The Instigator
creationtruth
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Emilrose
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Modern Israel is Not the Fulfillment of Prophecy

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after 3 votes the winner is...
Emilrose
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,212 times Debate No: 68744
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (3)

 

creationtruth

Pro

Please only accept this debate if you are a Bible-believing Christian.

Resolution: modern day Israel does not fulfill any prophecies concerning the return of the people to the land.

Definitions

Israel: the Hebrew nation who's land was given to them by God.

Fulfilled prophecy: the coming to pass of a previously foretold event or series of events in scripture.

The King James Bible (66 books, Genesis-Revelation) will be my final authority in this debate. You may use another version but I will always be siding with the KJB rendering.

To be clear, my position is that the events prophesized in scripture concerning the return of Israel to their land has not yet been fulfilled but shall be after the second coming of Christ.
Emilrose

Con

Accepted. In stating that modern Israel [current nation of Israel] is not the fulfillment of prophecy, Pro has a considerable BoP to fulfill. My objective is show that Israel is indeed the fulfillment of prophecy and that this is entirely supported by biblical scripture.

To make it clear exactly what a "prophecy" is:

a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.

b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

c. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.

2. The vocation or condition of a prophet.

3. A prediction.

Prophecy of Return:
Firstly, an exile and "scattering" of the Jews from pre-modern Israel is something clearly noted in the Old Testament. Along with verses relating to this, is the prophecy of a large-scale return to the land promised by G-d to the Jewish people. Such verses are explicitly in accordance with how the Jews left Israel and more importantly how they returned.

Beginning with Amos 9:14-15, which was written in around 750 BC.

"I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the Lord your G-d".

As the "exiled people" were technically brought back, this is a prophecy come true. Jews whom had returned also rebuilt ruined cities, as well as establishing new ones from absolutely nothing, with Tel Aviv being the main example; a city that now happens to be Israel's most prosperous. Naturally, the land was also entirely re-cultivated which thus lead to the growing of gardens, fruit, etc. Israel in fact happens to be one of the largest exporters in fruits and vegetables.

Ezekiel 37:10-14:

"So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign L-rd says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the L-rd, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the L-rd have spoken, and I have done it, declares the L-rd.’”

Another verse outlining the exile, in which the Jews are to be "cut off" from their land in receiving punishment from G-d. Evidently the Jews were exiled from their homeland but as the prophecy clearly outlines, they were "brought back" to the land of Israel and "settled" within it. The fact that in the 20th century, the land of Israel experienced complete en masse migration from Jews coming from all over the world [from the East to the West] shows that this prophecy was fulfilled. This particular predication was written in around 593-571 BC by Ezekiel, long before the exile and thousands of years before the return.

Isaiah 66:7-8:

“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.”


Isaiah in particular made a number of prophecies relating to Israel, its exile, and its return. This verse is particularly relevant to the modern state of Israel as it outlines it being "born in a day", which it essentially was. No sooner has any state ever come into existence than Israel did on the 14th May, 1948.

Ezekiel 37:21-22:

"And say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign L-rd says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms."

Once again Ezekiel makes the clear prophecy of the Jews [Israelites] being brought back into the land of Israel and being made into one nation again. This is explicit in its stating that that Jewish people will return, and that they will regain the land; which I'll point out that they already have. Again, for Pro to contend this, they are actually going to have to argue that the Jews did not return en masse during the 20th century and that they were not made into a nation again. Which due the fact they did and are, is absolutely irrefutable.

Jeremiah 16:14-15:

“However, the days are coming,” declares the L-rd, “when men will no longer say, ‘As surely as the L-rd lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the L-rd lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers."

Once more, Jeremiah clearly predicts that the Jewish people will be brought out of the land of the "north" and out of the countries in which the L-rd had previously banished them. As promised, he would restore them to the land that he gave their forefathers.

Ezekiel 34:13:

"I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land."

