The Instigator
John_Smith_2016
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Moon Landings Live TV Broadcasts impossible

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/3/2018 Category: Science
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 305 times Debate No: 107484
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
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John_Smith_2016

Pro

Hello everyone and greetings to whomever the opponent may be.

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Rules:
1- If you do not intend to put down an argument please do not accept the challenge.
It seems some disruptors just accept the challenge and forfeit the argument just to
kill it. And for some reason the debate system does not update properly when that
happens.
2- Stick to the topic and do not deviate from it into irrelevant issues.
3-be mature, no name-calling or personal attacks, focus on the subject not on the person.
4- please do some research before you accept the challenge to make sure that what I mentioned is not fabricated.
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Most people when arguing or debating whether the moon landings were real or fake speak about NASA photographs and their anomalies, or possible props in the scene, or hot spots of spot lights and so on.

However, I will approach this issue from a completely different angle.

Most people I ask why they think the moon landings were real would answer "because we saw them on TV". I mean we all saw them on TV even those of us who were born after the event. So the biggest driver for those people in believing that the landings were real is the fact that they saw it on TV (older people would say we saw it live on TV).

Here are a few things about the Moon landings broadcasts that some people may not know.

NASA claims that they broadcast live TV signals of color video from the moon to the earth but then had to film the color TV screen using a black & white 16mm film camera. And it was that black & white 16mm film footage that was broadcast on TV for all the viewers to see.

OK.... I argue that the moon landing broadcasts were fake and could have not been made from the moon due to the following:

- To transmit a Radio Frequency signal from one place to another, one would require:
1) A Transmitter (with Enough Power usually measured in Watts)
2) An Antenna (Size of which depends on multiple factors including the type of signal being broadcast and the distance one wishes to achieve)

among other peripheral equipment like microphones or video recording devices.

Basics of RF signal transmission tells us that if you want to transmit a signal across a few hundred feet, you require a relatively small amount of power. However, as the distance you wish to achieve increases, the power requirements increase dramatically due to what is known as signal loss (measured in DB).

There are public domain sites on the internet that provide the tools required to calculate both the signal loss in DB over a specified distance and also help in calculating the amount of power required to overcome that signal loss (Power is measured in Watts).

When you check the numbers required for transmitting a radio frequency from the moon to the earth (Over 250 thousand miles away), you end up with a an extremely large number for Watts required ( Billions of Watts) and that is for a simple radio frequency.

Once you try to calculate for a TV signal at 10GHz for that distance you end up with a power requirement that is impossibly large (Thousands of Billions of Watts).

Based on the above, I can clearly state that NASA did not receive any broadcast from the moon of the moon landings due to the absence of any power source capable of generating the amount of power required to make such a broadcast possible. Which in turn leads to the conclusion that the entire moon landing scenario was faked which is why we find all of the previously mentioned anomalies in the NASA photos and other issues that people usually discuss when arguing about this issue.

Thank you.
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2

Con

Thank you!

First let's define the moon.

"The Moon is thought to have formed about 4.51 billion years ago, not long after Earth. The most widely accepted explanation is that the Moon formed from the debris left over after a giant impact between Earth and a Mars-sized body called Theia.

The Moon is in synchronous rotation with Earth, always showing the same face, with its near side marked by dark volcanic maria that fill the spaces between the bright ancient crustal highlands and the prominent impact craters. As seen from the Earth, it is the second-brightest regularly visible celestial object in Earth's sky, after the Sun. Its surface is actually dark, although compared to the night sky it appears very bright, with a reflectance just slightly higher than that of worn asphalt. Its gravitational influence produces the ocean tides, body tides, and the slight lengthening of the day.

The Moon's average orbital distance at the present time is 384,402 km (238,856 mi),or 1.28 light-seconds. This is about thirty times the diameter of Earth, with its apparent size in the sky almost the same as that of the Sun (due to it being 400x farther and larger), resulting in the Moon covering the Sun nearly precisely in total solar eclipse. This matching of apparent visual size will not continue in the far future, because the Moon's distance from Earth is slowly increasing.

