The Instigator
Finalfan
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Greg4586
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Monopoly and the Turd Sandwich!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/11/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 993 times Debate No: 77536
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (25)
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Finalfan

Con

A lot of you may be wondering.. "Is this the title of a Lunatic's short story?" You might even want me to post this in the forums or something! Nope, it is not a short story. Well maybe it is.. No, it's an analogy! The reason I posted this to debate is because I'm tired of being right! Not because I think you can prove me wrong but because being right only means you get to watch powerlessly as a simple perception poisons the world with it's Turd Sandwich!

I heard someone ask "well what the heck is the analogy already"
First I want to make you comfortable with this debate so I will give you a few examples

1. Religion (Theists Close your eyes)
Growing up I was forced to go to church! Right from the beginning it left a bad taste in my mouth. I was an outsider; listening to scripture and even hearing the Bible stories in Sunday School! Horrifying Wicked things! A whole world of bloody savages. A time when ignorance held dominance! Scared of their own shadows making up theories as they go! It was way to obvious it was no different than any other mythology! The problem is, Greek mythology was not fed to me by my father! Job, Abraham, The great flood, warranted slavery, rape, stoning, witch burning, The worst part is.. you have to get your butt out of bed. On your day off! Listen to a guy who claims his connection to the divine and never forgets to put out the collection plate. Do you see it yet? My entire life my entire family has been disappointed I could never take a bite! Put bread and mustard on it by saying I'm scum and need Jesus for some really convoluted arbitrary reason! Please tell me you see a turd sandwich too!

2. The Economy (global)
This isn't even funny anymore! We get it humans are greedy! So therefore Billions of people shall suffer! I know, you sent 10 cents a day to Mabogi, which I can appreciate! Its just ironic that you (me, everyone) is the reason little Mabogi needs the money in the first place! You are also the reason Poachers poach, human trafficking flourishes and any other parasitic disease thrives! Money!! Don't you wish it changed colors in the "wrong hands"! Too bad, that technology doesn't exist so lets just keep things how they are! You must be asking yourself "Where is the turd sandwich? I have an Iphone and can get groceries just fine" My life is great why would I want it to change?" Good for you! You greedy bast.. moving on. This turd sandwich has been dressed in so many fun and exciting things! People eat at the turd trough ALL DAY!! EVERY DAY!!! Yummy they say as they bury their heads in it marinating in its turdy juices! It's because your head is so contently nuzzled in its poopy bosom that you forget, oh yeah Horrifying things are happening at every moment of every day just because we agreed to install world wide Feces Corporations to make sure that your head doesn't move and you end up as some creepy dung battery like in the matrix. Only its to fuel.. You guessed it! The turd Sandwich! That's right! All this is for the sandwich! Not even the corporations control it!! Diarrhea! jk :)

3. Everything else: The Sickness
Health care, Education, Agriculture: The Heart, Brain. and body
Someone needs to explain why we are so self destructive that we only really care to nurture our genitals (Entertainment, war, and materialism)! I'm not saying we should not embrace our genitals! I just know that if you don't spend enough time and resources on the important life providing organs... HEY!!! Do not look me straight in the face and tell me our education and health are not at risk! My blood pressure is high enough without milly mouths blatantly spewing lies!

Ohh say can you see how being a dung battery that does not take care of its body would be sick? Have an illness? Possibly even hallucinate and have violent outbursts!? Explains a lot! The funny thing is. If you feed off the sandwich for your whole life! You cant even taste it! After you have been sick long enough! You can't remember what it's like to be healthy! Now..
Do you want to play a game? No its not like saw... well it actually is like saw.. crazy.. huh? Anyways! Do you want to play Monopoly? No? Now hold on it's not like the Monopoly you are familiar with! It still uses dice and a game board its part luck and part nothing you can do about it! Here are the rules!...actually I will tell you rules while we play *nasal passage chuckle*

