/ millions of viewers.

Your personal opinion isn't really a valid source either…

"-OK... So now expression via art (again, I use these terms loosely) that isn't a fairy-tale version of the world (contrast "Hannah Montana") makes a person a bad role-model? Better include every great artist that has lived."

Uhmm…how does this disprove my point? She showed the world her newfound hate for poor Nick. Again, look at what it teaches the kids.

"-1)I disagree and 2)now you have a working knowledge of the mind of Miley? Or she simply told you she felt threatened and thus took said actions? and 3)There is a difference between being a fan of someone and considering them a role-model: I am a fan of Led Zeppelin and Guns n' Roses, but that doesn't mean that I either idolize them or consider them role-models."

I can't get into the mind of Miley Cyrus, but her actions speak to me loud and clear. I am not sayig that she is a horrible person who will never get any better. I am just against her current way of life and actions. Remember, this was not just a debate about how she is not a good role model, but also not a great person in general.

"
-I am not conceding this point, but I have to tell you honestly that your logic is completely backwards here. Proper: "Miley Cyrus is not a great person, therefore she is not a good role-model.""

If they are not a good person them logically, she is not a good role model. It is pure logic.
If the person is not good, you don't want them as your role model. Sorry for saying it backwards. :)

"Cyrus is obviously a bigger celebrity than either of these other girls. See above point on the Hollywood rumour mill."
So? Just beca use you are a bigger celebrity doesn't make you any better or a better person more fit to be a fine exapmple of a role model does it?
"
"In 2007, Cyrus made a large contribution to the City of Hope (she gave $1 for every HM concert ticket sold) 'The cool thing about being a part of City of Hope is that they are a cancer research center. They're not only helping kids that are there, but also finding out how they can heal them by figuring out what exactly is going on, which is amazing.'[39]"
-http://en.wikipedia.org...;
Still Wikipedia is not a valid source but...just because you have done a few charitable or nice things in your life doesn't automatically make you a great person. I am speaking of her current status. With all of her money, she SHOULD be donating like this regulalry. The good things do not make up for all the numerous negative actions she has commited.

My opponent has offered just this previous point as his only reason as to why she is not a bad person. But again I say, would a truely moral, good person do this kind of stuff? Take naked pictures of herself to blackmail to her ex? Make fun of other celebs? No! Just consider this please. I kid you not, every time I listen to the radio [once a week maybe] there is ALWAYS a new scandal involving Miley. Seriously, is this really who we want out young children and gra ndchildren, siblings, and friends to idolize? I think not. She might have done these charitable acts,but they do not make up for her regular scandals occuring NOW. I truely hope that Miley Cyrus recieves some help and learns to lead a new way of life! There is always hope! :) Good luck to you Miley!
Back to you Britt for one last time!
~Slammin
P.S. Thanks for the great debate!
brittwaller

Pro

Well, this debate has been interesting. Your arguments here were much better than I expected, and you kept going. So many opponents simply forfeit that I'm strangely appreciative of an entire debate. I will refute CON's R3 and then tell you why I win. If my tone becomes abusive, please understand that it's nothing personal, slammin.

"I am glad that you have learned a lot about her through this debate, but still- if you really had no idea what was going on with her, etc. then maybe you aren't really fit to say that she is a good person or not a bad person."

-1)I was being facetious:), 2)That should be all the better for you, right? It is our arguments that matter, for that is what will sway voters, not either of our credentials, or lack thereof. We're not exactly debating rocket science, to use the old clich´┐Ż.

"Okay. Let me clarify..."

-You missed my point here. The world isn't divided into good and bad, black and white - it isn't that simple. Just because Miley isn't *bad* doesn't make her *good.* By the same token, just because I am not "against" Miley in this debate does not mean that I am necessarily "for" Miley. As I said, my argument is contradictory, not contrary. Now, you didn't provide a clear resolution in your opening argument, which only mentioned the "role-model" part of your case. So I provided the resolution, which you did not dispute; therefore anything beyond this, such as her not being a good person, etc, is irrelevant.

"True, a hack er may have gotten these pics, but what good and morally valued teen girl would take those pictures and blackmail them to her ex Nick Jonas?!"

-It's her phone and her body, and what she does with either of them in private is her business. If her privacy hadn't been invaded, which is a crime while taking pictures of yourself is not, this would not be a point in your argument. Differently, you never gave any standard of morality at all which I am supposed to see her breaking. I am a consequentialist, so for me Miley, despite her corporate puppet status, is still pretty far on the "OK" side of the moral fence. Also: "blackmail" isn't a letter in a dark envelope that you drop in the mailbox;)

"New pictures have been [u]ncovered of her taking pictures of herself naked in the bathroom mirror. They found them on her phone."

-Who is "they" and why are "they" on her phone anyway? It seems if the scandal-crazed media and hackers would leave the girl alone, there wouldn't be all this "controversy." Sounds like another invasion of privacy.

"My source is the radio [Q100] while yours is wikipedia?! Wikipedia is not a valid source. Anybody can get on and change any information."

