The Instigator
ThomasTownend
Pro (for)
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The Contender
1970vu
Con (against)
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Military Intervention in Syria against Bashar-Al Assad is Morally Just (even if it comes too late)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/1/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,415 times Debate No: 41497
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
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ThomasTownend

Pro

Military Intervention against Bashar is a just cause because this isn't a matter of retaliating to a solitary chemical attack, this is a matter of putting a dynasty of oppression to an end and granting Syria freedom and democracy. Humanitarian aid is not enough, it will only lightly ameliorate the suffering vainly: the root of the conflict should be the target.

During September 2013 an attack against the Ba"ath regime of Assad seemed imminent; The American USS Harry S. Truman was in position at the red sea waiting for the UK, France, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Israel and Turkey to join it: soon the tyrannical Assad dynasty was to come crumbling down, and the Arab spring would finally democratically re-invigorate the oppressed nation of Syria! But out came every dictator"s favourite kitten "George Galloway" to the rescue; Ed and the opposition also rebelled against the notion, caving in to the Iraq induced apathetic consensus towards foreign policy (to be fair to them they were more concerned about waiting for UN inspection results/evidence). Even a total of 30 Tory MPs voted against the government! The strike was promptly put on hold by the international community, as the UN inspections continued. Vladimir Putin ex- KGB agent, oppressor of freedom and dissent, Poisioner of Ukraine (eu fiasco) Homophobe, continuous supporter of the on-going genocide of Chechnya and corrupted figure was even nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for his vile broker " disgusting (the Nobel peace prize is slowly losing its credibility first the drone warfare barbarian Obama now Putin). The naive demagogues celebrated this as a victory for democracy (which is painfully laughable): I sat in revolt alongside Michael Gove and Vincent Cable, as I watched those so called humanitarians rejoice while Syrian Society decayed. Power loving Bashar had gotten away with it, the man behind the Houla Massacre which cost 49 children their throats, the man who advocated the savage beating of "Ali Ferzat" for a satirical cartoon, the man who orchestrated the brutal shelling campaign on Aleppo which destroyed active hospitals and cultural sites, The man who ordered his military to open fire on a peaceful Arab Spring protests in 2011, The leader whose forces besieged Der al-Zour and took the community"s basic resources and has them living under continuous threat! The man whose air force has been targeting schools for bombing like in Raqqua, And the man behind not only the Damascus massacres throughout the war, but the dropping of an incendiary bomb on a school playground (and those are only his crimes within this period of war, this list would be several pages long if I included pre-war behaviour ; His sadomasochism has helped create a human rights violation record in strong rivalry to his father"s ) " vindicated by many, but history will destroy that conception I guarantee that. What shocks me is that Hezbollah a group who claim to be the protectors of Lebanon support Assad"s regime " A regime that didn"t recognise Lebanese sovereignty till 2008 (and clung on to its imperialist occupation claim of greater Syria until 2005), were suspects in the murder of former foreign minister Rafik Hariri, the implementation of a minefield on the border in 2011 (actually they might like that) and the fact that Hezbollah are exhibiting blatant double standards over the Arab spring and subordination against Muslims. The FSA are isolated, now with only jihadists to turn to they"re fractionalised, practically now a mass idealistically divided undefinable force of men with guns avoiding sectarianism just for one unified cause: so fractionalised that arms supplement will not work as an effective catalyst to their cause; we"re failing the Syrian people and their future! The only plausibly decisive catalyst to Assad"s deserved demise is a military air strike, since until Assad is removed from the picture Syria will never be at peace: After his removal elections could be held, rebels and regime alike would be prosecuted for any crimes, Syrian migrants could return and rebuild, deeper investigation could be held over the chemical attack and the Turkish forces finding sarin in an Al sunara front; and any remaining Al Qaeda affiliates could be better identified and combated. Libya was completely wrong, and I fundamentally disagree with NATO action taken there, so it equally upsets me that that wrong is now impending this course of right. Unlike there the army are against the people (they're Assad pawns and murderous animals). Psuedo-Liberals who oppose the war claim also to oppose imperialism, repression, brutality, censorship, discrimination, torture, sectarianism - All things the Assad Regime celebrate proudly. Syrian prisons make gunetanemo bay look like the Hilton. Most evidence points to Assad being behind the Ghouta chemical attack. Solidarity with Qusai Zakarya Hunger Strike Under Siege in Moadamiya, Syria (a Facebook campaign I thoroughly recommend you look at). Watch the videos of the original protests in Homs being shot down! I wont be pandeirngly pedantic by linking loads of videos but here is one channel definitely worth a watch http://www.youtube.com.... Child Martyrs!!!!!!!!!!

