The Instigator
mongeese
Pro (for)
Winning
46 Points
The Contender
patsox834
Con (against)
Losing
38 Points

Mongeese's Ultimate Team War

Do you like this debate?NoYes+5
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/8/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,020 times Debate No: 8565
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (60)
Votes (14)

 

mongeese

Pro

This is the Ultimate World Domination Team War. Each debater must assemble a team of five people, and the teams will then fight to the death. Since we cannot have an actual real-life battle, each debater will explain why their team is superior during this debate. This was inspired by MTGandP, and his debate here: http://www.debate.org...

DEFINITIONS
Team leader: One of the debaters here, i.e. me and whoever accepts the debate.
Team member: One of the five chosen warriors.

RULES
1. Battles take place on an earthlike planet; there is a human population, but humans will not interfere with the war unless forced to become involved.
2. No team member may have unlimited abilities in one or more particular areas.
3. Every team member must be either real or, if fictional, verifiably existent. No characters may be made up for the purpose of this debate.
4. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader.
5. Every character has only the equipment that they generally have in the specified canon. For instance, Master Chief (from Halo) has a full set of armor, a pistol and an assault rifle, while Cyclops (X-Men) has his visor.
6. Team members are absolutely loyal to the team leader, unless subjected to some form of mind control by the opposing team. For example, though Superman and Lex Luthor are enemies, they could still be on the same team.
7. The team leader may not directly participate in the competition, but may only facilitate. The role of the team leader is to explain what the team would do and why it would win against the opposing team.
8. Neither team can have a member in common. If one team leader chooses a team member, the other team cannot have that person.
9. No one may choose Chuck Norris, on the grounds that a) his powers are somewhat vague and b) he is excessively overpowered.

(PRO unveils only three team members in round one for two reasons. The first is so that PRO does not get first dibs on choosing all five team members. The second is so that CON cannot gain an advantage by choosing team members that directly counter PRO's team.)

Round 1: Rule specifications; PRO unveils first three team members, CON unveils all five team members.

Round 2: PRO unveils his final two team members and explains why his team is better. CON also begins his/her arguments.

Round 3, 4, 5: Arguments and rebuttals. Con may not present any new arguments during round 5, since Pro has no chance to rebut them.

========
Opening
========

Team Member 1: Twilight Link (The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess)

Link (http://zelda.wikia.com...) is the protagonist of Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. He is about 17 years old, and posesses the Triforce of Courage (http://zelda.wikia.com...), giving him immunity to some dark magic and the ability to wield his sword, the Master Sword (http://zelda.wikia.com...).
His weapons include everything found here (http://zelda.wikia.com...), plus a few unmentioned things, such as Fused Shadows (http://zelda.wikia.com...) and a shadow crystal (http://zelda.wikia.com...). He also has the power to turn into a wolf (http://zelda.wikia.com...).
http://zelda.wikia.com...

========
Team Member 2: Ganondorf Dragmire (The Legend of Zelda series)

Ganondorf (http://zelda.wikia.com...) is the wielder of the Triforce of Power (http://zelda.wikia.com...). "Presumably through possession of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf gain near invulnerability and astonishing magical powers, even allowing transformation into various beastly forms and, apparently, granting immortality." However, in this debate, he only has to be defeated, not killed.
Ganondorf is also capable of controlling other people. http://zelda.wikia.com...
http://zelda.wikia.com...

========
Team Member 3: Yugi Muto

http://yugioh.wikia.com...

Yugi is a kid with a deck of Duel Monsters cards.

He also posesses the Millenium Puzzle (http://yugioh.wikia.com...), which allows him to switch minds with his "alter-ego," Atem.

http://yugioh.wikia.com...

Using the power of the Millenium Puzzle, Yugi can cover the area around him with the Shadow Realm, allowing him to use his Duel Monster cards as physical beings and things.

http://yugioh.wikia.com...

That's a list of all of the cards in his decks at each time. For this debate, Yugi will have his deck from the Battle City Tournament.

========

I will post my other two team members and begin my arguments in round 2, after my opponent posts his or her team members.
patsox834

Con

I'd like to thank my opponent for starting this, uh, "interesting" debate.

Since my opponent already specified the rules, I'll get to showing my team:

1: Mewtwo: A legendary psychic type pokemon. His abilities, as quoted from bulbapedia, (1) are:

"Mewtwo is highly skilled with Psychic powers. It can fly through use of telekinesis, speak telepathically, and take control of another living being's mind. Mewtwo is also capable of wielding various types of attacks (but to a slightly lesser extent than Mew).

In the Pokļæ½mon Special manga, Mewtwo fights with a highly skilled combination of Psywaves and a giant spoon for long range and close range battles, respectively.

Mewtwo also has the ability to telekinetically create massive hurricanes powerful enough to destroy the planet. "

2: Doctor Manhattan. A character from the Watchmen graphic novel and film. He's capable of manipulating matter and energy at his will, regenerating, self-duplication, precognition, intangibility, and he has power over time and space. (2)

To put in one way, Manhattan is as close to omnipotent as you can without actually being omnipotent. So his powers do have limits...just really, really small ones.

3: Apocalypse: a comic book villain.

"Apocalypse is a mutant who possesses superhuman strength which he can augment by psionically drawing on outside energy sources. Apocalypse can alter the atomic structure of his body at will in order to change his form. He can even increase his size by taking on additional mass from a presumably extra-dimensional source. Through his ability to alter his form, Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power. Apocalypse's "costume" is actually part of his body, and he can psionically alter its appearance at will. He can levitate himself telekinetically.

Apocalypse has an extraordinarily long life span that has already lasted thousands of years. He can survive for weeks without food or water and can rapidly recover from injuries that would prove fatal to normal human beings. In the future, however, his physical form will eventually grow too aged and enfeebled to contain his vast superhuman energies. Hence, he will transfer his consciousness and powers into a succession of host bodies, abandoning each one when it too grows too old to contain his power." (3)

Just like Manhattan, Apocalypse is crazily close to being all-powerful -- but he isn't. There are extremely small limitations on his power.

4: Nezarr the Calculator. A member of the Celestials.

The only known limits he possesses are his reflexes, agility and speed, which are below average to average. He has the power to create illusions in a human's mind; he's also ~2000' tall. His strength, intelligence, and stamina are so great that they're unable to be determined (keep in mind that indeterminable =/= unlimited, so I'm well within the rules.) (4)

He's so strong that he's capable of destroying planets. (5)

5: the Silver Surfer. He's another comic book character.