-I'll grant you that wikipedia isn't the greatest source around. However, compared to your previous unsourced quotes and "radio Q100," whatever that may be, I daresay that wiki might as well have the seal of God. Besides, if the information was incorrect, you should have countered with an argument.

"Still, again I ask what good and morally well person would do this? It is just plain unnecessary and inappropriate. Look at what this teaches the thousands/ millions of viewers."

-You tell me, slammin. I'm still trying to figure out what standard you are judging by. And what does it teach the viewers? You haven't told me that, either.

"Your personal opinion isn't really a valid source either…"

-Thus my qualification "Personally..."

"Uhmm…how does this disprove my point? She showed the world her newfound hate for poor Nick."

-I'm simply saying that she was expressing a fairly common emotion - when people break up they often have a strong dislike for one another. It has nothing to do with being a good role-model or a good person. Also, you betray bias by saying "poor Nick." From what I understand, this Nick kid is fairly well-off, both financially and romantically.

"I can't get into the mind of Miley Cyrus, but her actions speak to me loud and clear. I am not sayig that she is a horrible person who will never get any better. I am just against her current way of life and actions."

-You said she did these things because she felt threatened. That's a motive, but not one that you have valid access to.

"Sorry for saying it backwards."

-Don't be sorry, be careful:) You didn't have to reiterate to me the logic I showed you.

"So? Just beca use you are a bigger celebrity doesn't make you any better or a better person more fit to be a fine exapmple of a role model does it?"

-Strawman. I never said it did - my point is that the bigger a celebrity a person is, they, for better or worse, have more sycophants, paparazzi, and evidently phone-hackers around them, just waiting on the latest bubblegum crap "story" or "scandal" to break. There are magazines to sell, tabloids included, in which "truth" isn't relevant.

"Still Wikipedia is not a valid source but...just because you have done a few charitable or nice things in your life doesn't automatically make you a great person. I am speaking of her current status. With all of her money, she SHOULD be donating like this regulalry. The good things do not make up for all the numerous negative actions she has commited."

-Again, if the *referenced* (see that "39" in brackets?) source is incorrect, you should tell us. True, this does not automatically make her a good person, but again, I never said it did. However, it's more than any of your examples of "good" role-models have done.

"My opponent has offered just this previous point as his only reason as to why she is not a bad person."

-That wasn't why I quoted that; I told you it was simply to humour you, as it is a part of the good person/bad person part of your argument, which is entirely irrelevant to the debate.

At the most, all of these teens are mediocre people - no more, no less.

slammin, you might have had a stronger case if you had made the clear resolution "Miley Cyrus is not a good role-model." But, you allowed me to provide "Miley Cyrus is a bad role-model," and you didn't dispute this. There is a difference, integral to the debate. Finally, CON never provided the solid definitions necessary to complete her argument, as well as hold it together.

I enjoyed it, slammin. See you around the site.

Britt
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DebateSpirit 7 years ago
DebateSpirit
Let's me ask you con, how do you know if Selena Gomez or Demi Lovato have never taken any of their pictures naked before? So are your teachers or those who you loved, you can't know, therefore I don't think you can use that picture scandal thing to say; 'Miley is not a good model."
Posted by Kleptin 8 years ago
Kleptin
I turned the tide on this one :P
Posted by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
Perhaps reason will prevail after all:)
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
Con let Pro define the resolution which was, "Miley Cyrus is not a bad role-model." Pro in that case has to be 'for' Miley Cyrus is something /other than/ a bad role model (a feather brained vegetable for example). That is what the pro is for, not being for her being a good role model.

PRO did a very thurough job of explaining why this is in his arguments, and he backed it all up. Therefor he gets my vote.
Posted by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
lol I guess they need better role-models @>@
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
Holy education Batman! Tis a shame, brittwaller. To think what they teach children these days. ;)
Posted by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
Thank the laws of physics, someone who understands what a logical fallacy is!
Posted by Puck 8 years ago
Puck
I have to side with, brittwaller, on this one. Con has failed to fulill her burden, Pro did.
Posted by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
"Well, uhmm here's some logic: If you are Pro that is a root meaning "for" so obviously you have to be for Miley and prove why people should be for her."

I'm well aware of what "pro" means. You're still missing the point: I didn't have to prove that Miley is a good role-model, just that she is not a bad one. Also, *where* exactly did CON provide more facts? Those that were provided were refuted. CON provided no criteria of moral judgement - read her definition of "good role-model" - and this should have been the downfall of her argument.
Posted by polka-dots323 8 years ago
polka-dots323
I think that both sides provided great arguments, so great job to both of you! I had to vote for Con though because they provided more facts and details as to why they are Con. Pro said " By the same token, just because I am not "against" Miley in this debate does not mean that I am necessarily "for" Miley."
Well, uhmm here's some logic: If you are Pro that is a root meaning "for" so obviously you have to be for Miley and prove why people should be for her.

But other than that great debate!!!

~Polka
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
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Vote Placed by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
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Vote Placed by Kleptin 8 years ago
Kleptin
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Vote Placed by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
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Vote Placed by wheelhouse3 8 years ago
wheelhouse3
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