The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
persianimmortal
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Mormons and JW are polytheist

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/23/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 342 times Debate No: 87121
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

CapAhab

Pro

pol"y"the"ism
the belief in or worship of more than one god.

god
a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

mon"o"the"ism
the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

Round 1 acceptance only (no arguments)
Round 2 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 3 - Rebuttals Only
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

Serious debate only.
persianimmortal

Con

I accept my dear friend CapAhab's debate. I will be using the Book of Mormon and the Mormon texts as well as the Holy Bible to defend Monotheistic tenets of the JW's and the Mormons.

Best of luck to CapAhab, and off we go!
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

I would first like to thank my opponent.

https://www.jw.org...
My opponent may refer to this for the JW's Bible.

The KJV will be use for the Mormons, and my opponent may use other Mormons' "holy" books.

Let's start with J Witness.
In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god. John 1:1
The word, Jesus as a god.

Also, as per John 20:28, Thomas said:
"In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!""

Note that the word god is in hebrew Elohim and in greek theos and both can be translated as "G-d", "god", "angels", "gods" for Elohim,

https://www.blueletterbible.org...
https://www.blueletterbible.org...

We have in the Hebrew Bible Deuteronomy 6:4 "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."

Thus The L-rd/YVHV is one, but they also believe Jesus is "a god / angel".

That angel/god, Jesus, everybody will bow to and confess he is lord:
so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend"of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+" 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10

For the Mormon, we can add Matthew 2:2 & 11, where Jesus is clearly worshiped
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him

Jesus is, as per the two previous verse a god/angel and he is the saviour.

According to JW's theories, Jesus is also the anger Michael. Thus there is the L-RD, and Jesus is Gabriel, a second god.
https://www.jw.org...

For the Mormons, we can read in one of their article:
"From the Prophet's account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit"
You see: "three separate beings." If those three separate being are not a trinity, then those are three gods.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man"s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
https://www.lds.org...

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
https://www.lds.org...

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father"
https://www.lds.org...

Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. Mormoni 8:8
https://www.lds.org...

Thus because both believe the The L-rd is different than Jesus. And that Jesus is god, their lord and their saviour and as per the new testament worshipped, we can conclude that they believe in at least 2 gods, and that is polytheism.

Thank you
persianimmortal

Con

First, I will discuss the JW's and later, the Mormons.

JW'S____

1) "The Word, Jesus as a god"
Pro is questioning the words "a god"" rather than referring to the unsupported claim of the Trinity.
In the NWT Bible, John 1:1 reads: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was "divine," or something similar. Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: "And the Word was God." So which is the correct translation of this verse?
Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the NWT rendering is correct and that "the Word" should not be identified as the "God" referred to earlier in the other translations.
Bible verses in the Greek language that have a construction similar to that of NW Translation. For example, when referring to Herod, the crowds shouted in Acts 12:22, "It is a god speaking" when Paul survived a bite by a poisonous snake in Acts 28:3-6, the people said: "He is a god." It is in harmony with both Greek grammar and Bible teaching to speak of the Word as, not God, but "a god." aka John 1:1.
For instance, when John states that the Word was "with God", how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? This is logically and scripturally impossible. John 1:1 clearly phrases God as separate from the Word (Nature of Christ). And since Word is written and identified in John 1:1 as separate from God (not just the Father), then that would positively exclude him as being God, in other words, the Trinity is debunked. Leo Tolstoy explained that , "If it says that in the beginning was the...Word, and that the Word was...WITH God, it is impossible to go on and say that it was God. If it was God, it could stand in no relation to God."
On top of that, in John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between Himself and His Heavenly Father. He calls His Father "the only true God." Interestingly, toward the end of the Gospel, John sums it all up in 20:31 by saying: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God." Notice that Jesus is called the Son of God and not God, because that would be blasphemous. This shows us how John 1:1 should be understood that the Nature of Christ, (the Word) is "a god" in the sense that He has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God.

So John 1:1 has nothing to do with polytheism. It's a clarification of a misunderstood verse.

2) "John 20:28"
You're argument screams the false doctrine of the Trinity. Your mention of this verse does not have any connection with the debate topic of Mormon and JW polytheistic beliefs.

3) "Deuteronomy 6:4, Phil 2:10,"
Your relation of the OT verse to the NT in your argument is baseless and rather irrelevant. Nothing to do with the JW portion of the debate topic.

