The Instigator
Fernyx
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Coveny
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Modern Feminism is Not Needed in America

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/28/2017 Category: Society
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 768 times Debate No: 102267
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

Fernyx

Pro

I wanted to specifically debate Conevy on the topic of feminism. My position is that feminism is no longer necessary in the west. The topics of the debate are the wage gap, equal opportunity against equal outcome, rape culture, and female representation as these are all points that he has argued.

Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Arguments
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: Response to Rebuttals (No new arguments)

Rules:
-No Personal Attacks
-All Sources Made After Arguments
-No Using the Name of the Opponent

Definitions:
Wage Gap- A difference in pay between men and women which is based on sexism.
Rape Culture- A society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.
Equal Opportunity- The policy of treating employees and others without discrimination, especially on the basis of their sex, race, or age.
Equal Outcome- Circumstances which have the same results without discrimination.
Female Representation- The way which females are represented in media.
Coveny

Con


I would like to point out that you have already broken your own rules by using my name (well a misspelling of my name, but that was your intent) so I don’t expect this to be a very objective debate, but I enjoy debating so I accept.



I would like to also clarify that I argued that women are raped and sexually assaulted more than men, and rape and sexual assualt is not equal between the sexes. Please do not create a strawman and say that my position is that this country has a rape culture than trivializes sexual assault and abuse. That is not by position.


Debate Round No. 1
Fernyx

Pro

The Wage Gap;

The wage gap is the first of feminist myths. There is no statistical evidence for the 79% claim as that is based off yearly earnings and not wages, and when all factors are accounted for women make 98% with a 4% margin of error, meaning that they might even make more. Most arguments in the 90%-96% range still do not account for many factors that go into yearly earnings, such as the fact that women work on average 42 minutes less each day. Lastly, if women feel that they are being paid less, they are allowed to sue under the Equal Pay Act of 1963 signed into law by JFK.

Equal Opportunity:

Equal opportunity is the best way to maintain freedoms of all persons in a nation. Equal outcome would result is suppression of rights for those getting paid less for their work as the only way to ensure equal outcome is to force, in this case women, to work in jobs which paid higher, not allowing them to follow their own wills. Otherwise you would have to lower the jobs men could have, resulting in a lowering economy and again restricting freedoms. Equal opportunity has already been achieved as there are no laws which target women or help men further in life.

Rape Culture:

Statistics according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics show that only 2.1 of 1000 persons had been a victim of rape, or .0021%. Though cases do go unreported, it is unlikely that the 20%-33% statistics are accurate as the original statistic would have to be increased 10000 times. The problem with statistics ranging from 20%-33% is that they are done in surveys with vague questions, many not fitting under the legal definitions of rape or sexual assault, making the statistics positively skewed. Statistics from the NWAV show that roughly .1% of males and .3% of females are raped annually, not including prison rape, which when included show over 200000 additional rapes against men. Though rapes do occur, the 1/3-1/5 statistics vastly over-represent the truth, and there is no evidence that rape is a result of culture.

Female Representation:

Last is representation of females, and when I talk about this I am referring to 2 topics, sexualization and appearance in movies, shows, and video games. First, media is over-sexualized for both sexes. The difference is that women are more likely to respond negatively to sexual imagery, and take personal offense. Only about 1/6 men showed care for sexually explicit imagery of men in commercials, so while they are displayed, men often do not care about the imagery. Also there is the myth that women are not represented as much in media because of sexism. First, when talking about films, women are the minority producers and writers, therefore when a writer makes a story about a character which he could understand, he picks a man character. This leads to more movies being about men than women, as it is what the creators are used to. For video games, though there are statistics showing that women and men are very evenly split among 'gamers', many of the female 'gamers' are counted on phone apps. When studying the most popular game platform on PC, Steam, women only make up 18% of the users, and as a result developers make games for their main audience, men.

