The Instigator
JaxsonRaine
Pro (for)
Winning
16 Points
The Contender
Neonix
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

Mormons are Christians - Apologetic Setup [01]

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
JaxsonRaine
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/26/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,076 times Debate No: 20668
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (32)
Votes (5)

 

JaxsonRaine

Pro

The [XX] in the resolution is just a numbering system to keep track of repeated resolutions. The resolution is 'Mormons are Christians'.

The burden of proof will lie with Con to show that Mormons aren't Christians. I will respond to any points Con brings up, and show that Mormon beliefs are indeed Christian. In this way, I will be playing a defensive, or apologetic role.

There will be three rounds. Con will begin with arguments R1, and I will respond to R1 in R2. This will continue, so Con will not be allowed to present arguments in R4, as we will have both had 3 rounds.

For the purposes of this debate, the following definitions apply:

Mormons - Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Christians - [people] who follow or belong to a religion based on the worship of one God and the teachings of Jesus Christ as described in the Bible .
Christian(Biblical Definition) - A follower of Christ, from the Greek 'Christianos'

Neonix

Con

Joseph Smith said that Christians are "all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19).

Argument One: The founder of the religion did not want to be regarded as a Christian
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"The name Christian was first used, as Acts 11:26 records, to identify the disciples of Jesus Christ. The word "Christian" is the Greek word "christianos," and it means an adherent of Jesus Christ. It literally means "Christ ones" (Acts
11:26, 26:28, 1 Peter 4:16). The correct definition of the word is one who is a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. For almost two thousand years it has never had a reference to anyone other that the historical Jesus Christ of the
New Testament."

"The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted "man" who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He "earned" godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a
god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of "their"
world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression."

Note the following quote from the Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the
point were He is."Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church, made this statement in the
second verse of his famous poem entitled, "Man's Destiny":"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's
destiny. . ."The God of the Bible is not an exalted man. The God of the Bible is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. The Bible says He is the only God and there are no other Gods. He had no beginning or end and he is a spirit being and never was a man.

http://www.seafox.com...

Argument Two: The Mormon God is not the God of the Bible. Simply because the Mormon Church recognizes "A Jesus", does not make them Christians. Muslims also recognize "A Jesus". They are also not Christians.

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Mormon beliefs are considered to be so far outside the beliefs of most Christians that the Roman Catholic Church, Presbyterians and the United Methodist Church all declared that Mormon converts must be re-baptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination. The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted." The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon
view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's. Southern Baptists have called Utah "a stronghold of Satan".


Point Three: The Church of Christ is one body. The body of Christ has wholly rejected Mormonism. While this is not a definiton of a Christian (that the Church accepts you), it certainly adds credence to the argument. Christians generally recognize each other.
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Debate Round No. 1
JaxsonRaine

Pro

I appreciate Con accepting this debate and presenting his arguments.


Argument One: The founder of the religion did not want to be regarded as a Christian

Con mis-quotes Joseph Smith's history. Joseph Smith claimed that Jesus said all the Christian sects were wrong, and the professors were all corrupt. By professors, it is referring to the individual church leaders Joseph Smith had been talking to, it is not a blanket statement about all Christians.

Con also twists this to mean that Mormons didn't intend to be Christians from the start, but this claim is also unfounded. The LDS church was founded on the belief in Jesus Christ, the teachings of the Bible, and the restoration of prophetic revelation to the earth. Seeing as LDS incorporated Jesus' name into the title of the church, and accept the Bible as the word of God, there is no base to the claim that they didn't consider themselves Christians.


Argument Two: The Mormon God is not the God of the Bible

Firstly, Con is misrepresenting Mormon belief on the subject of God. God was not appointed to the position as god of planet earth. God is the creator of the earth and heavens. Whether this refers to the universe, a multiverse, or parallel dimensions isn't specified in Mormon theology, just as the details of creation aren't specified in the Bible.

Also, there is no official position on how the Father came to be God. Whether that process was a process similar to what Christ went through or something else, there is no official stance or teaching. That being said, Christ said that the son can do nothing but what he has seen the Father do, so it is possible he is referring to the Father having experienced mortality and resurrection before creating the universe.

To Mormons, Jesus is the Son of God the Father.[1] As to the characteristics of the Father, Con is not distinguishing between biblical teaching and traditional Christian interpretation of the Bible. God is the only God(creator and Father) that will ever be God, and nothing about becoming like him diminshes that.

Con also uses Journal of Discourses, which is not an official publication of the Church or accepted as official doctrine.