MORMONS____

1) "Matthew 2:2"
The Magi or Wise Men, were Persian Zoroastrian Priests who, as per their religious teachings, set out into the world in search of the next Messenger of God, who Zoroaster (the preceding Messenger of God to Jesus Christ) explains will be Coming as "the Word" (The Vendidad of the Zend Avesta, Fargard 18:51). The Avesta (Zoroastrian Holy Book) depicts a very "book of Revelation" type of prophecy that was ultimately fulfilled by Christ. The Wise Men are simply looking for the one they were told to worship so this again does not have relevancy to the Mormon side of this debate topic.

2) "Matthew 2:11"
Again, this was the seeking Magi.

3) "Angel Micheal"
The JW doctrine states that Christ was angel Micheal, Before and After His life on Earth. Additionally, 1 Thess 4:16 says "WITH the voice of the archangel", not "AS the voice of the archangel". This verse explains that as the Lord descends, the archangel will alert everyone with his voice and his God-given trumpet. This all refers tot he Second Coming of Christ. This is also an unfortunate misunderstanding of the JW that can surely be explained but given my lack of time, I will do so in the other round.

4) "All the rest of the arguments in summary form"
One damaging thing the LDS Church has suffered is misconceptions and sects created by a variety of corrupt Church leaders have altered the foundation of Joesph Smith's Mormonism. One such damaging leaders were called the Brethren, would controlled the Church and unfortunately changed fundamental beliefs that Joseph Smith himself provided. Read about the atrocities of the Brethren if you can...it's ridiculous what they've done and I will hopefully talk about it in the next round. The Mormon belief is very strictly monotheistic and does not veer away from that, given that Joseph Smith himself says that there is ONLY One God.(D&C 132:24...Mosiah 15:2-5, etc)

your turn :)
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

Maybe my opponent did not understand my point. If G-d send Jesus (a god/angel) who is their lord (adon) and savior, and worthy or worship. Then The Upper CASE G sent the lower case god to the earth. There is no other way than seeing that as polytheism.

As my opponent agree that Jesus was a lower case god who was with the upper case GOD and sent by him. That this lower case god will save the world, then this is by definition, worshiping 2 gods. I do not believe in the trinity. I believe that G-d is one and that Jesus is not a god and that the Greek testament is not inspired.
persianimmortal

Con

My opponent has said the following as a clarification for the his original argument:
"Maybe my opponent did not understand my point. If G-d send Jesus (a god/angel) who is their lord (adon) and savior, and worthy or worship. Then The Upper CASE G sent the lower case god to the earth."

I have no problem with this and neither do the Scriptures. Since we both know the Trinity to be false, then the only explanation for "a god"" in the John 1:1 of the NWT is that, the Word will be God-like, which the original Greek would agree as I have said in my argument above. Essentially, the NWT of John 1:1 indicates to us that the Word will be a Manifestation of God, rather than God Himself. This does not by means support polytheism nor does it even have the slightest connection with it, but rather debunks the man-made doctrine of the Trinity.

My opponent continues and says:
"As my opponent agree that Jesus was a lower case god who was with the upper case GOD and sent by him."

And this, my friend, is the argument of the JWs. The LC (lower case) god was did not point to a god like those of Greek or Roman mythology but rather an image of UC (upper case) God or a reflective essence of God, the All-Knowing the All-Wise.

My opponent says:
"That this lower case god will save the world, then this is by definition, worshiping 2 gods."

Think of it this way: The relationship between the Manifestation of God and God Himself is that of a perfect mirror. God is likened to the Sun " the source of physical life on earth and the spirit and attributes of God are likened to the rays of the Sun. The Manifestation of God is likened to perfect mirrors reflecting the rays of the Sun. Therefore, the Manifestation of God act as pure mirrors that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world.

So in conclusion my friend, I may have not understood your original argument but there is no reason that you should call the Mormons of JWs, polytheists.
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

"...Indicates to us that the Word will be a Manifestation of God"

I am sorry, manifestations of G-d don't have their own mind and pray to G-d. Jesus and G-d were different being and thus, even if you have no problem with it, it's still polytheism. Jesus, the perfect image of the christian god spoke to the christian god and was under his authority. The voters can decides, nevertheless, the bigger god sent the lower gods through virgin birth to save the world of the bigger god's wrath. If they are not one, they you are worshipping 2 gods, and a third god if you add the "holy" spirit.
persianimmortal

Con

The following is a response of what my opponent has said:

I am sorry, manifestations of G-d don't have their own mind and pray to G-d. Jesus and G-d were different being and thus, even if you have no problem with it, it's still polytheism. Jesus, the perfect image of the christian god spoke to the christian god and was under his authority. The voters can decides, nevertheless, the bigger god sent the lower gods through virgin birth to save the world of the bigger god's wrath. If they are not one, they you are worshipping 2 gods, and a third god if you add the "holy" spirit.

