The Instigator
Contra
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Wallstreetatheist
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

Mitt Romney isn't telling the Truth (as a GOP candidate)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Wallstreetatheist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/8/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,211 times Debate No: 22668
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (23)
Votes (3)

 

Contra

Pro

Mitt Romney: The guy who is the son of former Michigan Governor George Romney. This dude http://www.google.com...

Truth: The true or actual state of a matter

Telling: Revealing, indicating through speech



------Setup-------

R1: Acceptance
R2: Main Arguments
R3: Rebuttals


PRO: Has to point out at least 10 cases in which Mitt Romney has not told the truth as a GOP candidate in this election cycle.

CON: Has to rebut PRO. If 9 or less cases are pointed out by PRO and stand, CON wins. If 10 or more are pointed out and stand, CON loses.


This debate is not meant as a deep debate.

Good Luck.

Wallstreetatheist

Con

I accept this debate.


"PRO: Has to point out at least 10 cases in which Mitt Romney has not told the truth as a GOP candidate in this election cycle.

CON: Has to rebut PRO. If 9 or less cases are pointed out by PRO and stand, CON wins. If 10 or more are pointed out and stand, CON loses."

A couple issues with this:
(1) Almost all politicians in history could be shown to have prevaricated greater than 10 times, making your setup extremely skewed toward the Pro side. To make this an equitable debate...
(2) In addition to my rebuttals, I should be permitted to make an argument pertaining to the truth of Mitt Romney.





OFF THE RECORD: Mitt Romney is a big-government, lobbyist-fueled, Keynesian politician who disregards all principle to mold his speech to his audience in the most abject way. The only issues that make him not as sh*tty as Obama are taxation and fiscal policy.


I'm a cashew, let's do this.
Debate Round No. 1
Contra

Pro

CON, my points are only going to relate to Mitt Romney lying as a GOP candidate in this election cycle.

C1: “ [Obama] said he’d cut the deficit in half. He’s doubled it. He’s doubled it.”

In reality, the deficit went from $1.3 trillion when Obama took office. Since then, it has declined to (this year) $1.1 trillion. The only modern presidents to double the debt on their watch were Reagan and George W. Bush.

http://www.northiowatoday.com...


C2: "Obama wants to end Medicare as we know it."

Not only is this not true, Romney has endorsed the Ryan plan, which actually ends Medicare and makes it a voucher scheme. Obama's Affordable Care Act actually strengthens Medicare, and protects it.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...

C3: “Time and again, I pointed out I’m not in favor of a health care plan that includes a national mandate.”

Not only is this a lie, Romney advocated the health care mandate and pressed Obama to adopt it in his health care reform plan.

http://www.usatoday.com...

C4: “President Obama wants to raise your taxes; I’m going to cut them.”

Lie. Obama has
only said he wants tax increases (tax cuts expired) on those making $250K or more a year. Also, Romney's plan increases the tax payed by the poor.

C5: “You know how many trade agreements this president has negotiated? Zero.”

Obama has signed free trade agreements with Panama, Columbia, and South Korea that will help America's economy in many ways.

http://content.usatoday.com...

C6: “My plans will … will not add to our deficit. They will abolish it.”

Not true. To think you can cut taxes by 1/5th and balance the budget is absurd, and untrue.

http://money.cnn.com...

C7: “Did you hear this? He believes he ranks among the top four presidents in American history. Can you believe that? I’d find a different spot for him.”

Obama never said that.

C8: "This president went before the United Nations and castigated Israel for building settlements. He said nothing about thousands of rockets being rained in on Israel from the Gaza Strip."

Not true. Obama has actually bluntly opposed the attacks on Israelis.

http://www.politifact.com...

C9: Eliminating "Obamacare" ... "saves $95 billion a year."

Actually, eliminating Obamacare ultimately increases the deficit. He may be correct on his statement, but only for 2016. The CBO states that repealing Obamacare would increase the deficit significantly.

http://www.politifact.com...

C10: "Barack Obama "never worked in the private sector" before he was elected president."

Obama was a private attorney, author, and a community organizer. Plus he worked at Baskin Robbins as a teenager (just for humor).

http://www.politifact.com...