Again, Ezekiel conveys the words of G-d that His people will be brought from the nations and gathered from the countries, and settle back into "their own land".

Jeremiah 31:10:

“Hear the word of the L-rd, O nations; proclaim it in distant coast lands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd."

The prophet Jeremiah briefly outlines in this verse that G-d [the one who scattered Israel] will gather His people, as well as watching over them.

Deuteronomy 30:3-5:

"Then the L-rd your G-d will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the L-rd your G-d will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers."

This verse also prophecies how G-d will restore the fortunes of the Jewish people and gather them from "all the nations where where he scattered" them, even if they have been banished to the most distant. It explicitly states how they will receive the land that belonged to their forefathers and become a prosperous people again.

Zechariah 10:8-10

"I will whistle for them to gather them together, For I have redeemed them; And they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, They will remember Me in far countries, And they with their children will live and come back. “I will bring them back from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria; And I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon Until no room can be found for them."

This one is particularly relevant as the Jews did remember G-d. Despite the fact they had been exiled to foreign land, they continued to maintain the Torah and their belief in G-d. Zechariah also clearly outlines how they will come back to the land.

Sources:

[2.] http://www.100prophecies.org...

[3.] http://www.ucg.org...

[4.] http://www.evidenceunseen.com...

[5.] http://www.therefinersfire.org...
Debate Round No. 1
creationtruth

Pro

Introduction

I would like to thank Con for accepting this debate and I look forward to a thought provoking exchange. To begin with, I agree that the given verses describe a return of Jews to the land of Israel. I also agree that Jews have made a mass migration back to the land of Israel. The reason I do not accept May 14th, 1948 event as a fulfillment of prophecy is that it has not fulfilled the complete extent of the prophecy. There are key markers of the fulfillment of this prophecy which have yet to be fulfilled. You stated, ". . .for Pro to contend this, they are actually going to have to argue that the Jews did not return en masse during the 20th century and that they were not made into a nation again. Which due the fact they did and are, is absolutely irrefutable. " This is simply not the case as I have already claimed that there are portions of this prophecy which are inextricably linked to their return to Israel. Allow me to first make my case and I then will move on to rebut some of your claims.

My Case for a Future Fulfillment of This Prophecy

Below are the following requirements for this scripture to be conclusively reckoned as being fulfilled:

Revelation from the Tenakh (Old Testament)

  • God Himself shall perform this work of regathering the scattered tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 37:21,22, et al).
  • This event shall take place after the time of "Jacob's trouble"or Great Tribulation (Jeremiah 30:7, et al).
  • They shall from the time onward dwell safely, never to be in fear of their enemies (Ezekiel 34:28, et al).
  • They shall call on the name of the LORD and He shall be the God they worship (Zechariah 13:10, et al).
  • God shall place His Holy Spirit within the people of this newly reestablished nation (Ezekiel 37:14, et al).
  • In following God's Law, Israel shall repent of her infidelity and sins toward God (Deuteronomy 30:1-20)
  • The Messiah shall be their King and rule over them (Ezekiel 37:24,25, et al).

Revelation from the New Testament

  • Israel shall be scattered among all nations until the fullness of the Gentiles and after the Great tribulation upon which time they shall see and believe in their Messiah (Luke 21:22-24, Roman 11:23-27).
  • They shall not see their King, and thus shall not be restored to their land, until they proclaim, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:37-39).


Modern Israel Cannot be a Fulfillment of these Prophecies

None of these requirements has been fulfilled aside from a group of Jews being given the land of Israel. But this no more supports the claim that modern national Israel fulfills prophecy than does the fact that someone who was born in Bethlehem and crucified between two thieves supports his claim to being the Messiah. The reason the student of the Bible recognizes Christ as truly being the Messiah is that he or she recognizes that Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the requirements and related prophecies concerning the first coming of the suffering servant. One cannot isolate a single aspect of the prophecy concerning Israel's return to their land and ignore or dismiss the others concerning their repentance, keeping of God's law, etc. Clearly the modern day state of Israel does not meet any of the above given biblical requirements for fulfilling the prophecy of their restoration.
.
These Prophecies Shall be Fulfilled During The Future Millennial Reign of Christ

