The Instigator
TropaBino
Pro (for)
The Contender
chrislee125
Con (against)

Mormonism teaches a different Christ than the one from the Bible.

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 356 times Debate No: 99250
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

TropaBino

Pro

Hello chrislee125, I'm challenging you to this debate, because I realise that you are a Mormon and I wanted to discuss some ideas with you, in a civilised manner. I hope you accept this debate.

I will present to you some verses why I believe Mormonism cannot be biblical. And any experience that we had we need to test it in the bible to see if it is true.
Every verse I present you must explain why it doesn't denounce your faith and Vice Versa.
Start your defence and arguments on the first round and on the fourth, conclude by saying what you took away from this debate.

I will start of by citing scripture.
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,"
&
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him."
&
Deuteronomy 4:39 "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other."

Thank you.
chrislee125

Con

Sure, I'll debate with ya. I'm always down to discuss religion. But just a word of warning, I'm kind of busy right now with school and stuff. So I apologize if I end up forfeiting a debate.

First of all, the title of this debate is kind of misleading. The title suggests that we will have Jesus Christ as our main topic. But my opponents round one argument suggests that we will be debating gospel doctrine according to the Latter Day Saints and the Bible. So I will ask my opponent to clarify what we will be debating about in his next round.

Second, Mormons (LDS) believe that "the Bible [is] to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;...". So if we read and believe in the Bible, then how would Mormonism be non-biblical. If the Bible contradicted LDS doctrine, then when Mormons read it, they would just be contradicting their own religion. So I'll have to ask my opponent to go into more detail on why Mormonism is not biblical.

Now, to continue with the scriptures my opponent has presented.

My opponent is using all three of these scriptures, I think, to promote that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are as one being. This is where we find the debate; because LDS doctirine declares that "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." as separate and distinct beings. But I will prove that these scripture do not contradict LDS doctrine and the Godhead.

Also, just for your information, I will be using the King James version Bible for this debate.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me," This scripture does not denounce my faith. Frankly, I don't know the reason why it would challenge may faith. Well anyways, this is Isaiah talking about Jesus (well, Jesus talking to Isaiah). This scripture says that there is no other besides Jesus Christ. That is true. I really don't know what else to say about that because i'm positive that me and my opponent both believe that.

The next two scriptures come to the same conclusion.

Now, I will present three scriptures that uphold the doctrine of my faith; which is the belief that our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

Matt. 3: 16-17: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we can see that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings because they are recognized separate from each other. Question: if God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost were one person, why do we see them as three separate distinct beings in these scriptures?

John 14: 16-18: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus Christ promises Himself as comforter and also promised that He will send another comforter, also known as the Holy Ghost. Question: If Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost were connected as one being, wouldn't they just send one comforter?

General biblical question: Jesus Christ taught obedience to the Father by being baptized, Praying, etc. If Jesus taught obedience so that the people would be obedient to their Father in heaven, wouldn't He want the people to be obedient to just him, because Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are one being? IDK it's kind of a long question.

Well, anyways, that's what I got. Thanks for the debate and for your time.

Sources:

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
lds.org
Debate Round No. 1
TropaBino

Pro

Thank you for accepting. I must be honest; I wasn"t very clear with my arguments. I will try to clear that out now. As you may know the bible is all about Jesus, and if you interpret the bible in a completely different way, then the Jesus is going to be different. For example, Jesus being a creation of God. Or the fact that God was a man before He was God"

I wasn"t using those scriptures for the purpose of promoting the Trinity.

In Mormonism God was not eternal and had a beginning.
Joseph Smith wrote: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! " I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" ." [1]
"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be."

This what I am referring to. The fact that Mormons teach that we will become Gods. Contradicts Isiah 43:10 "Ye"are"my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I"am"he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

So, those verses were used to show that the Mormon doctrine of God is false when compared to the Bible. According to the Bible, man cannot become God, there are no other gods and God was not a man. Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Furthermore, the doctrine of trinity states that God is one being in three persons. Jesus is the one God; the Father is the one God and the Holy Spirit is the one God. But, the Father isn"t Jesus nor is He the Holy Spirit, vice versa. But that"s not my point.

What I would like you to answer is if you agree that the Mormon doctrine of "godhood" is not compatible with the Bible"s doctrine of God. If you acknowledge that there are contradictions, then who are you going to stick with.

Next round I will move onto another subject.

I will leave you with one verse. 1Timothy 1:17 "Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory forever and ever! Amen."

[1] Smith, 321.
chrislee125

Con

Oh ok ok I see where you are getting at.