Conclusion:

There is no explicit sexism demonstrated in any of these 4 topics, showing equal opportunity for women in work and media. There is also no evidence for a culture problem which leads to sexual violence and rape. Women are not discriminated against in America whether it be in culture or law, and therefore feminism is not necessary.

Further Points:

-A definition cannot define a movement, only actions define a movement, because of this the definition of feminism is not a proper argument for feminism.
-Though 82% of Americans believe in the definition of feminism, only 20% of Americans are feminists (23% female and 16% male.), and the number is not growing.

Sources:
-http://www.payscale.com...
-https://www.forbes.com...
-https://www.bjs.gov...
-http://www.escapistmagazine.com...
-https://galyonk.in... (See games for women.)
-http://www.mainstreethost.com...
-https://www.eeoc.gov...
-http://research.omicsgroup.org...
-http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
-http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Coveny

Con


Wage gap:


They updated the Paycale link it seems. It used to be 7% unexplained rather than 2.4%. Where are you getting the margin of error of 4%?


Glassdoor listed the paygap at 5.4% - https://www.glassdoor.com...


Washington post lists the pay gap at 8% - https://www.washingtonpost.com...



These consider job title, hours’ work, background, experience, and many other factors to compare apples to apples. The 79% number you mention does NOT take those considerations into account, and is therefore dishonest. However, if you believe there is any wage gap, then you should admit a need for feminism in America.



Equal opportunity


As previously stated I’m not going to defend the 79% claim because it’s dishonest to do so. On the matter of equality I will bring up management positions though. Only 25 companies in the fortune 500 have women CEOs. That’s roughly 5% where it should be ten times that number. Obviously, they do not have the same opportunities, there is a need for feminism in America.



http://fortune.com...




Rape:


In the other argument, I said 1 in 5, but if we are going to be fair the number is 18.3% of women versus 1.4% of men.



https://www.cdc.gov...



This data is from the CDC, and it is based on “with their lifetime”. The Bureau of Justice stat you are using is “annually”. This has nothing to do with unreported cases or a 20 to 30% increase, you are comparing yearly stats to lifetime stats in an attempt to skew the data in your favor but even if we use your annual rape stat we can still see that women are raped three times more than men. Thanks for supporting my argument that there is a need for feminism in America.



Again, it looks like I need to state I did NOT say there was a rape “culture”. At no point, have I said that rape is trivialized. Please stop attempting to strawman my argument into something I did not say.




Female representation:


Although I feel like sexualization is an issue, I don’t feel like it’s nearly as strong of an issue as the disparity of body types. Women tend to come in only one shape and size while men enjoy a wide range. I won’t go into that though as I have plenty of other well supported points, and it’s difficult to find research data on the mono-body type issue women face.


https://seejane.org...



On the point of less female writers. I agree and I’m glad you are supporting my argument that there is a need for feminism in America.


https://www.theguardian.com...


https://www.aboutfreelancewriting.com...




Women do tend outnumber men on mobile, but then again they are more female friendly. But women also outnumber mean in RPGs. Men nearly double women in MMO and FPS though.


https://www.engadget.com...



So even if I take it that the problem is women don’t like those video games, the same problem exists in games they do like. So, although in the MMO and FPS they don’t spend an equal share of the market they still constitute a major percentage of the player base. The problem is not that women aren’t interested so much as they are not welcome, and harassed whenever they do it.


https://www.superdataresearch.com...



In conclusion, there is sexism demonstrated in all 4 of these topics. Women do not get equal pay, they do not have equal opportunity, they are raped more, and they are underrepresented in movies and games even by his own words, he just justifies it by saying there are more males than females playing games. Well duh, that’s because there are five times more male main characters than female. Do you want to play a game were what you want to play isn’t even an option?


http://www.radford.edu...




Women are not treated equally, represented equally, paid equally, or given equal opportunities therefore feminism is necessary in America.




Further points


Feminism is both a concept and a movement. As with any movement it will have extremist in that movement. Defining the movement by those extremist is called the composition fallacy, and it does not define the movement.