Given the clear prophecies concerning Israel's return to their land, it is evident that these prophecies concern the events recorded in the book of Revelation. A great tribulation takes place after the fullness of the gentiles, or the rapture of the Church (Revelation 6). A remnant of believing Jews, who keep the commandments of God, endure the tribulation (Revelation 12:17). Then Christ returns to conquer the enemies of God and establish His kingdom in Israel (Revelation 19, 20:4). God miraculously protects them from their enemies and defeats them (Revelation 20:9). They dwell safely with the Lord forever unto the heavenly kingdom and the new heaven and earth (Revelation 20). These events in the book of Revelation clearly coincide with the prophesied events concerning Israel's return to their land in the Tenakh. To the reader I ask that you consider the events of the book of Revelation and then consider this passage in Ezekiel:
". . .Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore" (Ezekiel 37:21-28)

". . .Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:3).


Conclusion

Modern Israel cannot rightfully be claimed as a fulfillment of prophecy as they have not repented and do not keep the Law of God among many other unfulfilled prophecies concerning their return to their land. Revelation, as a clear fulfillment of these prophecies, provides the timeframe in which these prophecies shall be fulfilled. It is not until the fulfillment of the millennial reign of Christ in the city of Jerusalem that these prophecies can rightfully be said to be accomplished. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7).


Rebuttal of Con's Claims

Con has simply isolated one aspect of these prophecies, that is, the return of Jews to the land of Israel while completely ignoring the context of these verses (e.g. leaving out verses 23-28 out of her quotation of Ezekiel 37). Her mentioning of Israel's seeming prosperity is negligible as what is it to gain a prosperous harvest and yet lose your soul (Mark 8:36)? Though Israel may prosper for a season, she has not repented and embraced Jesus Christ as her Messiah and her king, thus Israel as a nation is antichrist (1 John 2:22).

The only real problematic claim Con has made that merits addressing is when she says, ". . .the Jews did remember G-d. Despite the fact they had been exiled to foreign land, they continued to maintain the Torah and their belief in G-d." The Bible is clear that God has divorced His people Israel and has established a new covenant which all must go through, including the Jewish people (Jeremiah 3:8, Hebrews 8). And this entails believing in Jesus as their Messiah and their Savior who died upon the cross for their sins, was buried and rose again for their justification(John 14:6, 1 Corinthians 1-4, Romans 4:25). Judaism is not honored by God and is indeed a dead religion of Spirit-less, faithless, fumbling in the dark, blind leading the blind, adultery. They serve a god of their imagination (Exodus 20:3).

Emilrose

Con

You're welcome, Pro.

Rebuttals:

I'd first outline that Prosresolution clearly outlines the term "prophecy", along with "fulfillment". Therefore, if I provide examples of a prophecy being fulfilled, one that is covering the exile and future return of Jews back to Israel, I have technically negated the resolution. Pros additional explanation of the resoltion:"modern day Israel does not fulfill any prophecies concerning the return of the people to the land", in fact proves my argument even further. As the 1948 establishment of Israel very much concerned the return of the people to the land. What Pro seems to neglect is that Jews returning in large numbers to the land is a prophecy in and of itself. At no point in history has the promised land ever experienced such large scale migration, which included millions of Jews from all over the world; all as outlined in the TANAKH.

The verses that Pro uses all explicitly demonstrate thesame thing, particularly Ezekiel 17:21,22 and Ezekiel 37:14, which on the contrary to disproving my argument, actuallysupports it. The tribes of Israel were regathered, and the Jews did newly reestablish the nation of Israel. The fact that these two things definitively happened in 1948 proves that both prophecies were fulfilled. Concerning the Messiahstill be awaited upon, this is a future prophecy, the key part is that the return of Jews and reestablishment of Israel has already been fulfilled.

