The Instigator
gop_for_usa
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
FuzzyCatPotato
Pro (for)
Winning
21 Points

Modern Feminism

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
FuzzyCatPotato
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/10/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 577 times Debate No: 73234
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (4)

 

gop_for_usa

Con

I am a man who is all for feminism. But only the correct feminism. There is a LARGE difference between MODERN and REAL feminism. Real feminists are pro-equality. Modern feminists are pro-women. That is the true essence of why they are not the same. The real feminists (Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, etc.) are the women that want EQUAL treatment, rights, abilities, and opportunities. They want to be defended equally in law and seen as EQUALS in the eyes of everyone. Modern feminists (Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, etc.) support pushing for women to not only be equal but actually have MORE rights and privileges than men. THAT IS NOT OKAY! I fully support equality for men and women both but I do not support one side having more power or rights or abilities or opportunities than the other. Ever. TRUE feminists believe that women must make success happen for themselves (just like men have to do). But modern feminists believe men should be forced to hand them opportunities or else it is a "misogyny." I just live by the simple ideal that EVERYONE (male or female) should HAVE to EARN ANYTHING THEY WANT! I will never support handing ANYONE anything! I've never been handed anything and I don't believe handing people anything, especially based off sex, is not okay. We need to raise an America with strong, independent people that can fend for themselves. Thank you.
FuzzyCatPotato

Pro



The idea that Con promotes appears to be: Real feminism, which is about equality between the genders, is superior to modern feminism, which is about promoting women over men.

I disagree.

WHAT IS MODERN FEMINISM?

Con: "Modern feminists (Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, etc.) support pushing for women to not only be equal but actually have MORE rights and privileges than men."

Hillary Clinton seems to like equality:

"Equal pay is not yet equal. A woman makes 77 cents on a dollar and women of color make 67 cents... We feel so passionately about this because we are not only running for office, but we each, in our own way, have lived it. We have seen it. We have understood the pain and the injustice that has come because of race, because of gender. And it's imperative that... we make it very clear that each of us will address these issues." -- Hillary Clinton [9]

And Michelle Obama doesn't seem to support Pro's statement:

“No country can ever truly flourish if it stifles the potential of its women and deprives itself of the contributions of half of its citizens. .... Leadership is about creating new traditions that honor the dignity and humanity of every individual. Leadership is about empowering all of our people— men, women, boys and girls,” she said. “When we commit to that kind of leadership across the globe, that is when we truly start making progress on girls’ education.” -- Michelle Obama [10]

Are these isolated viewpoints in modern feminism? No. The following are all quotes by feminists living today or within the past 5 years:

"In my heart, I think a woman has two choices: either she's a feminist or a masochist." -- Gloria Steinem [4]

“A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women and men.” -- Gloria Steinem [1]

"I always get asked, "Where do you get your confidence?" I think people are well meaning, but it's pretty insulting. Because what it means to me is, "You, Mindy Kaling, have all the trappings of a very marginalized person. You're not skinny, you're not white, you're a woman. Why on earth would you feel like you're worth anything?"" -- Mindy Kaling [2]

“Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.” -- Cheris Kramarae [3]

"We've chosen the path to equality, don't let them turn us around." -- Geraldine Ferraro [4]

"People think at the end of the day that a man is the only answer [to fulfillment]. Actually a job is better for me." -- Princess Diana [4]

"We cannot all succeed when half of us are held back." -- Malala Yousafzai [6]

"We still live in a world in which a significant fraction of people, including women, believe that a woman belongs and wants to belong exclusively in the home." -- Rosalyn Sussman [4]

“Equality is not a concept. It's not something we should be striving for. It's a necessity. Equality is like gravity. We need it to stand on this earth as men and women, and the misogyny that is in every culture is not a true part of the human condition. It is life out of balance, and that imbalance is sucking something out of the soul of every man and woman who's confronted with it. We need equality. Kinda now.” -- Joss Whedon [5]

"Feminism is not a dirty word. It does not mean that you hate men. It does not mena you hate girls that have nice legs and a tan, and it does not mean that you are a bitch or a dyke, it means that you believe in equality." -- Kate Nash [6]

"Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law. If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”" -- Dale Splender [7]

"I guess I am a modern-day feminist. I do believe in equality. Why do you have to choose what type of woman you are? Why do you have to label yourself anything?" -- Beyonce

Clearly, many major voices within modern feminism have loudly supported equality.

