The Instigator
policydebategod
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
Ahking
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Minimum Wage Should Be Abolished

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,560 times Debate No: 663
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (10)

 

policydebategod

Pro

-The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs.
-Teenagers, workers in training, college students, interns, and part-time workers all have their options and opportunities limited by the minimum wage.
-A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills.
-Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices.
-When you force American companies to pay a certain wage, you increase the likelihood that those companies will outsource jobs to foreign workers, where labor is much cheaper.
-Non-profit charitable organizations are hurt by the minimum wage.
-The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business.
-A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanize duties previously held by humans.
-Cost-of-living differences in various areas of the country make a universal minimum wage difficult to set.
-The minimum wage creates a competitive advantage for foreign companies, providing yet another obstacle in the ability of American companies to compete globally.
-The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.
Ahking

Con

Hello, thanks for challenging me to a debate.

Minimum wage protects people.

Minimum wage ranges from 5-7 dollars an hour depending on what state you're in. Take a 40 hour work week with the average 6 dollars an hour and a 49 week work-year and that is 11,760 dollars a YEAR. That is 1000 dollars above the poverty line in America.

Teenagers, workers-in training, interns, and college students are NOT impacted by minimum wage at all. On a whole, college students get paid MORE than minimum wage and interns don't work for MONEY but for EXPERIENCE. Thus, most internships are unpaid. And teenagers are dependent on their parents still, so money is not a necessity for their survival.

Not only does it protect people from poverty, but it protects people from businesses and corporations. (The poor from the rich.)

Look at the people who work as burger-flippers and cashiers at fast food places. The line for that job to get 6$ an hour goes out the door. McDonalds, if they could, would give the job to the lowest bidder. In reality, the lowest bidder's salary would net him WAY below the cost of bare-essentials living. He could do this because he's probably a teenager living with his parents and just wants money to have - not to survive. The teenager will win where the man who needs to feed his family will lose. Unskilled laborers compete for the lowest wage, and Minimum wage is a way stop that from getting out of hand.

Minimum wage does NOT limit our ability to compete globally, but strengthens it.

I read a story about a California McDonald's outsourcing the drive-thru speaker to Mexico. While that's a very scary thing globalization and Minimum wage is still beneficial to America. Minimum wage, like globalization, encourages people to compete and thus improve themselves. The fact is, there will ALWAYS be competition for a job. Even with minimum wage, there simply aren't enough jobs to hire everybody. By encouraging entrepreneurship and skill development, Minimum wage and globalization make people better. It's not like the drive-thru window is the only job out there either, it just means unskilled laborers head towards different ones.

The justification for Minimum wage is this:

There is always someone who will work for less to beat out the next guy.
and
Businesses want to pay the lowest wage possible to their workers to maximize profit.
so
Minimum wage exists to create competition based on skills, not wage.

It's not like minimum wage is a lot of money (as I said earlier, 11000 a year for one person), so I don't see how it hurts businesses.
Debate Round No. 1
policydebategod

Pro

- Minimum wage protects people.
+ People can protect themselves by quitting jobs and choosing jobs.

- Minimum wage ranges from 5-7 dollars an hour depending on what state you're in. Take a 40 hour work week with the average 6 dollars an hour and a 49 week work-year and that is 11,760 dollars a YEAR. That is 1000 dollars above the poverty line in America.
+ This hurts businesses to have to pay so much. Employers will not hire inexoerience teens and college students but rather experienced adults, making these people unable to find work.

- Teenagers, workers-in training, interns, and college students are NOT impacted by minimum wage at all. On a whole, college students get paid MORE than minimum wage and interns don't work for MONEY but for EXPERIENCE. Thus, most internships are unpaid. And teenagers are dependent on their parents still, so money is not a necessity for their survival.
+ Teenagers dont have to be dependent on their parents. College student need low paying jobs so they can stay focused on studies and have time to go to class. Many internships are paid. When these people must be paid, their salaries will go to experienced people. Also, youre forgetting that some charities pay their workers, this is unfair to charities and the people that they help.

