The Instigator
InkSlinger4
Pro (for)
Winning
34 Points
The Contender
Evan_MacIan
Con (against)
Losing
17 Points

Mormons are Christian

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/29/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,330 times Debate No: 3842
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (75)
Votes (15)

 

InkSlinger4

Pro

A Christian is defined as someone who believes and adheres to Christ. Mormons do so, and believe in most commonly accepted facts about Jesus and the Bible. Written mainly as a response to 'Mormons are not christians', but anyone can argue. I don't know why anyone contests this, so I will wait for an opponent to give me something to prove wrong.
Evan_MacIan

Con

This is a very simple issue, or at least it is as far as I will argue it.

I believe that Mormons are not Christian (the adjective, for the nitpicker commenting below) because words ought to have meaning, and saying that Mormons are Christians strips the word "Christian" of any substantial meaning.

Everyone here probably agrees that Protestants and Catholics are Christian.

The only thing that these two very different groups can claim to have in common is their Christology. The theology, practices, everything possible common thread diverges at some point. The only thing they have in common is their Christology, the Christology of the Nicene Creed. In every other way, the beliefs of a Christian are variable.

And now we want to throw the Christology out the window.

1800 years into the history of Christianity, it is decided that we are to throw the only real unifying and omnipresent belief of the Christian religion to the dogs.

We can't have this.

Christian used to be a word like thunder. When a man spoke of Christendom, he was speaking of a civilization that failed often, but always SOUGHT to be a light to the world. Christianity was the light of the Dark Ages and the driving force of a continent.

Now a Christian is any man who feels vaguely that it is good to help other people. He holds to the ethical teachings of Christ, and though he thinks Buddha and Muhammed were equally great men, he is to be called a Christian.

Vote con because words ought to mean something. Vote con to reverse the degradation of a word that used to sound like a hammer on steel in the forge of the world.

If nothing else,
Vote con because Christians ought to have the same Christology.
Debate Round No. 1
InkSlinger4

Pro

The fact that Protestants and so forth are commonly accepted as Christian does not in any way affect whether or not Mormons are. Mormons believe in his divinity, life, teachings, and his status as our savior. His name is actually in the official name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's one thing it has that others don't- the continual declaration that Jesus is the Christ. I don't understand how you can say that the Christology differs- point out some actual differences and show how they affect fundamental belief and I might have something for you there.
Evan_MacIan

Con

"The fact that Protestants and so forth are commonly accepted as Christian does not in any way affect whether or not Mormons are."
Huh? Who was considered Christian before doesn't affect who should be considered a Christian now?

"His name is actually in the official name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
So? I'm proposing a theological/historical definition of Christianity. What someone's official name might be does not particularly concern me.

"There's one thing it has that others don't- the continual declaration that Jesus is the Christ."
Well this is just blatantly wrong. I can't think of any mainstream denomination of sect that denies that Jesus is the Christ.

Ok, stuff Mormons and Christianity as it was practised for 1700 years disagree on:

God the Father does not have a physical body.
The Trinity
God is eternal and we are aeveternal
God is above nature and the creator of nature
God the Father and Jesus Christ are homoousian
God was always divine
Christ is the new Adam
Original Sin's role in the Crucifixion
Debate Round No. 2
InkSlinger4

Pro

You aren't reading my argument clearly- I stated in the part you pasted that it was the protestants and Catholics, commonly accepted as Christian.

The topic of this argument is that Mormons are Christian. If they have his name in the title of their church,
is it not somewhat of an indication of their belief in him?

And I didn't say that anyone denies him. I said they didn't proclaim his divinity as often or as clearly.

Most of those differences have to do with the spiritual definition of God, not the personage we're discussing here (though you guys do think they're one and the same.) The one contrast applying to Christ is that he is the same being as God, and that has nothing to do with pretty much everything important that he did. The important things that he taught and did were not dependent on what he did, since either separate or homosousian (you spelled it wrong), he could have saved us from our sins and taught about compassion and whatnot, according to both religions.

The definition of Jesus as the Christ is totally dependent on the fact that he atoned for our sins, something that is as much or more the key of the Mormon religion as much as any other. No differing of opinion on his life or being prior to that act is as pivotal or vital to Christianity.