The Syrian opposition coalition are the political body of the movement and once you look at them (as they who're to take power) any preconceptions of Islamic extremism and Christian persecution will be calmed. The rest are merely soldiers to the cause and for the most part don't claim to political authority and legitimacy.

Let us not repeat the laissez faire disaster of Bosnia, the Spanish civil war, Rwanda and Sudan! Ignoring these problems always blows up in your face. To ensure permanent stability foreign policy must be pragmatic, diplomatic and sporadically aggressive. Totalitarianism must be fought wherever it manifests. Its time the UN stepped up and did its job. Genocide and mass murder must never be tolerated or given a blind eye!
1970vu

Con

Everyone remembers the Iraq war. President George W. Bush made a plea to the United states Congress to allow sending troops to Iraq. The evidence presented was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The United states congress agreed. Realize that the United states constitution requires a declaration of war be made in order to send troops. Anyway, the troops got to Iraq. What did they find? They found no weapons of mass destruction! At home, everyone scratched their heads. They asked, so all of it was just for nothing? Fast forward to today. Once again, the president wants some kind of military action on Syria. Syria was and is accused to using chemical weapons on it's people. Syria is also involved in a civil war. However that civil war over time came to involve islamic forces. Anyway, President Obama wanted to make a ' statement.' The United Nations decided to open a investigation called 'Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic.' They looked over the facts. Carla del ponte is the one of the leaders of the investigation. She accused the syrian rebels of using chemical weapons. She later then said that claim needed more investigation. Back at home, President obama is being criticized. Many people in the United States Congress felt that there is no clear reason to attack . A lot of other people felt that way. Here is why.

1. Syria has not attacked the United states or any other country
2. There is not concrete proof that Syria has chemical weapons, only a video.
3. It will cost a lot of money.

You point out a bunch of other attacks by the Syrian government. However, like the reasons stated above, There is no reason to attack Syria. Back In the United nations, the investiagtion began to look at The Houla massacre. They concluded that"with the available evidence" it could not rule out any of three possible perpetrators (Syrian Government forces, anti-Government forces, and foreign groups), although it considered anti-Government forces "unlikely" to have been the perpetrators due to their difficulty in accessing one of the sites in question against the superior firepower of government forces in the area. You might be wondering what is my point. My point is this. Why does the United states and the United nations have to be the ' Policeman of the world' ? The Vietnam war and the war in Iraq are examples of this. And besides, If you watch your news today, you might find out that Syria has gotten rid of the chemical weapons. Bashar assad is still attacking the Syrian people. But the removal of Chemical weapons happened without military intervention. So do we need to Attack Syria. I say not

Sources:
1. http://www.gpo.gov...
2.http://www.gpo.gov...
3.http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com...
Debate Round No. 1
ThomasTownend

Pro

Before I start my rebuttal, may I thank the honourable gentleman for his response and wish him the best of luck in the prosaic proceedings:

Once again the cyclic Iraq analogy is drawn in a nescient manner against Syria's case. In regards to Iraq you seem to only focus in on the potential WMD's and not the other inertia that supported the Iraq Invasion in other people's perspective (Attempted genocide on Kurdistan, attempted establishment of a Greater Iraq by means of invasion and the gross abuses of the Oil-for-food-programme which led to much malnutrition; to name but a few). The invasion wasn't "all for nothing" it achieved the 8 main objectives of 'Operation Iraqi Freedom' and gave Iraq democracy and a free press. I'm by no means trying to support the Iraq war I'm just saying that in-between many of the glaring negatives of misconduct and pretence there are some positives to be found. Saying that half a million Iraqi civilians, 318 coalition solders and 4,486 US milllatry personnel died for nothing strikes me as cold, naive and absurd. I don't support war flippantly and am not a Neo-Con so I'd urge you to not let this bad example (although recent) inflict too much fear in your judgement. Following your logic of not attacking a country as long as it does not invade others - should we have left Hitler alone if he didn't assault Poland?

