The Instigator
Tim98
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
induced
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Mormonism is false

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 667 times Debate No: 31572
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

Tim98

Con

For this debate pro should have the burden of proof, and are allowed to post their arguments during the first round.
induced

Pro

according to mormonism, baptism is a major part of the gospel and it was widely practiced throughout the old testament times and Adam was the first to be baptized
http://www.lds.org...

however, in the Old Testament, there are absolutely no mentions or descriptions of baptisms. if baptism was so crucial to their gospel throughout the Old Testament times, they must have written a lot about it in their scriptures, but they didnt. it is clear that baptism was popularized around the time of jesus. this contradicts mormonism, so mormonism isnt true
Debate Round No. 1
Tim98

Con

The fact that there are no direct mentions of baptism in the old testament does not mean that it was not important during those times. Most of the time, the scriptures don't mention the names of the people who were baptized, or even if they were baptized. Also, the LDS church does not just believe in the old testament, they also believe in the new testament, the pearl of great price, the doctrine and covenants, and the book of mormon, which all mention baptism. the old tesament did not need to explain baptism because it would be explained in all of them.

Also, even though the old testament does not directly mention baptism, it does have a lot of mentions of events that symbolize baptism. In the story of Noahs ark, all of the sin is purged from the earth. Another example of when the old testament sybolizes baptism is the story of Moses when he parts the red sea. The israelites are saved by water, and the egyptians (who represent sin) were destroyed through water. (Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians 10: 1-2) The last example that I am going to give is the example of Naaman. He was healed from leaposy after obeying Elisha's instructions to dip seven times in the river Jordan. These are only a few examples of when the old testament mentions baptism symbolically. if you want more go to http://cgca.net...
or
http://studiesinscripture.com...
They both mention a lot of other examples of symbolic baptism in the old testament.
Even though baptism is not directly mentioned in the old testament, it is mentioned symbolically, and is also mentioned a lot in the other books that the Lds church believes in. His claim that, "it is clear that baptism was popularized around the time of jesus. this contradicts mormonism, so mormonism isnt true" is not true because the old testament did believe it was important, and sybolized it a lot because of this.
induced

Pro

so let me get this straight, you believe that people living over a thousand years after baptism was established as a key component to their religion, still didnt have a single scripture that mentioned baptism? and that even people living 6,000 years after adam and eve, still didnt have a complete set of baptism rules written down into scripture, until joseph smith wrote them? if god really did have a prophet in the old testament times, why wouldnt god have had his prophet write down the doctrine surrounding baptism? the type of god that mormons believe in is very strict and organized about things like baptism. mormons must keep official records and genealogy of everyone who they've baptized, including baptisms on behalf of the dead. there are many strict rules about baptism that must be followed, like full immersion, and who it is who can or cant baptize or be baptized, what priesthood you need to perform it and how you get that priesthood, at what age you can be baptized, the laying on of hands, and the words you speak when performing it, rules for baptizing the dead, etc. if one small thing is not done right, the baptism is void and doesnt count, and that person wont be able to advance in an afterlife until they are baptized properly. of all the detail the old testament goes into, god and his followers would have made sure that it was put in the scriptures as a priority.
"Also, even though the old testament does not directly mention baptism, it does have a lot
of mentions of events that symbolize baptism."
there arent a lot, there are a few, and that doesnt mean that baptism happened in the old testament. those scriptures were written as an analogy for for why baptism was created in their time.
"the old testament did believe it was important, and symbolized it a lot because of this."
so Naaman got leprosy so that he could symbolize baptism? and how does moses parting the sea, or noahs flood show any kind of deliberate effort to symbolize baptism? moses parted the sea to escape, not to be baptized. and they didnt even enter into the water, the ones who were saved because of noah and moses, were saved by avoiding the water, not by going into the water. and it is so easy to find analogies to baptism in a book. i could find things in harry potter that relate to water, or repentance, or sacrifice, or forgiveness, but that doesnt mean that the writer intended to symbolize baptism.
Debate Round No. 2
Tim98