The Soviet Union's Luna program was the first to reach the Moon with unmanned spacecraft in 1959; the United States' NASA Apollo program achieved the only manned missions to date, beginning with the first manned lunar orbiting mission by Apollo 8 in 1968, and six manned lunar landings between 1969 and 1972, with the first being Apollo 11. These missions returned lunar rocks which have been used to develop a geological understanding of the Moon's origin, internal structure, and later history. Since the Apollo 17 mission in 1972, the Moon has been visited only by unmanned spacecraft.

Within human culture, both the Moon's natural prominence in the earthly sky, and its regular cycle of phases as seen from the Earth have provided cultural references and influences for human societies and cultures since time immemorial. Such cultural influences can be found in language, lunar based calendar systems, art, and mythology." [1]


I believe you haven't heard of NASA TV.

"NASA TV (originally NASA Select) is the television service of the United States government agency NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration). It is broadcast by satellite with a simulcast over the Internet. Local cable television providers across the United States and amateur television repeaters may carry NASA TV at their own discretion, as NASA-created content is considered a work of the U.S. government and is within the public domain. NASA TV is also available on a few broadcast television stations. The network was formally created in the early 1980s to provide NASA managers and engineers with real-time video of missions. NASA has operated a television service since the beginning of the space program for archival purposes, and in order to provide media outlets with video footage.

The network airs a large amount of educational programming, and provides live coverage of an array of manned missions, including the Space Shuttle and International Space Station (ISS), robotic missions, and international launches. The network completed its conversion from analog to digital transmission in late 2005 following the launch of STS-114, ending a period of dual analog and digital broadcasting, although some cable television systems may still have transmitted in analog prior to the U.S. digital television transition. The satellite link uses the DVB-S system for transmission." [2]

Sources:

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org...


Your argument is just you begging the question of the actual broadcasting of the moon by NASA TV.

I await your next argument, if you please.

Debate Round No. 1
John_Smith_2016

Pro

It seems most of the people here just like to play word games and are debating for the sake of debating and winning points.

The reason for a debate is to get to an acceptable logical result that most people can relate to and accept.

If you are just going to manipulate words and ideas and avoid the main subject then I believe I have already won if winning is what ts all about.

The subject is: NASA Live TV broadcast of Moon landings in July 1969

Instigator's argument: that the above broadcast was faked and made from earth and not the moon.

Reason: Sending a RF signal from the moon to the earth requires tremendous power and such a power source did not exist at the time.

Now please do some research of your own on how RF signals work and what requirements are there to be able to send them across great distances such as the distance from the Moon to the Earth.

If more word and Idea manipulations occur then perhaps this is not the proper venue to discus this subject nor any other subject for that matter. As it would be just a wast of time and effort.

For the benefit of others please check the science and ask a RF signals engineer if need be.
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2

Con

"Instigator's argument: that the above broadcast was faked and made from earth and not the moon.

Reason: Sending a RF signal from the moon to the earth requires tremendous power and such a power source did not exist at the time.

Now please do some research of your own on how RF signals work and what requirements are there to be able to send them across great distances such as the distance from the Moon to the Earth.

If more word and Idea manipulations occur then perhaps this is not the proper venue to discus this subject nor any other subject for that matter. As it would be just a wast of time and effort.

For the benefit of others please check the science and ask a RF signals engineer if need be."


Contender's Argument: Apollo 11 is 100% real!

It has not been faked, it is 100% real. You can't deny the legitimacy of Apollo 11 in 1969.

"Apollo 11 was the spaceflight that landed the first two humans on the Moon. Mission commander Neil Armstrong and pilot Buzz Aldrin, both American, landed the lunar module Eagle on July 20, 1969, at 20:18 UTC. Armstrong became the first to step onto the lunar surface six hours after landing on July 21 at 02:56:15 UTC; Aldrin joined him about 20 minutes later. They spent about two and a quarter hours together outside the spacecraft, and collected 47.5 pounds (21.5 kg) of lunar material to bring back to Earth. Michael Collins piloted the command module Columbia alone in lunar orbit while they were on the Moon's surface. Armstrong and Aldrin spent just under a day on the lunar surface before rejoining Columbia in lunar orbit.

s://upload.wikimedia.org...; alt="Apollo 11 first step.jpg" width="260" height="198" data-file-width="538" data-file-height="409" />

Apollo 11 was launched by a Saturn V rocket from Kennedy Space Center in Merritt Island, Florida, on July 16 at 9:32 am EDT (13:32 UTC) and was the fifth manned mission of NASA's Apollo program. The Apollo spacecraft had three parts: a command module (CM) with a cabin for the three astronauts, and the only part that landed back on Earth; a service module (SM), which supported the command module with propulsion, electrical power, oxygen, and water; and a lunar module (LM) that had two stages – a lower stage for landing on the Moon, and an upper stage to place the astronauts back into lunar orbit.