Feminism has been under MAJOR attack. Although 82% of Americans want equality between the sexes which is feminism, because of these attacks only 20% are willing to declare themselves as feminists. They label them things like third wave feminist and belittle the equality they want because it’s not as big a deal as the strides for equality they have already achieved. But the core of it is this, 82% of Americans are feminists because they want equality between the sexes. Stop bullying them, they will be more willing to play with you, and the number will grow.


Debate Round No. 2
Fernyx

Pro

I would like to begin the rebuttal stage by stating that my opponent has broken a rule of "All sources made after arguments." As I have already broke a rule of using my opponents name, I will nullify it. For clarification, at the end of all the arguments, not each individual point. Further my opponent has added rebuttals in the argument stage.

The Wage Gap:

The Washington Post only includes one factor for equal pay. They accounted for people who work in the same positions and got a result of 92% pay. This does not account for many factors such as I had stated in the first round where women work less. Glassdoor does not include hours worked either. Though Glassdoor includes more than one factor for pay, unlike the Washington Post, they still leave out one of the most dominant factors for pay. With all factors accounted for, and the illegality of discriminatory pay, there is no logical basis for feminism to be needed as fair payment is protected by law, and statistics reflect the equality of earnings. This means that there is no pay gap of any sort which feminism would be needed for.

Equal Opportunity:

Equal opportunity does not imply equal outcome. Just because equal results are not achieved does not mean equal opportunity has not been. There are no laws which hold women back from achieving the same results of men in the workplace. To be a CEO of a fortune 500 company you either have to have started the company or have been replaced by an existing CEO, neither of these routes are blocked by law. The number is likely low as pre-established companies often stay at the top, and profiting CEO's do not give up their spots, it is a hard market to get into now regardless of sex. 50% of the companies from the 1990's and 65 from the original 500 are still at the top.

Rape:

First the CDC does not include prison rape which I have stated prior, losing 200000 rape cases every year. Second they are very vague in their wording, using that 18.3% "experience" rape, however do not directly state that they were raped. This vague language would be easier to decipher if the experiment was defined, and the questions were as well. Until I can see the study resulting in those statistics, or an article explaining them, they are not definite examples of rape. There is also not proof that they examples do not include other factors such as unreported cases outside of word of mouth. Last, my source showing that women are raped 3 times as much does not include prison rape, which I stated with the source.

Female Representation:

Again for this, like for the fortune 500 companies, equal outcome is not indicative of an equal society, equal opportunity is, as equal outcome would have to be forced, and against individual rights. Just because there are not equal amounts of female writers, does not mean that society is not equal, it means that women are making different choices. In role playing games, there is character customization, therefore there are not main characters set to a specific gender in most cases. Call of Duty, the biggest game in console FPS has female character options. Lastly differing body types is something women care more about, in commercials about men, most are tall, muscular, and tan, typically without much change in body type outside the size of their muscles.

Further Points:

Feminism has rightly been under attack as the radical feminists have taken over the movement. Myths such as the wage gap are used to justify violence and silencing of speech. People realize that, in the west, feminism is not needed, and as a result it has been dying. There is no definition that can define a group, and as a result people look towards the prominent figures in feminism to find out the attitudes feminism has. When looking at figures like Amy Schumer and Lena Dunham, many are offset by feminism, and when looking at the hysteria in college campuses, they will not go near it, that is why feminism is dying.

Disclaimer: I will address any rebuttals, which were wrongly placed in the argument stage, in the next stage.

Sources:
-https://www.forbes.com...
-https://askwonder.com...
-http://wwg.com...
-http://variety.com...
-http://www.google.com...
-http://www.mainstreethost.com...
-https://www.forbes.com...
Coveny

Con


I would refute that I broke the rules. My opponent is breaking the rules again by putting sources at the end rather than after each of the bullet point arguments as required. To add to the confusion my opponent has not even noted where those sources are used within the bullet point arguments.



As for my rebuttals. My opponent continues to dishonestly misrepresent my position. In attempting to correct these strawmen in my argument R2, I went outside of the presented format, and fell into rebuttals. However, at best this is a mutual blame situation.