1. As the banker I start the first roll! Wow since I'm the first one here it's mine! Now you roll! '7' sweet you get to pick a card! Lets see "It says invited to final fans birthday give final fan 100 as a birthday gift (I'm getting there hold your horses you will see where this is going.. hopefully. you are not a smart guy are you?) Huh you do not have any money! That's ok you can owe me ;) I roll! Bam!! I'm always this lucky! Buying up land is kind of what I do! So lets continue! You roll a '3" Go to jail! Just kidding you are just visiting your husband who got caught stealing from the bankers pantry! Had to feed his kids somehow my arse! My Roll! "Go to Jail!" Hmm this is embarrassing! What I'm going to do is pay a bunch of money and not do that mmkay. ahh ahh ahh remember "nothing you can do about it" Your rol..what do you mean you don't want to roll! WHIP HIM!! O.K. that's a good thimble! You rolled a "5' Hey you landed on a railroad! Want to buy it? The good news is while you have been busting your buns providing the sweet life for me and my kind I set aside a little bit to help you! It's not enough to buy the property or anything like that but at least you can feed your little rat babies! Look at them.. hmff filthy! EVER HEARD OF A BATH? Oh you have not? Your father needs to get better at this game Muahaha !! Huaha *Cough* Hey kid.. Why are you still here! (This turned into a short story... crap)

That was fun but still!! COME ON!!! That's what we look like! It's pretty silly! Yet we nurture it an enable it every day! Its only a perception but it creates our world! I'm not saying anyone needs to give up their passions! We are just wasting our time on the rat wheel so we can go home to our TURD SANDWICH!!! Thank you very much it was something I wanted to try! I'm sure I'm gonna get a lot of heat! I mean I did just call the entire human race a dung battery!
Greg4586

Pro

Let me start by thanking you for this debate.

1. Now let's get started. First off you start talking about religion and regard it as a myth and treat it as the equivalent to children's stories. I am agnostic and there is no religion I inherently believe in. What you should understand about religion though is it has impacted billions of people's lives and given them an amazing sense of community and has allowed them to live life believing that in the end they will spend the rest of eternity in endless bliss. Whether their belief of afterlife is true or not it allows them to live a higher quality life as they don't have to live in such an intense fear of death.

Religion has had many positive impacts in people's lives as well. Religion also has the potential to create a better society. I will use Buddhism as an example. Buddhism teaches people to not hate, but to love life and live their lives trying to find their true happiness. Buddhism also teaches people to not sink to the level of greed and lust and simply be happy with what they have. Not all religion is such a bad thing. Also studies have shown that religious people who attend community events for their religion are, generally, more happy. ( http://www.minnpost.com... ) The best explanation for this is the amazing sense of community many of them will get. So if we can manage religion and keep it to having a positive effect on society it really isn't a bad thing at all.

Think about it like salami on a sandwich. Some people love it. others are kind of just ok with it there but don't really like it or dislike it. Others hate it with a passion. If you like it, eat it but keep it to yourself. If you're in the middle leave it on or take it off it doesn't matter. If you hate it, just don't eat it.

Now onto the next topic. The economy

2. Let's start off with a little history lesson of where the economy came from. It all started where people living the nomadic lifestyle discovered if they put a plant in the ground and nurture it, it grows and you can eat it. This allowed people to create massive amounts of food and allow others to specialize in jobs and this started what is called the division of labor. This allowed us to create the medicine and technology we have today. Then this led to trading. Trading allowed exchange of goods, so people could life easier lives thanks to technology.

Then after time we drifted from this model, around our time during the global economy. You're right the economy is run by corporations driven by greed, while they control the population by giving them a comfortable life meanwhile blinding them to the impacts their lifestyle has on the less fortunate. You're right the powerful take what they want from the weak and get angry when they try to make a living with what they have instead of either curling up and dying, or becoming just like the people who took what they had. So what can we do? Become aware. Take power. You can make a movement to make it to the top and stop the corruption. The corporations won't care how much you complain about their greed and their actions. They care if you stop buying their products. They see you as dollar bills, not people. Boycott the harmful corporations and make your way to the top to replace the greed with generosity. It may be a long shot, but it's worth trying.

