The Instigator
libertarian
Pro (for)
Losing
54 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
60 Points

Minimum Wage should be abolished.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/18/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,806 times Debate No: 4089
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (34)

 

libertarian

Pro

1. The vast majority of economists believe the minimum wage law costs the economy thousands of jobs.
2. Teenagers, workers in training, college students, interns, and part-time workers all have their options and opportunities limited by the minimum wage.
3. A low-paying job remains an entry point for those with few marketable skills.
4. Abolishing the minimum wage will allow businesses to achieve greater efficiency and lower prices.
5. When you force American companies to pay a certain wage, you increase the likelihood that those companies will outsource jobs to foreign workers, where labor is much cheaper.
6. Non-profit charitable organizations are hurt by the minimum wage.
7. The minimum wage can drive some small companies out of business.
8. A minimum wage gives businesses an additional incentive to mechanize duties previously held by humans.
9. Cost-of-living differences in various areas of the country make a universal minimum wage difficult to set.
10. The minimum wage creates a competitive advantage for foreign companies, providing yet another obstacle in the ability of American companies to compete globally.
11. The minimum wage law is just another example of government condescendingly controlling our actions and destroying personal choice. Citizens do have the ability to say no to a lower wage.
Danielle

Con

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, your entire R1 was plaigarized word-for-word from this uncited source: (http://www.balancedpolitics.org...), so that alone should be grounds for your disqualification. From this point forward I have absolutely no desire to hear what you have to say since your arguments are not your own. I'm assuming your rebuttal would have also been taken directly from that site. If Joe Messerli from balancedpolitics.org wants to debate me on this subject, he can challenge me. You have now lost all credibility to me as far as being a debater on this site -- no wonder you mysteriously closed your previous accounts.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I were debating Joe Messerli, here's what I would say:

1. Economists acknowledge that having a minimum wage affects supply and demand. Joe writes, "For example, imagine a janitorial job was advertised for hire. If the wage is $100 per hour, thousands of people would want the job. If the wage was $1 per hour, you probably wouldn't find anyone to do it. Conversely, if the government forced the employer to pay at least $7 per hour, the employer might decide not to hire a janitor at all, instead opting to have other staff pick up the duties." While this may be true, it does not apply to the argument regarding minimum wage, because we see this happening in this country all of the time - especially when the economy is bad like it is right now (even though we have a minimum wage).

When companies are slow, they will fire employees and other employees will to in turn pick up the slack. Thus this concept of "supply and demand" of jobs does not only apply to the minimum wage, and should therefore not be grounds for abolishing it... unless of course these economists agree that we should abolish the act of firing people all-together when a company is struggling, which obviously would never happen.

Further on this point, Joe writes, "Just because there is no minimum wage doesn't mean companies can pay whatever they want. Would you work a dishwashing job that paid 25 cents per hour? Would anyone?" Well Joe, I personally would not wash dishes for 25 cents an hour; however, a completely impoverished individual or AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT might actually work for that low wage. Therefore abolishing the minimum wage would only mean that illegal citizens will continue taking jobs from Americans. Thus Joe's point about outsourcing really has no relevance; who cares if foreigners are doing American jobs in other countries or on our own soil? In fact I'd rather they stay in their respective countries and do our jobs, that way at least our tax dollars won't be paying for their stay.

2. Joe's second point makes absolutely no sense. Even when he expands on this point later on the site, his claims still make little to no sense and is dripping with hypocrisy and misinformation. If my cheating opponent wishes to elaborate on Joe's point via his own reasoning or perhaps from another plaigarized source, perhaps I'll continue debating it. For now I simply deem it undebatable as it contains absolutely zero validity.

3. Again, Joe provides absolutely no argument when it comes to his third ridiculous contention. He provides no proof to back up his claims. For instance, he writes, "If you allow businesses to pay smaller entry wages, they will offer more opportunities to jobseekers with no experience." That is completely ridiculous. If I own a McDonalds and I need 10 employees and pay them $10 an hour, having only to pay them at $5 per hour doesn't mean that I'll hire ten more employees. It means I'll keep the 10 employees I need and already have, and instead pocket the profit. This again helps business owners (the wealthy) but not the ones who are holding these low wage positions.