As to the God of the Bible being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, I would ask Con to support his assertions. Science considers the Big Bang to be the best explanation for the creation of the universe. With the Big Bang, space and time were created. Our universe and time-line didn't exist before the moment of the Big Bang. So, if the Big Bang is how God created the universe, then he truly has been God for all time in our universe. There are no scriptures that spell out the details of creation, the details of the characteristics and history of God. God wants us to be more concerned with the present and how we live our lives, than trying to teach us all the truth and all the history of all the universe(s), as we wouldn't be able to handle all that. God has chosen the best things to teach us, so that we can become perfect, even as He is perfect.

As to god being a spirit, this is also unsubstantiated. In scripture we are told that God is spirit, not a spirit. I am mortal, does that mean I am made up of 'mortal'? No, it is referring to a characteristic of me. God is spirit, God is love, God has an image similar to man(as we were created in that image). God has a body(face, feet, back). Mormons believe in the God of the Bible, albeit a different interpretation than what is considered traditional.


Argument Three: The Church of Christ
Appeal to popular belief. Nothing that any church says about another church is biblical source. Mormons believe that traditional baptism isn't valid because the authority of the prophets and apostles isn't with those churches(they don't have prophets and apostles, the foundation of the Church of Christ).

Nothing in argument three addresses biblical teachings, so it can't be considered a valid criticism of Mormonism.



[1]http://mormon.org...




Neonix

Con

Pro said:"By professors, it is referring to the individual church leaders Joseph Smith had been talking to, it is not a blanket statement about all Christians."


Answer: Incorrect. By professors he speaks of all who "profess Christ" (declare Christ). As Baptism is an "outward profession of faith". He was not talking about college professors. It was indeed a blanket statement.
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Pro:"Con also twists this to mean that Mormons didn't intend to be Christians from the start, but this claim is also unfounded. "


Answer: Proverbs 30:5-6Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
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Pro said:"Also, there is no official position on how the Father came to be God"


Answer: God is eternal. He did not "come to be". He has always been.

Genesis 21:33Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Psalm 90:1-4 ....Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world,from everlasting to everlasting you are God."

John 8:58 I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!

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Pro said: "God is the only God(creator and Father) that will ever be God, and nothing about becoming like him diminishes that."


Answer: Answer this question in the next round please. What is most important to God?
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Pro asked: "As to the God of the Bible being omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, I would ask Con to support his assertions."


Answer: Sure.


Omnipresent:
Jeremiah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD.
Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).

Omnipotent:
Jeremiah 32:17 (NKJV) 'Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You.
Luke 1:37 (NKJV) "For with God nothing will be impossible."
Psalms 115:3 (NKJV) But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.


Omniscient:
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power;his understanding has no limit.
1 John 3:19-20 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none like me,declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.
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Pro said: There are no scriptures that spell out the details of creation, the details of the characteristics and history of God.


Answer:

Creation - See Genesis Chapter 1


Character of God :

  • Eternality of Jesus - Hebrews 1:2But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
  • Love -1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
  • Morality - 1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
  • Mercy 1 John 2:2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  • Justice Romans 14:11For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
  • Patience 2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.



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Pro: As to god being a spirit, this is also unsubstantiated. In scripture we are told that God is spirit, not a spirit.


Answer: Ok, we can remove the indefinite article "a". What is this supposed to change?


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Pro said: Mormons believe in the God of the Bible, albeit a different interpretation than what is considered traditional.


Answer: Mormons wrote another book. That is not interpretation. The King James Bible is an interpretation.

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Pro: Mormons believe that traditional baptism isn't valid because the authority of the prophets and apostles isn't with those churches(they don't have prophets and apostles, the foundation of the Church of Christ).


Answer: Explain this further please. I want to make sure I fully grasp this before I answer. You may add it in the comments section if you run out of debating room.


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My next point:
Covenants 59:23 "But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world and eternal life in the world to come."


The problem with that:
Titus 3:4-7 "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Mormonism teaches salvation by works. The Bible repeatedly emphasizes that we receive salvation through grace...."so that none may boast."


Mormonism is a flagrantly false teaching.
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Debate Round No. 2
JaxsonRaine

Pro

Professors - Con has stated that he thinks this refers to all Christians. I have stated it refers to the preachers. Joseph Smith was intrigued by religion and spent much time talking with the local church leaders, but he was always left more confused than he started. He asked God which church to join, and was told that they had been corrupted, and that the professors were corrupt. I believe this is in regards to those men of whom Joseph was seeking guidance.