For the record, Mormons also believe in the bible, including the New Testament, the real documentation of his life. They also have added to the scriptures with the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (Further declaration of his name) which further records his acts on Earth (3 Nephi, Chapters 11-18).

The fact that Mormons believe in Christ and his divine role, name their church after him and declare it led by him, believe in the Bible as documentation of his life, and continue to receive revelation from him, culminates into a truth that is impossible to call not Christian.
Evan_MacIan

Con

The problem with your argument is that you do not give standards for your definition. If a Christian is someone who merely agrees that Christ is the messiah, then Mormons are Christian. But I don't think that definition is defined enough. I think that when defining a Christian, the definition ought to be historical and theological. If Mormonism is a recent development in history, it is not historically Christian. If Mormonism disagrees with just about every Christian in history in its theology of Christ, it is not Christian. Your definition is unsupported, and therefore I believe mine to be superior.

"I said they didn't proclaim his divinity as often or as clearly."
Irrelevant, but I doubt it's true anyway.

"Most of those differences have to do with the spiritual definition of God, not the personage we're discussing here (though you guys do think they're one and the same.)"
And since we think them one and the same, and you don't, they are very relevant.

"The one contrast applying to Christ is that he is the same being as God, and that has nothing to do with pretty much everything important that he did."
I disagree very much. The doctrine of the Incarnation is vitally important to Christianity. It is certainly one of the primary mysteries of the Catholic faith. I don't see how you could deem an all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal God becoming man to be unimportant.

"homosousian"
I did not spell it wrong. And if I did (which I didn't) your spelling was infinitely worse. My spelling got 11,500 hits on google, a wikipedia page, and no alternate spelling. Your spelling got 2 hits on google, both from books.google.com/books?id..., and a prompt: "Did you mean: 'homoousian.'"

"The definition of Jesus as the Christ is totally dependent on the fact that he atoned for our sins, something that is as much or more the key of the Mormon religion as much as any other."
That's demonstratively false. For instance, one of the big beefs during the Reformation was how we are saved. Christians differ on what atonement even means.

"No differing of opinion on his life or being prior to that act is as pivotal or vital to Christianity."
You're claiming that WHO CHRIST IS is unimportant to CHRISTianity? Does that even make sense?

------------------------------------recap---------------------------------------
Words ought to have meaning. My opponent gives you no basis for his claim than his opinion of what Christian ought to mean. I gave you historical and theological reasons why Mormons are seperate and distinct from Christianity. The Christ I worship is one person of the Trinity. The Christ I worship is the master of creation and not a part of it. The Christ I worship can only do what He did because He was God.

I ask you to vote con because definitions ought to be definite, and Christians ought to believe in the same Christ.
Debate Round No. 3
75 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by humanistheart 7 years ago
humanistheart
Passages from the Quaran:

[3:45][And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allāh gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allāh].

[4:157] And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

[4:171-172] O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allāh except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allāh and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allāh and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allāh is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allāh as Disposer of affairs.

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allāh, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant – He will gather them to Himself all together.

[5:17] They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allāh is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allāh at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allāh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allāh is over all things competent.

Yes muslims believe in allah, and yes they believe jesus was the messiah.
Posted by cooljpk 7 years ago
cooljpk
They believe in God(Allah) not in the power of Christ, but Mormons believe in his all saving Powers!!!
"humanistheart" facts ???
Posted by humanistheart 7 years ago
humanistheart
"A Christian is defined as someone who believes and adheres to Christ. " Technically don't muslims hold to this too? Are you going to argue that muslims are christians too then?
Posted by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
Intro is explained, it is a statement relating to blood atonement that you said was never taught,, It was taught by the church, in this case it was by B Young. One sick religion !

Second statement was by Joseph Smith.
Posted by cooljpk 8 years ago
cooljpk
I Bet All you See is "Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." When You tell Me What each Sentence means i will response. because until then it looks like it is out of context.(i have seen the whole thing) and irony of the situation and if it wasn't out of context. he is only a man, is he not aloud to make a mistake, is he not aloud to commit sin.

. . . What??? (intro has no relation to the rest and NO clear direction) Please clarify!

No Response to there charity, service and love. I wouldn't either it hard to fight against i understand.
Posted by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, an put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.