Revelation from the second Testament doesn't entirely contradictmy argument, with both Luke 21:22-21 and Romans 11:23-27stating that Israel would bescattered throughout the lands. Asstated previously, the arrival of the Messiah is a prophecy that will take place after the Jews have returned to the land and after they have reestablised it as their home again. Regarding Matthew 23:37-39, once again, the Jews were restored to their land. To argue against this would be to contend that Israel was not reestablised in 1948. I'll reiterate once again that the coming of the Messiah is to be fulfilled after the Jews have returned to the land; and not other way round.

Pro then further states:

"None of these requirements has been fulfilled aside from a group of Jews being given the land of Israel. But this no more supports the claim that modern national Israel fulfills prophecy than does the fact that someone who was born in Bethlehem and crucified between two thieves supports his claim to being the Messiah."

Firstly, it was considerably more than a "group" of Jews who were "given" the land of Israel in 1948. Millions of Jews from worldwide settled in it. The Jewish population of Israel currentlystands at 6 million, with 51% having migrated from surroudning Middle Eastern countries and an estimated 50% having migrated from Europe. Because the TANAKH explicitly does outline prophecies of the Jews returning to the land, the 1948 reestablishment of Israel absolutely is supported as being a fulfillment of prophecy.

In addition, the modern state of Israel in fact does fulfill the requirement of keeping G-ds law. Rather, it's argued that Christians do not maintain these laws and reject the 613 Mitzvot of the TORAH, which are the commandments as given by G-d to Moses. Israel consistently observes the shabbat along with other Jewish holidays, as well as continuing to uphold the TORAH; which still attracts countless Jews tostudy it. The prevalence of Judaism and the importance of G-d in Israel [particlularly in cities such as Jerasalem] is in fact undenianble. Religion and the observance of it is an integral part of many Jewish Israeli lives.

As for the inclusion of Revelation verse, once again it does not contend the fact that prophecy was clearly fulfilled in 1948 when Israel was as a nation. It's apparent that the Revelation verse that Pro mentions is primarily referring to future prophecy, meaning prophecy that only applies after Israel has formally been established. Note that these verses are placing emphasis on the defeat of Israel'senemies, which occurs after the prophecy of Israel being reestablished is fulfilled.

Which again, applies to future prophecy. It is after the Jews have returned to the land and restored it that the nation will fight, to eventually fulfil the prophecy of defeating its. Naturally, these things cannot happen all in one go and each prophecy has to be fulfilled over a period of time first.

The verse of Ezekiel 37:21-28 [as used in my own argument] has also largely been fulfilled. In the begining Ezekiel is prophesizing the return of Jews,something that's already been fulfilled. Additional parts of the verse outlining that the Jews will follow their G-d is also being demonstrated by the many practicing Jews that reside in Israel today.

In Pros conclusion, they again state that modern Israel cannot be a fulfilment of prophecy due to the Jewish people not repenting, leaving one to ask how they returned in the first place, as well as the Law--I should add "Laws"-- of G-d not being kept. I'll remind Pro again that there is a number of 613 Mitzvot that are outlined in the Torah, the G-d given book that Christians formally reject. All of these commandments are a part of Judaism and many Israeli Jews continue to fully observe the Laws of G-d and make them a part of their every day life. Orthodox Jews in fact make up an increasing percentage of the Israeli population and they are all required to recognize the G-ds Laws. Prosomehwhat dismises the case of prophecy of Jewish return to Israel being fulfilled and focuses on the Law and Jewish observance of G-d, which I'll highlight again is significantly more prelevant than they may think. Not only has the prophecy of return and reestablishment been fulfilled, but Jews are also continuing to maintain their religion and follow their G-d. The main prophecies that are yet fulfilled in their entirety, isthe coming Messiah and the defeat to all of Israel's enemies.