Wage gap rebuttal


My position is not nor has it ever been about the 21% wage gap, this is a strawman. The claim of 6% - 10% wage gap does not consider many factors references a factor taken from this strawman source “42 minutes less each day” discussing the 21% wage gap. This is dishonest as Pro is using points from the uncontrolled wage gap and trying to apply them a second time to the controlled wage gap to discredit the controlled wage gap. My opponent has therefore presented no argument against the wage gap, and my argument supporting the existence of a wage gap stands as the rules state that he can present a new argument in R4.





Equal Opportunity rebuttal


Again, my opponent is referencing the strawman of the 21% uncontrolled wage gap which “forces women to work jobs which paid higher”. The wage gap I am debating is 5 - 8% and compares the exact same job title. Again, my opponent is being dishonest and has not put forth an argument supporting that equal opportunity does exists and Pro cannot present a new argument in R4.



Secondly disagree with the premise that “having no laws which target women or help men” means that “equal opportunity” exists. For this to be true Pro would have to prove laws completely control opportunity. I think we all are familiar with the old boy’s network concept (but I’ll add a link as well) where although there are no sexist laws, it is still not a case of equal opportunity.


http://www.dictionary.com...



Rape Culture rebuttal


Again, a strawman as my position is not that the US trivialize rape. Also, my opponent dishonestly uses annual percentage and presents them as lifetime percentages. As well as being dishonest in indicating 2.1 of 1000 equals .0021% when it’s .21%. Had my opponent been more honest up to this point I would believe this an honest mathmatical mistake, but given how often Pro has dishonest, I don’t feel like this is the case, and I feel like he is exaggerating the numbers to make my position look bad. As proof on the math 10 of 1000 is 10/1000 = .01 which isn’t .01% but is actually 1%. You can confirm this by 10 X 100 = 1000.



Pro also states that females are raped three times more than men annually supporting my claim that women are not treated equally when it comes to rape.



Female Representation rebuttal


The sexualization is another strawman and not my position, and can be dismissed. I discussed it in my argument, but it plays no part in this debate and should be ignored.



Leaving only appearance in movies, shows, and video games which Pro freely states is not equal in writers or producers supporting my claim for movies. In video games Pro links steam as a source, however steam and mobile apps do not cover the whole demographic of video games, and Pro is dishonestly cherry picking the data to support his claim. Pro does not make an arguments that reference shows, so this claim can be dismissed. Pro is further cherry picking by not including non-video forms of entertainment such as books.



Of the four topics listed Pro has not proven any to be equal


1 Wage gap – Pro misrepresents my position and try to apply factors twice


2 Equal Opportunity – Pro misrepresents my position applies the uncontrol factor of different job titles to the controlled wage gap rate which compares the same job title.


3 Rape Culture – Pro misrepresents my position as trivializing rape even after clarifying that to Pro in R1, then goes further and inflates the numbers in an attempt to discredit me.


4 Female representation – Pro misrepresents my position and then uses composition fallacy by presenting a subset of the data support his claim not including RPG which is dominated by women.



Pro has repeatedly used dishonest tactics to attempt to prove his arguments, debating the 21% wage gap rather than the 5-8% wage gap, debating rape culture after I stated that was not my position, and finally exaggerating his numbers to make me look bad.


Debate Round No. 3
Fernyx

Pro

I would start by saying, sources were to be made at the end of arguments, not at the end of points as stated in the rules. My sources have been linked in order of their use in my arguments if there is any confusion, which when relating to most debates, there should not be. Con has repeated putting sources after points, not arguments. There is not mutual blame, as I have not based my argument off con's position solely, rather off the prevailing views of feminism, and have included his points in the broader stance. I withheld points for the rebuttal rounds, con could have as well.