After being sent toward the Moon by the Saturn V's upper stage, the astronauts separated the spacecraft from it and traveled for three days until they entered into lunar orbit. Armstrong and Aldrin then moved into the lunar module Eagle and landed in the Sea of Tranquility. They stayed a total of about 21.5 hours on the lunar surface. The astronauts used Eagle's upper stage to lift off from the lunar surface and rejoin Collins in the command module. They jettisoned Eagle before they performed the maneuvers that blasted them out of lunar orbit on a trajectory back to Earth. They returned to Earth and landed in the Pacific Ocean on July 24.

The landing was broadcast on live TV to a worldwide audience. Armstrong stepped onto the lunar surface and described the event as "one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind." Apollo 11 effectively ended the Space Race and fulfilled a national goal proposed in 1961 by U.S. President John F. Kennedy: "before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth."

When Armstrong again looked outside, he saw that the computer's landing target was in a boulder-strewn area just north and east of a 300-meter (980 ft) diameter crater (later determined to be West crater, named for its location in the western part of the originally planned landing ellipse). Armstrong took semi-automatic controland, with Aldrin calling out altitude and velocity data, landed at 20:17:40 UTC on Sunday July 20 with about 25 seconds of fuel left.

Apollo 11 landed with less fuel than other missions, and the astronauts encountered a premature low fuel warning. This was later found to be the result of greater propellant 'slosh' than expected, uncovering a fuel sensor. On subsequent missions, extra anti-slosh baffles were added to the tanks to prevent this.

Throughout the descent, Aldrin had called out navigation data to Armstrong, who was busy piloting the LM. A few moments before the landing, a light informed Aldrin that at least one of the 67-inch (170 cm) probes hanging from Eagle's footpads had touched the surface, and he said: "Contact light!" Three seconds later, Eagle landed and Armstrong said "Shutdown." Aldrin immediately said "Okay, engine stop. ACA – out of detent." Armstrong acknowledged "Out of detent. Auto" and Aldrin continued "Mode control – both auto. Descent engine command override off. Engine arm – off. 413 is in."

Charles Duke, CAPCOM during the landing phase, acknowledged their landing by saying "We copy you down, Eagle."

Armstrong acknowledged Aldrin's completion of the post landing checklist with "Engine arm is off", before responding to Duke with the words, "Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed." Armstrong's unrehearsedchange of call sign from "Eagle" to "Tranquility Base" emphasized to listeners that landing was complete and successful. Duke mispronounced his reply as he expressed the relief at Mission Control: "Roger, Twan— Tranquility, we copy you on the ground. You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot."

Two and a half hours after landing, before preparations began for the EVA, Aldrin radioed to Earth:

This is the LM pilot. I'd like to take this opportunity to ask every person listening in, whoever and wherever they may be, to pause for a moment and contemplate the events of the past few hours and to give thanks in his or her own way.

He then took communion privately. At this time NASA was still fighting a lawsuit brought by atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair (who had objected to the Apollo 8 crew reading from the Book of Genesis) demanding that their astronauts refrain from broadcasting religious activities while in space. As such, Aldrin chose to refrain from directly mentioning taking communion on the Moon. Aldrin was an elder at the Webster Presbyterian Church, and his communion kit was prepared by the pastor of the church, the Rev. Dean Woodruff. Aldrin described communion on the Moon and the involvement of his church and pastor in the October 1970 edition of Guideposts magazine and in his book Return to Earth. Webster Presbyterian possesses the chalice used on the Moon and commemorates the event each year on the Sunday closest to July 20.

The schedule for the mission called for the astronauts to follow the landing with a five-hour sleep period as they had been awake since early morning. However, they elected to forgo the sleep period and begin the preparations for the EVA early, thinking that they would be unable to sleep." [1]

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org...




Debate Round No. 2
John_Smith_2016

Pro

Again your manipulating ideas and words... you think you gain anything by searching a keyword in Wikipedia and then copying and pasting the text here?

