The Instigator
debatelala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
thett3
Con (against)
Winning
38 Points

More Gun control or less Gun control

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
thett3
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/21/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,639 times Debate No: 41018
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (7)

 

debatelala

Pro

There should be more gun control, because there are way to many crazy people in the world for there not to be. Less guns mean less crimes and murders! In other countries like Canada, they have stricter rules on having/carrying guns, and they have WAY LESS crimes and murders then the united states. Guns can be used for hunting, but is it reasonable to carry an AK-47? If we have stricter gun control then people who have a mental illness would not go around killing people. THE GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE THE PEOPLE KILL THE PEOPLE WITH THE GUNS!!!! I've never needed to use a gun in my entire life, to defend myself. There are other ways you can defend yourself besides guns. If someone comes on my property with a gun and starts shooting isn't there other weapons I could use besides a gun? I could use a knife to defend myself, why do we need the guns. In the Second Amendment it does say we have a right to bear arms, but this right should be limited. We cannot have people going around buy guns and killing people. When you buy a gun , you have a background check, but what about the people who get the guns illegally? What are we going to do about them, there are billions of people in the world how are we going to stop this person from buying illegally a gun. This is exactly why we should gun control. America has a very low level of gun control already, and if we have people buy guns with bad intentions they are putting others in harm. THE WORLD ALREADY HAS SO MANY PROBLEMS WITH GUNS ARE WE HONESTLY GOING TO INCREASE THE PROBLEM BY LETTING PEOPLE BUY MORE AND MORE GUNS? How many people have been killed by a gun in the past year alone, does it matter? NO IT DOESNT BECAUSE GUNS ARE GUNS AND THEY ARE USED TO HARM, THREATEN, AND KILL PEOPLE. They need limitations on fire arms.
thett3

Con

I'll refute my opponents arguments next. I've debated whether citizens should be permitted to own firearms before, so I'll present my case from that debate. If any of the citations are out of date, I'll give a new one.



Observe first:

1. The failed prohibition of drugs and alcohol tells us that when there is a demand for something that can easily be manufactured/grown, governments fail to keep those objects outside of their nations borders. From this it follows that since their is a vast demand for firearms, then gun control will generally fail.

2. Governments exist to protect rights. It's only a discussion of which rights exist and therefore need to be valued; in my case I will explain how the ownership of firearms is a right.

Case

I. NAP

The non aggression principle (NAP) posits that aggression is inherently immoral. Aggression can be defined as the initiaion of coercion with force, threats, or lies. Essentially you have the right to do any action you wish that does not harm others. The NAP is self affirming because to attempt to logically disprove it uses it. That is, if my opponent comes to my house and shoots me, he hasn't rationally defeated my argument, he's just committed aggression. To rationally disprove anything requires the use of the non-aggression principle, so it is irrational to deny it.

The ownership of firearms is not inherently aggressive and is therefore morally justifiable under the NAP.

In fact, the FBI reports[1] that from 2005-2009, there were 72,828 murders using firearms, and during the same period there were 56,910,060 background checks for firearms purchased[2]. This means that EVEN IF we assumed that these were the only firearms in the United States during this time period (not at all) barely one in one thousand (.0013%) of firearms were used in homicides. Taking into account the greater number of firearms and the greater number of aggressive crimes unnaccounted for, we can assume that the percentage of weapons used for aggression is roughly the same if not lower. One in a thousand is not inherent aggression, it's an exception to a rule. Since firearm ownership is not an act of aggression, then ownership of them is justifiable and the resolution is affirmed.

II. Tyranny

An armed population has the ability to overwhelm their government with sheer numbers, and overthrow a tyrannical state. The threat of spilled blood is often enough to keep a leader in line--if they mistreat their people they will be over thrown and shot. For this reason, widespread gun ownership is the best way to ensure a peaceful and just regime.

The historical truth of this is widely observed, as virtually all major genocides had a restriction of weapon ownership preceding them. Zelman and Stevens, in their book "Death by "Gun Control"" report that in the 20th century, 89.8 MILLION individuals were murdered by their governments after being forced to disarm[3]. They explain the significance of this to the gun control debate:

"When the gun prohibitionists quote a statistic about how many people are killed by firearms misuse, the discussion sometimes bogs down into whose crime stats to believe and how to count crimes vs. the defensive firearm uses. Death by Gun Control works on a level that nobody can dispute: documented world history."

Disarming the population to be exterminated allows for governments to take them to their deaths with less resistance, which not only keeps the government from losing more soldiers and resources fighting them, but also allows for them to conduct their genocide in secret to the international community. While an essential civil war and uprising of a major minority population is a relatively easy thing for other countries to spot, secretly impounding defensless people who go quietly is not. So a decrease in gun ownership not only increases the probabality of a genocide, but it makes the genocide easier to carry out as well. Further, a governments legitimacy in the eyes of it's people is lowered if it's engaging in warfare with a segment of the population, even if that segment is considered to be subhuman.