Wage Gap:

I included con's position when stating "Most arguments in the 90%-96% range still do not account for many factors that go into yearly earnings, such as the fact that women work on average 42 minutes less each day." I stated this in the first round, and Con proceed to use 2 sources which did not include hours worked. There are no new arguments needed as my previous point of gaps portraying a 92%-96% deficit disregard hours worked remains undisputed.

Equal Opportunity:

As stated previously I was not directly referring to a specific wage gap, but rather the wage gap as a whole. Though con did provide evidence that women in the same job title get paid less, it is not a complete dispute as equal opportunity does not always merit equal outcome. Further, just because they are paid less in the same job, they on average do not work as long, which went unaddressed. As con stated as well, there are no laws that are in direct conflict with the opportunity women have.

Rape Culture:

Take 2.1/1000 and it results in .0021, computers have a calculator function if there is not a calculator readily available. Further women are treated equally in law when regarding rape, and that when including prison rape, women and men are near equal annually. Lastly, as I stated earlier, I was making my first argument in response to prominent feminist beliefs, and the position that con holds is portrayed in the argument.

Female Representation:

As stated in my equal opportunity argument, less representation is not indicative of less opportunity, and as a result less female writers is not a reflection of inequality, rather it is reflective of choices. This also holds true for all professions, many in the same field such as book writers and TV shows. Lastly I included Steam as a source as it is the biggest PC platform.

Sources:
-http://time.com...#
-https://www.inc.com...
Coveny

Con

If Pro wanted to use the common method rather than after the argument he would have followed the guidelines set forth in the new member’s sticky “In addition, when typing your debate argument, there is a common way of citing sources on DDO. In your argument, when you have just typed an argument that references a source, you simply put a number in brackets [1] like so. [1] References the source listed below as #1. This is the same source citing technique Wikipedia uses. [2]”

http://www.debate.org...


By calling it out he implies that he doesn’t want to put the sources at the end of the round but rather at the end of the argument. It’s poor conduct that he is refuses to bracket the location where the source is used, thereby adding to confusion in his posts. So I will continue to follow the rules set forth at the beginning and link my sources after the arguments rather than at the end of the round.

Mutual blame – Pro chose the topics of the debate then he chose my position on those topics. A position which I did not take, and he has NOT proven in any way that these are the prevailing views of feminism. This is a baseless unsubstituted claim that should be dismissed out of hand. Even if it was accepted the debate did NOT require me to take a stance of his choosing so that he has an easy time defeating that stance. On TOP of that in R1 I was already objecting to the Rape Culture, and Pro still used that strawman. Pro has been dishonest throughout this whole debate.

Wage Gap
“42 minutes less” and “21% less” compares all female jobs against all male jobs. Pro cannot support one as valid data and the other not. To say the 21% wage gap isn’t valid because it’s not specific to the job, but still hold that 42 minutes less a day is valid even though it’s not specific to the job is dishonest. The point being if you don’t believe every job should be paid the same you should believe that every job should work the same number of hours. When both use the same comparison to agree with the parts that support your point of view, while disagreeing with the parts that don’t is dishonest. Either the comparison is valid or it is not.


Also, I want to add both of my sources consider several factors beyond job title. The go into background, experience, education, region, and a many more things that define merit. They do NOT simply compare the same job titles. Read either of the articles. Although both articles discuss uncontrolled data, they also discuss controlled data which takes these other factors into account to come up with the 5 – 8% wage gap.


Equal Opportunity
Pro did not dispute my statements about the opportunity of women to become a CEO. So, the point stands.


A specific wage gap but rather the wage gap as a whole? There is only one valid wage gap in my opinion, and that is the wage gap that compares apples to apples. I do not feel that comparing all women’s pay to all men’s pay is a valid wage gap. I’m not sure why you continue with this strawman. I am not, nor have I ever argued that the 21% wage gap is valid. That is not the wage gap as a whole, because… it’s not valid. The 5 – 8% isn’t a specific wage gap… it’s the only valid wage gap. It’s the whole wage gap. Please STOP trying to create a position that you can easily defeat and try to force me to defend it. This is a strawman fallacy, and it is dishonest. If you really felt like the “wage gap as a whole” is 21% you would NOT be on my side of this argument, but you don’t, and you aren’t. Please stop.