And now for the difficult part.
3. My interpretation is your asking why we only focus what we want and what we lust after instead of caring about what we truly need. This is not a behavior I will excuse or justify, instead I will do my best to put a stop to it.

You're right the justice system will punish those regardless of who it may affect, but let me ask you this. What would you rather have us do? Let criminals walk the streets to be repeat offenders.

Then as you put it the rich and powerful go to jail, and get off with only a slightly more lightweight wallet, but I already stated what we can do to change the greed inherent in our system.

Then we work and we work just to get a slight amount of what we earned for who we work for. As you put it, just enough to feed our families which traps us into a system of waged slavery. This is horrible, but it can change and it's up to us to do that. We can make it to the top and replace the corporations to change the system and create a better system.

For my final interpretation of your words this is about waged slavery how we just run in circles to only get the same thing every day, day after day. The same turd sandwich. So I have some solutions for you. You can 1. Make your way up to change the system and maybe if you're lucky you'll get more than just a turd sandwich. 2. You can learn to like the turd sandwich and learn to enjoy running through your hamster wheel, maybe it's not so bad after all? 3. Or you can do you're little part in the position you are in now. You can give the voice to those who have no voice. You can start working to change the system from the bottom up. 4. Or you can just do nothing about it and complain about how it is.

Your choice, I'd prefer one of the first 3.

Maybe the world we live in isn't so perfect. It's got a lot of problems, but instead of doing nothing about it we either make the most out of it, or we get up and do something about it to make a better world.
Debate Round No. 1
Finalfan

Con

Thank you Greg for accepting this debate! To be honest I was expecting this to attract trolls like flies on Mabogi (Obviously I use comedy to deal) I'm excited!! Round 2 Fight!!!

"it has impacted billions of people's lives and given them an amazing sense of community"-pro

Too bad they needed an Absolute Totalitarian Dictator to get there! Not to mention the friction caused by other "communities"! If it gives them comfort that's great! If you want to believe your mailman is an undercover FBI agent, you can do that to. The issue we face is that believing in that doesn't start wars, cause mass genocide, or warrant discrimination! Bottom line is their little club is not innocuous. Not even on a personal level. Ever had your father tell you there is a Demon inside of you? You may have seen this:
https://www.youtube.com...

"and has allowed them to live life believing that in the end they will spend the rest of eternity in endless bliss."- pro

Sounds great! I use to love believing in eternal life! I get the hype! Do you know what price we pay for this magic? A very high risk of eternal torture beyond our imagination! "I know what your thinking! I don't believe in hell. Well it's too bad it's still there and your still going- Every Christian ever
Come on children! What you know for sure is that you die! No need to spend your entire life waiting for the next! Maybe even try to keep this place looking good for years to come.. together as one "community" without the silliness! Can I get a Hallelujah!! Amen!!

" it allows them to live a higher quality life as they don't have to live in such an intense fear of death."

Maybe they just need to chill out a bit! Do you freak out about it? On the level where you are willing to stake your own sanity on it? I made my peace like 16 years ago! In fact. How the heck am I still alive? lol Either way I do know that Religion has a lot to do with fear of mortality! Its unhealthy to make up stories! The whole point of this is we all need to grow up and get off the tit! For the preservation of our health and safety!

"Buddhism teaches people to not hate, but to love life and live their lives trying to find their true happiness. Buddhism also teaches people to not sink to the level of greed and lust and simply be happy with what they have."

I wont argue with Buddha! Ha! I have no problem with moral teachings from any source! Its the magic and monsters that people need to forget they "know" exists! I wish that I could fly and shoot fireballs doesn't mean you need to give me money (Yes I think the church is a business)

"So if we can manage religion and keep it to having a positive effect on society it really isn't a bad thing at all."