In response to mystatement that the Jews continued to maintain Judaism, Proalso asserts that: "The Bible is clear that God has divorced His people Israel and has established a new covenant which all must go through, including the Jewish people (Jeremiah 3:8, Hebrews 8)."

However, the covenant that G-d made with Abraham [see Gen. 12:1-3; 17:4-8] before Moses even delivered the TORAH, is everlasting. Therefore despite exile and the fact Jews werescattered throughout other lands, G-d hadstill technically not "divorced" the Jews. They still remained His people and theystill kept the TORAH. Were it the case that the Jews had entirely rejected G-d, Jews would havestopped believing in G-d upon exile andthe religion of Judaism would no longer exist, which it very obviously does.

For Pro to state: "Judaism is not honored by God and is indeed a dead religion of Spirit-less, faithless, fumbling in the dark, blind leading the blind, adultery" is nothing less than staggering and also extremely disrespectful to the Jewish people. G-d was the one who gave the TORAH to the Jews which led to the religion of Judaism, and He is the one that expects His people to maintain it, which is all to easy for Christians to forget. Using termssuch as "adultry" without any context or explanation to why Pro associates this word with Judaism, specifically when it is forbidden in G-ds commandments which entirely undermines Pros argument.

Exodus 20:3 actuallystates: "You shall have no other gods before me."Pro has blatantly used this verse out-of-context. It's because Jews are to have no other G-ds before Him that they maintain the TORAH and keep Judaism alive. The G-d that Jews serve is the one that made them His people and gave them His Laws, the one that selected the Jews to show Him to the world.

"Show me your ways, O L-rd, teach me your paths; guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are my G-d my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long." [Psalm 25:4-5]

This is the G-d that Judaism upholds.
Debate Round No. 2
creationtruth

Pro

It seems that an integral part of this debate, concerning Israel's repentance and observance of God's commandments is hindered by my opponent's disregard for my request that only a Christian accept this debate. From her remarks it seems clear that she is not a New Testament Christian. I will not be arguing against her claims of Judaism being honored by God in this debate as this is not the main issue at hand. Obviously if Jesus be the Messiah of God, and Jews in modern day Israel reject Jesus, then their religion is not honored by God; Judaism is blind to the wisdom of God concerning the Messiah and His New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:14).


In conclusion, it seems that the extent of Con's argument is that Israel was promised a return to their land, Jews have returned to the land, therefore this prophecy is fulfilled. This is a very naive understanding of prophecy. Clearly there is more to the fulfillment of this prophecy than their physical return as I have clearly demonstrated from scripture. I leave it to the prospective reader to determine who's case is more biblically sound.

Emilrose

Con

Firstly, my not being a Christian does not hinder my objectivity in any way and I am still able to evaluate New Testament verse in an impartial manner and accept it as part of the debate. The main source of contention during the previous round is Cons view towards Judaism, which is noticably inaccurate and not relevant to the whether prophecy was indeed fulfilled by the reestablishment of Israel. To highlight once more, these prophecies come directly from the religion and would not exist without it. Therefore, a little more respect and fairness concerning Judaism could be shown.

Essentially, one could easily argue [as many Christians have] that individual prophecies must be fulfilled before the coming of Messiah. As alluded to in round one and two, in order for the Messiah to actually arrive, the nation of Israel must be re-established again, such as told in Zechariah 8:7-8 : "I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their G-d."

Given this, it would seem fairly obvious that on the contrary to prophecies, told in different times, by different prophets, being fulfilled all in one go, each prophecy is to be fulfilled gradually. The fact is that prophecies are fulfilled over time. Con evidently discounts the fact that prophecy outlining the return of Jews to Israel and its reestablishment are individual prophecies in themselves; and are to come true prior to any other prophecy, which would include Israel eventually defeating its enemies and the coming of the Messiah, rebuilding of the Temple, etc.

A contextual look at Isaiah 43, in which the return of Jews is prophecised:

1: "But now thus saith the L-RD that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art Mine."