...............1) "I am sorry, manifestations of G-d don't have their own mind and pray to G-d"...............

I"m sorry but I have a hard time understanding your reason on denying the concept of the Manifestation of God being the Word, given that the Word is manifested in the person of the Messengers of God. So either you"re unfamiliar with the term manifestation or you have never heard it being applied to a Messenger of God before. But regardless, praying to God is actually one of the main things the Messengers do, but before I go into responding my opponents argument, let"s understand one thing; manifestation does NOT imply God"s physical presence because that is scripturally wrong and implies the false doctrine of Trinity. By manifest, it means that Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, and Zoroaster are embodied by God"s qualities (Word/Logos), because the Word was God and with Him as well and became like a god here on Earth, given that God is not physical in nature so chooses a Messengers to represent Him. That is why the Greek language would totally agree with NWT version of John 1:1 and debunks the Trinity. I"ll give you an example: if we were in the time of Jesus, who would we look to in order to understand God? The clear answer is Jesus Christ because He was His (God"s) Messenger. So essentially the Jesus became like an LC (lower case) god to us yet He had a God Himself. So we ultimately have to pray to God and not to Jesus, because even Jesus prayed to God! So in conclusion, they (the Manifestations) have their own mind but are committed to spreading and sharing the Word of God here on Earth and they pray to God for His Blessings. If you want proof of this open the Bible and more examples such as these are laden inside.

...............2) Jesus and G-d were different being and thus, even if you have no problem with it, it's still polytheism................

False. So are you suggesting that since the Bible clearly shows Jesus praying to God, that His actions convey polytheism? Utterly false. You"re suggesting that the debunking of the Trinity, would promote polytheism but we aren't splitting God and Jesus up only to make gods out of both of them"No! God and Jesus are naturally separate but One in nature given the common bond of the Word. So even they are separate beings, they are One in essence. This is a very squirmish comment.

...............3) Jesus, the perfect image of the Christian god spoke to the Christian god and was under his authority...............

First, there is no such thing as a Christian God, scripturally or logically. On top of that, you referred to Jesus being the Christian (LC) god who apparently spoke to the Christian (LC) god and was under his authority. So you"re going to have to convince me why I should take your interpretation over the Bible"s Word. The only way I would agree with you in this sentence would be, if you deleted the words "the Christian", wrote upper-case "G" for the word god, again deleted the words "the Christian" and again wrote upper-case "G" for the word god, then I would agree with you. So the sentence would then read, "Jesus, the perfect image of God, spoke to God and was under His authority". Now, I agree with you.

...............4) The voters can decides, nevertheless, the bigger god sent the lower gods through virgin birth to save the world of the bigger god's wrath...............

Yes, God sends Messengers but that"s nothing new to you. So stating this is true, until the part of assuming every Messenger of God has a virgin birth. In addition to this, God sends His Messengers to guide humanity back to the right spiritual path and provide them Laws that will last until the Coming of a New Messenger to rejuvenate their souls. Clearly, and with all due respect, you don"t the purpose of a Messenger of God so I suggest you make an argument that"s worth my time. Please. :)

...............5) If they are not one, they you are worshipping 2 gods, and a third god if you add the "holy" spirit................
Again, you"re suggesting that the debunking of the Trinity, would promote polytheism but we aren"t splitting God and Jesus up only to make gods out of both of them, then add another "god" called the Holy Spirit"No! So again, you"re going to have to convince me why I should take your interpretation over the Bible"s Word.

...............Conclusion...............
In conclusion, I"m having a hard time accepting the claim that you "used" to be a Christian, given the amount of squirmish arguments. There are 2 conclusions we can draw from this: either you aren"t a Christian and are actually a Jew or Atheist or Skeptic posing as an Ex-Christian or you left a religion that you knew literally nothing about. Please consider than any of these options you choose will show either way that you need to read and thoroughly study the Bible and Christ"s claims as Messenger of God and the Messiah awaited by the Jews.