I also urge my opponent and the readers to see the video that is clear and short, and lists 8 more Romney lies.

Wallstreetatheist

Con

C1: “ [Obama] said he’d cut the deficit in half. He’s doubled it. He’s doubled it.”

Mitt Romney wasn't as accurate as he could have been. How could he have forseen what Obama would do with fiscal policy. Obama quadrupled the deficit in 2009.

http://blog.heritage.org...



C2: "Obama wants to end Medicare as we know it."

You presented this point disingenuously. The end of the quote goes, "by allowing it to bankrupt in less than 15 years." The Medicare Trust Fund Will Be Bankrupt In 2024, because President Obama has Proposed “Only Minimal Curbs On The Unsustainable Growth Of Medicare.” Furthermore, President Obama has failed to propose “Meaningful Reforms In Entitlements.”

http://online.wsj.com...
http://dyn.politico.com...;


C3: “Time and again, I pointed out I’m not in favor of a health care plan that includes a national mandate.”

Mitt Romney's plan doesn't have a national mandate, because he's not proposing a national healthcare system. His site talks about the power of the free market guiding the medical profession, and allows states to have the power to choose their own health care plans.

http://www.mittromney.com...


C4: “President Obama wants to raise your taxes; I’m going to cut them.”

Since taking office, President Obama has signed into law at least seven new or higher taxes on families making less than $250,000 per year.
You didn't provide a source for your statement, I did.

http://www.freerepublic.com...


C5: “You know how many trade agreements this president has negotiated? Zero.”

He said that statement prior to November 14th when Obama negotiated with the TPP.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

C6: “My plans will … will not add to our deficit. They will abolish it.”

He has plans for cutting spending would take spending down to 20% of GDP, that would be about a fifth lower than it is currently. Cutting spending is the best method for fighting deficits, and that's exactly what he'll do. You should read his policies every once and a while.

http://www.mittromney.com...

C7: “Did you hear this? He believes he ranks among the top four presidents in American history. Can you believe that? I’d find a different spot for him.”

"I would put our legislative and foreign policy accomplishments in our first two years against any president - with the possible exceptions of Johnson, F.D.R., and Lincoln - just in terms of what we've gotten done in modern history."

http://www.abc15.com...


http://gazzfriends.forumotion.com...

http://donstorch.com...;


C8: "This president went before the United Nations and castigated Israel for building settlements. He said nothing about thousands of rockets being rained in on Israel from the Gaza Strip."

Yeah, I concede that point.

C9: Eliminating "Obamacare" ... "saves $95 billion a year."

Yeah.

C10: "Barack Obama "never worked in the private sector" before he was elected president."

Mitt Romney meant that Obama has never worked for a big firm like he has..

THANKS :D
Debate Round No. 2
Contra

Pro



I need to apologize and say that my opponent must be of good character, as I cannot rebut any claims after now.

C1: “ [Obama] said he’d cut the deficit in half. He’s doubled it. He’s doubled it.”

In reality, Obama inherited a $1.3 trillion dollar deficit.

http://www.politifact.com...

C2: "Obama wants to end Medicare as we know it."

My opponent's sources mention nothing about Medicare. Not refuted.

C3: “Time and again, I pointed out I’m not in favor of a health care plan that includes a national mandate.”

My opponent has not refuted the premise I listed. After Romney's failed 2008 GOP campaign, Romney pressed Obama to adopt a national mandate. (link in R2)


C4: “President Obama wants to raise your taxes; I’m going to cut them.”

Obama was talking about income taxes, because that is the main tax that is concerned in Presidential campaigns. Obama cut taxes for 95% of Americans:

http://www.politifact.com...

Besides, Romney's plan increases the taxes of the lower income families.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

C5: “You know how many trade agreements this president has negotiated? Zero.”

If you look on Mitt Romney's website (I actually looked there) it still says that Obama has signed ZERO trade agreements. A picture from TODAY:

http://www.mittromney.com...

C6: “My plans will … will not add to our deficit. They will abolish it.”

As my opponent agrees, Romney was not telling the truth here either. Romney's plans may eventually cut the deficit (but will initially increase it, as I said and sourced earlier), but Romney's plans WILL NOT abolish the deficit. Not refuted.