As for his powers:

"The Silver Surfer wields "the power cosmic", absorbing and manipulating the universe's ambient cosmic energies. He can augment his strength to incalculable levels, and is almost totally indestructible. He can navigate space, hyperspace and dimensional barriers, and can fly at near-limitless speeds on his board, entering hyperspace when he exceeds light speed. He has even proven capable of time travel on occasion.

The Surfer does not require food, drink, air or sleep, sustained entirely by converting matter into energy. He is immune to temperature extremes and most radiation, and can survive in vacuum environments such as outer space and hyperspace. He can analyze and manipulate matter and energy, and restructure or animate matter at will, even transmuting elements.

He can heal living beings (though he cannot raise the dead), and has proven capable of revitalizing or evolving organic life on a planet wide scale. He can alter the size of himself or of other matter, cast illusions, fire energy blasts, form and manipulate energy constructs, manipulate gravity, absorb and discharge most forms of energy, and phase through solid matter.

His senses enable him to detect objects and energies light years away, and to perceive matter and energy in subatomic detail; he can even see through time, and with concentration can achieve limited perception of past and future events in his general vicinity. The Surfer has demonstrated limited telepathic ability on occasion, and has proven able to influence human emotion and sensation. "(6)

Ok. My team is complete, and I've violated no rules. Now let's see what my opponent can do.

(1) = http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...(Pok%C3%A9mon)
(2) = http://dc.wikia.com...
(3) = www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/a/apocalypse.htm
(4) = http://www.immortalthor.net...
(5) = http://www.immortalthor.net...
(6) = http://marvel.com...
Debate Round No. 1
mongeese

Pro

"Ok. My team is complete, and I've violated no rules. Now let's see what my opponent can do."
Oh? Are you sure?
"2. No team member may have unlimited abilities in one or more particular areas."
You say that many of your team members either have small limits or unknown limits. However, what are these small limits? You do not say. If a limit is unknown, then how can I know when you pushed him across this limit? I can't.
"4. In the case of a fictional character, the team member's abilities must be according to a specific canon chosen by the team leader"
You claim for Mewtwo to have both Special manga abilities and his abilities from the movie. You were supposed to pick.
Again, you have multiple characters that you have not set a limit on.
Doctor Manhattan has immortality and intangibility, which means that he can never be defeated.
"Since Apocalypse can increase his strength by drawing on outside energy sources, his strength is potentially incalculable."
How am I supposed to out-strength incalculable strength?
Neezar's page is covered with "immeasurable" things.
So, yeah, that's unlimited. If you don't know the limit, it doesn't have one.
So, you need some real limits, or you lose.

Now, for my remaining two team members:

Team Member 4: Jimmy Buffett

http://blog.cleveland.com...

Jimmy Buffett, mogul of Margaritaville. He plays his guitar and sings, and sings everybody into a trance, in which they all go to Margaritaville, drink margaritas, and become drunk. He can defeat anything that has a nervous system.

Team Member 5: Superman

http://www.superherodb.com...

His powers include X-ray vision, Telescopic Vision, Strength, Stamina, Speed, Microscopic vision, Jump, Invulnerability, Intelligence, Hypnokinesis, Heat vision, Hearing, Healing Factor, Flight, Enhanced Senses, Energy Absorption, Durability, and Breath.

Now, on to the strategies:
1. Shadow Realm / Margaritaville
Yugi uses his Millennium Puzzle to trap Team PRO (excluding Jimmy Buffett) and Mewtwo in the Shadow Realm. Yugi then switches over to Atem, who plays Brain Control, taking over Mewtwo's mind. He then sacrifices Mewtwo to play Summoned Skull. No more Mewtwo.
Meanwhile, Jimmy Buffett gets out his sound speakers and starts playing Margaritaville, so everybody else on Team CON goes to Margaritaville and becomes drunk, along with the entire human population of the planet.
Superman then flies over to Margaritaville, grabs the Silver Surfer, dragging him into the Shadow Realm, with permission of Yugi, who is the one who controls the Shadow Realm. Yugi then plays Mystical Elf, allowing him to re-use Brain Control, so he takes control of the Silver Surfer, and sacrifices the Silver Surfer to play Dark Magician Girl.
Jimmy Buffett, being the bartender at Margaritaville, informs Nezarr, Apocalypse, and Doctor Manhattan that they are hated by each other. They're drunk, so they all get mad, and get into a bar fight. They ultimately destroy each other.
Team CON is no more.

2. Shadow Realm
Yugi envelops everybody in the Shadow Realm, then plays Obelisk the Tormentor, Kuriboh, and Multiply, which gives him 1,000 Kuribohs. He sacrifices two to give Obelisk temporary invincibility and temporary unmatchable destructive power, which can be blocked with magic, but not defeated. Obelisk then attacks Doctor Manhattan, and destroys him.
Yugi plays Monster Reborn, giving him Doctor Manhattan.
Yugi then uses Brain Control, giving him Apocalypse.
Yugi then sacrifices Doctor Manhattan, Apocalypse, and Obelisk the Tormentor to play the Winged Dragon of Ra, who now has the total strength of the three of them combined.
The Winged Dragon of Ra then destroys Mewtwo, Nezarr, and the Silver Surfer.

3. Control
Yugi plays Swords of Revealing Light, immobilizing Team CON temporarily.
Ganondorf uses his Twilight powers to enter and take control of Doctor Manhattan.
Yugi uses Brain Control to take control of Apocalypse.
Yugi uses Mystical Elf to use Brain Control again, so he can take control of Nezarr the Calculator.
Yugi uses Monster Reborn to revive the Mystical Elf, then Monster Recovery to return it to his hand. He then uses the Mystical Elf again to use Brain Control yet again, taking control of the Silver Surfer.
Yugi uses Change of Heart to take control of Mewtwo.
Yugi sacrifices Doctor Manhattan, Ganondorf, Apocalypse, Nezarr the Calculator, the Silver Surfer, and Mewtwo to summon the Winged Dragon of Ra.
No more Team CON.