Well almost all sects of Christianity interpret the bible differently. So if I am ask my opponent, what religion are you? How does that religion affect your interpretation of the bible? For example, Latter Day Saints believe that The Book Of Mormon was given to us to help clarify the teachings of the bible. It's helps us interpret some of the controversial doctrine found in the Bible. So that's how Mormons interpret the bible.

So I don't know where you got the Joseph Smith quote, even though your source was "Smith, 321.". So I looked up the quote and the one I found is pretty different from the one you posted. The Joseph Smith quote (as found on lds.org) goes as follows, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! " It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did." The quote my opponent posted seemed kind of to suggest that Joseph Smith created his own doctrine. IDK.

Also, the quote "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be." was a quote by Lorenzo Snow, not Joseph Smith.

Yes, Mormon do teach simply that if we follow God's commandments, we can potentiallly become like our Heavenly Father. I do believe that this doctrine of our heavenly potential is compatible with the bible.

Several biblical passages intimate that humans can become like God. The likeness of humans to God is emphasized in the first chapter of Genesis: "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. " So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," God said they had "become as one of us," suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway. Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that "thou, being a man, makest thyself God," He responded, echoing Psalms, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become "perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior"s "exceeding great and precious promises" that we might become "partakers of the divine nature." The Apostle Paul taught that we are "the offspring of God" and emphasized that as such "we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ." The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that "to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

So as you can see, LDS doctrine and Bible doctrine do not contradict each other, but actually come to the same conclusion that we can reach the potential of becoming like our Heavenly Father. The Book of Mormon and modern day prophets have also confirmed this same doctrine.

Thank you for your time.

Sources:

https://www.lds.org...

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938, pp. 345"46.
Debate Round No. 2
TropaBino

Pro

There are many "sects" or denominations of Christianity, however all are Christian. All have the same fundamental doctrine. No one denomination says that it is completely right and all the other ones are wrong. Jehovah"s Witnesses are not Christians because they, changed the bible and say that Jesus is not God. Neither, in my opinion, is Mormonism. Because, they teach that there are many gods and have other books that you guys put at the same level as the Bible. Mormonism says that they are the only true church ("I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong"their creeds were an abomination in [God"s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith"History"1:19.)"Which would mean that the church until Mormonism existed was fake. Which would mean that for most of church history there was no real church on Earth. This cannot be true because, Matthew 16:18 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Now to your scriptures.
"Let"s make man in our image (")" He doesn"t say let"s make man equal to us. He said in our image, similar to us.

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" If you take "Behold, the man is become as one of us" out of the verse, it would look like you are right. But, if you read the whole verse and the context, that would not make sense. Why would God say that man has now become one of us, at the moment they sinned? In the that verse it states in which way man "become as one of us". The way is "to know good and evil". Simple. We now know good from evil, just like God. Simple as that. Why would sinning make man more like God?

Psalm 82. "Those described here as"gods"are evidently the judges and magistrates of Israel. See"Joh 10:34. They were intended to be the mouthpiece and representatives of God; but instead, they thought only of their own interests and sought personal aggrandizement. But the psalmist beheld what was veiled from ordinary view-God standing in the midst of His people, judging them Himself and judging their judges." F.B. Meyer.

New Testament.

John 10:34 "This quotation from"Psa 82:6"was originally addressed to magistrates, and our Lord argued that if unjust judges were described by this phrase, because they exercised the divine prerogative of judgment, surely His opponents had no right to stone Him, when, as the Sent of God and sanctioned by God"s witness in His works, He spoke of Himself as the Father"s equal and fellow." F.B. Meyer

"Partakers of his divine nature" means we will not sin we will never die. But, in no way is it possible for us be God. He is sovereign.

I understand that if an unbeliever is presented just these verses, he will think that we will become gods. The same way Jehovah"s Witnesses have their verses. But if you give an unbeliever the whole Bible he will never arrive to those conclusions.
You believe what you believe because you were taught that. You did not get those conclusions from the Bible. You definitely didn"t get them from God.

I ask that the same way I responded to your verses I will ask you to respond to these verses:
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,"
&
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him."
&
Deuteronomy 4:39 "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the Earth below; there is no other."

How can Mormon doctrine not be in conflict with these verses? You say there are many gods, this verse says there is only one God in heaven on earth and everywhere. I bet these verses were written because God knew there would be Mormonism. Listen, "apart from me there is no God", "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other."