From your response I infer that you seem to believe that America shouldn't care about Syria (please correct me if i'm wrong good sir). 2 million civilians have been displaced and over 100,000 killed in the conflict! Jordan and other neighbouring countries are packed full of refugees they're struggling to look after; Polio has even broken out! Syria is a huge international issue, and America is whether you like it or not a prominent world power with the world's largest military budget; You're the most practically qualified to assist the insurgency. Why not divert your drones away from blowing up pakistani and yemense villages, and actually put them to good use for once! Syrian intervention is matter of moral dignity not imperialist superiority! History will look back on this event in revulsion if we don't attack! To paraphrase Sartre's existentialism and humanism 'there is no hope except in action': that axiom has stark relevance here, as a strike against Assad is the only way now to finally emancipate the oppressed peoples' of Syria from its current state of quasi-fascism. By ignoring the revolution you leave the Syrian people/usurpers with no one to turn to but the islamists (who are often infighting with the rebels, as the islamists often try to magistrate their lw on them). We must help end this war before syria truly implodes leaving millions without their nation! This is a battle we must fight to not only punish the past, change the present and preserve a future!

The next point i'd like to address is the ill-informed fallacy that there is barely any evidence proving regime forces performed the chemical attack on 'Ghouta'. Here is some counter evidence to your claim:
. British firms have revealed that over the last few years they have traded in chemicals with the syrian regime and given them chemicals that could be used to create the nerve agent Sarin
. One of the rockets used came from the soviet union (we know that Russia has consistently supplied the syrian regime with weapons for decades now)
. The Syrian government denied inspectors initial access to Ghouta ........suspicious
. Triangulating rocket trajectories pinpoints the origin of the attack as within government-held territory. Consideration of missile ranges provides additional evidence the rockets originated from the triangulated government-held region.
. "Human Rights Watch and arms experts monitoring the use of weapons in Syria have not documented Syrian opposition forces to be in the possession of the 140mm and 330mm rockets used in the attack or their associated launchers (both are partial groups analysing the conflict)
. The attacks were also "large-scale", involving at least 12 rockets targeting two different neighbourhoods situated 16 km apart, and surrounded by major Syrian government military positions.
. The attacks were meticulous and tactical, requiring large amounts of nerve agent, specialised procedures to load the warheads with the nerve agent, and specialised launchers to launch the rockets (hardly what you'd expect from Rebels who actually have to build their own firearms in a lot of areas)
. Wind conditions of the day support claim
. New Scientist noted that there appeared to be no government troop casualties from the attack
And this is just to specify a few! Hardly "Just a video" old sport.

So what they joined the chemical convention; The regime still have a huge stock of conventional weapons that administer just as much damage (most notably their shells which rain down on Aleppo and Ghouta daily, destroying hospitals, homes, schools and lives daily!). If you think the destruction of Assad's chemical stockpile will magically end the war your'e truly deluded good sir.

Granted the economic cost is substantial but is worth it purely on humanitarian value. The cost of the proposed isn't impossible however and could be lessened/ solved by budget restructuring in the military department (primarily in Israeli Aid). And also the cost of the attack hasn't yet been finely extrapolated as experts say the differing courses of potential action have different costs. Don't let hideous regimes of vitriol and inhumanity like Putin and khamenei govern this war: we must stand up for the Syrian Street! This is a matter of global geo-politics and human rights don't analyse it within the paradigm of introverted national politics.

I'll adressVietnamCommen

In conclusion I have a couple of passing questions I wish to ask you for clarification of your stance and ethos:
1) Are you a pacifist? (apathy with an alibi)
2) Do you support and vindicate the Assad regime?
3) Are you a libertarian
1970vu

Con

I realize that You are from the United Kingdom. I am a Libertarian. I do not support the Assad regime. Okay!
In 1941, the United States declared war against Germany and Japan. It was the last time that a formal declaration of war was made. Now what criteria Must there be for a declaration of war? Two things.
1. The opposing country attacked or plans to attack us.