Other Strategies:
1.Superman can import the Statue of Liberty to the battlefield.
Link uses the Dominion Rod to control the Statue of Liberty and wield its torch to attack everybody.
2. Jimmy Buffett gets everybody drunk in Margaritaville.
Yugi uses Dark Hole.
Margaritaville is destroyed, along with Team CON.
3. Ganondorf transforms into his god form.
Link uses the Fused Shadows.
Superman flies close to a yellow star.
Yugi uses Obelisk, and sacrifices two Kuriboh.
They're all in extremely powerful, near-invincible temporary modes.
They destroy Team CON.

That would be all for now.

For any info on cards used by Yugi, use the Yu-Gi-Oh Wikipedia.
For any info on equipment used by Link, use the Zeldapedia.

Remember, limits!
patsox834

Con

<"If a limit is unknown, then how can I know when you pushed him across this limit? I can't.">

It was never specified that indeterminable and unknown limits could be used, so it's too bad; be more specific next time. Also, unknown =/= limitless, either.

<"You claim for Mewtwo to have both Special manga abilities and his abilities from the movie. You were supposed to pick.">

1: he can do the same thing he does in the manga in the movie, and vice versa. Mewtwo fights using telekinetic waves, and such; that trait isn't exclusive to any one area; it's something which definitively applies to him/her/whatever Mewtwo is. That power remains consistent in both the manga, the movie, and even in the video games (for gameboy. Ex: red, blue, gold, yellow, etc...)

2: the blurb about the manga doesn't introduce any new abilities of Mewtwo's, which negates his point that I chose abilities from two areas.

<"Doctor Manhattan has immortality and intangibility, which means that he can never be defeated.">

...uh-huh, and? That simply means it was a good pick; that's in no violation of the rules.

<"How am I supposed to out-strength incalculable strength?
Neezar's page is covered with "immeasurable" things.
So, yeah, that's unlimited. If you don't know the limit, it doesn't have one.
So, you need some real limits, or you lose.">

My opponent's rebuttal is...well, lacking. I'll rebut it point-by-point:

<""How am I supposed to out-strength incalculable strength?">

You can't. Hence the pick.

<"Neezar's page is covered with "immeasurable" things.
So, yeah, that's unlimited. If you don't know the limit, it doesn't have one.">

This is just plain wrong; there's no other way to put it. The logic of "X's limits can't be substantiated; therefore, X doesn't have limits," is a non-sequitur; the conclusion doesn't follow the premise.(1) Just because something is unquantifiable doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist.

And, again, indeterminable =/= unlimited.

<"So, you need some real limits, or you lose.">

Limits probably exist; they just aren't known, and, as stated multiple times, unknown =/= limitless. The rules can't be amended to say that limits have to be measurable and known during the debate.

<"His powers include X-ray vision, Telescopic Vision, Strength, Stamina, Speed, Microscopic vision, Jump, Invulnerability, Intelligence, Hypnokinesis, Heat vision, Hearing, Healing Factor, Flight, Enhanced Senses, Energy Absorption, Durability, and Breath.">

...if Doctor Manhattan is against the rules by your logic, then so would Superman be.

In the comments, my opponent stated the following:

<"Does he have a limit on his time power?
Does he have a limit on his matter power?
Does he have a limit on his energy power?">

Does Superman have a limit on his hearing power?
Does Superman have a limit on his heat vision?

...but such questions seem futile, because you cant place a limit on something in which limits can't logically apply, which means it cant be with nor without limits. it's essentially like asking if there's a limit on one's ability to walk -- sure, you can get tired, but there isn't an energy bar which runs out, rendering an individual unable to walk. It's the same thing with Manhattan's ability to manipulate time, energy, and matter -- there isn't an energy bar, which means limits don't apply.

The mentioned abilities aren't really fields in which having a magnitude of power makes sense.

Further, my opponent's rule states that an ability can't be unlimited; it doesn't say that limits absolutely have to apply.

Now, why my team is inherently superior to my opponent's team:

1: before my opponent can even think about making a move, Doctor Manhattan's ability to see the future allows him know what pro's team will do; the simply insane intelligence of him and Nezarr the Calculator then allow them to come up with a counterattack for any possible strategy pro could use, which means there's seemingly no strategy which can be used by pro to defeat my team, because they know what will happen, and are therefore, prepared.

2: quite a few members of my team have the ability to take control over another person: Mewtwo, Nezarr the Calculator, and the Silver Surfer. That means that if pro's team were to somehow take control of a member of my team, I can take control back immediately, using any of the members I previously mentioned. Also, if pro intended to take control of one of my team members, my team would already know, and would then take control of the member of pro's team who's trying to control a member of my team before he gets a chance to even make an attempt.

3: Doctor Manhattan can simply stop time, and vanquish all of my opponent's team to the outer limits of the universe -- battle over. Or he could use his ability to manipulate matter to defeat them with spontaneous combustion (ex: the way he killed Rorschach in the movie.)

4: Doctor Manhattan can stop time, and then vanquish my opponent's team to a far away planet. Mewtwo and Nezarr the Calculator then would destroy the planet with relative ease (after Manhattan ceases his stopping of time.)

5: the members of my team who can control members of my opponent's team would simply do so, and then make them fight to the death among themselves.

There are many, many scenarios I could use which are similar to the one's I've put forth. Simply put, my team cannot be defeated by my opponent's team; my team's ability to know what my opponent's team will do before they do it makes it so that they can counter anything my opponent does.

<"3. Ganondorf transforms into his god form.">

I mean, I'm getting criticized for using a guy who's close to being a god (Doctor Manhattan) -- but he's actually using a god? The rules my opponent has seemingly randomly attempted to apply to me mustn't apply to him -- he's clearly attempting to distort the rules to fit his side of the debate.

(1) = http://mw1.m-w.com...
Debate Round No. 2
mongeese

Pro

My opponent clearly has unlimited abilities over time. Therefore, he has broken the rules.

As for the Mewtwo thing, Mewtwo does not use a spoon in the anime.

Doctor Manhattan clearly has unlimited abilities.

Superman can hear things around the world. I'm pretty sure that that's the limit.
Superman's heat vision cannot vaporize things that cannot be vaporized. They also cannot go through an atmosphere that does not support vaporization.

1. My opponent claims that Doctor Manhattan and Nezarr can do the planning for him. According to Rule 7, that is the team leader's job.

2. Yugi can take control of two people at once, and Ganondorf can control another. Together, they can control Mewtwo, Nezarr the Calculator, and the Silver Surfer. Yugi can then sacrifice all three to summon the Winged Dragon of Ra, eliminating them. Ra would have the strength of all three of them combined.