III. Foreign invasion

There is a famous proverb/quote often attributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of Japan, which is "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."[4]. An armed occupied population can make serious havoc for an invader, even without an organized military. The U.S. failure to conquer Vietnam, and the failure of the British to hold their colonies during the revolutionary war are many of the historical examples of what happens when an armed population faces down a hostile occupying power. It may be objected that ordinary citizens with their weapons could not hope to over come a modern war machine with Tanks, Planes, ect. but the point is that the population does not need to win a conventional war, just make the occupation so bloody and expensive that it's not worth it. In WWII, the Germans lost a significant portion of their power to the actions of partisans in the occupied countries; historically and logically an armed population helps to deter invasion.

IV. Self defense and crime

Criminals by definition do not follow laws. This means that criminals will commit aggression against law abiding citizens, even if all firearms were eradicated (observation one disproves this anyway), as the old adage goes: "outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have them". The negative correlation between Gun ownership and crime is pretty firmly established, so much so that John Lott was able to write a 236 page book on the matter.

To give a few examples of firearms and their effect on crime, John Stossel writes[5]:

"... the United Kingdom passed one of the strictest gun-control laws in the world, banning its citizens from owning almost all types of handguns. Britain seemed to get safer by the minute, as 162,000 newly-illegal firearms were forked over to British officials by law-abiding citizens.

But this didn't decrease the amount of gun-related crime in the U.K. In fact, gun-related crime has nearly doubled in the U.K. since the ban was enacted."

Further, a survey indicated[6] that an incredible 95% of buglars would not break and enter a house if there was a chance the owner had a firearm.

Statistics are not even needed since common sense and logic overwhelmingly indicate that guns (and death) are a deterrent to crime. The arguments can thus be summed up in syllogistic form as follows:

1. Criminals do not follow laws
2. Gun bans are laws
3. Therefore, criminals will still obtain guns

and

1. Most criminals fear death
2. Firearms can cause death
3. Therefore, the possession of firearms will deter criminals.

The widespread use of fire arms in self defense led to Dr. Gary Kleck estimating that firearms, or the threaat of firearms, are used by law abiding citizens in the United States every 13 seconds[7]. He sums up the self defense argument nicely:

"If gun possession among prospective victims tends to reduce violence, then reducing such gun possession is not, in and of itself, a social good. To disarm noncriminals in the hope that this might indirectly help reduce access to guns among criminals is a very high-stakes gamble, and the risks will not be reduced by pretending that crime victims rarely use guns for self-defense."

When seconds count, the police are minutes away. Citizens need to be able to defend themselves from injustice and evil, or else they will perish.

It is for these reasons that you must affirm.

Citations:


http://www.debate.org...;
Debate Round No. 1
debatelala

Pro

debatelala forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
debatelala

Pro

debatelala forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Extend, vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
debatelala

Pro

debatelala forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
debatelala

Pro

debatelala forfeited this round.
thett3

Con

Vote for Con
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by ironmaiden 3 years ago
ironmaiden
I think I know who won.
Posted by ironmaiden 3 years ago
ironmaiden
Damn! Alright, well good luck:)
Posted by thett3 3 years ago
thett3
Because I accepted it.

Pro, I made a mistake. This is where my citations can be found http://www.debate.org...
Posted by ironmaiden 3 years ago
ironmaiden
Ahhh! Thett!! You beat me to it!
Posted by ironmaiden 3 years ago
ironmaiden
Why is it not letting me accept the challenge?
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by ClassicRobert 3 years ago
ClassicRobert
debatelalathett3Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: It's quite obvious that Con won due to the lack of refutation by Pro, superior coherency, and sources. So here is my official RFD: OH YEAH AMERICA
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 3 years ago
Krazzy_Player
debatelalathett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Cheetah 3 years ago
Cheetah
debatelalathett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Even if pro didn't forfeited, he will be up against an argument that is tough to debunk. Well done, thett3.
Vote Placed by bsh1 3 years ago
bsh1
debatelalathett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Zaradi 3 years ago
Zaradi
debatelalathett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: I only voted to talk about this voting period. Half a year? Seriously? There's no debate on the planet...
Vote Placed by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
debatelalathett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con had more arguments and better arguments. Pro also FF. Clearly Con wins.
Vote Placed by cbcullen84 3 years ago
cbcullen84
debatelalathett3Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Good show Con, unfortunately I'm seeing that your well read argument was majorly wasted. This debate could have gone so much better with an actual opposition. Either way I'd like to see it again with a heavy contender.