P.S.: I say all of this in the spirit of respect and friendship :)
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

"given that the Word is manifested in the person of the Messengers of God"

Messengers (angels were never worshipped for who they are. In the Hebrew Bible, only YVHV is worthy of worship. In the New testament, both Jesus and the father are worshipped, thus those are two gods.

"By manifest, it means that Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, and Zoroaster are embodied by God"s qualities"
All those are mare mortal. Yes, Moses was a prophet, and the other, in my opinion false prophet (that's another debate thought), but nobody ever worshipped Moses. Jesus is worshipped, and still is a second god.

"because the Word was God and with Him as well and became like a god here on Earth"
Hi the word permanently separate from the father and are not one as the false doctrine of the trinity proclaim, then the word because a second god.

" if we were in the time of Jesus, who would we look to in order to understand God"
We don't look at Jesus, anybody who makes himself a god is blaspheming as per the Torah.

"So essentially the Jesus became like an LC (lower case) god to us yet He had a God Himself."
That's not what the Mormons believe. JW believe that Jesus was an angel. None believe he was G-d himself. Oneness would still be considered a monotheistic belief, even if it's a false belief.

"So we ultimately have to pray to God and not to Jesus, because even Jesus prayed to God"
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. John 14:14

Messenger were people/spirit who were sent by G-d and spoke His word after hearing what G-d said. Nothing more, nothing less. None were worshipped as a god, but Jesus.

"God and Jesus are naturally separate but One in nature given the common bond of the Word."
That's just semantics, those two gods are bond and one in nature? You are trying to redefine the way you think and arrive at a reason why it's OK to worship 2 gods.

"why I should take your interpretation over the Bible"s Word."
The New Testament contradict the Hebrew Bible, which state G-d as ONE and only ONE. Thus the NT is not inspired.

"Jesus, the perfect image of God, spoke to God and was under His authority"
Jesus, the perfect image of God and a different being (god), spoke to God and was under His authority" STILL 2!

" assuming every Messenger of God has a virgin birth"
This is only per the New (non) Testament.

Isaiah 7 says young maiden.

"There are three things that are too amazing for me,
four that I do not understand:
19 the way of an eagle in the sky,
the way of a snake on a rock,
the way of a ship on the high seas,
and the way of a man with an ALMA.
20 "This is the way of an adulterous woman:
She eats and wipes her mouth
and says, "I"ve done nothing wrong." Proverbs 30:19-20

This alma is a slut" She is definitively not a virgin

Furthermore, the virgin is already with a child if you look at the Hebrew verse tense.

The girl had a son, and that"s where Jesus cannot be, by any mean the person of that prophecy. The land of the 2 kings that were a treat to Ahaz will be laid waste before that specific kid has grown up. (That"s in the time of Hezekiah). Also, how could you say "Before Jesus learns to reject the wrong"? I thought Jesus was sinless, and never did wrong.

"Messenger of God." The messenger of the queen is the the queen, neither the messengers of G-d. So you still worship 2 gods.

"holy Spirit"
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocatep to help you and be with you forever
Here G-d send a third helper... the third god, who is also different from G-d.

"There are 2 conclusions we can draw from this: either you aren"t a Christian and are actually a Jew or Atheist or Skeptic posing as an Ex-Christian or you left a religion that you knew literally nothing about."
Here's my testimony: https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com...

and G-d knows I speak the TRUTH. I believed in the non testament util I realized that the Trinity was totally wrong. And if not, then only oneness could be non-polytheistic (which I disagreed).

"Please consider than any of these options you choose will show either way that you need to read and thoroughly study the Bible and Christ"s claims as Messenger of God and the Messiah awaited by the Jews."
You only read your bible through the eyes of the Non Testament. But as per the Hebrew Scriptures, worshipping Jesus and having him as your saviour is unacceptable.

They worshiped the LORD, but they also served their own gods in accordance with the customs of the nations from which they had been brought.2 Kings 17:33
persianimmortal

Con

1) "both Jesus and the father are worshipped, thus those are two gods."
Given that Jesus Himself refuses and becomes outright angry when His disciples or anyone calls Him "God", I as a very religious individual, choose Jesus's side over your faulty and clearly uneducated interpretation....any flippin' day. So, when the Bible itself (regardless of the translation) never shows Jesus demanding anyone worship Him nor does God punish anyone who doesn't worship Jesus, then there's no point believing in anything you're saying. So you want understanding on this matter, read the Bible and actually study it. It's honestly for your own good and your own reputation.

