The Instigator
VenomousNinja
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
DucoNihilum
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Minumim Wage: Should it become a reality?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/8/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,316 times Debate No: 2472
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (39)
Votes (10)

 

VenomousNinja

Pro

Minumum wage should become a reality simply because everyone with an occupation would be assured a good amount of money. Enough money to support a family and/or surviving in life (getting food, clothes, ect.).
It's as simple as that.
DucoNihilum

Con

Minimum wage laws like this are somewhat unrealistic and generally fail to help the poor. This money has to come from somewhere, busniess will not simply take a loss. People working for low wages are working low wages for a reason- their labor has far less value than more skilled laborers. They should be paid market value for their labor, not some government mandated price.
Debate Round No. 1
VenomousNinja

Pro

Just because their labor is in low demand and value does not mean that they are not human, and since they are human, they need money to survive in life and buy food and tools and water and such.

Humans should all be treated the same, however, without minimum wage laws, the chance of all humans getting treated at least similarly in the economy is low.
DucoNihilum

Con

They do need money to survive- but that is not the duty of the employer to get this- it is the duty of the employee- the person to be able to. Working the bare minimum, you should be able to have enough to survive by yourself, so long as you work hard. This is expected, bare minimum jobs are meant for beginning workers such as teenagers.

They can still make money, while it might take a little more work for them to make money they can still make it.

Humans are all treated the same- they have equality of opportunity. Everybody has the same opportunity to get ahead as anybody else (from a government standpoint)- some might succeed, some might fail. It's the game of life. Minimum wage causes problems, included in that is the fact that money does not come from nowhere.

Employees have to be fired, or prices have to rise- either way it either evens itself out, or somebody will lose their job.
Debate Round No. 2
VenomousNinja

Pro

"They do need money to survive- but that is not the duty of the employer to get this- it is the duty of the employee"

However, when the employer accepted the employee as his employee, then he took on a responsibility for said employee. This responsibility includes paying them enough so that they may purchase food and clothes and other items essential for living in our society, and have a little cash left over.

"Working the bare minimum, you should be able to have enough to survive by yourself"

As of now there is no bare minimum.

"They can still make money, while it might take a little more work for them to make money they can still make it."

However, in the time that it takes a little extra work to be completed, disastrous things might happen. The employee might get cancer, and the employer might die and the employee will be grieving and not get their money, or some life changing event might happen that will leave the receiver of the event with a disability, whether it be the employee or the employer.

"Humans are all treated the same- they have equality of opportunity."

Then why do we have words such as 'racism' or 'sexism'?

"Everybody has the same opportunity to get ahead as anybody else (from a government standpoint)- "

The government, however, does not always have the correct standpoint. They see things differently than regular people.

"Employees have to be fired, or prices have to rise"

Not necessarily, since most companies have money left over from one month that they did not do anything with, this money could be used to pay the minimum wage for minimum wage workers.
DucoNihilum

Con

I think the key to this debate is our differences in the understanding of responsibility. You do not seem to understand the idea of individual responsibility, the idea that somebody should be responsible for his or herself. You believe that other people should take care of you, as you said in the opening lines of your closing argument, "[Employers take on] responsibility for [employees]" This is the key problem with your position- you want somebody else to take care of you, to take care of other people 'somebody else'.

It is not the responsibility of the government, nor the business that hires an employee to take care of said employee. It is ONLY the responsibility of him or herself. He or she is grown up, and should be able to handle taking care of them self. Some may be better than others, but the fact remains that people are, and should be accountable to themselves- in other words, they need to take care of themselves. They need to be responsible, not children.