3. My opponent thinks that time power will mean anything. However, he forgets Jimmy Buffett, whose mere presence causes the planet to become Margaritaville.
Go to the YouTube video, and look at 3:04.
"It's always on five in Margaritaville, come to think of it." - Jimmy Buffett
Time is already stopped, although people can still move about and such. Time does not pass. The ability to freeze time becomes irrelevant. This also nullifies the ability to see into the future, because all that you can see in the future is another margarita.

4. Again, Jimmy Buffett -> Margaritaville -> 5 o' clock -> Time powers nullified

5. Yugi's Brain Control and Change of Heart are more absolute. Furthermore, you can't use mind control on Yugi, as Yami Yugi prevents that with the Millennium Puzzle. Link is protected with his Triforce of Courage, Ganondorf cannot be controlled once he converts himself into Twilight particles to take over someone else. Furthermore, both Superman and Jimmy Buffett are drunk because of Margaritaville, and Yugi, Link, and Ganondorf are in the Shadow Realm, protecting them from Margaritaville. Again, bar fight.

Anyways, my original plans remain uncontested.

"I mean, I'm getting criticized for using a guy who's close to being a god (Doctor Manhattan) -- but he's actually using a god? The rules my opponent has seemingly randomly attempted to apply to me mustn't apply to him -- he's clearly attempting to distort the rules to fit his side of the debate."
As a 'god,' Ganondorf is not omnipotent.

See the second video for 'god' Ganondorf, more accurately known as Flamin' Head Ganondorf. He was defeated by Midna and the Fused Shadow. In this form, he has high destructive capabilities, and can appear to others as a deity, but he isn't really a god.
patsox834

Con

I'm going to respond to my opponent's strategies out of order, because doing so makes it easier for me to formulate my rebuttals.

<"My opponent clearly has unlimited abilities over time. Therefore, he has broken the rules.">

I mean, I already addressed this; it's as if my opponent is sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

<"As for the Mewtwo thing, Mewtwo does not use a spoon in the anime.">

Spoons are an object; not an ability.

<"Doctor Manhattan clearly has unlimited abilities.">

...I mean, there's absolutely no rationale here. My opponent is just making an unsupported claim. I've already addressed the argument that Manhattan has unlimited abilities, so my opponent is essentially rehashing his argument -- he's using points which I've already addressed.

<"Superman can hear things around the world. I'm pretty sure that that's the limit.
Superman's heat vision cannot vaporize things that cannot be vaporized. They also cannot go through an atmosphere that does not support vaporization.">

The fact that my opponent actually answered these questions is telling me that he misunderstands my argument. I wasn't at all trying to say that Superman has unlimited abilities; I was saying that questions such as the ones my opponent asked are futile. I then asked questions of the same fashion to him to help show why -- but my opponent seemingly didn't realized that, and answered the questions anyway, and in doing so, helped show the futility of his own questions. So...thanks. As I said: "if Doctor Manhattan is against the rules by your logic, then so would Superman be."

...since Superman isn't against the rules, then Manhattan mustn't be, either.

<"My opponent claims that Doctor Manhattan and Nezarr can do the planning for him. According to Rule 7, that is the team leader's job.">

My plan is to let them plan a counterattack to my opponents attack by using Doctor Manhattan's ability to see the future, and Nezarr the Calculator and Manhattan's extreme intelligence. So yeah, no rule is broken.

<"My opponent thinks that time power will mean anything. However, he forgets Jimmy Buffett, whose mere presence causes the planet to become Margaritaville.">

There is absolutely zero logic behind the above statement. Whether the planet is "Margaritaville" or not is completely independent from Manhattan's ability to cease time.

<"Time is already stopped, although people can still move about and such. Time does not pass.">

...time not passing is exactly why people *can't* "move about and such." My opponent just isn't making sense here.

<"Yugi's Brain Control and Change of Heart are more absolute. Furthermore, you can't use mind control on Yugi, as Yami Yugi prevents that with the Millennium Puzzle. Link is protected with his Triforce of Courage, Ganondorf cannot be controlled once he converts himself into Twilight particles to take over someone else. Furthermore, both Superman and Jimmy Buffett are drunk because of Margaritaville, and Yugi, Link, and Ganondorf are in the Shadow Realm, protecting them from Margaritaville. Again, bar fight.">

The Millennium Puzzle is mere matter, which both Manhattan and the Silver Surfer can control. They can destroy the the Millennium Puzzle if they see fit, which therefore negates Yugi's anti-mind control crap. Plus, Yugi's cards can be destroyed, as well. So can he. They're all composed of energy and matter, which means they're at the will of Manhattan and the Surfer; they can do anything they want to Yugi.

As for Link, here's some info on the Triforce of courage:

"The Triforce of Courage seems to grant its holder certain abilities, though this is never canonically confirmed." (1)

So, the idea that the Triforce of Courage protects Link cannot be verified by the "canon" my opponent has chosen, which therefore means it's irrelevant, and that my opponent has broken a rule by applying a trait to Link which is "non-canonical."

Besides, it wouldn't be too difficult for Manhattan nor the Surfer to break the Triforce of Courage up, leaving Link even more vulnerable than he would be. Link can also be essentially evaporated by either of them. So can Jimmy Buffett.

I'd also like to point out that my opponent's "bar fight" strategy can be used against him, if I chose to control Buffett rather than evaporate him.

And Ganondorf wouldn't get an opportunity to change forms -- as I said, *any* attack my opponent launch's at my team will be consequently counterattacked, and thus negated, thanks to Manhattan and Nezarr the Calculator. Ganondorf would either be evaporated, controlled, sent into space, etc. There are many things which could be done to make it so Ganondorf wouldn't even get a chance to use his power.

<"Yugi can take control of two people at once, and Ganondorf can control another. Together, they can control Mewtwo, Nezarr the Calculator, and the Silver Surfer. Yugi can then sacrifice all three to summon the Winged Dragon of Ra, eliminating them. Ra would have the strength of all three of them combined.">

Although I've already negated the possibility of this happening (with my response to my opponent's fifth point), I'll respond anyway:

I'd still be left with Doctor Manhattan and Apocalypse. Manhattan is essentially unable to be defeated, anyway, but Apocalypse could easily give Manhattan his complete power, and Manhattan could then create as many copies of himself as he wanted. The Winged Dragon of Ra, nor anyone or anything, would be any match for 1,000,000 Doctor Manhattan's with Apocalypse's power combined with him. Especially since Manhattan cannot be killed, nor perceived. You can't defeat what you can't see, hear, or touch, especially when it has the power of two of the most powerful character's in the comic book/graphic novel universe.