Con

Tim98 forfeited this round.
induced

Pro

induced forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Tim98 3 years ago
Tim98
gies to baptism in a book. i could find things in harry potter that relate to water, or repentance, or sacrifice, or forgiveness, but that doesnt mean that the writer intended to symbolize baptism."
I'm sorry if I was not very clear on what i was saying before this. I am not saying that Naaman got leprosy so that he could symbolize baptism, I am saying that the way that Elisha healed him symbolizes baptism. In the case of Noah, I am not saying that he was saved by the water, I am saying that it is symbolic because the water cleansed the earth of evil. Also, Moses was saved because The israelites, who represent evil, were killed, therefore cleansing evil. Finally, to respond to what he said about being able to find analogies to baptism in harry potter, Harry potter is not a religious book, and there are a lot of written writing systems, which would make it easier for the writing system to survive, while in the case of the Old testament, there was not.
Posted by Tim98 3 years ago
Tim98
sorry, but my second round case could not be completely posted. here is the rest of it so that you can respond.
about things like baptism. mormons must keep official records and genealogy of everyone who they've baptized, including baptisms on behalf of the dead. there are many strict rules about baptism that must be followed, like full immersion, and who it is who can or cant baptize or be baptized, what priesthood you need to perform it and how you get that priesthood, at what age you can be baptized, the laying on of hands, and the words you speak when performing it, rules for baptizing the dead, etc. if one small thing is not done right, the baptism is void and doesnt count," He says that the LDS church is very strict, and would have mentioned it. A possible reason of why it was not mentioned is because there was not a system of written language until egyptian, or mesopotamian, so it would be hard to write it down. Also, the LDS religion is more correct in making it strict. If anyone could be baptized, it would not be a very good religion. It believes that people have to do their part while trying to get to the afterlife. Because it is "Strict" it is more likely to be true.
Me and pro disagreed when we were talking about symbolism, or analogies, about whether the number 16 would be classified as a lot or a few, and I would not like this debate to be about that, so I will decide to just say that there are at least 16 different times of when the old testament symbolizes baptism.
I would also like to respond to what he said about symbolism in the end. Pro said "so Naaman got leprosy so that he could symbolize baptism? and how does moses parting the sea, or noahs flood show any kind of deliberate effort to symbolize baptism? moses parted the sea to escape, not to be baptized. and they didnt even enter into the water, the ones who were saved because of noah and moses, were saved by avoiding the water, not by going into the water. and it is so easy to find analo
Posted by Tim98 3 years ago
Tim98
Will it be ok if i post a third round in the comments, so that we will each have had three rounds in which to post our cases?
Posted by Tim98 3 years ago
Tim98
Sorry, but there was a problem with my computer so my 2nd round was not posted. Heres what it would have been, also, sorry for not having it posted on time.

I would like to first start off by responding to your first question, "so let me get this straight, you believe that people living over a thousand years after baptism was established as a key component to their religion, still didnt have a single scripture that mentioned baptism? and that even people living 6,000 years after adam and eve, still didnt have a complete set of baptism rules written down into scripture, until joseph smith wrote them?" The answer to the first sentence is yes, and the answer to the second sentence is no. According to Evolution The First Four Billion Years, A book which was edited by Michael Ruse and Joseph Travis, humankind originated in around the year 200,000 B.C. The LDS, or Mormon, Church, and almost all other religions, believe that Moses was the person who the first five books of the Old Testament. Moses lived in Egypt, and, was alive at 30,000 B.C., at the earliest, which is a difference of 170,000 years. According to the scripture that you mentioned in your first round, Baptism was established at the time of Adam. So the LDS church does believe that it was not written down until the time of Moses.
The answer to your second question is no. As I mentioned before, the LDS church believes in the bible, The Pearl Of great price, The book of mormon, and the doctrine of covenants. The church believes that the pearl of great price, and the book of mormon had already existed, and were just translated by Joseph Smith. Also, we believe in the New testament which existed way before the time of joseph smith. The pearl of great price, the book of mormon, and the new testament all talk about baptism, and were written before the time of Joseph Smith.
Now i would like to respond to what Pro said about baptism. Pro said "the type of god that mormons believe in is very strict and organized
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