You know you may fool a debate system and pass as a great debater... but any human being who can read this will know you have not accomplished anything.

I already specified the subject of the debate... you go around it and discuss irrelevant issues,

We are not debating whether Apollo 11 was real or fake...

The subject of the debate is the the 1969 live TV broadcasts of the moon landing... I argue they were fake. I stated the reason as the absence of a power source powerful enough to make such a transmission possible across the distance from the moon to the earth.

Now go and convince yourself that you won this debate when you have avoided the subject of the debate all together and copied some paragraphs from Wikipedia. what a great accomplishment... Imagine the kind of person you will grow up to become!

good bye
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2

Con

"You know you may fool a debate system and pass as a great debater... but any human being who can read this will know you have not accomplished anything.

I already specified the subject of the debate... you go around it and discuss irrelevant issues,

We are not debating whether Apollo 11 was real or fake...

The subject of the debate is the the 1969 live TV broadcasts of the moon landing... I argue they were fake. I stated the reason as the absence of a power source powerful enough to make such a transmission possible across the distance from the moon to the earth.

Now go and convince yourself that you won this debate when you have avoided the subject of the debate all together and copied some paragraphs from Wikipedia. what a great accomplishment... Imagine the kind of person you will grow up to become!"


Rebuttal: You only asserted that Apollo 11 is fake, I already refuted your argument. I was not off topic, you were talking about Apollo 11, which is specifically what you were talking about. The end of your argument will cost you points (Lack of good conduct).

Here is my conclusion.

1. "Apollo 11 was the spaceflight that landed the first two humans on the Moon. Mission commander Neil Armstrong and pilot Buzz Aldrin, both American, landed the lunar module Eagle on July 20, 1969, at 20:18 UTC. Armstrong became the first to step onto the lunar surface six hours after landing on July 21 at 02:56:15 UTC; Aldrin joined him about 20 minutes later. They spent about two and a quarter hours together outside the spacecraft, and collected 47.5 pounds (21.5 kg) of lunar material to bring back to Earth. Michael Collins piloted the command moduleColumbia alone in lunar orbit while they were on the Moon's surface. Armstrong and Aldrin spent just under a day on the lunar surface before rejoining Columbia in lunar orbit.

Apollo 11 was launched by a Saturn V rocket from Kennedy Space Center in Merritt Island, Florida, on July 16 at 9:32 am EDT (13:32 UTC) and was the fifth manned mission of NASA's Apollo program. The Apollo spacecraft had three parts: a command module (CM) with a cabin for the three astronauts, and the only part that landed back on Earth; a service module (SM), which supported the command module with propulsion, electrical power, oxygen, and water; and a lunar module (LM) that had two stages – a lower stage for landing on the Moon, and an upper stage to place the astronauts back into lunar orbit.

After being sent toward the Moon by the Saturn V's upper stage, the astronauts separated the spacecraft from it and traveled for three days until they entered into lunar orbit. Armstrong and Aldrin then moved into the lunar module Eagle and landed in the Sea of Tranquility. They stayed a total of about 21.5 hours on the lunar surface. The astronauts used Eagle's upper stage to lift off from the lunar surface and rejoin Collins in the command module. They jettisoned Eagle before they performed the maneuvers that blasted them out of lunar orbit on a trajectory back to Earth. They returned to Earth and landed in the Pacific Ocean on July 24.

The landing was broadcast on live TV to a worldwide audience. Armstrong stepped onto the lunar surface and described the event as "one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind." Apollo 11 effectively ended the Space Race and fulfilled a national goal proposed in 1961 by U.S. President John F. Kennedy: "before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth."

When Armstrong again looked outside, he saw that the computer's landing target was in a boulder-strewn area just north and east of a 300-meter (980 ft) diameter crater (later determined to be West crater, named for its location in the western part of the originally planned landing ellipse). Armstrong took semi-automatic controland, with Aldrin calling out altitude and velocity data, landed at 20:17:40 UTC on Sunday July 20 with about 25 seconds of fuel left.

Apollo 11 landed with less fuel than other missions, and the astronauts encountered a premature low fuel warning. This was later found to be the result of greater propellant 'slosh' than expected, uncovering a fuel sensor. On subsequent missions, extra anti-slosh baffles were added to the tanks to prevent this.