- Not only does it protect people from poverty, but it protects people from businesses and corporations. (The poor from the rich.)
+ People can quit and choose jobs. The rich is not hurting the poor.

- Look at the people who work as burger-flippers and cashiers at fast food places. The line for that job to get 6$ an hour goes out the door. McDonalds, if they could, would give the job to the lowest bidder. In reality, the lowest bidder's salary would net him WAY below the cost of bare-essentials living. He could do this because he's probably a teenager living with his parents and just wants money to have - not to survive. The teenager will win where the man who needs to feed his family will lose. Unskilled laborers compete for the lowest wage, and Minimum wage is a way stop that from getting out of hand.
+ People are competent enough to make the decision to work for whatever they like. This is not the government's decision. It is just intrusive. Also, fewer people get jobs because the money that goes to one person could go to multiple workers who want to work for less.

- Minimum wage does NOT limit our ability to compete globally, but strengthens it.
+ Minimum wage wastes money that could be spent elsewhere. Also, foreign countries can invest more into what they choose giving them the upper hand. Ive explained why it lowers the global economy, now you actually give a reason why it strengthens it.

- I read a story about a California McDonald's outsourcing the drive-thru speaker to Mexico. While that's a very scary thing globalization and Minimum wage is still beneficial to America. Minimum wage, like globalization, encourages people to compete and thus improve themselves. The fact is, there will ALWAYS be competition for a job. Even with minimum wage, there simply aren't enough jobs to hire everybody. By encouraging entrepreneurship and skill development, Minimum wage and globalization make people better. It's not like the drive-thru window is the only job out there either, it just means unskilled laborers head towards different ones.
+ This is an example of how the minimum wage make Americans want to invest in forign countries, lowering our economy and strengthening foreign ones.

- There is always someone who will work for less to beat out the next guy.
and
Businesses want to pay the lowest wage possible to their workers to maximize profit.
so
Minimum wage exists to create competition based on skills, not wage.
+ Shouldnt a company be able to decide whether skills or money is more valuable? For the government to decide that a company needs to spend more money on skill is intrusive and ridiculous. People will only do so much work, for so much money and if people work too cheaply, that is their decision.

- It's not like minimum wage is a lot of money (as I said earlier, 11000 a year for one person), so I don't see how it hurts businesses.
+ Thats a lot of money for one company to invest. That money could be ionvested in something more beneficial.

PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING PREVIOUS MADE ARGUMENTS AS WELL:
-The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs.
-A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills.
-Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices.
-Non-profit charitable organizations are hurt by the minimum wage.
-The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business.
-A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanize duties previously held by humans.
-Cost-of-living differences in various areas of the country make a universal minimum wage difficult to set.
-The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.
Ahking

Con

People can NOT protect themselves by simply quitting and choosing jobs.

Minimum wage ONLY affects certain jobs like fast-food, mall stores, etc etc. There is a HUGE competition for those jobs and without Minimum wage, everyone would be FORCED to lower their pay standards because there is always somebody who will ask for less.

With Minimum wage, competition for the job will be about SKILLS and not the LOWEST BIDDER.

I am a college student and
A. I have no trouble finding work
B. I CAN'T work for lower than minimum wage because I have BASIC LIVING EXPENSES such as gas to get to work, books for classes, and food.
C. I don't have time to work for 1$ an hour.

Without minimum wage, I would have to work for MUCH LESS than 6.50$ an hour or else I won't be hired. And even if I was, I still wouldn't be able to buy books or drive my car.

Minimum wage is not INTRUSIVE. It is SUPPORTIVE. People who work for 1$ an hour say that their work is only worth that much, whereas to the Business, it could be worth A LOT MORE. For 1$ an hour, the business could be making $100/hr from that person's work. Businesses can take advantage of people because most unskilled laborers (like teens) have NO CHOICE but to work for that job. Minimum wage protects people from BUSINESS and OTHER PEOPLE.

You said: "Minimum wage wastes money that could be spent elsewhere. Also, foreign countries can invest more into what they choose giving them the upper hand. Ive explained why it lowers the global economy, now you actually give a reason why it strengthens it."