2. It is a threat to National Security.

World war 2 met all of these requirements. In today's world, we have new problems in front of us. What to do with dictators like Assad or Kim Jong un. You want to invade Syria to free the people. We have a dilemma.
Syria did not attack any country at all! It is wrong on a legal basis to attack because according the U.N charter to which the US and the UK were signers, you can only attack in the case of self defense. As I have said before, Syria has not attacked any country. It is true that Assad is torturing the Syrian people. But then we have no legal reason.
On the matter of the Iraq war, Colin Powell in 2001 asked The United Nations to send troops to Iraq. He said that why attacking Iraq is necessary was because Iraq has WMDs. The United nations agreed. But then, when the truth came out about those WMDs, The president of the United states defended his position saying that Iraq was torturing it's people.
Anyway, My opponent has point out America's unwillingness to do something. However we can not. And if we did, we would not even have a game plan. Pope Francis has spoken against military action in Syria instead asking for Peace. That raises another question. How would Iran or Russia react. Do you want them to get involved too ? For another reason why I do not support military intervention is because I am afraid that it will ' spill the beans,'
Debate Round No. 2
ThomasTownend

Pro

ThomasTownend forfeited this round.
1970vu

Con

Wow, Okay where are you. I will wait.
Debate Round No. 3
ThomasTownend

Pro

ThomasTownend forfeited this round.
1970vu

Con

I will wait. Again.
Debate Round No. 4
ThomasTownend

Pro

ThomasTownend forfeited this round.
1970vu

Con

i will wait again.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by independentthought 3 years ago
independentthought
you have to realize who is steering this giant ship(us government). It is the Jews who are ruining our society by putting Israeli interests before Americas. I understand that they have been persecuted for thousands of years and deserve their own homeland. However, I think its unhealthy when the strongest interest group in the U.S. is that of a foreign nation.
To a large extent, Jews have done extremely well in this country and in Europe; they are higher in education and income than almost any other ethnic group; something I admire. Too often, even mentioning jewish/israeli influence in america gets you labeled an anti-semite(which basically means the conversation is over and you are ruined)
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
I'd like to apologise to my opponent and my audience, you see I'm a student and had to commit to some pending coursework. I will try to respond as best I can however time has turned against me, and thus I was forfeited much to my dismay.
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
*weltenschaung my bad gang

your first line doesn't make sense independent thought
Oh how sweet the contours of the lexicon can be.
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
Weletekschaung
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
Devastation vs danger
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
Let's turn the political thermocline; revolution is a chaos system. Yes the rebels aren't simply the good guys, they however are the majority so I'd insist upon you naive demagogues abandoning your silly conceptions of altruism and wake up to the necessarily violent reality of revolution Henry Jackson society x
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
*naive (gotta be a bit inane and petty darling ;)
Pablum as ever independent thought. What do you mean "we" don't care about Syrian civilians? I care, millions of campaigners care across the world care, charities care, ordinary people care, celebrities care and lots f political bodies and representatives care. If you meant that it isn't the primary concern or prerogative for example the US and Saudi governments I'd agree since both of them have wanted to destabilise Assad for years now (which I fail to see as a negative).youre being exceedingly bleak,pessimistic and nihilistic if you think political leaders don't care about Syrian civilians (do you understand compassion, empathy or integrity or even sentiency at that matter? )You speak of the rebels too broadly which to me indicates a severe lack of inciteful political cultivation on the topic - yet somehow I'm the naive one? If you really think that the proletariat in Detroit and chiraq in Chicago have got It worse than in the war torn towns of Syria I'd advise you to "wake up" and witness the detritus (both said examples are big but different issues in themselves and do have my condolence). You truly know nothing of the Assad dynasty if you even begin to put its behaviour on the same spectrum /level of its countless victims. What good do troops do at home? Where do you get your statistics from? What evidence do you have to back up your cheap aspersions? Have you read a single book, or albeit a on ground report from Syria? There are so many more dangerous cities around the world that easily subvert your claims tripoli being one. I suggest you actually read the debate and know what you're talking about you ignoramus. There was that demeaning and turgid enough for you deary? (I'm British btw so it's a bit of a home speciality).
Posted by independentthought 3 years ago
independentthought
Stay out of Syria do not use our tax dollars for this propaganda. You are nieve to think we care about civilians the rebels are no better than the government. Bring the troops home; New Orleans and Detroit are the top 10 most dangerous cities in the world we need to focus here not there! WAKE UP
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
Serendipity you darling:
http://www.france24.com...

'Carla del ponte' (not a figure for your side after all good sir) and a UN inquiry team implicate Assad in War Crimes! The sheer prospect of seeing Assad in the Hague is getting me giddy.
Posted by ThomasTownend 3 years ago
ThomasTownend
Watch the on the ground YouTube footage (especially Vice's Ground Zero)
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