The Instigator
phantom
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
xxeightydxx
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points

Mormanism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/2/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,243 times Debate No: 15769
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (21)
Votes (3)

 

phantom

Con

My opponent will be arguing that Mormonism is right and inspired by God.

I will be arguing that Mormonism is a false realigion.

Mormonism >>> http://en.wikipedia.org... <<<

Rules:

(1) No improper conduct. Insults, offensive laguage, rude remarks etc.......

(2) my opponent must Mormon.

(3) First round is for exceptance. Debating will start in round two.

I look forward to an enjoyable debate!

xxeightydxx

Pro

Despite the fact that proving any religion is "inspired by God" is impossible by way of logical argument, I will gladly take this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
phantom

Con

phantom forfeited this round.
xxeightydxx

Pro

Regretfully, my debate opponent's town was recently struck with the zombie virus. Because of this, my opponent was busy defending himself from the onslaught of the living dead and thus was unable to post his debate. I ask voters to ignore this round during the voting period and not hold it against my opponent because frankly, zombie attacks are impossible to schedule.

If my opponent has joined the ranks of the dead, I eagerly await his input into this debate next round.
Debate Round No. 2
phantom

Con

First I would like to apologize to my opponent and the viewers forfeiting the last round. But I still hope we can have a good debate.

If the founder of Mormonism (Joseph Smith) was an immoral man, why would God choose him?

Joseph Smith was an immoral false prophet, and violated one of Gods commands. He had at least 33 wives during his life.

In fact polygamy used to be okay for Mormons until it was latter outlawed.

Brigham Young (the second “prophet”) commanded Bishop John D. Lee to murder a wagon train of over one hundred helpless non Mormon immigrants. Twenty years later Lee was convicted and executed by the U.S. Government.

Young escaped punishment, and his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre has escaped the Mormon history books. spent most of his "ministry" dodging the law to continue the immoral practice of polygamy. At the time of his death in 1877, Young had seventeen wives and fifty-six children.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

The bible teaches of two different “after lives” Heaven and hell. Mormonism teaches of three Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial.

Mormonism also teaches that God the Father came down to earth and had sexual relations with Mary to produce Jesus.

But the Bible teaches that Mary was a virgin.

http://www.rapidnet.com...

“Mormon leaders have consistently taught that God the Father ("Adam-god") had sexual relations on earth with Mary (his own spirit daughter), to produce the physical body of Jesus. Early Mormon apostles also asserted that Christ was a polygamist, and that His wives included Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus) and Mary Magdalene.”

The bible teaches that their would be no more prophets after Jesus.

Revelation 16:6

http://mormonhaven.com...

Yet their have been many Mormon “prophets” such as Brigham Young, and Joseph Smith.

It does teach that that their will be false prophets however, and that is what Joseph Smith is.

Joseph Smith prophesied that David W. Patten would serve a mission in the spring, but he died before then.

Although he was uncertain, Joseph Smith predicted Christ would return in 1889. If Joseph Smith was a prophet he would have been right but he was obviously wrong.

Joseph Smith said that their were men living on the moon who dressed like Quakers and lived to be nearly 1,000 years old. Well unless NASA are hiding something I'm pretty sure that was pretty much a lie.

Mormonism teaches that God is one of countless gods, and that he used to be a man on another planet. The bible teaches that there is only one true God, and that all other gods are false.

Genesis 1:1 states that God existed 'in the beginning' before man was ever created. So if God existed before man ever existed how could God be a former man?

Mormonism teaches that we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness.

http://carm.org...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

The bible teaches many times that you get to heaven not by works alone but by faith.

http://carm.org...

http://carm.org...

Mormonism teaches that Jesus was a polygamist.

http://www.christian-faith.com...

When the bible speaks nothing about Him being married to anyone

Joseph Smith said the book of Mormons was the most correct book in the world, but you can find many wrong and contradictory things in it.

The Mormons believe that the American Indians were decedents of the Israelites.

But if they were Israelites why is their so much diversity in their languages and why were there no vestiges of Hebrew in any of their languages?

http://www.contenderministries.org...

The Book of Mormon also mention silk, but silk did not exist in the Americas at that time.

It also states that Nephi had a bow of steel. But Jews did no have steel at that time

No iron was smelted in the Americas until the Spanish colonization.

The book of Mormons says that Lehi found horses when he arrived in America. This is a lie as their were no horses in America until the sixteenth century when they were brought over from Spain.


Here’s a contradiction:

“D&C 130:3 says, “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” But in Alma 34:36, it says, “And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell.”