Author: Brigham Young Mormon prophet
Source: Journal Of Discourses (LDS church teaching records)
Volume: 3
Page: 247
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)--n "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409,, WHAT A HUMBLE SERVANT,
JAMES 4:16,_ But now ye rejoice in your boasting,all such rejoicing is evil. ARE YOU GETTING THE PICTURE cooljpk,, Try frozenjpk, coz your far from warm.
Posted by cooljpk 8 years ago
cooljpk
what is Christianity? because if it giving to other or helping the less fortunate. they sure do a heck of a job. look at http://en.wikipedia.org... and http://www.providentliving.org...
that is what the "brethren" or the Elders, as it is better known, teach. service, charity and LOVE. when ancient prophets taught their was no more discussion nor why should their be.

Who do you think you are to make unwarranted and very biased accusation?

we don't say those thing. . . We quote them from Isaiah, Malachi, Peter, Paul and Jesus Christ himself.

That is a basic teaching in the LDS Church. no where in our books teach any thing remotely close to that.

You completely lost me at "brought in Blood atonement to make the difference, which is killing people for sins they are unable to be forgiven for".

They Teach to help other get to heaven and to show God their diligence and sacrifice and LOVE to him.

Practices in any church change over time. Even in the one Christ set up on the church set up on the earth himself.

Mormons Teach The truest form of compassion, service and LOVE. No church is as generous or true to the bible than the LDS church is. Christianity is showing compassion, service and LOVE.

When You prove that A church Show as much compassion, service and LOVE as the Mormons I will concede but until then I will respect the Mormons and their commitment. and if you cant prove it Shut Up!!!

DO NOT use Gay Marriage on me. that is a discrimination to God and Human kind on any view points.
Posted by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
The question should not be if Mormons are christian or not, but rather, does Mormonism teach Christianity?, No, I have never met a faithful Mormon who knew what Christianity is, because it is so diluted, by "the Brethren" for anyone who does not know who the Brethren are, it's the ones who tell the Members "When the brethren have spoken, the thinking is done",, so it's the ones who try and control what others can think, (Very Christian)
And who do you think got the most favoured plots of land when the early pioneers settled in Utah, you know the ones beside creeks and best views, the Brethren or the Member?, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't christian like, no wonder God sent them a plaque as promised in the unreliable they talk about.

These are the same people that teach that our God "Jesus" can balance the universe,bring back people from the dead, open up seas, etc,, but if he were to bring out a book, "do not trust it",, these are the ones that teach "Jesus did not take away the sins of the World",, and brought in Blood atonement to make the difference, which is killing people for sins they are unable to be forgiven for, and teaching it is done as a favour, so they can get to Heaven, "Grapes of thorns and figs of thistles", but they will tell you they do not practice it anymore, and at the same time refuse to remove it from doctrine, Christian?,, don't make me laugh.
Posted by cooljpk 8 years ago
cooljpk
every thing but the first two (which are incredibly unwarranted and non-understandable)
are in the bible. . .
did die for all sin if you believe, except and work
the priesthood left the earth cause of the stupidity and corruptness of men
you need both on this word (no one except 5 men know how much we have and your not one of them)
for the great and dread ful day of the lord
Jame 2:17-20
we need both by showing 1st we're not addicted to money and 2nd to build and strengthen his church
What?!?!?!?!?!?!?
and that is a completely horrible analogy
Posted by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
Mormon Jesus Christian Jesus
Needs shopping mall (Utah) No need for a Shopping Mall
Needs to buy land in Las Vegas already owns the land
Died for most of the sins (see Blood atonement) Died for all sins
His Church died,and needed restored. He is the Church,and never dies
Has over 30 Billion dollars in assets Has assets money cannot buy
Needs Temples,some with 12ft thick walls Children are his Temples
Gives grace if your works merit it Gives Grace without works
Wants 10% of your income Wants 100% of your soul
No personal relationship required No relationship no Kingdom
There is a big difference between the two, I have only listed a few, Mormons use Jesus Christ in the name of their Church, we have a huge shop in our town, called Staples, I have used it many times, but you really have to search the place if you're looking for Staples, we also have another shop called toys r us, need I say more ?..
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by cooljpk 8 years ago
cooljpk
InkSlinger4Evan_MacIanTied
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Vote Placed by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
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Vote Placed by left_wing_mormon 9 years ago
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