Throughout the descent, Aldrin had called out navigation data to Armstrong, who was busy piloting the LM. A few moments before the landing, a light informed Aldrin that at least one of the 67-inch (170 cm) probes hanging from Eagle's footpads had touched the surface, and he said: "Contact light!" Three seconds later, Eagle landed and Armstrong said "Shutdown." Aldrin immediately said "Okay, engine stop. ACA – out of detent." Armstrong acknowledged "Out of detent. Auto" and Aldrin continued "Mode control – both auto. Descent engine command override off. Engine arm – off. 413 is in."

Charles Duke, CAPCOM during the landing phase, acknowledged their landing by saying "We copy you down, Eagle."

Armstrong acknowledged Aldrin's completion of the post landing checklist with "Engine arm is off", before responding to Duke with the words, "Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed." Armstrong's unrehearsedchange of call sign from "Eagle" to "Tranquility Base" emphasized to listeners that landing was complete and successful. Duke mispronounced his reply as he expressed the relief at Mission Control: "Roger, Twan— Tranquility, we copy you on the ground. You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot."

Two and a half hours after landing, before preparations began for the EVA, Aldrin radioed to Earth:

This is the LM pilot. I'd like to take this opportunity to ask every person listening in, whoever and wherever they may be, to pause for a moment and contemplate the events of the past few hours and to give thanks in his or her own way.

He then took communion privately. At this time NASA was still fighting a lawsuit brought by atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair (who had objected to the Apollo 8 crew reading from the Book of Genesis) demanding that their astronauts refrain from broadcasting religious activities while in space. As such, Aldrin chose to refrain from directly mentioning taking communion on the Moon. Aldrin was an elder at the Webster Presbyterian Church, and his communion kit was prepared by the pastor of the church, the Rev. Dean Woodruff. Aldrin described communion on the Moon and the involvement of his church and pastor in the October 1970 edition of Guideposts magazine and in his book Return to Earth. Webster Presbyterian possesses the chalice used on the Moon and commemorates the event each year on the Sunday closest to July 20.

The schedule for the mission called for the astronauts to follow the landing with a five-hour sleep period as they had been awake since early morning. However, they elected to forgo the sleep period and begin the preparations for the EVA early, thinking that they would be unable to sleep." [1]

2. Pro has burden of proof that Apollo 11 was fake and has been faked, but after I refuted his arguments, he didn't defend his claims, he only told me to "convince myself that I won the debate" instead of defending his claims.


Sources:

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org...


The choice is clear, vote Con!

Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Cherrypalm 3 months ago
Cherrypalm
What do you mean?
Posted by KostasT.1526 3 months ago
KostasT.1526
Can you cite a source on "signal loss"?
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 3 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
Shut up!

Quit repeating yourself.

Apollo 11 is what you were talking about, you said July 1969, right?

That is Apollo 11.
Posted by John_Smith_2016 3 months ago
John_Smith_2016
I already mentioned that you can easily check my claims very easily using public domain websites to calculate the power requirements for a transmission from the moon to the earth.

You however, did not even respond to the subject of the argument, instead you wasted valuable time and space filling it with paragraphs copied from Wikipedia as if that is hard for any 7 year old to do. You did not even bother to check Wikipedia regarding the subject of the debate, instead you copied definitions of "Moon", "Earth", and information posted on Apollo 11.

You did not bother to check how RF signal transmissions work and what kind of power they require.

If you want to delude yourself into believing you won... that is fine by me, but know that the argument still stands. I did not post formulas or numbers because I wanted to make it simple for everyone to grasp, however if you wish to get technical please let me know and I will shower you with all the formulas and numbers you require.
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 3 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
Vote Con!
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 3 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
@John_Smith_2016 Actually defend your claims and prove your arguments to be right, you failed to fill your burden of proof.
Posted by John_Smith_2016 3 months ago
John_Smith_2016
So sad to see you avoiding the subject of the debate as stated.

and by the way... Wikipedia is not meant to be used as such.

I hope you will find it within your self to one day confront yourself with the subject and substance of what i argued here and stop debating for he sake of debating. It adds nothing to your character.

You will be a much better person if you are honest with yourself before being honest with others.

Good luck
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 3 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
Wikipedia is the most reliable source for facts like Apollo 11.
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 3 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
That photo was supposed to appear. Sorry.
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 3 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
Okay.
No votes have been placed for this debate.