<"Anyways, my original plans remain uncontested.">

Not at all. In fact, my strategies are the ones which remain "uncontested," especially the following one:

"1: before my opponent can even think about making a move, Doctor Manhattan's ability to see the future allows him know what pro's team will do; the simply insane intelligence of him and Nezarr the Calculator then allow them to come up with a counterattack for any possible strategy pro could use, which means there's seemingly no strategy which can be used by pro to defeat my team, because they know what will happen, and are therefore, prepared."

None of my other strategies have been rationally rebutted, either. Yugi's cards and puzzle can easily be destroyed, making him very susceptible to mind control, and making it so that he can't use any mind control of his own. That in mind, my second strategy obviously stands (I'd post it again, but yeah...character limit.)

My opponent hasn't offered a logical retort to #3, #4, nor #5, either; Manhattan can still easily vanquish them to the outer limits of the universe, or some plant which would then be destroyed, and he can still evaporate them (as can the Surfer.) I've already shown that my opponent's team is still susceptible to mind control, so yeah.

<"Simply put, my team cannot be defeated by my opponent's team; my team's ability to know what my opponent's team will do before they do it makes it so that they can counter anything my opponent does.">

This point still remains, as well.

...

I'd like to point out something my opponent had said earlier:

<"Doctor Manhattan has immortality and intangibility, which means that he can never be defeated.">

My opponent admits that Manhattan cannot be defeated, which means my team can't be defeated, which means my opponent can't win. He's essentially conceded the debate.

...I have more to say, but, unfortunately, the character limit is making it so that I can't post it, so yeah.

(1) = http://zelda.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
mongeese

Pro

"Spoons are an object; not an ability."
It's a piece of equipment that isn't allowed.

If Manhattan can stop time and travel through time as he pleases, without being able to be stopped, then it's an unlimited ability.

"The fact that my opponent actually answered these questions is telling me that he misunderstands my argument."
The fact is, Superman has limits. You don't.

"...since Superman isn't against the rules, then Manhattan mustn't be, either."
Superman has limits. Manhattan doesn't.

"My plan is to let them plan a counterattack to my opponents attack by using Doctor Manhattan's ability to see the future, and Nezarr the Calculator and Manhattan's extreme intelligence. So yeah, no rule is broken."
However, if the plan cannot be countered, then you're out of luck. Besides, I already tell you my strategy. You can't just say that Nezarr would know what to do. I can't counter, "He does something."

"There is absolutely zero logic behind the above statement. Whether the planet is 'Margaritaville' or not is completely independent from Manhattan's ability to cease time."
Wrong. Margaritaville nullifies your time powers.

"...time not passing is exactly why people *can't* 'move about and such.' My opponent just isn't making sense here."
The time is stopped at five o' clock. Time doesn't pass, but everybody thinks that it does. It's kind of like how Manhattan can still move after freezing time, but everybody in Margaritaville can still move.

"The Millennium Puzzle is mere matter, which both Manhattan and the Silver Surfer can control."
Yugi can put the puzzle back together again if you shatter it. Plus, it's protected by dark magic.

"Plus, Yugi's cards can be destroyed, as well."
Yugi is in the Shadow Realm. Apparently, you lack power over dimensions.

"Besides, it wouldn't be too difficult for Manhattan nor the Surfer to break the Triforce of Courage up, leaving Link even more vulnerable than he would be. Link can also be essentially evaporated by either of them. So can Jimmy Buffett."
The Triforce of Courage does grant certain protection, and the Triforce of Courage isn't matter.
Ganondorf can lend some of the Triforce of Power to Jimmy Buffett, protecting him.

"I'd also like to point out that my opponent's 'bar fight' strategy can be used against him, if I chose to control Buffett rather than evaporate him."
However, Link and Yugi are underage, so they don't drink.

"And Ganondorf wouldn't get an opportunity to change forms -- as I said, *any* attack my opponent launch's at my team will be consequently counterattacked, and thus negated, thanks to Manhattan and Nezarr the Calculator. Ganondorf would either be evaporated, controlled, sent into space, etc. There are many things which could be done to make it so Ganondorf wouldn't even get a chance to use his power."
You see? This is what happens when unlimited powers are used. However, Ganondorf can't be evaporated or controlled, and sending him into space wouldn't defeat him.

"Manhattan is essentially unable to be defeated, anyway..."
Bada-bing, bada-boom. My opponent has clearly broken the rules, and has broken the spirit of Ultimate Team War.

"My opponent hasn't offered a logical retort to #3, #4, nor #5, either; Manhattan can still easily vanquish them to the outer limits of the universe, or some plant which would then be destroyed, and he can still evaporate them (as can the Surfer.) I've already shown that my opponent's team is still susceptible to mind control, so yeah."
See? Unlimited powers.

"My opponent admits that Manhattan cannot be defeated, which means my team can't be defeated, which means my opponent can't win. He's essentially conceded the debate."
He has the unlimited power of immortality. Therefore, he broke Rule 2, and loses the debate because of it.

Unlimited abilities destroy this game.

However, Margaritaville renders time control useless, allowing Yugi enough time to hide in the Shadow Realm with the rest of Team PRO. Neither Team PRO nor Team CON can do anything, because Team CON lacks power over the Shadow Realm. It's a draw.

However, I still win, because he broke Rule 2.

Vote PRO.

I don't even get why anybody would want to read about omnipotent superheroes. They obviously can't be defeated, so you can't have an epic fight where they might get defeated.
patsox834

Con

"It's a piece of equipment that isn't allowed."

Sure it is. I never used two sources to give Mewtwo any powers, equipment, etc. Mewtwo's powers were generally described, and then it was mentioned that he/she/it uses a piece of equipment specifically in the manga. I didn't use anything "non-canonical."

My opponent has decided to rehash more points in his argument. We're just gonna be going around in circles if he chooses to use arguments and points which have already been negated. Such arguments are:

"If Manhattan can stop time and travel through time as he pleases, without being able to be stopped, then it's an unlimited ability."