Joseph Smith predicted the American Civil war would poor out on all nations. Another false prophecy.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

Mormonism teaches that you have to be baptized to go to heaven. Anyone can be baptized, it does not give you assurance of heaven. It’s by faith that you go to heaven not by baptism.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

We do not even have the Gold Nephi Plates which were supposedly given to Joseph Smith. Why did Joseph Smith not provide the plates? He would have gained alot more followers more easily I am sure if their was some sort of proof.

I look forward to my opponents response.


xxeightydxx

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for his quick reply and congratulate him on surviving the zombie outbreak. Now to the topic at hand...

I am trying to prove that Mormonism is right and inspired by God. First I would like to make some assumptions here:
1) God is a good entity
2) Because God is good, he wants the best for all people on Earth

So for a religion (or anything really) to be "inspired by God", a religion must seek what God seeks; the best for all people on Earth.
If we assume my 2 assumptions are correct, what I can do is point the numerous charity organizations the Mormon church provides. Programs such as "Helping Hands"(1) or the "Bishop's Store House"(2) help out people who are in need of basic items. The Mormon church also encourages members to serve in the community and volunteer as much as possible (3).
More examples of Mormon service and welfare can be found in the video. Its a tad bit dramatic, but I feel it demonstrates the point.

I thoroughly believe that an organization that promotes service to the extent of the Mormon Church is easily "inspired by God".

Now to what my opponent has said.
My opponent is trying to prove Mormonism is a false religion. To do this, he judges the doctrines of Mormonism against the doctrines of another Christian religion. For example consider this phrase:

"The bible teaches of two different "after lives" Heaven and hell. Mormonism teaches of three Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial."

To assume the Mormon view of the after life is completely false, we must assume the bible is completely true, something that just cannot be assumed. We see this fallacious assumption over and over again throughout the argument.

"The bible teaches that their would be no more prophets after Jesus."

"Genesis 1:1 states that God existed 'in the beginning' before man was ever created. So if God existed before man ever existed how could God be a former man?"

"Mormonism teaches that we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. The bible teaches many times that you get to heaven not by works alone but by faith."
My point in pointing this out? You cannot prove the Mormon religion is false by comparing it to the bible. You have yet to prove the bible is a true book to begin with.

My opponent also attempts to discredit the Mormon church by pointing out the John D. Lee incident. After I would like to counter by saying many other religions institutions have had issues of incidents in the past (4). Just because one person of the Mormon faith was a terrible person you cannot assume that the rest of the organization is evil.

As a side note I would also like to point out that many of my opponents declaration of Mormon doctrine are flat out incorrect. I recommend my opponent get his information from more neutral sources, as the sources he as posted seem to be blatant anti-Mormon in nature. (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com... tends to take quotes out of context quite often.)

In closing I would just like to emphasize a my main point:
If God is good and wants the best for the people on Earth then the Mormon church is inspired by God.

Thanks for reading and I sincerely hope that my first attempt at a debate in this forum was not a headache to get through.

(1)http://lds.org...
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_storehouse
(3) http://lds.org...
(4) http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
phantom

Con

"To assume the Mormon view of the after life is completely false, we must assume the bible is completely true, something that just cannot be assumed."


Lets just take this into consideration. The bible was inspired by God and was written for our benefit. So that we might learn from it and believe. My opponent states that the book of Mormons was inspired by God. But, why would God “write” a book, then a few thousand years latter inspire another book to be written that completely conflicts with the first book?




Did not the bible say their would be false prophets to come? If you deny that fact then you deny the fact that the antichrist will come.

I thoroughly believe that an organization that promotes service to the extent of the Mormon Church is easily "inspired by God".

This is very limited evidence of the validity of Mormonism. I commend the Mormons for doing these good works. But many many other religions or cults do charity work for the poor; or missions work. So does that mean their religion is true? Of course not.

I remember going to the march for life and seeing many Catholics protesting against abortion. Not that that’s charity work but you get my point.

I could show you videos of Muslims, Catholics, Jehovah witnesses, or Protestants, doing charity and missions like you have shown. I’m sure you could even find Atheists.

There are many good and generous people out their. No matter what religion they believe in.

My opponent also attempts to discredit the Mormon church by pointing out the John D. Lee incident. After I would like to counter by saying many other religions institutions have had issues of incidents in the past (4). Just because one person of the Mormon faith was a terrible person you cannot assume that the rest of the organization is evil.



I’d like to first clarify that pro agrees that their was a massacre carried out by Mormons.

Now, I agree that religions do have some incidents in the past that were shameful. But my opponent does not deny the fact that Brigham Young was the one who ordered this attack. What reason do I say that? Well Brigham Young is a big figure in the Mormon religion. He was the so called “second prophet” after Joseph Smith died. So it’s not just some crazy glory hunter Mormon who carried out the massacre, but the very man who is one of the Mormons first followers, and second “prophet”. A man who was highly regarded by Joseph Smith and the other Mormons.

http://unicomm.byu.edu...


http://www.johndlee.net...

