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Mitth'raw'nuruodo (Grand Admiral Thrawn) Thrawn Triliogy Pro, Vs Ender Wiggin (Con) Ender's Game

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/25/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,803 times Debate No: 34186
Debate Rounds (5)
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This Debate is regarding who would win in a strategic fight, Grand Admiral Thrawn, or Ender Wiggin. Both have access to 5 star destroyers, 500 star fighters, and finally 1 Little Doctor. I will argue that Grand Admiral Thrawn would win, and my opponent argues the case for Ender Wiggin.


may I first start by saying thank you for posting such an interesting topic as I have just finished reading the Ender's game series. I would also like to ask if I could use every book in the series and not just the first book. I gladly accept your challenge

I don't particularly know who Admiral yawn is but I'm sure that he is a great commander. but has he been, from birth, tested to see if he can join an extremely elite space training facility and program, did he, within his first few weeks absolutely blitz the games that trainees have been struggling with for years. Does he have an evil older brother that, again, from birth had been tormenting him to the point where his life motto is not to scare people off, but to hurt them so much that they would not even try to mess with him again.

From the age of seven Ender was trained ruthlessly in a zero gravity space battle simulator where throughout the book he never drops below the top ten best players on the chart. he gets so good, that the chairmen give his own army several years before it is meant to happen. he then proceeded to graduate three or four years before it was due.

I know that I have not actually put an argument forward that challenges Mitth'raw'nuruodo yet but this round was to put forward the sheer brilliance that is Ender Wiggin, and the battle strategies that allowed him to destroy an entire race before he even turned fifteen.

I will eagerly await your challenge, and will have fun responding
Debate Round No. 1


You may use all the books, I was just running out of room for the title.
Good arguments, however I insist that Grand Admiral Thrawn is superior, because Ender has too many psychological scars and issues to command with his maxium potential. Thrawn also destroyed a entire race, but guess what? That was a failure for him, as he had a record of never needing to commit genocide to win. Normally he could fight and conquer entire planets without eradicating him. As well, Thrawn is older, and has more experience. He has had to struggle for his rank, as he was an alien in a speciest organization. Also, he has demonstrated the ability to formulate complex battle strategies simply from looking at their artwork, allowing him to completely understand their species psychology.
"Thrawn believed that one could understand the psychological and tactical limitations of one's adversaries through the examination of their art, and thus exploit their weaknesses. This conviction was often proven correct since his vast knowledge and obsession with the analytical study of art resulted in almost infallible strategic victories over nearly every opponent Thrawn engaged."'raw'nuruodo


oh I am really looking forward to the rest of this debate...
Ender's mental scars and mental issues are the reason he is able to understand his opponents, not just on a skin deep level but on a level that allows the hive queens and the buggers to pull an entity from outside of all known universes and link it with his mind. this entity is called Jane. May I point out that jane, one of Ender's best friends, has the ability to move objects inside of this second dimension she was made in, and move them back to any spot in the current universe. By the way, this happens instantaneously. Jane is created at the end of book one but we only learn what she is in the second book, speaker for the dead.

with this ability, Ender could avoid your gunfire and little doctor by just leaving the universe and opening fire from any point in space he chooses.

you say that thrawn experienced genocide as a failure, as if Ender didn't. His guilt was so large in his mind, that he carried the last remaining hive queen over several galaxies and as a result, the hive queens and buggers now have their own planet and have a new species, the pequinos, as allies. this race has the ability to create any instruments or tools necessary to help the bugger workers build as many ships and weapons as possible.

the buggers also have the ability of a hive mind, so with one bugger on each ship and a hive queen in contact with ender there would be instantaneous transmission of information, with his allies, Ender would be far superior to Thrawn on that level

well done for giving me a challenging first debate
Matt murray
Debate Round No. 2


This has been a good debate, and once again I think you have made good points. However, I do not think Jane should be used, as it would count as outside interference, and I describe the match as only allowing 5 Star destroyers, 500 star fighters, and 1 little doctor each at the beginning of the match, and if we start pulling out other advantages, then I could use Master C'baoth, who has the ability to perfectly control Thrawn's army, uniting them in something similar to a bugger hive mind, on top of other force abilities, which could theoritically be used to counter Jane. If I can introduce him, I think it would be fair for you to use Jane. and so Jane would count as outside interference, rendering her irrelevant. When I say Thrawn experienced it as a failure, I mean that he already beat several other species without genociding them. As well, I believe Ender's super human understanding of his opponents is countered by Grand Admiral Thrawn's Art Analysis, allowing him at one point in book 3, the last command, to defeat a entire planet using smoke and mirrors and their own psychology. This of course, is just a example of one his impressive feats. He does this without the psychological damage, as opposed to Ender, who is psychologically ruined by his abilities. As well, yes, Ender experienced it as a failure, and it gave him a guilt complex, which is another example of his deep psychological scarring, which I think may also hinder him.