2: "When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee, and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee; when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned, neither shall the flame kindle upon thee."

3: "For I am the L-RD thy G-d, The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee."

4: "Since thou art precious in My sight, and honourable, and I have loved thee; therefore will I give men for thee, and peoples for thy life."

5: "Fear not, for I am with thee; I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west."

6: "I will say to the north: 'Give up,' and to the south: 'Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the end of the earth."

As can be seen, verse five and six particularly outline the return of Jews to the Holy Land. As with the reestablishment of Israel, the eventual Coming of the Messiah is a too an individual prophecy in itself.

In fact, to state that the reestablishment of Israel is not a prophecy, one is more or less saying that the exile of Jews into other lands which was fulfilled around 2000 years is not a prophecy to be judged in itself either.

Hosea 3:4-5 and 6:1 clearly outline the the prophecy of exile.

While, Isaiah 11:11-12, Isaiah 26:6, Jeremiah 32:34, Isaiah 35:1, Isaiah 66:8 [in which he prophecies being Israel reborn in a day], Pslam 107:2:3, Ezekiel 45:12-16, Ezekiel 36:11-24, and many others, virtually all highlight the prophecy of return.

Zephaniah 3:8-10 also prophecies the reinstating of the Hebrew language. Another prophecy that has clearly come true.

In conclusion, I thank Pro for introducing this debate. Naturally I ask any potential voters to take into account these prophecies and the fact that all of the above have come true. I'll reiterate again that such a thing as individual prophecy exists, and that each prophecy occurs gradually; not all together in the same time period. The fact that Jews have returned to Israel and reestablished it as their land, is a clear example of prophecy fulfilled.

Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Truth_Exposed 1 year ago
Truth_Exposed
Creationtruth

is actually correct with this subject. Modern day Israel has not been fulfilled in Prophecy yet. According to Scripture, the Jewish individuals in Israel today are not even Jews, they are from a different blood line. The real Hebrews according to the slavery in Scripture Prophecy are the Blacks that have been scattered all over the earth but are mainly in America. They have not yet returned to their land and those occupying Israel today, according to Scripture have overtake the Promised Land from the real Hebrews. Those are not the real Jews, so this prophecy has not been fulfilled yet.

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 is the slavery prophecy which has already been fulfilled.
Posted by creationtruth 1 year ago
creationtruth
*yoshidino
Posted by creationtruth 1 year ago
creationtruth
It'[s really up to you yoshido as I had stated I am willing to share what I believe based on scripture. If you like we can discuss dispensationalism.
Posted by yoshidino 1 year ago
yoshidino
Ok Creationtruth, which topic would you like to discuss? Challenge me to a debate, or tell me what you want to discuss and I'll challenge you to a debate. :) deal?
Posted by creationtruth 1 year ago
creationtruth
yoshidino- You entirely misrepresent my position. Yes I am dispensational, but this does not mean I believe everything mainstream dispensational theology teaches. You should not assume what someone believes before finding out from themselves. If you would like to have a peaceable discussion then great, I am willing to share what I believe.