“About that time the Prophet Joseph Smith decided to run for the office of president of the United States, and with that in mind he sent out many missionaries. John D. Lee was one of a large group who left Nauvoo on May 28, 1844 for that purpose. A month later when word came that Joseph had been killed by a mob at Carthage Jail, Lee could not believe it. Surely, he argued, God would not permit such a thing to happen to his chosen servant. Only after fasting and prayer and a special manifestation could he accept the reality of the prophet's death. Broken in spirit and sick at heart, he started back to Nauvoo. He arrived after the incident wherein the people of the Church voted to sustain Brigham Young as their leader.”

This quote shows further evidence of Brigham Young’s high position.




About John D Lee:

John D Lee had a position as police guard over Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. So John D Lee must have been trusted and highly regarded by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to be put in such a position. My point? Just showing who the man was who lead the actuall attack was.

http://www.johndlee.net...


My opponent in no way has shown which of my statements are incorrect, and therefore I can in no way defend them.

In closing I would just like to emphasize a my main point:
If God is good and wants the best for the people on Earth then the Mormon church is inspired by God.

That is a very weak argument. You could apply that to any religion or cult at all that stems from Christianity. Why not just say the Jehovah witnesses is a true religion, because (according to that logic) if God wants what’s best for this world; then any religion that teaches about him must be true

It also brings up the subject of false prophets again. The bible states their will be false prophets (like the antichrist). And False prophets bring false religions.

And why would God allow Atheism to come about? Of course I agree that God is good, but that doesn’t mean he will prevent bad things from happening.

Pro has done nothing to refute any of these following statements that I made in the last round:

__________________

Joseph Smith was an immoral polygamist.

Joseph Smith prophesied that David W. Patten would serve a mission in the spring, but he died before then.

Although he was uncertain, Joseph Smith predicted Christ would return in 1889 If Joseph Smith was a prophet he would have been right but he was obviously wrong.

Joseph Smith said that their were men living on the moon who dressed like Quakers and lived to be nearly 1,000 years old. Well unless NASA are hiding something I'm pretty sure that was pretty much a lie.


contradiction

“D&C 130:3 says, “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.” But in Alma 34:36, it says “And this I know because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell.”

Joseph Smith predicted the American Civil war would poor out on all nations. Another false prophecy

We do not even have the Gold Nephi Plates which were supposedly given to Joseph Smith. Why did Joseph Smith not provide the plates? He would have gained alot more followers more easily I am sure if their was some sort of proof


The Book of Mormon also mention silk but silk did not exist in the Americas at that time

It also states that Nephi had a bow of steel. But Jews did no have steel at that time

No iron was smelted in the Americas until the Spanish colonization

The book of Mormons says that Lehi found horses when he arrived in America. This is a lie as their were no horses in America until the sixteenth century when they were brought over from Spain

­__________________

As my opponent has done little or nothing to refute these arguments I ask you to vote con.

One last thing before I close. I know my opponent is new to this website, but Wikipedia is not usually counted as a valid source to use

I know I used Wikipedia for my definition of Mormonism. But that was just a definition. It had nothing to do with backing up my arguments.

xxeightydxx

Pro

We'll skip the catchy intro theme song for now and get straight to the nitty gritty eh?

My opponent starts again saying this:

"This is very limited evidence of the validity of Mormonism. I commend the Mormons for doing these good works. But many many other religions or cults do charity work for the poor; or missions work. So does that mean their religion is true? Of course not."

However, proving whether the Mormonism religion is true is not the is not the purpose of the debate. My purpose is to prove that the Mormon religion has inspiration from God, however slight that may seem to Con. I would also like to point out that my opponent continues to quote the bible prove that Mormonism is a false religion, yet he has failed to present any legitimate evidence that the bible is the correct judge of religions.

My opponent also says this about my claim.

If God is good and wants the best for the people on Earth then the Mormon church is inspired by God.

"That is a very weak argument. You could apply that to any religion or cult at all that stems from Christianity. Why not just say the Jehovah witnesses is a true religion, because (according to that logic) if God wants what's best for this world; then any religion that teaches about him must be true"

This is kind of what I am trying to prove. Because a person cannot logically prove the validity of any scripture (whether it be bible or other holy works), any religion that actively spreads good to their neighbors (neighbors being defined very loosely) has to have some shred of divine inspiration through my first 2 assumptions in round 3. Is the Mormon church the end all be all correct church? Logically speaking, I cannot say. However, if we apply my two assumptions which my opponent has agreed on then it must be that the Mormon church has at least SOME inspiration from God.