"The fact is, Superman has limits. You don't."

"Superman has limits. Manhattan doesn't."

Firstly, my opponent clearly doesn't know much about Watchmen, and how Adrien Veidt rendered Doctor Manhattan useless.

But that's all irrelevant, because I've already addressed these points in my second round argument; my opponent has chosen not to put forth a retort to the argument *I* put forth; he's merely using the same argument I addressed, which means my argument stands.

"However, if the plan cannot be countered, then you're out of luck."

If there's a plan, it can be countered. Besides, my opponent already showed me his plans, and I've already countered them.

"You can't just say that Nezarr would know what to do."

I didn't. Not at all. I clearly and concisely said what would happen.

"Wrong. Margaritaville nullifies your time powers."

Explain how, then. Just because my opponent says it doesn't make it so. He's again stating something which I've already addressed, and not providing an un-rebutted rationale. Again, whether the planet is "Margaritaville" or not is completely independent from Manhattan's ability to cease time.

"The time is stopped at five o' clock. Time doesn't pass, but everybody thinks that it does. It's kind of like how Manhattan can still move after freezing time, but everybody in Margaritaville can still move."

This doesn't make any sense...at all. Absolutely none. If time is stopped *already,* then Doctor Manhattan's work is already done for him, which is an advantage for me. Simple as that.

And my opponent has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the science behind time stoppage -- let me explain:

To be in motion requires speed; speed is dependent on time; therefore, if time stops, so does speed, which means you cannot be in motion. Not only that, but light would be unable to be perceived and the flow of oxygen and sound would stop completely.

Just because the people in "Margaritaville" don't perceive time's stoppage doesn't mean it isn't stopped. If the time is stopped at 5 o'clock, then the effects of time stoppage will consequently occur, too, which means all my opponent's team are completely at the will of Doctor Manhattan, considering his powers make it so that he wouldn't be affected.

Manhattan's control over time isn't "nullified" at all -- rather, it's assisted. So yeah, thanks.

"Yugi can put the puzzle back together again if you shatter it. Plus, it's protected by dark magic."

You can't put something which was evaporated back together, because there wouldn't be any visible traces of it remaining. And so what if it's protected my dark magic? 1: I don't see how that counteracts Manhattan and the Surfer's ability to manipulate anything composed of matter; 2: nowhere in my opponent's chosen source does it say that the Puzzle is protected by "dark magic," which means he's applying something which is "non-canonical," which is in violation of the rules.

"Yugi is in the Shadow Realm. Apparently, you lack power over dimensions."

The Surfer is capable of going back and forth through any dimension he chooses. As is Manhattan. Not only that, but being in the "shadow realm" doesn't impact my team's powers; again, the area of battle is independent from my team's abilities. Yugi's power would be increased -- but he's still no match for my team, which is composed of the most powerful beings in the universe.

"The Triforce of Courage does grant certain protection, and the Triforce of Courage isn't matter."

As for the idea of the Triforce of Courage offering protection...I already addressed and debunked it; my opponent is yet again rehashing arguments. Using arguments which have already been negated probably isn't the best way to go...just sayin'.

Anyway, here's how it's debunked:

"So, the idea that the Triforce of Courage protects Link cannot be verified by the "canon" my opponent has chosen, which therefore means it's irrelevant, and that my opponent has broken a rule by applying a trait to Link which is "non-canonical."

...and I never claimed that the Triforce was matter, so my opponent is using a straw man argument. (1) I simply said Manhattan and the Surfer wouldn't have too tough a time breaking it up -- not once did I say they'd use their matter manipulation ability.

...besides, the Triforce *has* to be composed of energy or matter, which means it is, indeed, susceptible to Manhattan and the Surfer's ability to manipulate those two things.

"However, Link and Yugi are underage, so they don't drink."

Underage people drink. Besides, if a teammate did decide to attack them in a drunken rage, they'd have to defend themselves, whether they were drunk or not.

"This is what happens when unlimited powers are used."

Again, I've addressed the "unlimited powers" argument. My opponent really needs to get some material which hasn't been negated.

"However, Ganondorf can't be evaporated or controlled, and sending him into space wouldn't defeat him."

If Ganondorf is made of energy or matter, than yeah, he's susceptible to being evaporated.

And, well, my opponent says "sending him into space wouldn't defeat him," but he doesn't back himself up. It'd be kinda hard for him to be in battle when he's busy at the outer limits of the universe, no? Plus, my opponent never rebutted the strategy of sending him to a planet and then destroying it, so it stands.

"Bada-bing, bada-boom. My opponent has clearly broken the rules, and has broken the spirit of Ultimate Team War."

...no, I haven't. Not at all; I've already explained how:

Me: "you cant place a limit on something in which limits can't logically apply, which means it cant be with nor without limits. it's essentially like asking if there's a limit on one's ability to walk -- sure, you can get tired, but there isn't an energy bar which runs out, rendering an individual unable to walk. It's the same thing with Manhattan's ability to manipulate time, energy, and matter -- there isn't an energy bar, which means limits don't apply.

The mentioned abilities aren't really fields in which having a magnitude of power makes sense."

So no, I haven't broken the rules. My opponent is attempting to distort them in the middle of the debate to fit his argument. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, so it really is too bad for him.

"He has the unlimited power of immortality."

Him: "Team Member 2: Ganondorf Dragmire (The Legend of Zelda series)

Ganondorf (http://zelda.wikia.com......) is the wielder of the Triforce of Power (http://zelda.wikia.com......). "Presumably through possession of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf gain near invulnerability and astonishing magical powers, even allowing transformation into various beastly forms and, apparently, granting immortality." However, in this debate, he only has to be defeated, not killed."

Notice the following: ". . . apparently, granting immortality." However, in this debate, he only has to be defeated, not killed."

Not only does my opponent have an immortal member of his team -- but that's irrelevant, because "in this debate, he only has to be defeated, not killed."

My opponent can either stick to his distorted rule and have it used against him, or he can realize it's irrelevant. Either way, it's good for me.
Debate Round No. 4
mongeese

Pro

"Sure it is. I never used two sources to give Mewtwo any powers, equipment, etc. Mewtwo's powers were generally described, and then it was mentioned that he/she/it uses a piece of equipment specifically in the manga. I didn't use anything 'non-canonical.'"
In the anime, he had the ability to use people as puppets.
In the manga, he had the ability to use a spoon.
Pick one.