I don't understand your argument under 'no bare minimum', If I were to take that as you said it then nobody would be making any money in this economy. That is clearly not true. People are generally making more than one cent an hour. You might consider the 'bare minimum', the 'bare minimum to survive very well'- something like 15 dollars an hour. I find the 'bare minimum' to be a low skilled worker working in a free market, maybe making 5 dollars an hour. Sure, people making, for example, 15 dollars an hour are doing well right now- but if everybody were to make a minimum of 15 dollars an hour many many poor people would be forced to be fired, or prices would have to rise. Money does not come out of thin air- markets MUST remain efficient, the invisible hand forces this. Furthermore, the wages the average worker makes right now are great in comparison to less free markets. Compare the average earner of the US (Around 40K Yearly) to the average earner in North Korea, a socialist paradise..... Most of North Korea is in poverty, they can't afford very much food, yet alone what most poor can afford here, Clothing, Food, Large houses, VCR's, TV's, Microwaves, Cars, ETC ETC ETC. Poverty is relative- and in the US it is generally simply class envy.

You argue that the time it takes to do that 'little extra work' is more time for a disaster. This argument is illogical in many ways, for one, you could use this argument to support the government having absolutely NOBODY work- ever. In the time it takes regular labor to be completed, any employee can get cancer- so should the government offer free money to everybody? Should the government simply raise minimum wage to 60,000 dollars a minute so that we are all much safer? I think even you would agree that that would be absurd, busniesses would go out of busniess, and the economy would quickly fail into revolution or war.

Racism, sexism, and personal views do not prevent equality of opportunity. Even if racism prevents somebody from getting a job, they still have the same opportunity as everybody else- just not in regards to private individuals. The government still affords them all rights to do whatever they want, so long as they do not interfere with private property. When I said they have the same opportunity from a government standpoint I meant that from the standpoint of less government interference. You are not any longer oppressed by the government for simply being black, you are equal in the eyes of the government.

Your idea that busniesses have massive money that they could use to pay a higher minimum wage are farce. While some larger corporations might make profits that seem larger than other busniesses, most profit is reinvested in the company to expand it. They can't refuse to expand or better themselves just because of government oppression that you recommend. In fact, a great deal of small businesses do not have all that much money to just 'give away', small busniesses are the ones that would be hurt most by these sorts of policies. They do not have much money left over, and they generally hire as few people as possible (They can't afford any waste at all)- Their already high prices can't be risen any more, so what do they do? Try to deal with one less person or go out of busniess- due to government oppression and people who support it, like you.
Debate Round No. 3
39 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
It'll be on universal health care, but it will have to wait till after the weekend.
Posted by Advocate123 9 years ago
Advocate123
I'm waiting for the challenge. Pick a topic.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
If you can't even figure out that you need to give me unemployment rates to back up a claim about unemployment, then your IQ wasn't exactly impressive in the first place.

So unions use the minimum wage to base their negotiations on, right? Is that your claim? So what do unions do during times like the last 10 years when the minimum wage stays stagnant? Do they show up for negotiations and just accept a pay cut for all of their members as inflation marches on? Obviously, they base their negotiations off of other things besides the minimum wage. That's simple logic. It seems that my intellectualism serves me better than your oversimplifications and complete lack of supporting evidence.

Most politicians do not know that the minimum wage increases unemployment. They have dogmatic belief that it does, but like you, they have no evidence to back it up. Instead, they have to make their claims in the face of evidence if they think like you. Your stubborn adherence to a disproven stance, inspite of objective and RELEVANT evidence given to show you the light, is truly sad. Your whole lifetime of experiences has all been a waste if they have led you to your conclusions. Your anti-intellectual bias is pretty sad too, but it does explain a lot about you. I'm finally beginning to understand you.
Posted by Advocate123 9 years ago
Advocate123
Who gives a damn about Unions?

Are you the typical intellectual student who has never worked in the real world yet??

Unions always negotiate based on the minimum wage and set collective bargaining agreements based on the rate of unskilled labor (Minimum Wage) vs. "skilled" labor (Unions). This is anti-competitive and leads to unemployment when coupled with the Minimum Wage.

In fact, most politicians know that the minimum wage leads to unemployment, but they have Union backing that wants the increase in the Minimum Wage because they can always use it to negotiate.

I am done with this conversation.

I refuse to argue with ignorant people because people watching may not know the difference.