Now about this John D Lee guy:
My opponent claim that this massacre was ordered by Brigham Young and carried out by John D Lee. However, Con's own source says that the massacre was carried out by "a band of three hundred angry Indians, infuriated over the Fancher train's alleged poisoning of water holes, was following them." (Fancher train being the victims of the massacre) John D Lee was accused of inciting this incident because he was the person in charge of Native American affairs and failed to contain the situation before it got out of control.

Now then, moving on to other arguments made by con
"Did not the bible say their would be false prophets to come?

Con has failed to prove the validity of the Bible in a logical debate, so quoting it accomplishes nothing.

Con also makes many arguments against Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. To this I reply: so what?
It would be impossible and an utter waste of time do debate the finer details of Mormonism in a logically debate. The point I am trying to make is that Mormonism has divine inspiration behind it, and that can be seen by the plethora of good works done my modern day Mormons. My con agreed that God is good ("Of course I agree that God is good"), by doing this he essentially agreed that the Mormon church has divine inspiration behind it.

In closing I would like to restate the basis for why Mormonism is divinely inspired
1) God is good
2) People and organizations who do good must be inspired by God
3) The Mormon Church is an organization who does good and therefore is inspired by God
My opponent has not refute this claim nor has be made a better one that holds up to logical examinations. I encourage voters to vote to whatever side they feel did better and would like to thank Con for a riveting and thought provoking argument. I would also like to take this moment to remind voters that assaults from the undead can happen at any time urged viewers to prepare for the inevitable.
Thanks
Debate Round No. 4
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Stephen_Hawkins 5 years ago
Stephen_Hawkins
(Continuing from vote) Spelling goes to eighty due to misspelt Mormonism in the title, and said "exceptance" was for the first round, not acceptance.
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
I'll refrain from voting on this debate. An atheist like myself is not about to judge some religions true and others false. I think all are "false" in some sense. Nonetheless, I'll make some comments because there was effort put into the debate.

I lot more should have been said about the standards for determining if a religion is "true." Con's arguments were mainly that he thought Mormons departed from Christianity. That's not compelling, because many religions depart from Christianity. Con's sources were obviously wildly biased against the LDS, but even so, why does that make the religion "false"? How do errant followers reflect upon the religion as a whole? The criteria should have been stated in the challenge.

Con had lots of S&G errors that detracted from his presentation.
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
Wut? When you excepted the debate you excepted the rules.
Posted by xxeightydxx 6 years ago
xxeightydxx
You can't logically do either side so why bother?
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
xxeightydxx the topic wasn't only on it being inspired by God.

This is what I posted in the first round.

"My opponent will be arguing that Mormonism is right and inspired by God.

I will be arguing that Mormonism is a false religion."
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
As I used up literally all my character in the last round, I'll just have to post this here.

As this is the last round I'd like to say thanks to my opponent for a fun and educational debate. And I look forward to seeing his last argument.
Posted by xxeightydxx 6 years ago
xxeightydxx
ha nice
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
Here some actual footage of it. I think their making a movie or something.
Posted by xxeightydxx 6 years ago
xxeightydxx
Yeah stuff happens. Glad to know you made it through alright though; world doesn't need another zombie.
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
"Regretfully, my debate opponent's town was recently struck with the zombie virus. Because of this, my opponent was busy defending himself from the onslaught of the living dead and thus was unable to post his debate. I ask voters to ignore this round during the voting period and not hold it against my opponent because frankly, zombie attacks are impossible to schedule."

Yes that's exactly what happened.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Stephen_Hawkins 5 years ago
Stephen_Hawkins
phantomxxeightydxxTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Now, I don't believein Mormonism, nor would I probably have been convinced (and would have voted Con) if the debate topic was no so brilliantly abused by eighty to mean whether it was inspired by God. He points out that what Pro and Con are arguing are non-ovelapping, and justifies it adequately. Now, his arguments require polishing...a lot of polishing, but it works well. Sources would go to Con beacuse they are used in all necessary moments, but his argument itself lets him down (continued)
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
phantomxxeightydxxTied
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Reasons for voting decision: "My purpose is to prove that the Mormon religion has inspiration from God, however slight that may seem to Con." - that indeed was the resolution, and Pro did make several valid points such as using the bible to defeat the morman religion is invalid without first arguing for the bible, second, attacks on an elected leader is hardly the case that the religion is not inspired by God - slight edge pro on arguments, and forfeit gives 2 to pro
Vote Placed by TUF 6 years ago
TUF
phantomxxeightydxxTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: Great debate guys!