2) "All those are mare mortal. Yes, Moses was a prophet, and the other, in my opinion false prophet (that's another debate thought), but nobody ever worshipped Moses. Jesus is worshipped, and still is a second god."
No relevancy to the discussion....My friend do yourself a favor and read the Bible.

3) "Hi the word permanently separate from the father and are not one as the false doctrine of the trinity proclaim, then the word because a second god."
Again, squirmish and no relevancy.

4) "We don't look at Jesus, anybody who makes himself a god is blaspheming as per the Torah."
Given that Jesus never did that, I don't know on what planet or what situation I would ever take your word for this. Man made Jesus look like God which is blasphemous (aka Trinity) and Jesus said no to this. My friend, I have read the Bible twice and this assumption is clearly faulty, has no reference, and very much laughable. Read the Bible. Jesus Christ > CapAhab

5) "That's not what the Mormons believe."
Yea they can believe anything they want, considering that you're actively doing that in this discussion. The thing is, their scriptures tell them otherwise, but again they can believe whatever makes them happy. Doesn't mean they're right.

6) " JW believe that Jesus was an angel."
Irrelevant for the topic of this debate. Sorry try again

7) "John 14:14"
Nothing to do with polytheism. Jesus is offering to do works in the name of His Father so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Look @ John 16:23, John 16:24, John 15:16.....Don't just write down verses in hopes of conveying a point that has no relevancy to the debate topic.

8) "None were worshipped as a god, but Jesus."
It's funny how you repeatedly say that and you contradict yourself by saying you disprove of the Trinity. This is the argument of the Trinitarians and shouldn't be one to help you in this debate. For you who thinks the Trinity is false it's odd for you to make such an unsupported claim.

9) "Semantics"
Which means "Study of meaning", and this meaning of the bond between Jesus and God is clearly a "semantic" you don't get. Being One in nature does not imply that they are physically one, hence the word nature. Then again, I don't know why you're trying to make an argument that Jesus never did. God and His Messengers are One, but not physically.

10) "You are trying to redefine the way you think and arrive at a reason why it's OK to worship 2 gods."
How do I redefine the way I think? That makes no sense. I don't redefine anything given that these aren't my arguments; they're Jesus's and God's. In addition to that, I believe in One God, and so do the Mormons and JW, along with the rest of the religious world.

11) "The New Testament contradict the Hebrew Bible"
You have yet to prove that and based on your arguments, you clearly have no reason to hold such a view.

12) "Jesus, the perfect image of God and a different being (god), spoke to God and was under His authority" STILL 2!"
THAT....my friend, is a COMPLETE twist of my words!. Re-read my argument and don't squirm around. I never implied 2 gods, Jesus never did either, and God...well there is One God, so I have no idea which place you pulled that from.

13) "This is only per the New (non) Testament."
You said every Messenger of God so again you lose for having no proof haha

As for the rest of your points my friend, it seems to me that you were never a Christian, but are a Jew or Anti-Christian that has, for some odd reason, taken the title of Ex-Christian to simply bash on Christianity and Christ. I asked you to simply read the Bible....and study it, thoroughly. You have no excuse to make such claims given that Jesus Christ never made them. The only way we can prove my theory of you being a false Ex-Christian is that, every argument you've had, starts specifically attacking one point within Christianity and then attacking Christ and Christianity as a whole. You've contradicted yourself one multiple occasions and have simply spewed verses that you think defend your stance but have no relevancy to the debate topic. I urge you to understand and study and investigate the Bible through and through. And understand that your reason of apparently "leaving" Christianity is makes no sense because if you were truly a believer in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) and essentially a good Jew who follows the Scriptures to the point, you would fall in love with Christ and never let go. So clearly you have lots of homework to do and before you make any arguments against Christ, think about it as if you're before God. Will those be the same arguments you'll present to God?
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
You too :)
Posted by persianimmortal 1 year ago
persianimmortal
I got this...Good luck buddy :)
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Done
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
If you remove "believe in" from the definition of polytheism, I will accept the debate
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Angels are not worshipped. Angels are really only messenger (angels) of G-d.
Posted by philochristos 1 year ago
philochristos
"god
a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality"

By that definition, angels are gods, which makes almost all Christians polytheists.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Thanks for the explanation. I still think they are polytheist!
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
Both only worship one God. Mormons believe other Gods worthy of worship exist, but only worship one God. Jws, on the other hand, believe in the existence of lesser gods, but only worship Jehovah God.
No votes have been placed for this debate.