WHAT IS "TRUE" FEMINISM?

Con: "The real feminists (Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, etc.) are the women that want EQUAL treatment, rights, abilities, and opportunities."

I'll agree that Sarah Palin broadly agrees with feminism.

However, consider how close she comes to the quotes I've presented above:

"I'm a feminist who believes in equal rights and I believe that women certainly today have every opportunity that a man has to succeed, and to try to do it all, anyway. And I'm very, very thankful that I've been brought up in a family where gender hasn't been an issue." -- Sarah Palin [12]

It seems clear to me that "modern" feminism and "true" feminism are very likely one and the same.

On the other hand, Michelle Bachmann seems somewhat against feminism:

"I rise today in opposition to this bill [creating a bipartisan commission to study the idea of putting a women’s history museum on the National Mall] because I believe ultimately this museum that will be built on the National Mall, on federal land, will enshrine the radical feminist movement that stands against the pro-life movement, the pro-family movement and the pro-traditional-marriage movement." -- Michelle Bachmann [12]

Michelle Bachmann's viewpoint appears to be closer to that of Con: That feminism today seeks bad goals.

SUMMARY

Simply because there are some feminists who support female supremacy, does not mean that the whole of feminism (or even modern feminism) is invalid. Ultimately, "modern" feminism is fundamentally the same as "true" feminism. Back in the 70's, there were similar feminist extremists; neither then nor now are they a majority or influential. In the same way that all movements have bad apples, feminism has problematic members. Just because the civil rights movement had black supremacists and violent protesters does not mean civil rights was wrong. Again, we must look at feminism as a whole. And as a whole, feminism today continues to support the goals of equality between the sexes.

[1] http://www.goodreads.com...
[2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
[3] http://www.goodreads.com...
[4] http://www.feminist.com...
[5] http://www.goodreads.com...
[6] http://www.buzzfeed.com...
[7] http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org...
[8] http://mic.com...
[9] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
[10] http://www.pbs.org...
[11] http://www.bostonherald.com...
[12] http://www.usnews.com...
Debate Round No. 1
gop_for_usa

Con

Your argument saying that it's basically okay to want female superiority, does in fact show that modern feminists are BAD! I am not going to go into extensive details on quotes and such but 1. The wage gap is a myth created to divide us as a people. 2. The difference between Hillary and Sarah is that Hillary is a democrat and known for living off other peoples money and Sarah is a hard working republican. Modern feminism, once again, wants EVERYTHING handed to them. Real feminism wants a CHANCE (which they have equally) to be successful and want to earn everything they are given. Thank you.
FuzzyCatPotato

Pro

REBUTTALS

Con: Your argument saying that it's basically okay to want female superiority does in fact show that modern feminists are BAD!

Nowhere do I say this. Con, feel free to quote me to prove this point.



Con: 1. The wage gap is a myth created to divide us as a people.

Yeah, no. A wage gap exists.
CONSAD agrees [13]; the Bureau of Labor Statistics agrees [14]; the Joint Economic Committee agrees [15]; the Government Accountability Office agrees [16].

And really? Someone created it to divide people? In response, I'll argue that people who think the wage gap doesn't exist (such as Con) are all part of a gigantic international conspiracy to cause division over gender issues, and can't be trusted.



Con: 2. The difference between Hillary and Sarah is that Hillary is a democrat and known for living off other peoples money and Sarah is a hard working republican.

Rrrright. I'm gonna wait for the sources that prove Democrat = Bad and Republican = Good, and that Ms. Clinton is a moocher while Ms. Palin is not.



Con: Modern feminism, once again, wants EVERYTHING handed to them. Real feminism wants a CHANCE (which they have equally) to be successful and want to earn everything they are given. Thank you.

Con didn't bother addressing the ~20 quotes I brought up above, which show broad support from modern feminism behind the ideal of equality between men and women. In fact, Con has done no effort whatsoever to prove that modern feminism actually supports female supremacy.

SUMMARY

There's no reason to vote Con. Con has failed to show that modern feminism is for female supremacy. Con has no sources for any of their claims. Con uses incendiary rhetoric to appeal to emotion.

Pro has shown beyond a doubt that modern feminism and "true" feminism share a goal of gender equality.