If you want to challenge me to a formal debate on this site on another topic, fine. But, I've wasted some much time with you it is absurd. I feel as if my IQ dropped a few points, along with all the people who had to read your nonsense.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
The poverty rate has very little to do with anything. You've been talking about unemployment this whole time. A city's poverty rate has nothing to do with the minimum wage. If a city has been traditionally poor, and the minimum wage can't raise someone out of poverty without extreme difficulty on the part of the earner, what does giving me poverty rates have to do with the minimum wage's affect on unemployment? How about you give me some unemployment figures before and after a raise in the minimum wage, and then we'll talk. This might very well be your problem. You have difficulty figuring out what has an impact on something else and what doesn't. Your claim of omniscience regarding economics is looking even more absurd, if it such a thing is even possible.
Who gives a damn about unions? The debate is about the unemployment and the minimum wage, not whether unions use the minimum wage for anything. Of course, whatever you're trying to say about unions is coming from the assumption that anything unions do is bad, which is debatable itself.
Posted by Advocate123 9 years ago
Advocate123
For the love of god, you didn't even read what I wrote, I was pointing out that me pointing out the poverty rates are no different than your abject absurdity.

And yes, the Unions used the Minimum wage in these cities as a leveraging stick.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
I did read it, and found that you were not only off in lalaland, but hypocritical about it too. I didn't just talk about random CEOs (whose opinions matter since they are the very people you keep saying would be hurt by the MW) or Florida, I talked about the entire country. You saying that I invented my own economics over and over does not make you right. In fact, the only reason you have to say that is because it conflicts with your understanding of the world, which I've already shown you to be hopelessly flawed.

Wow. You really are one to talk about outside factors, aren't you? Hmm. Lets see, Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Milwaukee and Philadelphia are all rustbelt cities that have been killed because they failed to keep up with foreign competition. Much of that is attributable to stupidity by business owners to stay competitive (as with the auto industry with its irrational superiority complex), as well as crushing medical costs. None of those industries (manufacturing, auto, steel, etc) heavily relied on minimum wage earners. All of those cities also have very large minority populations, which are predominantly poor. Raising the MW doesn't lift people out of poverty, it simply allows them to keep up with inflation. In addition, they have always been poor, even before the MW, so saying they are still poor says nothing.

So, not only did I dispel your sorry attempt at using numbers, I also pointed you out once again to be the hypocrite you are. You want to claim spurious relationships in my evidence while solely relying on them for your numbers? That's sad. It wasn't even difficult to do it either. Would you like to try again, or will you finally come to your senses and waive the white flag?
Posted by Advocate123 9 years ago
Advocate123
You presented no evidence whatsoever. I explained to you the reality of what businesses deal with, which you failed to read, and just continued your religion of liberalism.

Instead, you simply pointed out statements from CEOs and a situation in Florida that had nothing to do with causation of the minimum wage. You also invented your own form of economics that does not exist on earth.

Just to demonstrate how absurd your Florida argument is, I'll throw 10 back at you. Here are the poverty rates of democratically controlled cities with increasing minimum wages.

Cleveland Poverty Rate: 32.4%
Detroit Poverty Rate: 31.4%
Atlanta 26.9%
Buffalo 26.9%
St. Louis 25.4%
Cincinnati 25.0%
Milwaukee 24.9%
Newark 24.8%
Philadelphia 24.5%
New Orleans 24.5%
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Presenting evidence takes longer to say than simply ranting and using myself as a reference for proof. Most people equate brevity with accuracy. I'm sorry that the people voting in your debates aren't up to calling you out. Your vote totals probably wouldn't be the same if you had adequate competition. The person who argued with you over the estate tax actually won handily, but you repeating yourself and sounding confident as you do it lures people in who don't know any better.

All businesses also aren't on the verge of going bankrupt either. That's the fantasy you live in. The case studies I keep presenting to you, the same ones you ignore and brush off because they threaten to upset your fantasy, show the benefits of the minimum wage, or at the very least its non-effect on the business world. If you ever decide to come out of fantasyland, you might see the power evidence can have in a debate.
Posted by Advocate123 9 years ago
Advocate123
You act as if the longer your rant is the more credibility it is given.

Businesses don't have piles of cash lying around. They can't just pay more workers because you tell them to play around with the numbers.

I'm done with you and evidently the people who voted for me are as well.
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