The Instigator
tyler90az
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Jason_K
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith Bettered This World

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Jason_K
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,564 times Debate No: 14462
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (4)

 

tyler90az

Pro

I am arguing that Joseph Smith bettered this world and the people he came in contact with. I am not arguing rather he is a true prophet or not.
Jason_K

Con

Hello, my name is Jason and this is my very first debate on this website. I stumbled across it through many miscellaneous meanderings through Google. When I found this website, I thought, "What a brilliant idea", and thus I am here to begin debating. And now for the topic at hand.

Did the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith better this world?

Before I go into the con aspect of this debate, let's define some terms.

Mormon - politically correct definition would be Latter-Day Saints. Some say sect; others say cult, but nevertheless it is a branch of Christianity. Some things that would separate Mormonism from other sects of Christianity would be polygamy, The Book of Mormon, the temple in Utah, and the idea of who God is.

This world - All people everywhere.

Better - What a person considers to be beneficial.

I hope you agree with these terms. Now then, first off, I would like to address the issue of Joseph Smith's supernatural encounters. I hope you will agree that if Joseph Smith lied about his experiences, then what he did was not beneficial to the world. For if Joseph Smith did lie about what he saw, then Mormons all over the world would be delusional. Truth should be our goal and aim because nothing less can suffice.

Now of course it is impossible to directly verify Joseph Smith's experiences empirically because we were not with him, however, we can use our abilities of rational thought and common sense to determine if Joseph Smith was really telling the truth in The Book of Mormon.

Therefore, here are three reasons as to why Joseph Smith probably lied.

#1 - The Book of Mormon claims that the Native Americans are in fact descendants of the ancient Israelites. Recent DNA research has proved that the Native Americans known as "Lamanites" by the Mormons are not from Israel as Joseph Smith revealed. They are originally from Siberia/Mongolia, and much longer ago than a mere 2600 years. Furthermore, no DNA evidence supports or even hints that the Book of Mormon account of North American history is even remotely accurate.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...

#2 - The 'seer stone': http://en.wikipedia.org...(Latter_Day_Saints) Note several facts: The stone is only usable when one looks at it covered with a hat.
Seer stones were also used to find buried treasure.
James Strang also used a seer stone to translate ancient metal plates that he unearthed.

#3 - The infinite regress of God. Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a God and created this world. He was able to become a God because he followed the laws and ordinances of the God he served on another world. That God in turn was exalted by his God, who was exalted by his God, ad infinitum. This is an impossibility because an infinite regression of causes is impossible. In order for us to get to the present state of this God on this planet, there would have had to be an infinite number of Gods in the past. But, this cannot be because in order to get to the present, you would have to transverse an infinite number of Gods. But that is impossible since you cannot transverse an infinity -- if you could cross (transverse) an infinity of time, then it isn't infinite. Therefore, the Mormon system of infinite regressions of Gods is impossible.

Joseph Smith did not benefit our world because he did not encourage rational thought and an unrestricted search for truth. Rather he encouraged unquestioning faith in himself.
Your move. :)
Debate Round No. 1
tyler90az

Pro

Good luck Jason!

Better - Good done in the world using Christian morality.

BOM - Book of Mormon

I guess will debate about rather he is a true prophet.

DNA-
In 1995 there was a study done by Merriwether, which stated that there was a single migration. The study stated either from Mongolia and China. That is where anti-mormons get this idea from. When in reality a study was done much recently. In 2003 Dillehay says there is evidence for multiple migrations. Also like most places the Americas are a "melting pot" of DNA.

There have been genes that are in Jews also in Native Americans.

Roger Highfield 2000
The find has led to some speculation that ancient people crossed the Atlantic from the Old World, because evidence of the group has not so far been found in Asia, though [Schurr] stressed that not all central Asian groups had been analysed. Dr Schurr said: "Haplogroup X was brought to the New World by an ancient Eurasian population in a migratory event distinct from those bringing the other four lineages to the Americas."