Uggh Fine! Its not like anything is going to ever change anyways*storms out pouting*

.....Hey, yeah sorry about that, I got off a little bit on the low blood sugar high! Yeah lets keep an eye on them! If they are happy! Yay! Lets have a party for each and ever person that has been negatively affected buy these "happy" morons!(I told you i'm not polite) You may need to broaden your horizons! The Westborough Baptist church isn't the only blemish in Religious history!
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg

https://www.youtube.com... watch starting at 5:45 I love it!!

"Think about it like salami on a sandwich"

Whoah!! haha.. Whoah there buddy! You leave the analogies to me!! haha You even went with a sandwich Haha1!!
No I'm sorry! The salami is actually a turd

"You're right" "Your Right"

This is why I got excited!! Would you like to use this section to brainstorm a revolution? :)

"Become aware. Take power. You can make a movement to make it to the top and stop the corruption...."

Let the revolution begin!!! All of it!! Yes we are on the same page!! Are you a leader? I'm a prophet! Been looking for a leader! Never really saw it till recently! The one thing we have to do is voice our complaints! Along with everything else you said! Remember when people use to say "If you don't like it move?" They are the enemy! They do not want to help! They want the government to do it for them while complaining about the government! I call for global participation! No more looking out for your own unless you recognize your own is EVERYONE!! That will be our slogan!!

I am waiting to see what you come at me with! I have lifetimes more!! Hope you are having as much fun as me!!
Greg4586

Pro

Thank you for debating this with me and not being stuck within the boring traditional debate mindset. Now let's do this.

1. Let's start with the first topic, religion.

"Too bad they needed an Absolute Totalitarian Dictator to get there!"-Con

Now this I will concede. Most popular religions with the exception of a few such as Buddhism gained their popularity though absolutely horrible means. That however does not reflect that religion is bad. The people who spread their religion through force and violence, they were pretty terrible people. I will concede that, however the religion is an idea. How people take and distort that idea does not necessarily mean the idea is wrong or bad unless it started out bad before it was corrupted.

"Come on children! What you know for sure is that you die! No need to spend your entire life waiting for the next!"- Con

Let's take this into perspective here. These people live their lives in the belief that when they die they will live in eternal bliss. Is that true? Maybe, but I don't think so. Now here's the question people almost never ask, but the question is so critically important: Does it matter? No, it doesn't. Whether it's true or not people having this belief will positively impact their lives. You have conceded this and it is yet to remain disproved.

You then say that them believing this distracts them from real issues and it causes them to waste their time. Now think about this logically for a minute. If they were not spending their time worshiping their god, what would they be doing? Probably nothing too productive. So either way whether religion is there or not human nature to not do anything about a problem unless it's right in front of us still remains.

" Its unhealthy to make up stories!"-Con

It's human nature to make up stories. We make up stories and lie to ourselves for two main reasons. 1. To explain things. 2. To make things easier for us. ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk... ) If religion really the equivalent to "making up stories" what you need to do is prove that the religion itself is harmful. This does NOT include the actions of those who follow the religion if it does not reflect the religion.

Now back to what I was saying before we make up stories and lie to ourselves all the time, whether it be consciously or subconsciously. This can be either a bad or a good thing depending on the case. For example one can raise their self confidence by lying to themselves (I swear I'm a good dancer), on the other hand someone can harm themselves by denying a death or a tragedy. There is no reasonable explanation for us having this besides it being an evolutionary mechanism, so logically it has to have some benefit. Anyways my point is you have to prove that THIS instance of lying to ourselves is bad, because not every instance is.

My main point that is crucial to understand is that throughout history religion has been used as an excuse for terrible actions, but it has never been the whole reason, therefore you can not blame religion for the atrocities that have been made in it's name.

Religion can be horrible, or it can be amazing. That's up to us. If we give up on it and reject it as a whole those who refuse to reject religion will become tense with us and it will create an us vs them mentality. Instead of simply rejecting religion as a whole and branding its followers as idiots we can work with it to better society.

For a lot of your beliefs you bring up the radical religious believers, but for the most part in 1st world countries at least radical believers are falling more and more. A good amount of people who are believers don't really follow they're customs or rules but are kind of just like "Oh yeah, I think there's a god and if I believe in him when I die I will get rewarded". Is that really so harmful?

