The Instigator
InfraRedEd
Pro (for)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Con (against)
Winning
77 Points

Money is worthless.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/12/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,049 times Debate No: 7813
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (14)

 

InfraRedEd

Pro

Our government is on such spending spree, giving away several hundred dollars of the average American's money per month, and hitting thirteen trillion dollars since the finanncial feeding frenzy began, and giving it all to the rich to further enslave us, and adding it to the already uncountable fourteen-digit debt we already have, and crowding out private domestic capital, that we are now sitting at a poker table and someone else at the tale has thirteen trillion dollars. This is roughly two thousand dollars per person in the world. It is clearly not for buying things but for the purpose of manipulation of money itself. I don't know how much actual paper money there is (left) in the world but anyway compared to thirteen trillion dollars in one place you might just as well hand it over as well. I have only used 11% of my space but can't think of anything more to say on the subject.

The new First Dog is named Bo.

Americans drink an average of fifty gallons of soda pop per year, suffer most from obesity and refuse to exerise and now want the government to proveide health care.

The solution to the crime problem is to make street gangs provide full medical.

Happy Easter Everybody.
Kleptin

Con

I thank my opponent for creating this debate and look forward to hearing his opinions on the issue.

The topic is "Money is worthless" and my opponent is debating on the "pro" side, meaning, he seeks to prove that money is worthless while I seek to prove that money is not worthless.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...[3]

"Money" is a medium of exchange in the market, and "worth" is something having monetary value.

By its very definition, Money has worth, equivalent to that which is printed on said item of money.

I am at a loss of comprehension for the relation between what my opponent has said to the topic question, but I will say this: If I take my money, and walk over to the store, I can, indeed, exchange said money for some material goods. Such as bread or condoms.

That having been said, money is indeed worth something.

I look forward to my opponent's response.
Debate Round No. 1
InfraRedEd

Pro

Ah but you spending the money is only part of the story. Let's start at a logical point of departure: You decide that instead of just growing your own damn food you have this ingenious plan to work for money which you will then exchange for food. So we will have to explore the consequences of the work you do for this money, instead of farming, as well as what General Mills will do with that money you give it for the food you didn't grow yourself, as compared with what you could have done with your labor instead. Well if your money is so valuable why are you so eager to get rid of it? Why don't you save it? Because you know that is a losing proposition. It is becoming worthless and you had better get something for it while you can.

There certainly is a great deal of satisfaction in growing your own food but you may never know because you have been conned into trading your labor for money and giving that money to General Mills to grow some more biofuel. You certainly didn't think they were going to grow food when biofuels are so much more profitable. So next time you go to the market the bread will be a little, in fact a lot, higher and you can certainly see this effect if you visit the market very much. Soon you will have no job anyway and be forced to grow your own food and drugs and rubber as well. Even if you are fortunate enough to get a job it will with the medical establishment which makes its money by denying health care to America. It is because of them that our health care situation is so bad. Big Medicine has been doing everything in its power to limit the availablity of health care in order to make a buck. You will probably work Big Pharma, except for the "probably" part, working to patent things that grow in the ground and have been used for thousands of years by indiginous peoples, and make them pay for it. So while you are working for that precious money you are making the situation worse for all of us, and giving more power to Big Pharma and since you will have to buy your condoms from them soon they will cost $100 each. Too bad you didn't just grow your own rubber.

Well since money is so valuable you will certainly want to get to work to replace that money you gave to General Mills for that loaf of bread. That money prevented you from growing your own food and instead merely increased you dependence on a system which makes money by denying you food. There is enough food in the world to feed everybody, but some people just don't have enough money to buy it. Biofuels are produced in great quantity despite the environmental consequences because they are quite profitable, making the food problem worse by decreasing the amount of food produced. This is a consequence of the folly of using the market, and the almighty dollar, to make our policy decisions for us. Other examples abound.

Even thinking in terms of money can lead to ridiculous conclusions. Examining the government report in my comment, we see that household net worth fell 11.2 trillion in this quarter. That's about thirty thousand dollars for every man, woman and child in the country. You are not likely to have made that much. That is part of the price you pay by being on the money standard. You will soon be worthless too (by an admittedly erroneous logic, "Money Logic"). Following that line of logic, if you sell everything now you can get a decent price for it but you are losing three hundred dollars for every day you delay. The fallacy here is that it is the money you will receive that will lose its value, and indeed common sense tells you: Get rid of worthless money. Your furniture will always have value. So we can see that even thinking of things in terms of money, which is losing its value by the minute, leads to erroneous conclusions.