"But that's all irrelevant, because I've already addressed these points in my second round argument; my opponent has chosen not to put forth a retort to the argument *I* put forth; he's merely using the same argument I addressed, which means my argument stands."
Doctor Manhattan still doesn't have a limit... which makes him against the rules...

"Explain how, then. Just because my opponent says it doesn't make it so. He's again stating something which I've already addressed, and not providing an un-rebutted rationale. Again, whether the planet is 'Margaritaville' or not is completely independent from Manhattan's ability to cease time."
Time does not pass naturally in Margaritaville. It is always five-o'-clock. You think time is passing, but it isn't. The sun always stays in the same place, right on the horizon. The tide doesn't change. The clock is frozen. Such is the beauty of Margaritaville.

"This doesn't make any sense...at all. Absolutely none. If time is stopped *already,* then Doctor Manhattan's work is already done for him, which is an advantage for me. Simple as that."
Time is stopped, but it doesn't actually immobilize anybody. So, it's a different kind of stopped time than what Doctor Manhattan would wish for.

"And my opponent has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the science behind time stoppage -- let me explain:

"To be in motion requires speed; speed is dependent on time; therefore, if time stops, so does speed, which means you cannot be in motion. Not only that, but light would be unable to be perceived and the flow of oxygen and sound would stop completely.

"Just because the people in 'Margaritaville' don't perceive time's stoppage doesn't mean it isn't stopped. If the time is stopped at 5 o'clock, then the effects of time stoppage will consequently occur, too, which means all my opponent's team are completely at the will of Doctor Manhattan, considering his powers make it so that he wouldn't be affected."

Since when is Margaritaville a science?
Doctor Manhattan doesn't exactly follow the laws of science, either.
Margaritaville freezes our concept of time at five-o'-clock, nullifying any additional time powers. The margarita trumps all.

"You can't put something which was evaporated back together, because there wouldn't be any visible traces of it remaining. And so what if it's protected my dark magic? 1: I don't see how that counteracts Manhattan and the Surfer's ability to manipulate anything composed of matter; 2: nowhere in my opponent's chosen source does it say that the Puzzle is protected by 'dark magic,' which means he's applying something which is "non-canonical," which is in violation of the rules."
The Millennium Puzzle *is* dark magic.

Nowhere in your member descriptions is any ability to traverse through dimensions mentioned.

"As for the idea of the Triforce of Courage offering protection...I already addressed and debunked it; my opponent is yet again rehashing arguments. Using arguments which have already been negated probably isn't the best way to go...just sayin'."
What? It does...

"...besides, the Triforce *has* to be composed of energy or matter, which means it is, indeed, susceptible to Manhattan and the Surfer's ability to manipulate those two things."
This obviously means that they have unlimited ability.

"Underage people drink. Besides, if a teammate did decide to attack them in a drunken rage, they'd have to defend themselves, whether they were drunk or not."
Link and Yugi still don't drink.
They could run. Drunk people trip.

"Again, I've addressed the 'unlimited powers' argument. My opponent really needs to get some material which hasn't been negated."

"If Ganondorf is made of energy or matter, than yeah, he's susceptible to being evaporated."
The Triforce of Power holds his body together.

"And, well, my opponent says 'sending him into space wouldn't defeat him,' but he doesn't back himself up. It'd be kinda hard for him to be in battle when he's busy at the outer limits of the universe, no? Plus, my opponent never rebutted the strategy of sending him to a planet and then destroying it, so it stands."
If Ganondorf is in space, he's just floating out there. Neither side wins. Blowing up the planet still wouldn't destroy Ganondorf.

Manhattan obviously doesn't have a limit.

"So no, I haven't broken the rules. My opponent is attempting to distort them in the middle of the debate to fit his argument. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, so it really is too bad for him."

Manhattan still doesn't have a limit...

"My opponent can either stick to his distorted rule and have it used against him, or he can realize it's irrelevant. Either way, it's good for me."
Well, at least Ganondorf can be defeated.
Thing is, you've never asked how.
There's one thing that can defeat Ganondorf.

Finally, it really doesn't matter, because thanks to Jimmy Buffett, everybody on Team CON is enjoying multiple rounds of margaritas, and they don't have a care beyond that. Same with much of Team PRO. Such is Margaritaville.

Margaritaville neutralizes the fight.

Anyways, this leaves three options:

1. CON has broken Rule 2 multiple times, with an apparently unlimited Doctor Manhattan and Silver Surfer, and therefore loses the debate.

2. Both teams are wasting away in Margaritaville, so it's a draw.

3. Team PRO hides in the Shadow Realm, where Team CON can't get to. Therefore, it's a draw.

That leaves either a victory for PRO or a tie. It's your pick.

(Hint: Vote PRO)
patsox834

Con

<"In the anime, he had the ability to use people as puppets.
In the manga, he had the ability to use a spoon.">

Using a spoon isn't a power.

Besides, that in no way rebuts what I said: "I never used two sources to give Mewtwo any powers, equipment, etc. Mewtwo's powers were generally described, and then it was mentioned that he/she/it uses a piece of equipment specifically in the manga. I didn't use anything 'non-canonical.'"

<"Doctor Manhattan still doesn't have a limit... which makes him against the rules...">

Seriously, I've negated this. More rehashed arguments -- again, just because it's stated doesn't make it so. It's useless to just say so, and not support yourself with something that hasn't been negated.

Essentially, my opponent's claim is another, useless, rehashed argument.

<"It is always five-o'-clock. You think time is passing, but it isn't.">

Which is exactly why it helps my team. Time doesn't pass, which, as I showed, means that nobody can move, except Manhattan, which means he's capable of doing what he wants to whoever he wants, which means I will inevitably win. Stopping time before Manhattan does only plays into his and my hands; my opponent is doing our work for us.

<"The tide doesn't change. The clock is frozen.">

Yeah, and oxygen stops flowing, which means you'd have to move around to get some -- but moving isn't possible when time is stopped, so yeah, anything which requires oxygen would die. My opponent's own setting works against him.

<"Margaritaville freezes our concept of time at five-o'-clock, nullifying any additional time powers. The margarita trumps all.">

No, it doesn't "nullify" them -- it assists them. Freezing time at five o'clock is only doing my team's work for them, considering that Manhattan can still operate when time stops, while nobody on my opponent's team can.