Now for the next section, you agreeing with me is kind of a problem because we need something to debate about. So I'm going to ask the question who's model of viewing the world and model of discourse is more beneficial and will help the most for solving the problem.

Let me open with a simple truth, people believe what they want to believe. There is nothing that we can do about that, because it is simply human nature. Now let's look at your model for debating and arguing. I think one word fairly sums it up. Pessimistic. With round one your world view simply states all of these problems and how horrible the world is. Your world view is not something people will want to accept, or rather want to believe. If they do not want to believe it, they will not. Another problem with your model for discourse is you give no way out of our issues. You do not give an outlet for change. If a large amount of people adopt your world view one of two things will happen. 1. There will be no outlet for change, consequently there will be no change. 2. People will disagree about how to create change destroying co-operation, which again results in no change. And that's all assuming people adopt your world view and believe it, which as I stated before people will only believe what they want to believe.

On the other hand my world view is something a lot more people will be a lot more willing to adopt. When they start looking at the world as I do they will start seeing problems, and more importantly they will start seeing solutions to the problems. That is what we need to create change. We need problem solvers, and that's exactly what my world view provides.

On a unrelated note I just realized people watching this debate will probably have no idea what we're talking about after watching the first round.

Now the part we've both been waiting for. Hell yeah, let's start a revolution. What we need is to educate the general populations about how the world really works. Then we can teach these people how they can do a better job than what is already being done now. What we need is a bottom up approach to ensure that the people who get to the top have a strong foundation and with that we can truly produce change.

Now lastly I'm going to be out of town for a good amount of time, so please try to respond as late as possible.
Debate Round No. 2
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
Greg4586

Pro

Greg4586 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
Exactly! How do you get everyone to change their perspective? Force? No that would end very badly.. Using the "stick" would only be hypocritical! We need to find out what the "carrot" is! Something that appeals to all. The truth of our collective well being and the responsibility we share.. maybe? Anyone up for the task of spreading that message? lol
Posted by Greg4586 2 years ago
Greg4586
But how exactly can we install moral principles into everyone. It would have to be just about literally everyone for it to work.
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
I actually know the answer: "What is a system that would make the world a better place."
Its simple. It would have to adhere to basic ethical principles like "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" That is why it is so frustrating! Its all about a change in perspective but we are all too darn stubborn lol
Posted by Greg4586 2 years ago
Greg4586
Yeah, I know that feeling. The feeling of being trapped where the only thing you could ever want in the world is to be out of the situation you are in. Sometimes it causes people to break down and give up, but other times it causes people to rise up.

If we could make people see the need to rebel and see the power they have with disobedience you could start a rebellion, but the most important question is what would be a system we are better off in. What is a system that would make the world a better place.
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
yeah me either lol
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
Sorry you got me brainstorming... I think the gun control idea can be used for money! The biggest problem with money is that you can earn it through diabolical means! Remember when I said too bad money doesn't change colors depending on how you earn it like if people who make money off human trafficking the money would turn blood red and the picture of the president would turn into a drugged up teenager tied up! Pretty graphic but I think you get my point lol
Posted by Greg4586 2 years ago
Greg4586
That's actually a great idea, too bad I have absolutely 0 understanding of coding and creating websites.
Posted by Greg4586 2 years ago
Greg4586
That's actually a great idea, too bad I have absolutely 0 understanding of coding and creating websites.
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
You know that desperate feeling of having a bully in your life? Or at least someone who feels like they have some kind of power over you? I think that is the essence of rebellion! People need to feel that desperation instead of contentment in their Iphones! That is why it seems to be an immovable object! With enough determination.. One man can get the immovable ball rolling! That inspires me :)
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
We should start a debate website dedicated to tag team debates! Then we will get a bunch of adult sites to sponsor us! lol Yeah my gun control idea is not refined but it sounds like its worth looking into!
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