Rape
2.1/1000 does equal .0021 but that’s not .0021 percent, that’s .21% as I previously showed. As you seem to need a calculator here is a link to one proving you are wrong, and dishonest.


https://percentagecalculator.net...


Pro did not and has not disputed that women are rape unequally to men. This argument goes to Con.

Female Representation
Pro has agreed that females are not equally represented in media. (even the media he’s cherry picked) Equality does not exist in any of these forms of entertainment even when women consume more of that form of entertainment.


In conclusion, I spent the majority of this debate trying to bring the debate from what Pro wants my position to be to what my position actually is. He has falsified numbers, he has uses sources that both of us agree are invalid, and cherry picked the data all in a dishonest attempt to prove his points. Feminism is defined as equality, so if any of the arguments prove that inequality exists, then Feminism is needed in America. I believe I’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that inequality does exist, and if inequality exists then Feminism is needed.

Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by rosecruse 4 months ago
rosecruse
Do you have trouble calculating percentage in your life? Here's how you can ease the task! https://askopinion.com...
Posted by Ryan_the_Giraffe 8 months ago
Ryan_the_Giraffe
He made a mistake, he never lied. In my opinion, the CON side was bland, had not originality, just restated and threw up facts of others, and just had a lack of words. PRO, on the other hand, gives reliable non-biased research and does not state alternative facts. Pro, in my opinion, would win.
Posted by Coveny 8 months ago
Coveny
You lie by a factor of 100, and complain about other are exaggerating when they have actually research to backup the claims? I posted the lifetime rape, you didn't even address it. You presented annual data as lifetime data, and even then you still couldn't make it equal, so YOUR data says women are raped more than men.

Please tell me how many people are .1% of the 320 million population. (use the calculator I provided in the debate if you have trouble) I mean you should have put this in your debate. You state the ratio as .1% for men and .3% for women, and then you dishonest imply that the difference of .2% is only 200k people. (and the 200k data is from a decade ago) Well you were pretty consistent with the dishonesty throughout the debate.
Posted by Coveny 8 months ago
Coveny
You lie by a factor of 100, and complain about other are exaggerating when they have actually research to backup the claims? I posted the lifetime rape, you didn't even address it. You presented annual data as lifetime data, and even then you still couldn't make it equal, so YOUR data says women are raped more than men.

Please tell me how many people are .1% of the 320 million population. (use the calculator I provided in the debate if you have trouble) I mean you should have put this in your debate. You state the ratio as .1% for men and .3% for women, and then you dishonest imply that the difference of .2% is only 200k people. (and the 200k data is from a decade ago) Well you were pretty consistent with the dishonesty throughout the debate.
Posted by Fernyx 8 months ago
Fernyx
"Pro did not and has not disputed that women are rape unequally to men."

A) Improper grammar.
B) For the third time, when including prison rape, men are raped more, I stated that multiple times.
Posted by Fernyx 8 months ago
Fernyx
I will admit I forgot to multiply by 100 to get percent from decimal, do not think it changes the fact that it is still over exaggerated.
Posted by Coveny 8 months ago
Coveny
No worries. We all have a life, just please try to respond within the time frame so you don't forfeit.
Posted by Herooftheyear 8 months ago
Herooftheyear
This one will be good.
Posted by Fernyx 8 months ago
Fernyx
Sorry if it takes me a while for responses, my baseball team is in districts right now and I may not find a lot of time to write.
Posted by Coveny 8 months ago
Coveny
Ok, no worries many people misspell my last name just the way you did. (although Covney is a slightly more common misspelling) I'm still open minded to see where this goes. I'm curious where you are going to get supporting evidence that feminism isn't needed though, as you would have to prove there is equality between the sexes. Many states still have the tender years laws on the books, which specifically is not equality between the sexes.

http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu...
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