It WASTES money?? It wastes money on PEOPLE?? People who need food, clothing, and THINGS?? This explanation fails to grasp how an economy works. People spend money and businesses sell things. Everyone invests or saves. If PEOPLE had more money, then PEOPLE could invest or buy things, and THAT strengthens the economy. It all must balance out.

You said: "Shouldnt a company be able to decide whether skills or money is more valuable?"

I've picked up a common theme in your arguments. You believe that people are invincible, therefore people should be able to do whatever they want.

I encourage you to read about the Robber-Baron period in American history. That business mindset did not work out well back then for the country.

"PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING PREVIOUS MADE ARGUMENTS AS WELL:"

As for all the strict arguments you ask me to answer, I will not. I will not address them until you back them up. As they stand, they are opinions with no credibility and I do not want to touch them.
Debate Round No. 2
policydebategod

Pro

- Minimum wage ONLY affects certain jobs like fast-food, mall stores, etc etc. There is a HUGE competition for those jobs and without Minimum wage, everyone would be FORCED to lower their pay standards because there is always somebody who will ask for less.
+ That is their choice? Since when is it the governments right to stop capitalism by forcing business to pay people certain amounts.

- A. I have no trouble finding work
B. I CAN'T work for lower than minimum wage because I have BASIC LIVING EXPENSES such as gas to get to work, books for classes, and food.
C. I don't have time to work for 1$ an hour.
+ Fine. Cross college students off your list maybe you are the exception but there are still charities, business, children, etc. being hurt by minimum wage.

- Without minimum wage, I would have to work for MUCH LESS than 6.50$ an hour or else I won't be hired. And even if I was, I still wouldn't be able to buy books or drive my car.
+ You cant always get what you want. You cant just get handed more money than u deserve. Its unfair.

- Minimum wage is not INTRUSIVE. It is SUPPORTIVE. People who work for 1$ an hour say that their work is only worth that much, whereas to the Business, it could be worth A LOT MORE. For 1$ an hour, the business could be making $100/hr from that person's work. Businesses can take advantage of people because most unskilled laborers (like teens) have NO CHOICE but to work for that job. Minimum wage protects people from BUSINESS and OTHER PEOPLE.
+ You just said that teens have to work these jobs. This means that yu agree that teens will not be hired if the wage gets higher because experienced adults will get hired.
The minimum wage is supportive of beggars not th hard workingpeople who build businesses with their own time and money. It steps all over their rights to own their business.

- It WASTES money?? It wastes money on PEOPLE?? People who need food, clothing, and THINGS?? This explanation fails to grasp how an economy works. People spend money and businesses sell things. Everyone invests or saves. If PEOPLE had more money, then PEOPLE could invest or buy things, and THAT strengthens the economy. It all must balance out.
+ Businesses spend their money and invest it in useful things like new technology that can make America greater while civilians spend their money on potato chips. While our businesses are loosing money, foreign businesses are investing their money and the American businesses loose and foreign businesses grow stronger. This is already happening.

- I encourage you to read about the Robber-Baron period in American history. That business mindset did not work out well back then for the country.
+ I'm not familiar with this but we have new technology now, new rights and making money is greater and easier.

-The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs. This is a fact. Please explain your justification for thousands of job losses or find a negating fact. Not answering an argument is very frustrting and proves that you either agree with the argument or are incapable of refuting it. Please answer all unanswered arguments. In actual debate, not answering an argument automatically makes it true.
-A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills. Teenagers will be less likely to get low paying jobs when the salary is so high because experienced adults will be hired in their stead.
-Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices. Businesses can invest in things that will make their customers happier and wont have to worry about money as much allowing them to pay their workers more.
-Non-profit charitable organizations are hurt by the minimum wage when they want to pay the homeless or other volunteers.
-The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business because they will invest in too in employees much and make too small a profit.
-A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanize duties previously held by humans. Why pay a human to do a mediocre job when a one time fee machine does a perfect job every time?
-Cost-of-living differences in various areas of the country make a universal minimum wage difficult to set.
-The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.