Money allows one person to accumulate unlimited wealth and manipulate the value of it. It would be pretty ridiculous to try to own all the cows (say) but with money you have a shot at it. We can save a lot of time if you will simply admit that this is a very bad thing. I have used just over half of my space however and can continue if you wish.
Kleptin

Con

I thank my opponent for his post and shall now rebutt.

Yes, I admit it is a terrible thing. Save for the fact that with money, I can now specialize in 1 field of work and reap the benefits of every other field of work using money as a medium of exchange. The value of money is in what it can be exchanged for. The fact that I am "getting rid of it" does not show that it is worthless. Gasoline has worth simply because it can be consumed as a fuel. By your logic, this destruction of gasoline means it is worthless? I think there is a flaw in my opponent's logic.

Now, my opponent has dedicated his entire post to explaining why money is bad and evil, citing a multitude of conspiracy-theory-like situations as to how money will lead to the destruction of society. First of all, my opponent is merely speculating. Second of all, my opponent makes a few nice points, however, none of it whatsoever is dedicated to explaining why money is worthless.

Since my opponent's post neither backed up his position nor offered a counterpoint to mine, I shall reiterate my point:

Money can be exchanged for other things. Therefore, it has worth and is not, as my opponent states, worthless.

I look forward to my opponent's response. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
InfraRedEd

Pro

Well if my posts neither support my position nor refute yours you will certainly win this debate; however there remains the possibility you are not reading them; therefore in any case I need not exert myself too much except to point out that under a barter system you would of course still be free to specialize but trade your labor directly for something of value, and that pointing out that money is evil and has negative value technically does not support the idea of money being worthless, it should count toward it being more worthless.
Since you did not present any data to support your opinion or refute mine either I guess it will be decided by looks.
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Kleptin

Con

My opponent brings up a good point about the barter system. However, there would be no objective method of properly comparing one thing to another, making it very difficult to do business. In addition, need for one's services is not constant. Having an intermediate is more convenient than going through multiple sources of bartering.

Regardless, this point that my opponent is hanging on is in relation to whether or not money is necessary, and has nothing to do whatsoever with whether or not money is worthless.

My opponent has childishly decided to give up this debate, so I accept his legitimate albeit disrespectful forfeit.

Thank you to my opponent and to the audience.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
My bank just paid me one cent interest. Can they really afford to throw their bailout money around like that?
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
Well you have to count all the other things you are buying which come with the bread at no extra charge.
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
http://www.prosebeforehos.com... This debate is on track to become the most viewed (currently Breathing Should Be Banned) in a day or so.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
er, should read

"The alternative to the fake gun-backed worth of fiat is not farming, it's commodity backing. Geez."
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
The alternative to the fake gun-backed worth of money is not fiat, it's commodity backing. Geez.
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
Kleptin
@IR

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by "worthless". I can still take this $5 bill and go buy food. As of this moment. That ability did not go away during the course of this debate, regardless of whether or not it will go away in the future.

I think that we'll never hit the point in time where subsistence farming will be necessary. If anything, synthetically manufactured food will hit the markets first. A combination of vitamin pills, concentrated protein, starch, fiber, etc. Those things will probably come out of tax money. It will do away with food stamps, which is good too.
Posted by InfraRedEd 7 years ago
InfraRedEd
Look out Klep. Closing the gap. Flare you are AWOL from http://www.debate.org... but I am delighted to see the cross-pollination. My point is that the money you now have in your pocket, if any, is worthless but whatever.

Subsistence farming may not be possible but then survival may not be possible either.

Kill Industry?! Lack of it is killing people. Oh I forgot you're a chicanero, as they say in Spanish.

http://www.democracynow.org...
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
Kleptin
Agreed. The solution to a problem is not necessarily uprooting everything the problem is associated with from the ground up. Corporate greed shouldn't be solved by dissolving all economic practice.
Posted by Flare_Corran 7 years ago
Flare_Corran
Universal subsistence farming would kill industry.... and all of society come to think of it.
People would not be able to exchange ANY good or service (aside from bartering of course, but that would effectively create money).

A single farmer can produce enough food today to feed hundreds, if not thousands of people. However, it's unlikely that he can grow corn AND catch enough fish to satisfy his family AND reroof his house AND pump gas for his tractor AND make pesticides AND put together his own car.

And those are just a few things. I didn't even mention water, power, heat, or health care. That's why we have money. I don't know how to build a car from scratch and I doubt someone'd take corn to pay for it.
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Vote Placed by Charlie_Danger 7 years ago
Charlie_Danger
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Vote Placed by Kleptin 7 years ago
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