The haplogroup X occurs most among Algonkian-speaking groups such as the Ojibwa [sometimes spelled Ojibwe], and has been detected in two pre-Colombian north American populations. Today, haplogroup X is found in between two and four per cent of European populations, and in the Middle East, he said, particularly in Israel.

Book of Mormon Proof:

Let's now look at some proofs of the Book of Mormon. There are multiple Hebrew Language structures within the Book of Mormon. In 1830s(Book of Mormon translation) no one new that in ancient time's people wrote on gold plates. There is something called "scriptorio" which means in ancient times they put the title in the back. The Book of Mormon originally had the title in the back.

There were gold plates discovered in 2003. Those gold plates look the same way as Joseph Smith and witnesses of the Book of Mormon described the BOM plates. Recently Chiasmus have been discovered in middle eastern poetry, also the Bible. It's a poetry form that goes A,B,C,C,B,A. That poetry form is also used in the BOM.

Mosiah 5:10-12:

(a) And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the NAME of Christ
(b) must be CALLED by some other name;
(c) therefore, he findeth himself on the LEFT HAND of God.
(d) And I would that ye should REMEMBER also, that this is the NAME
(e) that I said I should give unto you that never should be BLOTTED out,
(f) except it be through TRANSGRESSION;
(f') therefore, take heed that ye do not TRANSGRESS,
(e') that the name be not BLOTTED OUT of your hearts.
(d') I say unto you, I would that ye should REMEMBER to retain the NAME
(c') written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the LEFT HAND of God,
(b') but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be CALLED,
(a') and also, the NAME by which he shall call you.

Hebrew Structure link:
http://www.cometozarahemla.org...

May 26 Gold Plates Discovered:
http://news.bbc.co.uk...

Seer Stone:
Joseph Smith rarely used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim. Joseph Smith isn't the first prophet that God provided with the Urim and Thumim (Exodus 28:30; 1 Samuel 28:6; Ezra 2:63). When people say Joseph Smith used a seer stone it is all hearsay. To me it doesn't matter what he used, just that it was translated. See above for proofs of BOM.

When Joseph Smith used a seer stone it was just because it was more compact. If he did….. That is debatable, but I'm sure God could make a pea translate something. Joseph Smith did use a seer stone with his family to find buried treasure before he translated the BOM. In the 1800's it was common for people to believe in superstition, divination, magic, astrology, treasure digging etc. It is important to note he never did during or after the BOM translation.

"It is often difficult for us in the twentieth century to appreciate the world from the perspective of earlier generations.... All of us have a tendency to assume that our progenitors saw the world much as we see it today." Quinn(1987)

As far as James Strang, he started a branch off of the church after Joseph Smith died. He claimed he was a prophet. It makes sense he would emulate Joseph Smith by using a seer stone because he is claiming to be a prophet. He also emulated the brass plates. His church was, is and will always be small. The church is nowhere near the 13 million members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Nature of God:

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to as far as infinite regress of God. I ask you to please link for me. Maybe you are referring to an Adam God issue. I don't know, but link please.

Unlike mainstream Christianity we believe in the Godhead, not the Trinity. The Godhead consists of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. All three are distinct personages with one purpose.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 3: 16-17

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that welleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14: 10

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of cGod, and Jesus standing on the fright hand of God,

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Acts 7: 55-56

That is my rebuttal to why Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God and benefited this world immensely.
Jason_K

Con

You made several interesting points, first of which is the point concerning DNA. You said that some tribes of Native Americans have minuscule traces of European and Middle Eastern genetics. Allow me to ask, why are these traces so minuscule? The BOM makes it seem as if the Lamanites were a large nation with a distinct national identity. Certainly such a small trace of genetics would make what is spoken of in the BOM a longshot.