i apologize for not sticking to the rules and although slightly, i had a thought that they may be equal on a battle field. you say Thrawl has more experience and that may be true, but the point still remains that Ender's mental state and personality means that he will come at you with the full strength of whatever he has at his disposal. in one of my previous arguments, I mentioned that he "blitzed" one of the games at battle school. I will now explain what I meant by that. Ender walked into a room, watched a game once, played by one of the "experienced members of the game and then, with great courage, challenged the ring leader of the group to a game. He lost his first match, of course, who is great the first time they play a game. but the thing that gets to me is that on his second go, he turns around and says "of course you beat me on my first time, it's not a real win if you cant beat me a second go". it is this give all, take less attitude that made me accept this debate on Ender Wiggins behalf, needless to say he then thrashed the boy on his second go.

my next point carries on from my previous paragraph. Only the best of the best get selected for battle school, and Ender was accepted into said school as a genius. The fact that among so much talent, seven year old Ender was singled out as a genius in a school filled with military excellence, is pretty amazing.

i have thoroughly enjoyed this debate so please challenge me mentally again next round
Matt Muray
Debate Round No. 3


Once again, great arguments, and I have enjoyed debating with you. Ender is a genius, but I believe he is simply outclassed by Thrawn. Thrawn is a master of understanding his opponents psychology, as is Ender, and I believe that he will be able to poke holes in Ender's psyche, predict his moves, and other sch tricks by using Ender's unstable mental condition against him. As well, Thrawn is a master of obtaining the loyalty of his subordinates, getting the best results possible out of his troops, and obtaining loyalty out of his subordinates. Another one of his impressive feats would be his campaign against the new republic, where he archived many victories despite the fact that his troops were essentially leftovers, even though he ultimately lost, as goes the law that the heroes must win. for more details on Thrawn's feats.


well played,
I do not deny that Thrawn is a great commander and if it was possible I would love to see them go up against each other in a galactic battle, you have caused me to entirely rethink my view on who would win in this battle. But after much though i must insist that Ender wiggin would win. Ender was given his own army, an army of seven year olds, I have mentioned this before in my other paragraphs. Think about any child under ten that you know, think of how stubborn, childish, homesick, and downright annoying they are. He was put in charge of an army of them and you know what, he inspired them to think up new ways to destroy a system that was designed to break people. They absolutely devastated the way the game was changed, just out of loyalty to Ender. Thrawn may have NEARLY overthrown a fledgling government, but Ender overthrew a system designed to destroy spirits, he stopped a planet being destroyed, he destroyed a planet, he UNITED a planet and although outside influence, his allies would follow him not blindly, but loyally into battle. I'm also sure that the results he received from each campaign were the best results possible under the circumstances.

in your last argument you stated "as goes the law that the heroes must win", what is Ender but a hero.
I'm honored to be challenged mentally as I have been by this debate and I am very sad that it is coming to a close,
i have saved my trump card until the last round but I am not sure if it within the rules,

please give me a fun challenge in the last round and I hope that we can debate again
Debate Round No. 4


Great arguments, and I would like to say again this has been a great debate, however I stick to the opinion Thrawn would emerge victorious. Ender fought the system, but I do not think he beat it. They got what they wanted from him. In the end, they were using him, his being so skilled in battle school was what they wanted, even if he "cheated". In the end, he played into their hands, destroying the Formica for him, and ultimately rendered his victories in book one pyrrich victories in my opinion at best. Thrawn ultimately lost not due to his own faults, but because of a turncoat, and it is believed he would have won if not for this betrayer.


he may have played into the battle schools hands but was the killing of the children before and during Battle school planned. he killed those children just because he saw danger, his state of mind is that if he sees danger he will come and hit you with everything he has until you can't stand up anymore. and finally my trump card. Ender went into the outside dimension and came back with a clone of himself. this clone was a form of ender as peter, he was created as Ender saw him as a child. since both forms are still technically Ender it would not count as outside interference. Ender saw peter as an evil child who staked squirrels to the ground and dissected them for fun. this sudden ruthlessness and Ender's sheer brilliance combined into one body is an unstoppable, efficient, killing machine who would have no choice but to destroy Thrawn before the threat got to to large of a scale.

in conclusion I have no other choice but to insist that Ender would win on the fact that he is ruthless, commands loyalty and let's face it he is the demonstration of sheer brilliance.

thank you for such a wonderful and challenging debate and i am really sad that it is over

may the best 16 year old win
Debate Round No. 5
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Posted by Eitan_Zohar 4 years ago
Posted by Ragnar 4 years ago
This may be a good debate to have a NO VOTES rule on. As too much of the information is subjective.
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