<"The Millennium Puzzle *is* dark magic.">

Too bad my opponent's chosen canon doesn't say that, eh? Again, he's applying something to his team which is non-canonical, which is in violation of the rules.

<"Nowhere in your member descriptions is any ability to traverse through dimensions mentioned.">

A excerpt of the Surfer's description:

<"He can navigate space, hyperspace and dimensional barriers,">

So...yeah. My opponent is wrong.

<"This obviously means that they have unlimited ability.">

I mean, seriously, I've already explained twice why that isn't the case, and it's yet to be rebutted, which means it stands:

<"you cant place a limit on something in which limits can't logically apply, which means it cant be with nor without limits. it's essentially like asking if there's a limit on one's ability to walk -- sure, you can get tired, but there isn't an energy bar which runs out, rendering an individual unable to walk. It's the same thing with Manhattan's ability to manipulate time, energy, and matter -- there isn't an energy bar, which means limits don't apply.

The mentioned abilities aren't really fields in which having a magnitude of power makes sense.">

<"If Ganondorf is in space, he's just floating out there.">

Uh...yeah. Which is exactly why he's defeated -- to quote my opponent: <"However, in this debate, he only has to be defeated, not killed.">

<"Link and Yugi still don't drink.">

Considering that's a claim that can't in any way be substantiated, I'd think it would be better to not say it.

<"The Triforce of Power holds his body together.">

Again, the Triforce wouldn't be too difficult for the Surfer or Manhattan to break up. I've already explained that.

<"Well, at least Ganondorf can be defeated.">

I played the Zelda games. I'm well aware of that. He was defeated more than once.

Also, sending him to the outer limits of space would make him unable to participate in the battle, which therefore means he's defeated.

<"1. CON has broken Rule 2 multiple times, with an apparently unlimited Doctor Manhattan and Silver Surfer, and therefore loses the debate.">

I didn't break rule two at all; I've already shown how, and my opponent never rebutted it with an argument that wasn't already debunked, which means my argument stands.

<"2. Both teams are wasting away in Margaritaville, so it's a draw.">

Margaritaville is an advantage for *my* team, considering time is already stopped, which leaves everyone at Doctor Manhattan's mercy.

<"3. Team PRO hides in the Shadow Realm, where Team CON can't get to. Therefore, it's a draw.">

Team pro running away doesn't equate to a draw -- it means I've won. Team pro would be avoiding the battle on purpose, which is essentially a forfeit.

In closing, despite pro's assertion that I've broken rule two, I've shown how I haven't, and my argument wasn't rebutted with anything new; therefore, what I said stands. Not only that, by my strategies still stand, considering my opponent either hasn't offered a retort, or used negated arguments:

Me: "My opponent hasn't offered a logical retort to #3, #4, nor #5, either; Manhattan can still easily vanquish them to the outer limits of the universe, or some plant which would then be destroyed, and he can still evaporate them (as can the Surfer.) I've already shown that my opponent's team is still susceptible to mind control, so yeah.

<"Simply put, my team cannot be defeated by my opponent's team; my team's ability to know what my opponent's team will do before they do it makes it so that they can counter anything my opponent does.">

This point still remains, as well."

...

Also: "My opponent admits that Manhattan cannot be defeated, which means my team can't be defeated, which means my opponent can't win. He's essentially conceded the debate."

Actually, Manhattan can be defeated -- just not by anyone my opponent has chosen. He's unable to be defeated in this debate, which means I win.

I've fulfilled my side of the argument; I've shown how any why I win. My opponent hasn't fulfilled his side; his arguments were negated. I also shown that he broke rule five twice.

Lastly, my opponent has essentially assisted me with his argument regarding "Margaritaville." Essentially, there's no way for his team to defeat my team, which means my team win.

Thanks to mongeese for starting this debate, and thanks to all the readers. Considering the above points, I urge you all to vote con.

Also, since I can't vote, I'd like to ask my opponent not to vote, either.
Debate Round No. 5
60 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
"Either way, his power to manipulate and restructure energy as well as his ability to make his strength incalculable would be more than enough."
Obelisk can take care of that.

"Well, I'm starting to question your reading, considering I've shown how it doesn't."
So, you can apply logic to disprove Margaritaville, but Dr. Manhattan is allowed to go against logic?
Magic trumps logic.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Darn. I hate Rule 9.

You could have picked Chuck Norris and sourced his skillz from http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com...
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
"Actually, CON just pointed out that PRO's concept of time stoppage, where time stopped but people still moved about as if it hadn't, was completely ridiculous and contrived, and created only to try and weakly counter Dr. Manhattan's time stopping ability–which, as any rational person can see, it didn't do."

So Margaritaville can't stop time, but Dr. Manhattan can? That makes no sense. If Dr. Manhattan is 'outside of time', why can't Margaritaville be? Maybe I have misunderstood Dr. Manhattan's abilities.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
<"He still doesn't say how the Silver Surfer can destroy Team PRO in the Shadow Realm...">

...?

Kinda random, since I never claimed he could. Either way, his power to manipulate and restructure energy as well as his ability to make his strength incalculable would be more than enough.

<"And the margarita still trumps all...">

Well, I'm starting to question your reading, considering I've shown how it doesn't.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
He still doesn't say how the Silver Surfer can destroy Team PRO in the Shadow Realm...

And the margarita still trumps all...
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
Unfortunately no - I just read your rebuttal/have already read the Wiki page before the debate.
Posted by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
<"Dr. Manhattan can be defeated, just not by Pro's characters.">

Did you read/see Watchmen? I'm curious, because...well, anyone who reads/saw Watchmen is automatically at least a little awesome in my books.
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
I narrowly voted for pastox in Arguments/Agree After. Dr. Manhattan can be defeated, just not by Pro's characters. The Silver Surfer has been beaten too. Dr. Manhattan can't be beaten - Con wins.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
"7 votes within one hour? Either something fishy is going on or these ultimate battles are more popular than I thought. I hope it's the latter =D"
I also suspect the former.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
I broke rule 5?

How?

CON does not understand Margaritaville.
14 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by gurgleburgle 6 years ago
gurgleburgle
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Vote Placed by shadow835 6 years ago
shadow835
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Charlie_Danger 7 years ago
Charlie_Danger
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Vote Placed by patsox834 7 years ago
patsox834
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by untitled_entity 7 years ago
untitled_entity
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
mongeesepatsox834Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50