btw, Jesus Christ might be Israel's Messiah, but He is the WORLD'S Savior; the ultimate revelation of the mystery of Jehovah Elohim (John 1:29, 3:16-17, 2 Corinthians 5:19, 1 Timothy 2:15, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14)!
Posted by yoshidino 1 year ago
yoshidino
And just because all has not been fulfilled doesn't mean part has not* This sentence in full was somehow deleted from my RVD.
Posted by yoshidino 1 year ago
yoshidino
Yeshua is the Jews' Messiah, not the gentiles. On the way to the tree, Yeshua prayed for Israel saying, Abba forgive them, they know not what they do. If this is not your heart, th as n you don't have the heart of Messiah. He also said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He died for the Jews, and yet you speak hatefully of them. Israel's sin never changed God's mind. He made a covenant with Abraham that he said would stand forever. Several thousand years later, even though Israel sinned much, God still chose to send his Messiah to ISRAEL! Not the Gentiles! He came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Did he fail?? Or does he still love Israel and have a plan to open their eyes to Yeshua as Messiah? Absolutely he has a plan!
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Posted by yoshidino 1 year ago
yoshidino
Emily, he said he only wants to debate someone that is a Christian. Why did you accept?
Posted by yoshidino 1 year ago
yoshidino
Pro, do you realize that the God that promised a messiah is the same God that chose Israel? In you religion you say that your God never changed. What about his choice in choosing Israel? What about his standard of holiness, the Torah? Your own New testament says in 1 John, sin is the transgression of the Torah. Oh, but I guess sweet Jesus decided his daddies laws were to hard to follow, so he CHANGED his mind and said never mind, y'all don't have to keep those. Is you Jesus so week that he can't even give you the ability to keep the All Mighty God's commandments?
Prophecy concerning messiah says he will teach Torah, not destroy it.
I know, this debate is about weather or not Israel being a nation is a prophesy fulfilled of Israel becoming a nation (lol). I don't have much to say about that. Obviously some prophesies have been fulfilled, and some haven't. But you should understand that, right. Being that your messiah has not fulfilled ALL messianic prophesies concerning him being a king. Does the fact that this guy from Nazareth never became a king discount him from being the messiah? You say he's coming back to do that, no? So also have some, but not all the prophesies been fulfilled concerning the return of the remnant off Israel. And Israel means blood Israelis, not no dispensation thology crap. God has only one bride, that is Israel, not the Grecko Roman church of Western Christianity. Show me that in prophesy. The only way for a gentile to become a part of Israel is to be grafted in. This was originally an Old Covenant principle. In your book of revelation, it says that there are only twelve gates with twelve names on them, that lead into the city of New Jerusalem. These are the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no gentile gate. You have to be a part of Israel to get in.
Posted by A_Nebiah 1 year ago
A_Nebiah
@TheJC_debater

Those are not the real Jews. If you believe the Bible and you've read Dueteronomy 28:15-68, you'd know who the real Jews are, according to that Biblical Prophecy which has been fulfilled already. When or if you read those verses in that chapter of that book, reflect on American History, what is known about American History so far.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Leo.Messi 1 year ago
Leo.Messi
creationtruthEmilroseTied
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Reasons for voting decision: con was the only one to cite sources...
Vote Placed by yoshidino 1 year ago
yoshidino
creationtruthEmilroseTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct: while Con, a non-Christian accepted the debate against the rules, Pro very rudly insulted God's people, the Jews, and I cannot excuse him of that. Spelling and Grammar: Con had many blended words and occasional misplaced words. Arguments: Con made it clear using both scripture and historical fact that Israel becoming a nation again is in fact fulfilment of the prophesied return of the remnant Jews. Pro tried debunking by stating that other prophesies that were paired with this prophesied return haven't been fulfilled yet. Con revives by illuminating the fact that prophesy must be fulfilled gradually, and just because all has not been fulfilledd Sources: both used valid scriptures.
Vote Placed by Envisage 1 year ago
Envisage
creationtruthEmilroseTied
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Reasons for voting decision: The problem I have with Pro's argumentation is the use of other books to justify conclusions from the prophetic books (I.e. Use of Mark against Ezekeil). Con made a rather clear-cut case for fulfilment of prophecy by stating when the books were composed, and what portion of the propecies were fulfilled. Pro COULD have addressed this, and came very close to accidentally doing so, by arguing that the prophecies in these books also make extra claims which are not fulfilled. I looked carefully through his arguments but I didn't see him quite making that connection. He did successfully point out that Con took Ezekeil out of context, but didn't successfully mitigate the other prophecies. Con successfully argues that Pro's NT arguments are besides the point. Note to Pro, simply asking for a Bible-Believing Christian isn't sufficient for this debate to be judged how you wanted it to. You actually needed to state the presuppositions within the rules round (e.g Jesus is messiah).