The Instigator
clarkmcc
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
Darius2015
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Minimum wage, is it bad?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
clarkmcc
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/24/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 693 times Debate No: 79014
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

clarkmcc

Con

Layout of debate:
Round 1 - Acceptance
Round 2 - Opening arguments
Round 3 - Rebuttles

Round 4 - Rebuttles


Round 5 - Closing statements (no new arguments)

My stance: Minimum wage is harmful to small businesses and as such should be abolished.
Your stance: Pro minimum wage.
Darius2015

Pro

Clarkmcc,

I kindly accept your invitation to debate this point.

My opening argument is that the minimum wage is a good thing and I support it. The effect on small business is irrelevant as the owner of such a firm is aware of this when they accept the responsibility to be an owner of a small business. Inflation changes and when a business opens, or starts out, and/or chooses to employ staff (which is their choice) they consider this point into their expenditure.

Minimum wage ensures that the employee, who in fact is a human being, has the right to earn a wage that is comparative to the job role they are performing, and hence, earn enough money to provide for themselves and/or their family.
I would also suggest that the minimum wage has been calculated in accordance with the cost of living in that particular country.

*Point of information - My opinion is that the minimum wage in the UK falls far below the standard of living costs. I will go into this further at a later stage in my opening argument. Please see below for UK minimum wage statistics. This is prior to tax and national insurance being deducted!!!!!!

https://www.gov.uk...

I also note that the minimum wage in the USA does vary from state to state:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

*This state by state calculation does not happen in the UK, therefore people who live in more expensive areas of the UK are still governed by the same rules. I appreciate and concur that the UK is much smaller than the USA however, that does not deter from the point that certain areas have more expensive living costs than others. For instance, workers in London are only entitled to the same pay as people in other areas of poorer areas, say the North of England where I am from. Yes, there is something called, "London Weighting Allowance" which, the government puts in place for certain workers who work/live in London as they know it is more expensive to live in, but this does not apply for people who would be obtaining the minimum wage. The people who qualify for this are usually, in some way, skilled or qualified in what they do.

For example:

Nurses, Police, Doctors, Fireman, Teachers, Skilled Engineers, IT, Finance workers and so on, and as such earn more than the minimum wage due to their skills.

To put my argument into perspective. There must be a minimum wage in order to get people out to work. It is very common to hear people on the benefits system in the UK, as I'm sure is common in the USA too to say...."What's the point in me going to work when I earn more living of the state?" I repeat this point as I hear it daily in the UK. "WHAT'S THE POINT IN ME GOING TO WORK WHEN I EARN MORE LIVING OFF THE STATE?"

Surely this cannot be right.

The below is a typical example of the current situation in the UK which was aired on national, prime time television.

https://www.youtube.com...

There must be incentive for someone to drag themselves out of bed at 5am to go and work. If this incentive is not there then why would people bother working? It gives that person the excuse to say, "minimum wage isn't enough", "it's easier to live off the state". So, there must be incentive and unfortunately, in this day and age, the only two things that drag someone out of bed are, 1. Money/Providing for others.......or 2. Passion in what they do.

Moreover, if that person is claiming from the state, then they will also be claiming for living allowances. The state will assist in paying for their living expenses, such as housing, bills, disability and even taxi fares! Surely it is more beneficial for the minimum wage to be imposed so that people can contribute to the country they live in?

If the worker gets up and goes to work, that gives them a moral pride in what they are doing. For the country, they are paying tax and putting into the "system". If the wage falls below the amount that would assist them to live in a modern world, what's the point in them turning up in the first place?

*Final point of information
I put it to you that without a minimum wage there is no incentive to work.

I put it to you that by giving the worker an acceptable wage they will then be a productive citizen and put into the system that we all pay into.

I put it to you that by abolishing the minimum wage, you are not only encouraging poverty, you are condoning poverty as people will work for less than the required wage, hence, not through tax and the appropriate reported channels, hence criminal activities. I believe your argument has no substance, I believe it supports the rich getting rich and the poor getting poorer.

I finally believe that as a small business, it's good practice to protect your employees. Retention of them is key, by offering a good wage, which is above minimum, you will not only attract better staff but ensure they stay with you. By doing this you are promoting your business in a positive light.
Debate Round No. 1
clarkmcc

Con


“Minimum wage ensures that the employee, who in fact is a human being, has the right to earn a wage that is comparative to the job role they are performing…”


Let’s look at a job that is not comparative to the job rule they are performing. Flipping burgers for example at McDonalds would be a job that should merit less than minimum wage. What is the work worth to the company, not to the government?


History and current events are riddled with the examples of government getting involved in the free market and in every case it offsets the balance that comes naturally to a market that can govern itself.


“I appreciate and concur that the UK is much smaller than the USA however, that does not deter from the point that certain areas have more expensive living costs than others.”


Look at this example which will further cover your statements about the UK and more expensive living areas.


Joe Shmoe Inc. has a job opening as a fresh business in the world. They need a janitor to run their facilities which requires no special knowledge or skills and as such doesn’t require a high pay.


In the free market environment (that is to say no minimum wage) Joe Shmoe would have to provide pay for a job that someone decides is worth their time. Nobody will work for Joe Shmoe if they pay 25 cents and hour and as such Joe Shmoe is forced to increase their wages until somebody accepts or until Joe Shmoe decides it’s not worth it to hire a janitor at this early stage in the company’s development.