I do this out of love, I don"t want to hurt you. I just believe that you are not following the God of the Bible. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. No one goes to the Father except through Him. If you don"t believe in the real Jesus, then you are not saved. The same way Jehovah"s witnesses and Muslims have their fake Jesus.

Think about it.
chrislee125

Con

Ok, so since you didn't answer the question, what sect of Christianity are you? How does this sect interpret the bible? This would be very helpful to know because it gives a better background for your platform.

All Christians don't have the same fundamental doctrine. All sects of Christianity have different views on doctrine... that is kind of why they are separate churches. Every sect also claims that they are the true church. Just simply look up "what is the true church" and you will find a wide variety of Christian churches that claim they are the true church.

Also, you can't say someone is Christian because you disagree with their doctrine. Although I disagree with the doctrine of the Jehovah's witnesses, I still view and respect them as Christians. In fact, Merriam-Webster dictionary states that a Christian church is defined as "one [church] who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ." So if you don't agree with one's view of Christian doctrine, you can't say that they are not Christian. You can't pick and choose who is Christian and who is not. If that was the case (which it is) then there would only be one sect of Christianity: yours.

Mormon's (LDS) don't teach that there are multiple Gods, they teach that if we follow Christ's commandments, we can have the potential to become similar to our Father in Heaven. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the "fullness of joy"" He desires for us.

Also, having the Book of Mormon as another testament of Jesus Christ does not make us non-Christian, It makes you Anti-Mormon.

My opponent's concern with JSH 1:19 deals with the Apostasy of the Early Christian Church. This is an entirely different topic and would seriously take me forever to explain in the middle of this debate. So if my opponent wants to debate about the Apostasy, then I would suggest that he should start another debate.

Now, to my scriptures that my opponent attacked... in a weird way.

Let's make man in our image: I never said anything that linked this scripture to our equality to God. My opponent seems to just answer this scripture by repeating what I already said; which is "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ". So I'll ask my opponent to attack this scripture another time, but without repeating what I said.

Genesis 3:22. I said: "After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," God said they had "become as one of us," suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway." and my opponent repeats this same conclusion with Genesis 3:22; which states, "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" (I do not know what version of the Bible that he used). The repeated conclusion is this: after Adam gained that knowledge and consequences of good and evil, he had "become as one of us,". In mortality, it is essential to know good from evil to progress to an immortal state.

It seems for Psalm 82 and John 10:34, I am debating F.B. Meyer. I would like to debate my opponent instead. I'll ask my opponent to display some of his own ideas into these scriptures next round.

"Partakers of his divine nature": exactly. As immortal beings, we will be free from sin. How cool is that?

Fallacy:
Ad hominem arguments: My opponent seems to be attack me and my religion more than the topic at hand. He states, "You believe what you believe because you were taught that. You did not get those conclusions from the Bible. You definitely didn"t get them from God." Instead of attacking my arguments, my opponent is attacking me as a so called "unbeliever". Like seriously? I believe what I believe because, yes, I was taught that. But I have also studied it. I've attended my church meetings. I have read and prayed about my scripture reading. I have felt the Holy Ghost confirm to me that what I believe is true. I know it, and I know that God knows it. What right does my opponent have to judge me as an unbeliever? This is fallacy, I would like to ask the voters to please not let my opponent slip away from this crime.

Also, I have read the whole bible, so that must make me a believer?

Straw-man fallacy: My opponent is under this fallacy because he states that Mormons (and Jehovah's witnesses) are ignorant "unbelievers". This is not only a false claim, but just a claim without any evidence to prove it. He has even falsely accused me of many beliefs, such as worshiping multiple Gods (untrue). Because of this, he falls under the straw-man fallacy.

My opponents scriptures:
I have already responded to my opponents scriptures. Please check my round 1 as a reference.

This doesn't conflict with LDS doctrine. I only worship one God (Art. of faith 1:1). I do not say there are many Gods, but that we have the potential to become Gods after the last days. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. If these scripture were anti-Mormon, then why would I accept and agree with them? My opponent is very confused with this argument. There is no other Heavenly Father.

Conclusion:
I am following the God of the bible and His teachings. I do accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior and through his atonement, I have found a great love and relationship with Him. Please stop trying to belittle and accuse me of following a false Christ. I love Jesus Christ, and I cannot deny that He is real.

Think about it.

Sources:

lds.org

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by TimWagnes 11 months ago
TimWagnes
Because the bible makes sense, stating that the reason animals exist is because a flood destroyed the land, and all the animals in the world fit and didn't sink a crudely made wooden boat. I don't denounce either but this proves both have interesting points. Also, don't hate on someone's religion.
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