You mentioned something about scriptorio. The word sounds Latin in origin, not Hebrew. The ancient Roman word for a building where books or scrolls were stored was called a scriptorium. I would then assume that a scriptorio would be one who takes care of the scriptorium. Of course I'm only theorizing based on my minuscule studies of the Latin language, however, I do know with reasonable certainty that the reason why a book has its title in the 'back' is because books written in semetic languages are written right to left instead of left to right. Arabic is a good example of this. If one buys a copy of the Koran with both the original Arabic and the English translation side by side, then one must read the English translation backwards. Allow me to ask, was the original BOM written in this way?

You also mentioned the Hebrew poetry scheme. What you provided was interesting, however, I would need to see more examples of this happening before I take it as more than just a coincidence.

Now about the seer stone. I only want to know why would God use something tied to superstitions as the tool to reveal the BOM? I believe that the ancient prophets needed no such medium.

Concerning James Strang, what I would like to know is why I should or should not believe that he was telling the truth about his experiences?

And finally the nature of God, Mormon theology states that Elohim used to be a man on another planet. He was able to become divine by obeying the God he worshipped. This would then lead one to believe that the God Elohim worshipped was a man at one point also. This assumes an infinite regress of Gods, which is impossible. Sources are from several places which I found neatly packaged in this website - mormondoctrine.net/articles/God_became_God.htm
Debate Round No. 2
tyler90az

Pro

Although I will rebut my good opponent’s arguments I will now layout why Joseph Smith bettered this world. It is CON’s responsibility to disprove those points.

1. Joseph Smith improved 14 million people’s lives

2. Humanitarian aid world wide

3. His people are great citizens

---Rebuttals---

---DNA ---

The Book of Mormon ended shortly after Christ, thus leaving only the Lamanites somewhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon never claims that the Lamanites covered all the Americas. That is a lot of land which would take a massive population of people. It is significant that Halogroup x was found in two pre Columbian nations because that is all it takes. From the time the Book of Mormon ended to Columbus a lot could have happened. Undoubtedly more people arrived in the Americas. That is also why it says in my last argument the Americas DNA is a melting pot.

United States alone is 3,800,000 square miles

http://www.blurtit.com...

---Chiasmus---

Mosiah 3:18,19:
(Men will drink damnation to their souls unless)

(a) They HUMBLE themselves

(b) and become as little CHILDREN

(c) believing that salvation is in the ATONING BLOOD OF CHRIST;

(d) for the NATURAL MAN

(e) is an enemy of GOD

(f) and HAS BEEN from the fall of Adam

(f') and WILL BE forever and ever

(e') unless he yieldeth to the HOLY SPIRIT

(d') and putteth off the NATURAL MAN

(c') and becometh a saint through the ATONEMENT OF CHRIST

(b') and becometh as a CHILD

(a') submissive, meek and HUMBLE.

Mosiah 5:10-12:

(a) And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the NAME of Christ

(b) must be CALLED by some other name;

(c) therefore, he findeth himself on the LEFT HAND of God.

(d) And I would that ye should REMEMBER also, that this is the NAME

(e) that I said I should give unto you that never should be BLOTTED out,

(f) except it be through TRANSGRESSION;

(f') therefore, take heed that ye do not TRANSGRESS,

(e') that the name be not BLOTTED OUT of your hearts.

(d') I say unto you, I would that ye should REMEMBER to retain the NAME

(c') written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the LEFT HAND of God,

(b') but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be CALLED,

(a') and also, the NAME by which he shall call you.

It is your burden to prove chiasmus are a coincidence.

---Seer Stone---

You can also beg the question why would God use the Umimm and Thummim to translate things. God clearly gave the Umimm and Thummim to people in the Bible. God is God he can give somebody a paper clip and tell you to translate something. It is not what the person translates; it is what is translated.

---James Strang---

It is your choice to believe James Strang if you want. He has no merit in this argument. I proved he was an offshoot of the religion and was only with Joseph Smith for a short time.

---Infinite Regress---

---Source

First off your source is against Mormons, so that is really not true doctrine. That’s like saying if I made a website www.iamJason_k.com I would be you and certainly tell true stuff about you.