4. Joe elaborates on this same exact point with his fourth contention; however, I have already refuted it in my previous example. In fact he uses McDonalds in his very own example: "Say a McDonald's franchise has a budget of $70 per hour to pay worker wages (without considering benefits and taxes). If that McDonald's must pay $7 per hour, it can hire 10 workers. If it must only pay $5 per hour, it can hire 14 workers. If you go to get a burger, in which situation are you more likely to get it faster?" -- Here he is assuming that more workers = more efficiency. It's simply not true. In fact, many times more workers = LESS efficiency. This point is null and completely void.

5. Ah, good ol' outsourcing. This contention is COMICAL to say the least. Here Joe is trying to scare us into abolishing the minimum wage because to not would supposedly mean outsourcing American jobs according to his logic. Well FIRST of all, if we get rid of the minimum wage and pay a rate of say $2 an hour for any job, he is right that no American would probably accept those wages given the cost of living. Therefore only one who could not legally find work would accept such a position, meaning LESS JOBS FOR AMERICANS. This is rooted in absolute truth ~ today we see many immigrants performing jobs for much less than an American citizen would work for.

6. I'll admit that Joe's 6th point about hurting charitable organizations sounds convincing. However this is simply distorted logic. If a charitable organization hired STELLAR employees (even paying them much HIGHER than the miniumum wage), those employees who excel at their jobs would be able to use their creativity and available resources to generate even more of a profit than if just volunteers were working there without pay.

7. The minimum wage can drive small companies out of business, eh? Well so can competition - should we eliminate all of that? What my opponent is suggesting is that we should interfere with capitalism. This is wrong. In the business world, it's survival of the fittest. Many small companies are able to offer great services and/or products that draw them a lot of revenue and profit. In that case, the minimum wage is not a big deal. Further, what Joe is suggesting is that it's not okay to let a business go under, but it IS okay to pay a worker a miniscule salary and watch entire families as well as the economy collapse. More about this later.

8. Here Joe is attempting to blame the minimum wage for machines taking over jobs previously held by humans. The truth is, no such relationship exists. Employers us machines instead of humans for a number of reasons, including safety, efficiency, quality and cost-benfits not regarding the minium wage, but in the sense that they won't have a machine calling out of work sick, or worry about paying a machine any benefit, etc. Consider the fact that machines have been used to replace human labor in the United States since the Industrial Revolution back in the late 1700s. Meanwhile, the minimum wage wasn't established until 1938... so something doesn't add up.

9. It's absolutely perfect that Joe brings up the cost of living in OPPOSITION to the minimum wage. I agree with him that it varies in different parts of the country. However the minimum wage VARIES IN EACH STATE so this argument really has no value. Plus, the minimum wage encourages workers to migrate to parts of the country where they can establish a decent life making less money, instead of contributing to the over population of cities where they will struggle.

10. My opponent... or Joe... should elaborate if they want me to touch on this point all-together.

11. And finally, the US isn't imposing on people's rights by mandating a minimum wage. They are simply looking out for the rights of the individual, the same way corporate welfare looks out for the well-being of big business. I'd love to elaborate further on this point and many of my own; however, I wasted characters earlier by pointing out my opponent's dishonesty. Grr.
Debate Round No. 1
libertarian

Pro

libertarian forfeited this round.
Danielle

Con

Remember:

- If the minimum wage were abolished, companies would reduce their worker's compensation. Those who depend on that income would now be impoverished citizens. This would only lead to an increase in the dependency of programs like welfare, an increase in the gap between the rich and the poor, and an increase in crime (i.e. drug dealing) for people who could not legally earn a reasonable living wage. This in turn would lead to more crowded prisons, an increase in taxes to sustain those prisons, etc.

- Lower wages for workers will not mean lower prices for consumers. And even if the prices of SOME products dropped... say by $1... this would only benefit the middle and upper class; the lower class (who hold those minimum wage jobs) would not have any money to pump back into the economy. Ironically the lower class contains some of the biggest spenders, so this would overall be bad for the United States.