REFERENCES

[13] consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
[14] bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook-2011.pdf (p. 52)
[15] jec.senate.gov/public/?a=Files.Serve&File_id=9118a9ef-0771-4777-9c1f-8232fe70a45c (p. 9-11)
[16] gender-competence.eu/files/IntConf/5.pdf (p. 6-7, 11)
Debate Round No. 2
gop_for_usa

Con

Actually, the "wage gap" has to do with comparing lower-rate jobs to higher-rate jobs, and women in higher rate jobs are newer, thus receiving less pay. NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE WOMEN! But I guess a sexist-feminist like yourself wouldn't understand. And by the way, look up the stats. There are, in fact, a higher percentage of welfare recipients that have NO JOB APPLICATION OUT that consistently vote democrat. Democrats are the moochers and bad people that simply can't do anything without a hard working tax payer holding their hand. THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT! Political views are all about personality. Republican voters tend to have a higher work ethic than democrat voters. This is pure analysis of the voting public. Like it or not, democrats tend to be the lazier party that doesn't do any work on their own. Detroit, bankrupt, democrat controlled. Chicago, not very stable economic situation, highest murder rate in the country, democrat controlled. WASHINGTON D.C., UNTIL NOW THEY'VE BEEN ON THE DRASTIC DECLINE IN ECONOMICS! THE ONLY REASON WE ARE STARTING TO HAVE DEBT REDUCING BUDGETS IS BECAUSE THERE IS A REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE NOW! And Hillary herself her family was, "dead broke," when they left the White House. So yes, democrats tend to mooch off of other hardworking people. Now, in conclusion, I have shown you why my ideals point me this direction, all you have done is suck on the lie that "women aren't equal." I have very well shown that there is a distinct difference between TRUE and MODERN feminists. TRUE feminists, being hardworking, ethical women supporting equality (REPUBLICANS). MODERN feminists, being lazy, mooching, evil, pro-female superiority (DEMOCRATS). Thank you, and God bless America.
FuzzyCatPotato

Pro

REBUTTALS

Con: "Actually, the "wage gap" has to do with comparing lower-rate jobs to higher-rate jobs, and women in higher rate jobs are newer, thus receiving less pay."

1: Con continues to fail to cite a single source. I've cited 4 studies that corroborate my point.

2: Con's point doesn't make sense. The wage gap didn't change significantly between 2000 and 2010 [15]. Yet during that period "women in higher rate jobs" worked 10 years, potentially getting promotions and pay raises, without shrinking the wage gap.

Con: "But I guess a sexist-feminist like yourself wouldn't understand."

1: This is ad hominem. Simply because I am feminist does not mean that I cannot understand or that I'm incorrect.

Con: "And by the way, look up the stats. There are, in fact, a higher percentage of welfare recipients that have NO JOB APPLICATION OUT that consistently vote democrat. Democrats are the moochers and bad people that simply can't do anything without a hard working tax payer holding their hand. THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT! Political views are all about personality. Republican voters tend to have a higher work ethic than democrat voters. This is pure analysis of the voting public. Like it or not, democrats tend to be the lazier party that doesn't do any work on their own. Detroit, bankrupt, democrat controlled. Chicago, not very stable economic situation, highest murder rate in the country, democrat controlled. WASHINGTON D.C., UNTIL NOW THEY'VE BEEN ON THE DRASTIC DECLINE IN ECONOMICS! THE ONLY REASON WE ARE STARTING TO HAVE DEBT REDUCING BUDGETS IS BECAUSE THERE IS A REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE NOW! And Hillary herself her family was, "dead broke," when they left the White House. So yes, democrats tend to mooch off of other hardworking people."

1: Condescension, much? CAPS?

2: Con continues to fail to cite a single source.

3: Research suggests that political ideology has very little to do with whether or not someone got food stamps [21]. There exists a work requirement for welfare, suggesting against "mooching" [22]. Welfare actually has empirically been proven to make people more likely to work [17]. And, in fact, majority-Republican states are the largest recipients of federal welfare, while majority-Democrat states come closer to breaking even [18][19][20]. Con paints a picture of Democrats as moochers, when welfare is quite bipartisan.

Con: "Now, in conclusion, I have shown you why my ideals point me this direction, all you have done is suck on the lie that "women aren't equal.""