C7: “Did you hear this? He believes he ranks among the top four presidents in American history. Can you believe that? I’d find a different spot for him.”

He said the legislative and foreign policy accomplishments that they had, not him being president. Watch the video for other Romney lies. >:D

C8: "This president went before the United Nations and castigated Israel for building settlements. He said nothing about thousands of rockets being rained in on Israel from the Gaza Strip."


Unrefuted.


C9: Eliminating "Obamacare" ... "saves $95 billion a year.

Unrefuted.

C10: "Barack Obama "never worked in the private sector" before he was elected president."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Obama was the editor for the Harvard Law Review. Any way, Obama still worked in the private sector, he worked at Baskin Robbins.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com...

The point that he worked at Baskin Robbins is relevant because, last time I knew Baskin Robbins wasn't owned by the goverment or paid by taxes. Thus, it is in the private sector, and Obama worked there.


Other Concerns

By the way, at the end of R2, I said to my opponent:

"I also urge my opponent and the readers to see the video that is clear and short, and lists 8 more Romney lies."

It appears to be that my opponent did not try and rebut any of these points (IN THE VIDEO):

Romney:

"Obama apologized for America"

"Failed to communicate military options with Iran"

"Obama made gas prices higher"

"Obama didn't mention deficit in State of the Union"

"Obama wants a post-American century"

(rebutted in video)


Conclusion:

Romney is a massive liar. It is normal for candidates to change the words a little to work for them, but Romney has just spewed out lies after lies after lies. He lies consistently, and so freely with little care. In fact, he has lied about:

- Defense spending under Obama
- Huge tax cuts under his plan
- Obama "apologizing" for America
-Obama increasing national debt more than all other presidents combined
- Obama's job and economic record
- Obama made recession worse
-Lying about Presidents Health care law
- His father and MLK Jr.
- Obama "raising" the corporate tax rate
- Romney says he paid a 50% tax rate
- Gingrich outspent Romney in SC
- His view on climate change
- Auto bailout history AGAIN
- Claimed that he hasn't changed a political position
- Called himself a progressive and a moderate in 2002
- Lied about his own "memories"
- Lied about many flip flops
- Lied about Obama and Harvard

-And More!
(complete list on link): http://www.dailykos.com...-

As it has been shown, Romney is just a complete liar for political gain. It is beyond normal.

The resolution states that Mitt Romney isn't telling the truth. I had to prove 10 or more lies. I have done more than that, for a total of 34 lies (list, video, and second list). Obviously, for somebody to lie this makes them a liar (someone who lies). Therefore, Mitt Romney isn't telling the truth, I win with my BoP fulfilled.


For fun, here is my position for Mitt:



Vote Contra (no more characters)

Wallstreetatheist

Con

Thanks for the apology, Contra.


C1: “ [Obama] said he’d cut the deficit in half. He’s doubled it. He’s doubled it.”

Look at the chart, Obama took office January 20th and used that time for deficit spending.


http://blog.heritage.org...


WIN

C2: "Obama wants to end Medicare as we know it."

The Obama administration has already put big new burdens on industry and insurers in its national health-care overhaul, changing medicare as we know it and aggressively expanding it.


http://news.heartland.org...

WIN

C3: “Time and again, I pointed out I’m not in favor of a health care plan that includes a national mandate.”

Pressuring his largest opponent to adopt a national mandate is clearly not what he's in favor of, lol. His website explicitly states that he isn't in favor of it.

http://www.mittromney.com...

Win

C4: “President Obama wants to raise your taxes; I’m going to cut them.”

Romney will cut taxes for all income groups:

Individual income tax rates decline by 20 percent, as shown:

Current Rate 10% 15% 25% 28% 33% 35%
New Rate 8% 12% 20% 22.4% 26.4% 28%
http://taxpolicycenter.org...


Obama would raise taxes via the "Buffet Rule"


http://www.washingtontimes.com...

Win

C5:

Concede


C6: “My plans will … will not add to our deficit. They will abolish it.”
Didn't agree, because the cuts he'd make result in drastically lower gov spending; thus, no deficit. Mitt Romney will be, "Getting our fiscal house in order."


http://www.mittromney.com...