---Argument---

Con asks how we deal with problem of infinite regress. I can ask the same questions of other religions. How was God created? Nobody has an answer God is the same today, tomorrow and forever.

The argument comes from this couplet by Lorenzo Snow

[A] As man now is, God once was, and

[B] as God now is, man may become

LDS do hold that statement true. We know for sure B because it is in all of our scriptures. As far as A everybody is left to speculate because there is no solid doctrine. I am in the camp that God did not have a divine father, but much like Jesus lived a mortal life. Also like Jesus he was divine before, during and after his mortality.

---Closing---

I have negated all of CONS points and listed the original argument. Joseph Smiths church now has millions of members who love the church and are grateful for it. The church has donated millions of dollars to help the world. Also his people are great citizens of many different countries. Joseph Smith has clearly bettered the world.


Jason_K

Con

Okay, you made some good points here. In response to your comments concerning the humanitarian efforts of Mormonism. What you have said about improving people's lives and the people being great citizens, I must ask, can one's life be improved and can one be a great citizen to the same degree as a Mormon yet not be under the influence of Mormonism? If yes, then what is the point of being a Mormon?
I would argue that Mormonism does not improve the lives of people in regards to studies in the fields of philosophy. In fact, Mormonism has hindered millions of people from seeking anything of philosophical value outside of Mormonism. This is because of social pressures and the 'threat of Hell' pressure also. Feeding people bread to keep them alive is one thing. Giving them a chance to think for themselves without the consequences of having to forsake your family and eternal paradise is quite another.

Now, about this DNA - What you said seems to make sense, until I looked at this article.
http://www.pbs.org... It says that the gene was introduced between 36,000 and 23,000 years ago or between 17,000 and 12,000 years ago. This is far to early for the Israelites to have come to America, therefore this Haplogroup X is not of the ancient Hebrews spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Now, concering the poetic structure - it is obvious that this is no coincidence. Since I am the con in this debate, my best option seems to be this. Could it not be that Joseph Smith styled the Book of Mormon off the King James Bible, therefore the structure would naturally flow from Joseph Smith's writings?

The Umimm and the Thummim - it is quite possible that God used this device to translate the Book of Mormon for Joseph Smith, however my question was not directed toward this but rather the seer stone. It seems a bit odd that a stone tied to superstition would be used to translate the Word of God. It also seemed a bit odd that Joseph Smith had to hide his face while looking at the stone. Could it not be that he had some papers he was looking at in his hat instead?

I simply asked about James Strang because his case seems oddly similar to Joseph Smith's experience. I was wondering what would stop someone from believing James Strang? I mean didn't he have a vision and unearth some plates just like Joseph Smith? What makes his revelation less significant?

As for infinite regress - if man may become God, do they become an omnipotent spirit being capable of creating other human beings with the abilitiy to eventually become Gods? If this is so, then we have an infinite progress. As we know, one cannot travel across infinity, therefore an infinite progress is also impossible. There must be an end.

I have made several points, some relating to science, some relating to logic. I seem to have closed the DNA argument, unless you have a very good rebuttel. (which I'm sure you do) :)

Regards,
Jason
Debate Round No. 3
tyler90az

Pro

Joseph Smith Bettered This World

1. Joseph Smith improved 14 million people’s lives

2. Humanitarian aid world wide

3. His people are great citizens

---Threat of Hell Pressure---

There is no threat of hell for us. LDS believe in three glories of heaven and outer darkness. Outer Darkness (hell) is where the devils angels go; impossible for most to even go to. Everyone will go to some degree of heaven rather your LDS or not. That hole argument of were scared to go to hell is false.

Kingdoms of Glory

http://lds.org...

---DNA---

They are estimating when haplogroup X came over. They don’t know for sure, what they use is a mutation rate. The mutation rate they used is many times slower then what occurs in modern humans.

Using a realistic mutation rate could make the timeframe consistent with the Book of Mormon.