- If people chose not to take on certain jobs because the wages were too low, illegal immigrants would take those jobs instead off-the-books... meaning more Americans out of work.

- This would only be successful at making the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. However aren't the poor - earning only minimum wage - poor enough?!
Debate Round No. 2
libertarian

Pro

I'm conceeding this debate. You're right. It was unfair and dishonest of me to use arguments that were not my own. It was a time issue. I am sorry.
Danielle

Con

Alright so since my opponent has conceded this debate, I think it's only fair that I stop responding with tons and tons of arguments. There's nothing for me to respond to anyway. I mean I think it's really shady that there was such a "time issue" when he challenged me to this debate and plagerized in R1... so there was no time limit... (which btw I didn't ask for this debate, so that's complete nonsense), but whatever. Vote how you will and beware of plagerism in the future regardless of who you're versing. That's all :)
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by CaliBeachgirl 8 years ago
CaliBeachgirl
Thanks!
How we can get Americans to know all that I do, at my young age, is by listening to talk radio. I've been listening ever sice I was 14. It doesn't try to make up your mind for you, (like our current media does)it makes you think for yourself.

Keep up the good work :)
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
Calibeachgirl,
Good job on that. How can we get 51% of america to become as smart as you? That's all we need-- just 51% of america informed.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
Minimum wage is doin gnobody any good. It has caused unecessary inflation, which quickly eliminates any real benefit from the a raise. It also makes it difficult for the U.S. to compete with countries who do not have a minimum wage. This makes our products less desirable and helps to create the trade defiicits that weaken our currency even further. Unions do even more damage. We all pay for the seemingly wonderful ideas of the uniformed 51 percent.
Posted by CaliBeachgirl 8 years ago
CaliBeachgirl
Define Wealthy! 50k and up a year? thats not wealthy. You people want to take from the middle class to give to the poor isn't that unconsitutional????? The well-fair(or whatever its called that gives to people who DON"T work not always because they can't) system has done the most damage to our country.

An Example: If John makes 10 dollars an hour working as a manager for a company and Mark works under John and gets the minimum wage when the minimum wage goes up do you think that John wages will go up??? NOOO of course not! This will increase inflation and make Johns wages worth less.(yeah i know there are other factors to inflation but this is a big one)

Enough Said.
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
I worked at The Gap when I was a teenager also...

Anyway Cali's point makes no sense; a lot of things cause inflation - not just increasing the minimum wage by a dollar or two. However LOWERING the minimum wage = taking money from the wealthy and SLIGHTLY distributing it to the hard-working poor. This would HELP the economy by making it possible for people to act as consumers, and actually purchase American goods for a change instead of forcing them to seek foreign goods/prices.
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
Lwerd, You deserved minimum wage. You could have found work elswhere that paid more. I use the last comment by Cali as my example. A meer teenager making more than mimimum wage, how is it possible.
Posted by CaliBeachgirl 9 years ago
CaliBeachgirl
Oh goodness. I'm new to this site but I am an Teen worker. I do get paid over the minimum wage. When the minimum wage goes up it hurts the economy! It makes the money I earn worth that much less. That will cause INFLATION!! we all know how much good that does to our economy!
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
Thanks...?

I understand that you might be opposed to the minimum wage, but still none of what you said has effectively argued my very valid points of what would happen should this wage be abolished. And for the record, I have worked a few jobs that paid minimum wage (i.e. The Gap), and honestly, most people would be lucky to get on my level.
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
Lwerd, I did vote for you though, your opponent is a plagiarizer and forfeits the debate.
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
Umm I would contend that anyone making less than $13 dollars an hour is impoverished by American standards. Lwerd, you are a good debater but only made attempts at why the points were bad. What are some good points other than the ones listed. I for one have never known anyone who has earned minimum wage nor have I ever seen a job in the classifieds that ever offered to pay minimum wage. Quite frankly if you ever meet someone who works for minimum wage you need to run from that person as fast as you can because they will most certainly bring you down to their level.
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