1: Good to know Con's ideals determine his interpretation of reality, not vice versa.

Con: I have very well shown that there is a distinct difference between TRUE and MODERN feminists. TRUE feminists, being hardworking, ethical women supporting equality (REPUBLICANS). MODERN feminists, being lazy, mooching, evil, pro-female superiority (DEMOCRATS).

1: Con has failed to respond to any of evidence, which actually had citations, and which actually quoted feminists. Said evidence showed that modern feminists and Con's prefered feminists are actually one and the same: Supporters of equality:

REASONS FOR DECISION

Conduct: Con has consistently talked down to Pro.

Grammar: Con has often USED ALL CAPS to make their points.

Arguments: Con has failed to show that a wage gap does not exist; Pro has provided multiple studies that suggest otherwise. Con has failed to show that modern feminism promotes female supremacy, while Pro has used numerous sources to show the opposite. Con has attacked Democrats for qualities that Pro has shown they do not have.

Sources: Con has 22 sources. Pro has 0. Con's sources include federal studies, opinion polls, and numerous actual quotes.

Vote a 7-point Con ballot!

REFERENCES

[17] wes.sagepub.com/content/29/1/99.abstract
[18] ijreview.com/2015/01/230371-2-map-shows-red-states-rely-federal-aid-looks-can-deceiving/
[19] businessinsider.com/red-states-are-welfare-queens-2011-8
[20] politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/
[21] pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/12/the-politics-and-demographics-of-food-stamp-recipients/
[22] edition.cnn.com/2012/08/23/politics/fact-check-welfare/index.html
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 1 year ago
FuzzyCatPotato
Thanks. A lot of votes recently seem to have been like that.
Posted by bluesteel 1 year ago
bluesteel
======================================================================
>Reported vote: Mr0strich8020 // Moderator action: Removed<

5 points to Con (arguments, S&G, conduct). RFD = Reasons for voting decision: Feminism is not needed in the 21 century. The idea that women are oppressed in our current society is false. Men are victims to feminism as frequently as women.

[*Reason for removal*] This voter did not refer to any arguments made in the debate; he voted based on his personal beliefs about feminism. Voting based on personal bias is not permitted. Also, failure to explain S&G and conduct.
=====================================================================
Posted by harry5101 1 year ago
harry5101
*be
Posted by harry5101 1 year ago
harry5101
I agree with equality an all that. But some feminist these days just think that women need more privileges than men and that our world should a woman only world..
Posted by Iamright58 1 year ago
Iamright58
Thank you :)
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 1 year ago
FuzzyCatPotato
really smart comment below, it really cuts into the substance of the matter
Posted by Iamright58 1 year ago
Iamright58
Feminism is stupid.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 1 year ago
9spaceking
gop_for_usaFuzzyCatPotatoTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: pro completely obliterated con.
Vote Placed by Mikal 1 year ago
Mikal
gop_for_usaFuzzyCatPotatoTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Most of e debate goes to pro soley on the pretense of personal Attucks pro was able to show and maintain the definition of what modern feminism is and effectively showed con why his definition is not valid
Vote Placed by AlwaysRight12345 1 year ago
AlwaysRight12345
gop_for_usaFuzzyCatPotatoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Ad hominem attacks (conduct), misspelled words (S&G), illegitimate arguments (arguments), and 0 sources (sources) on Con side. Good conduct, no S&G mistakes, good arguments, and a ton of sources on Pro side.
Vote Placed by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
gop_for_usaFuzzyCatPotatoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: "But I guess a sexist-feminist like yourself wouldn't understand." Direct ad hominem. Con has insulted Pro multiple times as such. Conduct to Pro. Con uses ALL CAPS in many sentences, not to emphasize but randomly, gravely hurting readability. Con's wage statistics were *not presented*, and Pro accurately demonstrated the differences in wage. The political arguments regarded female supremacy, where Con made *bare assertions* with no proof whatsoever. Con's female supremacy arguments were not demonstrated, and Pro showed how discrimination is still prevalent. Con fails to cite a single source, whereas Pro uses 22 sources for their much more accurate information and data regarding "female supremacy", wage gaps, and the Democratic Party. Con used Pro-Conservative arguments that were irrelevant to the resolution, and had ad hominem. 7 points to Pro. Refer Pro's reasons for victory.