YOU SHOULD VOTE FOR PRO BECAUSE I REFUTED ALL OF HIS ARGUMENTS IN A REASONABLE FASHION AND HE DID NOT ANSWER MY ARGUMENTS AT LEAST IN A TIME WHERE I COULD RESPOND TO THEM. THIS IS UNFAIR. ANDI MADE SEVERAL GOOD ARGUMENTS ANSWERED AND UNANSWERED WHILE ANSWERING ALL OF HIS.
Ahking

Con

In closing, I'd like to say that while people should have the right to pay people what they want and demand the wage the want, people should be have the right to take advantage of people through this.

Minimum wage protects the unskilled laborer, no matter what his age is or how "good" he is (at being unskilled). It deters the "race to the bottom" for labor, and it prevents businesses from monopolizing on low wages.

There will always be unemployment, but it just means that those who are employed are better off, and the barriers to unskilled employment are not too great anyhow.

The effects minimum wage has on businesses are very small, unless you are talking about an extremely small business that doesn't make more than 100K a year in revenue. These small businesses ONLY are hurt by this. The rest can handle minimum wage.

Good debate, I look forward to more.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by policydebategod 9 years ago
policydebategod
I noticed that every1 who voted is a democrat. Surprise surprise. I bet there was no bias here.
Posted by Ahking 9 years ago
Ahking
just a quick correction,

What I meant to type in the last argument was: "In closing... people should NOT have the right to take advantage of people"

not 'people should have the right to take advantage of people' lol
Posted by Thoreau 9 years ago
Thoreau
"+ Fine. Cross college students off your list maybe you are the exception but there are still charities, business, children, etc. being hurt by minimum wage."

Charities have volunteers. Children, if anything would be HELPED by minimum wage (more money). Business would not be hurt, because paying people a reasonable amount of money keeps them happier, thereby increasing work efficacy (no sources on this, however it is empirically proven).

"+ You cant always get what you want. You cant just get handed more money than u deserve. Its unfair."

Getting paid less than you need to survive isn't fair either, and would happen without minimum wage.

"+ I'm not familiar with this but we have new technology now, new rights and making money is greater and easier."

Yeah, new rights like MINIMUM WAGE. In the early 1900's, workers were exploited and drastically underpaid simply because there was always someone more desparate, who would work for less money. Laws, such as a minimum wage, were NEEDED to keep people from DYING AS A RESULT OF THEIR JOB.
Posted by killa_connor 9 years ago
killa_connor
"While that's a very scary thing globalization and Minimum wage is still beneficial to America. Minimum wage, like globalization, encourages people to compete and thus improve themselves."

Agreed but I think you also note that globalization is an effective loop-hole to minimum wage laws because companies (like macdonalds) are always finding new ways to tap into a poorer and less protected work force that they can use as cheap labor.

"You cant always get what you want. You cant just get handed more money than u deserve. Its unfair."

Pro - for someone so familiar with formal debate and addressing arguments, don't you see how this comment is completely unrelated? This isn't a refutation of Con's point that without a minimum wage the wages would undoubtedly drop for students / untrained work force, instead it's a bizarre judgment of what he and other students (like myself) "deserves".

Overall, good debate guys.
Posted by arrivaltime 9 years ago
arrivaltime
I'd like this debate better if it was realistic

I voted for con because the arguments were a bit more reasoned out, also I think the response "People can quit and choose jobs" is really, really weak.
Posted by policydebategod 9 years ago
policydebategod
sorry i took so long to respond. finals are a b*tch.
Posted by policydebategod 9 years ago
policydebategod
in actual debate we do this. its called line by line. its not hard because u flow the debate by writing down everything they say.
Posted by bmurph517 9 years ago
bmurph517
Why do debates on this site sometimes become

-you said this
=i say this to that

-you say this
=well thats wrong

In a debate it is pretty difficult to quote your opponent verbatim and then answer. Putting the debate into a speech makes it sound more professional.
Posted by Ahking 9 years ago
Ahking
Good, the timer stops when we're both offline.
See you tomorrow.
Posted by Ahking 9 years ago
Ahking
Since its clear you're asleep and I will soon be, I invite you to continue this debate tomorrow using our previous arguments.
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