Win


C7: “Did you hear this? He believes he ranks among the top four presidents in American history. Can you believe that? I’d find a different spot for him.”

The legislative and foreign policy of a president is what enables him to be evaluated as good or bad. I provided 3 sources, my opponent has not one.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

http://gazzfriends.forumotion.com...
http://www.abc15.com...

Win


C8:
concede


C9:
concede


C10:
concede


Note: 1) As members of DDO would agree, YouTube videos do not suffice as arguments; therefore, I shouldn't have addressed the video, so I didn't. My opponent hasn't directly addressed the points from the video in asserting that they are false, he has the video speak for him. Sorry, not good enough, Contra. This is a debate, you can't have a proxy fill in for you.
2) Also, new arguments brought up in the last round do not count. Therefore, I will not address the sliming arguments you have brought up which include the 24 other points you have brought up and not described how they were lies, nor would the random sound bytes legitimately impune Romney.
3) Also, you can't post a link to a website you did not write and try to pass that off as your own argument. A link is not an argument.


Conclusion

According to the setup of the debate, I have won by a clear margin. At the beginning of the debate, this was the setup:

CON: Has to rebut PRO. If 9 or less cases are pointed out by PRO and stand, CON wins.

I have won contentions 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7. That is 6/10 legitimate arguments. Since 4 cases were demonstrated by Pro to be in his favor, and 4 is less than 9, Pro has lost by the terms of the debate, and has lost even if this generous burden of proof was not present.

I have won this debate conclusively on the agreed grounds.

Vote CON :D


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Debate Round No. 3
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by babyspitte.com 4 years ago
babyspitte.com
This was a ridiculous vote.

Contra provided facts, Wallstreet provided propaganda from heritage.

Wallstreet (and everyone voting apparenly) doesn't understand how the deficit works, and rather than cure his/her ignorance, they blame obama for bush policy that obama didn't vote for or sign into law.
this special kind of person pretends that bush handed obama a balanced budget (lmao) in order to blame obama for the republican policies that built our annual deficit deficit.

Contra is the hands down winner, in reality.
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
Yeah, I accepted this as a suicide debate lol
You'll win if you don't place such a heavy onus on yourself. Mitt Romney is a prolific prevaricator.
Posted by Contra 5 years ago
Contra
I'm going to try this debate again later I know, wtf I posted only the minimum of 10 contentions continues to baffle me.
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
The system is slanted against third parties, and many Republicans are looking for new blood. The best party for Ron Paul would probably be the Libertarian Party. He actually ran for president as a Libertarian in 1988. Unfortunately, our system of elections makes it nearly impossible for third parties to gain any traction (see Duverger's law), so running as a Libertarian would be nothing but a symbolic gesture.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by Contra 5 years ago
Contra
WSA,

If Ron Paul really wanted to stand in direct opposition to the Washington Establishment, why did he try and run for the Republican nomination? To use their funding, media coverage, and political strength. That isn't running against it. It's using it to his advantage. Ron Paul is just another politician.
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
1) People who support Ron Paul 2012 support the campaign and the person because they stand in direct opposition to the Washington establishment with principle, great ideas, and honesty.

2) Ron Paul won the majority of the delegates in Maine. http://bostonherald.com...
Posted by Microsuck 5 years ago
Microsuck
Agreed. There is no way Ron Paul has a chance at winning. He hasn't won a SINGLE STATE!
Posted by Contra 5 years ago
Contra
People who support "Ron Paul 2012" are fools.
Posted by miketheman1200 5 years ago
miketheman1200
Con was able to refute most of pros claims, and used more reliable sources. I must also add that his photos were more funny. :)
Posted by miketheman1200 5 years ago
miketheman1200
Ron Paul 2012 :D
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by SANTORUM2012 5 years ago
SANTORUM2012
ContraWallstreetatheistTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con met the instigators requirements while Pro did not.
Vote Placed by miketheman1200 5 years ago
miketheman1200
ContraWallstreetatheistTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Wow, clear winner here.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
ContraWallstreetatheistTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: ok comments!!