(Parsons et al., 1997; see also Ivanov et al., 1996; Denver, 2000; Howell et al., 1996; Pitman, 2003)

“The forces of genetic mixing are so powerful that everyone in the world has Jewish ancestors, though the amount of DNA from those ancestors in a given individual may be small. In fact, everyone on earth is by now a descendant of Abraham, Moses, and Aaron--if indeed they existed.” Steve Olson in the highly acclaimed book, Mapping Human History

---Seer Stone---

What I said last round still stands.

---James Strang---

Like I said last round you may believe what you want to believe. He is irrelevant in a debate about rather JOSEPH SMITH BETTERED THE WORLD>

---Infinite Regress---

You can go to the last round for my original response to infinite regress. As far as what happens when we become Gods I do not know. Nobody knows everything pertaining to Gods plan. God reveals his stuff little bit by little bit. This is irrelevant in a debate about rather JOSEPH SMITH BETTERED THIS WORLD.

“Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept” 2 Nephi 28:30

---Closing---

Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was the first prophet of the true restored church. Joseph Smith sealed his testimony with his own blood when he was murdered in 1844 at 39 years old.

http://josephsmith.net...

If we take the truth of the gospel out of it Joseph Smith has still bettered this world. There are now approximately 14 million members of his church who are happy. His church has donated 884.6 million worth of humanitarian aid since 1985. His people are great citizens and law abiding. Many great politicians are LDS. I HAVE PROVED THAT JOSEPH SMITH HAS BETTERED THIS WORLD.

LDS people:

http://www.mormon.org...

LDS politicians:

http://www.famousmormons.net...

LDS Statistics:

http://lds.org...


Jason_K

Con


My opponent has neglected to answer my question posed in the previous round. Here it is again "I must ask, can one's life be improved and can one be a great citizen to the same degree as a Mormon yet not be under the influence of Mormonism? If yes, then what is the point of being a Mormon?"

He has not provided an adequate answer, thus he has conceded the point, the point being that an individual can have an improved life and be a great citizen to the same degree as a Mormon yet not be a Mormon. When I say this, I am thinking of other religious groups such as other branches of Chritsianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I am also thinking of nonreligious alternatives such as, atheism, deism, and certain variants of agnosticism.

I then followed up my question with this statement: "I would argue that Mormonism does not improve the lives of people in regards to studies in the fields of philosophy. In fact, Mormonism has hindered millions of people from seeking anything of philosophical value outside of Mormonism. This is because of social pressures and the 'threat of Hell' pressure also. Feeding people bread to keep them alive is one thing. Giving them a chance to think for themselves without the consequences of having to forsake your family and eternal paradise is quite another."

My opponent did indeed provide an answer to the 'threat of Hell' issue, however, he has not provided me with an answer to the social pressures issue, thus conceding the point, and agreeing that social pressure is a detracter from the philosophical development of Mormons.

-DNA-
My opponent seems to be taking a presuppositional disposition toward the argument in this area now. He has conceded the point that the scientists are estimating the time period, however, because of my opponents presupposed stance on this issue, he has decided to suggest that the estimations are not accurate. I have presupposed that the science behind the DNA has indeed provided an accurate representation of the possible time periods for the Haplogroup X to arrive in America. This has created a stalemate. I respect my opponent for his religious beliefs in this area, and I hope he can respect me for my beliefs in this area.

-Seer Stone-
My opponent has once again taken a presuppositional stance in regards to the seer stone. He has concluded that my suspicion is misplaced, and my ideas regarding Joseph Smith looking at papers in his hat to be futile. There is nothing more that can be said about this topic. We both have our presuppositions. We must agree to disagree.