“There must be incentive for someone to drag themselves out of bed at 5am to go and work. If this incentive is not there then why would people bother working?”


You see the incentive comes naturally because on one hand a business needs a job done and on the other hand the worker needs the work. If the worker can’t get the pay he wants then the worker will go elsewhere and the business will be forced to increase their wages if they want to stay in business and have employees.


“If this incentive is not there then why would people bother working? It gives that person the excuse to say, "minimum wage isn't enough", "it's easier to live off the state".”


It is unfortunate that there are so many people that are just fine accepting someone else’s hard earned money, however this is a topic for a separate debate and we should be focusing on the wages for the people that actually go to work and accept wages rather than the people that accept government donations.


It all comes down to balance and if the government does not get involved the free market increases in growth. In the last 200 years thanks to the free market in the US, we’ve increased technologically far more than we have in the last 2000 years.


No companies can get workers unless they offer high enough wages and the companies will naturally raise the wages without the government getting involved (again)



Darius2015

Pro

I must start by using a quote from your argument, with respect:

Let's look at a job that is not comparative to the job rule they are performing. Flipping burgers for example at McDonalds would be a job that should merit less than minimum wage. What is the work worth to the company, not to the government?

Firstly, may I say I feel that this comment is not only poor but unadvised. "Flipping burgers" as you say, may not be the most glamorous job in the world, but it still requires a form of discipline. The worker has still got to get up out of bed or, as is normal these days, work night shifts, therefore enabling them to be paid for unsociable hours.
Besides that point, as you have brought one of the largest, most well known food retailers into the subject, I believe your point in this aspect is invalid as your reference in your subject argument was in relation to "small business". McDonald's is far from small but I will stick with it for my point below and further argue from you initial point of small business:

*Point of information:
To answer you question about the workers "work worth" to the company. Massive basically. Let me apply some simple maths to this. When I walk into my local McDonald's, which is rare. I see that there on average, there are 5 to 8 staff, you may have more in your local franchise. I would guess that the average wage is about "8 - "10 per person/per hour as they adhere to the minimum wage. Can you even comprehend how much a franchise earns per hour, thousands. "8 is nothing and plus, Mr Tax man gets a nibble at that amount!

To take your argument to your initial statement "small businesses":

Let's say a worker for a self catering burger van (sole trader). Again, they may not be doing the most skilled job but they are dealing with customers when they could be at home with their family. I would expect communication skills, basic maths and time management. If it were my van/business, I would pay above minimum wage as I don't see it as unskilled. If I sell twenty burgers and hour for "4 I make a good profit if I pay my employee a minimum wage.

My respects, I will not be commenting on the "Joe Shmoe Inc" comment, it makes no sense for arguments sake and it will lose writing space.

You made a point of the below:

I said:

"There must be incentive for someone to drag themselves out of bed at 5am to go and work. If this incentive is not there then why would people bother working?"

You said:

"You see the incentive comes naturally because on one hand a business needs a job done and on the other hand the worker needs the work. If the worker can't get the pay he wants then the worker will go elsewhere and the business will be forced to increase their wages if they want to stay in business and have employees."

*

Unfortunately, I strongly disagree. Incentive, doesn't come naturally for most, in fact for very few. It requires motivation as I mentioned earlier such as money or passion. If the state provides an easier option, it is taken. Again, as stated earlier in this debate, as a responsible "small business" owner, I would see it as my responsibility to offer a good wage (above minimum) to my staff in order to retain them.

I refer back to the initial argument you challenged and again ask you to say and prove, with factual evidence, why the minimum wage is a bad thing?

I believe that I have put the argument across for Pro, but you have yet to give me any evidential statistics, fact, argument or other to support your argument.

I invite and look forward to your information.
Debate Round No. 2
clarkmcc

Con

Well said!

In response to your question I will prove to you and viewers why I beleive the minimum wage is bad.

You see, when a company is forced to increase the price that they pay to get work done, i.e. overhead, in this case worker compensation and other expenses, this drives the price of the product that they supply up contributing to inflation. Who likes inflation? I would venture to guess that nobody likes inflation as it increases the price of goods and services.

It's as simple as that, you increase the costs that a company has to pay to stay alive, they increase the price of the goods and services they provide to stay alive, this causes inflation.

To expound:

Let me take a moment to apply this all to myself. Lets say that the minimum wage where I live is $15 an hour. I'm a photographer and videographer and a designer. I charge $15/hour for my design consulting. However thanks to the minimum wage Mr. Burger Flipper at McDonalds also gets paid $15/hour. How does this make sense? I worked for hundreds maybe thousands of hour learning my trade and becoming good at what I do and I get paid the same amount as a dropout from highschool could get paid. Does that motiviate me or anybody to become good at something? Absolutely not! When someone finds that they can get the same amount of money with no education as someone that's been to school for 10+ years, how does that motivate anyone to become good at something?

Looking forward to your response!
Darius2015

Pro

Darius2015 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
clarkmcc

Con

Pro has forfeited this round. Con wins all previous arguments. As there are more rounds, pro may propose new arguments.
Darius2015

Pro

Darius2015 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
clarkmcc

Con

clarkmcc forfeited this round.
Darius2015

Pro

Darius2015 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 2 years ago
Midnight1131
clarkmccDarius2015Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF