The Instigator
SnaxAttack
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
MagicAintReal
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Modernized Education Systems does not help our kids learning system, but makes it worse

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/16/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 524 times Debate No: 76599
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

SnaxAttack

Pro

With the recent year of schools coming to an end, for the summer, more kids turn into adults and graduate. "Yay", I would say, but there has been a ton of talk whether or not the kids becoming young adults are getting "dumber" after each generation. And I would have to agree with the given statement, because the thing that is to blame is our Modernized Education Systems (MES). They expect less and less of students, and bring them along the "easy route". In schools nowadays, a term called "accountability" is foreign. Accountability is defined as "The act of being responsible", defined from the Webster's dictionary. Students are not accountable, and that teachers are not accountable either, when the teachers job is to influence their students to learn responsibility. The whole system is "whack"! Now I admit that I graduated high school recently, and do know a lot of teachers (at least in my school) that wish to have more power within their students. The problem is that the salary system for teachers are based on the grades of the students, and standardized testing. If the students fail, the teacher suffers the consequence; yet when the student does fail, its more because of laziness or irresponsibility. And they obviously don't learn responsibility from their parents, so it is the hope for the teacher to get "aggressive" with the student in order to give responsibility. And to close the first argument, the education system used nowadays is not helping, but is broken. It needs to be fixed by giving more "flexibility" to the teachers, than following a supposedly "great" system.
MagicAintReal

Con

As a teacher, I feel the need to reject the resolution that the MES does not help our kids' retention of information from school and I further reject the claim that the MES makes retention worse. "Retention of information from school" is the working definition for "kids' learning system" that Pro gave in the comments section.

I think just about anything besides retention and accountability are problems with the MES. If anything our MES stresses memory and attendance. All standardized tests look for what the kid can remember, and our grading systems reflect attendance. In my public school system, which I will not name, if a student has 5 or more unexcused absences, they fail the quarter, and for a semester long course, this is almost a definite course failure, by county law. So if you agree that we are not holding them accountable, then why are the ones who are graduating, the same ones who have attended school per their responsibility? I will say that my school is in Maryland, and our educational policies are on par with most of the MES in this country.
Also, every standardized test given to students is a memory test. Testing protocol almost goes out of its way to eliminate notes and outside sources like the internet, so that whatever the student does on the test, is purely from memory. You can't graduate high school without passing these standardized memory tests...so I would ask you, if students aren't retaining information, how are they passing retention tests to graduate?

Yes the standardized tests have problems, and as teachers we complain about the types of questions appearing on these tests...one of those things is how the standardized tests only assess for memory/retention with no real focus on application or critical thinking.
So, your claim that the MES makes students' retention and accountability worse, cannot explain how students are graduating from said system that is overly focused on retention and that requires attendance accountability in order to graduate.

Our salaries are not based on grades of students; that's a myth. Our salaries are based on our education level, years of experience, and continued success on teacher evaluations. Students' test scores are not the basis for our salary system.

I believe that you, Pro, have the burden of proof in this argument, despite the way the resolution is worded, because you are demonstrating that the system is broken or is an agent in worsening kids' retention/accountability. I reject that claim.
Debate Round No. 1
SnaxAttack

Pro

To begin the second round of the debate, being a rebuttal and the third round being a closing statement, I will counter argue my opponents given opening argument. He or she stated that what MES stresses the most about is: "Memory and Attendance"; where I must disagree. To begin, my opponent states that this system was used in his or her school system, where for students to graduate, they are required to have five or less excuses for absences in order to pass the quarter. As well as the State Standardized Test, in Maryland, is based on a "Memory Test". Where the students job is to retain the information needed in order to pass the test. It is great and all, but only for Maryland; where the given debate is in discussion about the whole country.

One fact about the MES is that for absences, teachers are restricted into "penalizing" the student for missing. For the simple fact of attempting to keep the schools popularity rate up. Because if we consider the funding for a school, it is achieved through popularity rating of how good or bad the school is, and if all of a sudden students failed to graduate for loads of absences; the school would be hated. This mainly has occurred in California, Texas, New York, and other states besides Maryland; where your state is one of the lucky few. This also falls under the condition of a school giving "responsibility" because if most schools, besides Maryland, are all "tweaking" the true grades (Through test curves); than no true responsibility is given.

For the standardized tests, we can both come to agreement that they are at times "silly"; however, they truly do add more stress to a students life. And, stated under the website 'Demo-List-Ic", it states: "A student who has stress, will lack motivation". So, is this truly the best of an education system we as society has? Where the goal of an MES is to make a student more well-prepared for the future. And this is restrained from the student because of Standardized Tests, and an income scheme by most schools to receive more income to keep everything at balance.

Also, for the statement of retention being given through your standardized tests; that shows if the student is ready for graduation or not is just a curve, by the state, to keep a schools popularity up. As a teacher yourself, at times you must be surprised on how some students you expected to fail; pass? A student who had the lack of irresponsibility, and yet passed on this test to determine if he or she graduates. Which illuminates the effect of the "easy route", in order to retain a high popularity rating. Not only in your state, but numerous other states. Stated in numerous articles in the time of 2013 to 2015.

As well as, if the system does work, where the student does pass with a great score with loads of studying and responsibility; how much information after school in retained? Can it be used to contribute towards society in the future then?
MagicAintReal

Con

Pro said "in his or her school system, where for students to graduate, they are required to have five or less excuses for absences in order to pass the quarter".
No, to reluctantly clarify, the students can have more than 5 absences, as long as they are excused. So they could have well over 5 excuses because, by law, any absence's excuse confirmed by a parent at the phone number/e-mail given to the district, must be excused. Once students begin reaching the 20% of school days missed for the quarter, excused or unexcused, they fail the quarter. Health catastrophes are exceptions, because they qualify for home and hospital.

Basically Pro said that everything that my particular public school system is doing "is great and all, but only for Maryland; where the given debate is in discussion about the whole country."
As I suspected, Pro didn't bother researching whether or not Maryland was unique, so I did.
https://nces.ed.gov...
If you don't want to go the site, it says that all 50 states' and Washington DC's school systems align with Common Core State Standards/College and Career-Ready Standards, When Federal money pays for public schools in your state, the federal laws and standards travel with the money. Uniformity is not an issue with the MES.
Looking around the site provided, you see a lot of standardization among state school districts.

Pro says "For the simple fact of attempting to keep the schools popularity rate up. Because if we consider the funding for a school, it is achieved through popularity rating of how good or bad the school is,"
Please explain what a popularity rate is, and how this is what determines if schools receive money. Whether or not your school is hated or liked has nothing to do with the funding it receives. Whether or not your school is Title I has way more to do with the funding it receives; this is across the country.

Pro says "if all of a sudden students failed to graduate for loads of absences; the school would be hated."
No ifs about it! Every year in America, students fail to graduate for loads of absences....except no one is hating the school. They are hating the school system for their policies that seem to limit otherwise potentially productive citizens' futures. The complaints we hear as teachers, even those in the National Education Association of which I am apart, are these rules are too stringent.

Pro continues "because if most schools, besides Maryland, are all "tweaking" the true grades (Through test curves); than no true responsibility is given."
These curves do not happen on the standardized tests. You either meet a standardized number or you don't; there is no curve. Loads of students fail every year in America, because they can't reach these numbers. What's interesting is that schools who are under-performing actually get more funding in the long run with an infuse of money, highly qualified teachers, and resources.

Pro further says "For the standardized tests, we can both come to agreement that they are at times "silly"; however, they truly do add more stress to a students life. And, stated under the website 'Demo-List-Ic", it states: "A student who has stress, will lack motivation".
I would agree that adding stress to a student's life decreases their motivation, but if Pro is arguing that this doesn't--as Pro said--"make a student more well-prepared for the future" then Pro has to agree that being stressed and unmotivated isn't part of having a real job in the future.

Pro says "As a teacher yourself, at times you must be surprised on how some students you expected to fail; pass?"
Yes, this is when I credit teachers for getting the kid prepared correctly...what's interesting is the converse is rarely true...I rarely see kids fail that should have passed. When we get the failure list, there are very few surprises.

Also because there is no curve on standardized tests, there really isn't much "tweaking" of standardized data. The schools merely administer the test, and the state grades everything. If Pro is claiming that the states behave in this manner, then Pro has the burden of proof to demonstrate that as well.

I reject the claim that the MES does not help our kids' retention or makes our kids' retention worse, because the retention tests are not curved, schools don't receive money for "popularity" that motivates them to tweak scores and be liked, and Maryland is not unique with regards to standards of which Pro approves.
Debate Round No. 2
SnaxAttack

Pro

To begin my conclusion to the debate, I would like to thank my opponent for a fun debate, and hope he or she enjoyed it as well. Now for "business", my opponents clarifies that students can have more than 5 absences, as long as they are excused. And parents must notify the school beforehand, but the student cannot miss 20% of the schools quarter, unless for a health hazard. I bring this subject up for the argument because of how it can ruin a schools popularity rating.

To clarify, where my opponent asked what a "Popularity Rate" is, in which it is basically the amount of attention a school receives by passers. Examples being parents, and richer people willing to fund the school;and this can only be received with a high popularity rating for the school. The best way to achieve this is to have the school have a higher academic advantage over other schools. When a school becomes very linear towards the "easy route", stated in my first argument, with absences, then the school is actually showing more irresponsibility, than responsibility.

Stated in a statistic, from New York Times, it said: "The most common core reason of why most young adults are irresponsible, is because of the lack of attention from their guardian". The parent being busy with their jobs, trying to fund for their child's survival and future. And when the child asks to be "excused", the parent willingly do it, not knowing about the future consequences. This gives more irresponsibility to an already corrupt MES system! However, I do agree that I child should be excused if having a health hazard.

Next, my opponent brings up a statistic which I didn't bother to research. I thank you my opponent for pulling up the statistic, but the debate mainly falls under whether or not MES should be changed or stay the same. Where it should be changed, because if revealing that students can have five or more absences, where in my 2nd argument I loved the idea of focusing on five or less absences to fail the quarter, then it helps proves on how corrupt our MES is. To reveal how easy it is to manipulate it, and how irresponsibility can take place inside schools across the country.

My opponent then states: "Every year in America, students fail to graduate for loads of absences....except no one is hating the school. They are hating the school system for their policies that seem to limit otherwise potentially productive citizens' futures". Where my opponent actually admits that many students fail to graduate school because of loads of absences, showing how easy it is to manipulate the system. Putting more irresponsibility into the future of our country of the United States, and also showing how much the public hates the school system for "holding back" possible productive citizens.

A schools job, which we can hopefully both agree upon, is to prepare a child's future. To be responsible, make rightful decisions, and live a happy life. And if the current MES is holding that student back, complained by the public, then that further proves why this debate goes more to the Pro, than Con.

Then, my opponent states that standardized tests cannot be curved. Where to clarify what I was saying, I was saying that regular tests given in the schools (Like Pop Quizzes, or Vocabulary Tests) are curved. Where a teacher can easily curve the test if all the students fail, showing a more "Easier Route" than a more stricter MES.

To conclude my argument, I argue that a schools MES (Modern Education System) is false and makes a students education much worse, than a more possible "stricter" system. A system where it grants students the classes they need for their future job they want, and not going "easy" on the students. Because a student must learn responsibility, and the best way this is given through the years of school a student goes through. My opponent argues that the current MES is great and should stay like so, but forgets that it is corrupt. Allowing students to take the "easy route" and become irresponsible. Do we want that for the future of this country? Our MES needs to look at more on ideas to better a student for their future, and stay strict in order for the student to gain the responsibility it needs. Thank you for the debate my fellow opponent! :)
MagicAintReal

Con

Thanks for the debate Pro.
I know I should forfeit this round, but things must be clarified.

Pro asserts "Popularity Rate' is...the amount of attention a school receives by passers...parents...richer people willing to fund the school."

Schools in the MES receive money from the State, and the State receives money from the federal government... not funding from passersby. If Pro is using "fund" to mean "pay with taxes", there would be no reason to impress "passers", as they would be forced to pay the taxes, popular school or not.

Pro says "the debate mainly falls under whether or not MES should be changed or stay the same."
But the claim made by Pro was that a stringent system like Maryland was unique, so the statistic was to show uniformity of standards in the MES.
If Pro wishes to change the MES, they have to agree with changing Maryland's stringent system of which Pro advocates for more.

Further Pro says "Where my opponent actually admits that many students fail to graduate school because of loads of absences, "
Yes, the MES is so focused on accountability that many unaccountable students fail for valid reasons. This is counter to a reason Pro claims the MES is making our students worse.

I must defend my fellow competent teachers, when Pro says "regular tests given in the schools...are curved...a teacher can easily curve the test if all the students fail, showing a more "Easier Route" than a more stricter MES."

Nope. When students take classroom (not standardized) tests nowadays, pop quizzes or otherwise, the students use computers, that track their raw data and progress, to take these assessments.
The students immediately see the grade they received on the test...raw data...no curve. The programs we use for quizzes and tests don't even have options for a curve. Yes, teachers can manipulate grade books, and this is unacceptable, but test data is becoming very accurate.

No competent teacher would curve a totally failed test...give us a little credit.

Pro argues "MES...is false and..much worse, than a more possible "stricter" system."
and at the same time argues "if the current MES is holding that student back [because of absences]...complained by the public, then that further proves why this debate goes more to the Pro, than Con."

So both are true? The MES is worse than a stricter system, and the MES is too strict with holding kids back for attendance?

I reject the claim that the MES does not help our students' retention from school and that the MES makes students' retention from school worse, because Pro has failed to meet their Burden of Proof.

*accountability in the MES
Pro says it's good in Maryland. Maryland's standards are the same in all 50 state schools and DC, therefore MES is good.

*retention in the MES
All of the secured standardized tests required to graduate test retention. If a student graduated, they retained.

*Popularity Rates of Schools
Were never demonstrated by Pro as the reasons for a school's funding under the MES as our MES is funded by taxes.

*Pro thinks good, Pro thinks bad.
Pro claims the MES isn't strict enough on accountability, and that it is too strict on accountability.
Pro says in the MES "Students are not accountable" and in the MES "many students fail to graduate school because of loads of absences...putting more irresponsibility into the future of our country of the United States"

Failing kids for attendance is holding them accountable, but students failing for attendance leads to irresponsibility in the future?

I reject the claim the MES makes students retention and accountability worse.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by kathleenrueb 1 year ago
kathleenrueb
Kids learning system should be altered in a way to support and encourage their potential talents of kids. If some kids are passionate about vehicles and its workings, some others may be interested in writing. The students who are interested in writing can make use of custom essay writing service http://essayacademia.com... for knowing varieties of writing tips. Each kid should be treated based on their aptitude and interest.
Posted by SnaxAttack 1 year ago
SnaxAttack
"Kids Learning system" is basically how much a kid retains information from school.
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
I will gladly accept the con side to this argument if you can explain what you mean by "kid's learning system".
No votes have been placed for this debate.