-James Strang-
Another presuppositional argument. My opponent has not taken into serious consideration the similarities between Joseph Smith and James Strang. If James Strang lied about his experiences then he has deceived millions of people. Joseph Smith was his inspiration. Thus Joseph Smith inspired James Strang to deceive millions of people into unquestioning faith.
I have already provided the reason as to why unquestioning faith is not beneficial.
-Infinite Regress-
My opponent has suggested that we become Gods, but the humans on the planets we will rule do not become Gods.
Allow me to quote from the Doctrine and Covenants 132:19 “And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant,…
…and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.”
Allow me to hone in on this part of the quotation: and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.” This is very clear. People will continue forever. However this is impossible because an infinite progress is impossible.

My opponent has also suggested that this is irrelevant in a debate about whether Joseph Smith bettered the world even though I have already demonstrated how this is of importance. Allow me to quote myself from earlier in the debate:
I hope you will agree that if Joseph Smith lied about his experiences, then what he did was not beneficial to the world. For if Joseph Smith did lie about what he saw, then Mormons all over the world would be delusional. Truth should be our goal and aim because nothing less can suffice.”

“Joseph Smith did not benefit our world because he did not encourage rational thought and an unrestricted search for truth. Rather he encouraged unquestioning faith in himself.”


“I would argue that Mormonism does not improve the lives of people in regards to studies in the fields of philosophy. In fact, Mormonism has hindered millions of people from seeking anything of philosophical value outside of Mormonism. This is because of social pressures and the 'threat of Hell' pressure also. Feeding people bread to keep them alive is one thing. Giving them a chance to think for themselves without the consequences of having to forsake your family and eternal paradise is quite another.”

I have made it quite obvious through this logical absolute that the Doctrine and Covenants are faulty. Thus Joseph Smith lied when he wrote this book. Thus Joseph Smith has not encouraged a rational and unrestricted search for truth. Thus Joseph Smith has not made this world a better place.
-Closing-
Quote:
“If we take the truth of the gospel out of it Joseph Smith has still bettered this world. There are now approximately 14 million members of his church who are happy. His church has donated 884.6 million worth of humanitarian aid since 1985. His people are great citizens and law abiding. Many great politicians are LDS.”
Now allow me to quote myself:"I must ask, can one's life be improved and can one be a great citizen to the same degree as a Mormon yet not be under the influence of Mormonism”
My opponent has not answered me therefore I will answer it for him. There are millions of people who are just as happy as Mormons. There are many charitable organizations that have donated millions of dollars worth of humanitarian aid far past 1985. There are millions of people who are great, law abiding citizens. Many great politicians are not LDS. My opponent has not proved anything in regards to these topics because one does not have to be a Mormon to be any of these things. However I have proved that Mormonism is very unhealthy in regards to philosophical inquiry and a rational search for truth. In order for the human race to stop fighting and killing we must have mutual respect for one other. In order for us to achieve this we must strive for the truth, the truth that we could be wrong, the truth that we are not all-knowing, and the truth that all of us deserve to be heard. But the only way we can achieve this goal is for there to be people who admit they could be wrong, for people to admit that they are not all knowing. In order for someone to be heard there must be someone to listen. I would encourage everyone to listen and appreciate other people’s opinions because ultimately that is all you have too, an opinion.
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Jason_K 6 years ago
Jason_K
Well debated Tyler.
Posted by tyler90az 6 years ago
tyler90az
Yea sorry about that Jason. Great debate so far!
Posted by Jason_K 6 years ago
Jason_K
My apologies. It seemed as though you were not going to respond, thus I assumed you had conceded.
Posted by tyler90az 6 years ago
tyler90az
You know it and I know it!
Posted by tyler90az 6 years ago
tyler90az
No man I am doing four debates at once. I apologize for how long it takes me. The only thing I have become wiser about is doing one debate at a time. It is clear from my argument that Joseph Smith bettered the world.
Posted by Jason_K 6 years ago
Jason_K
Well, it has been nearly two days, and I am afraid that Tyler has left the debate. All I can hope is that he has become a bit wiser from this dialogue.
Posted by tyler90az 6 years ago
tyler90az
A second read helped me realize you were talking about "infinite regress" imagine that. I will rebut it when you provide evidence for your claim.
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