Christian Intent - Con didn't refute my statement. Con asserted that Mormons didn't intend to be Christians, which I refuted, and Con has now conceded this point by referencing Proverbs and not addressing my point.

God is Eternal - Eternal is capitalized. It is a title of God. It comes from the Hebrew 'owlam', meaning 'long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient'.[1] The concept of God being as old as the universe fulfills all of these possible translations of the word, as time began with the creation of the universe. Everlasting in Psalm 90:1-4 is the same 'owlam', meaning that specific interpretation of the meaning of the word can be understood in slightly different contexts. John can also be interpreted to mean many different things. Christ is referring to Exodus 3:14 when the Lord told Moses 'I am that I am'. However, this isn't proof that supports Con's point.

Important to God - I don't know if there is an 'official' Mormon standpoint on what is most important to God, but as they believe in the Bible, I suppose it would be the following: (Matthew 22:36-40)

"
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

So it would seem God cares most that we love Him and our neighbours.

Omnipresent - God's Sprit and presence is everywhere. So what does that mean? Mormons believe that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, a personage of spirit that isn't constrained by a physical body. So, that fits. What about presence? God's love is everywhere. His guidance is everywhere(your hand shall lead me doesn't refer to an actual hand, it is clear this is figurative speech). Mormons believe that God is omnipresent through the Holy Spirit, his guidance, and love, not that the Father is actually everywhere at once, physically.

Omnipotent - Is this meant to be taken literally? Nothing is impossible, meaning that God can come up with a math question so difficult that He can't answer it, except that He can answer it, because He can do anything, meaning that He can't come up with a question so difficult that He can't answer it. Instead, God is almighty, from the Hebrew 'shadday' which means 'most powerful'. What this means, is that God can do anything that can be done. Mormons believe this.

Omniscient - Mormons believe that God knows all things.[2]

Details of Creation - Genesis talks about the creation. It doesn't go into the mechanics of how it happened.

Character of God - Jesus created the world. Mormons believe this. God is love, Mormons believe this. Same with the others. The point that Con missed is that the scriptures don't go into detail about every characteristic of God. What is God made of? What kinds of particles and energies. God has been seen in the scriptures, so what does God look like? The scriptures aren't all-inclusive of every truth, we are left to discover for ourselves. Con would have to show how scripture contradicts Mormon teachings, but can't do this by saying 'X isn't taught in the Bible'.

God is Spirit - The article 'a' is all-important. If I say 'This object is a car', then we know it is a car. The article allows the word car to be a noun. If I say 'This object is red', then red is an adjective. Red doesn't tell us everything about the object, just one of its characteristics. In this way, God is Spirit, but that isn't all that God is.

Book of Mormon - The Bible doesn't state that it is all the word of God and that there can be no other scripture.

Baptism - Mormons believe that authority to act in God's name comes from the priesthood. The priesthood was given to the apostles, and they oversaw the Church. When the apostles died, the priesthood authority was lost with them, so everything done since then wasn't done with God's authoritative seal.

Grace and Works - Mormons teach salvation by grace and works, together. We don't boast of our works, but works are required. If works weren't required, God wouldnt' give us commandments. Faith without works is dead.

Again, I have clearly shown these topics to be in line with Biblical teachings. While Con may not agree with specific interpretations, the biblical basis exists. Mormons are indeed Christians.


[1]http://www.biblestudytools.com...
[2]http://www.lds.org...

Neonix

Con

Just because I don't revisit a point for a second defense, doesn't mean I concede. It means I'm not changing my answer.

To expand on previous points:




Point 1: Mormons are not Christians:

How Mormons View Christians:
=================================
Mormon Opinion on Christians (Non Mormons)-
Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon
' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize your face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13


No salvation without Joseph Smith. The first human, born of sin, to carry authority over salvation?!?!?!
======================

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."
- Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- Apostle George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142


Mormons believe Islam has is better than Christianity
============================

"The Greek and Roman Churches, which have been called Christian, and which take the name of Christians as a cloak, have worshipped innumerable idols. On this account, on the simple subject of the Deity and His worship, if nothing more, I should rather incline, of the two, after all my early traditions, education, and prejudices, to the side of Mahomet, for on this point he is on the side of truth, and the Christian world on the side of idolatry and heathenism."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses

In review:



    • Joseph Smith (1st LDS President: 1830-1844) taught all non-Mormon churches are wrong, and that their creeds are an "abomination" and that Mormons are the only true church.

    • Brigham Young (2nd LDS President; 1847-1877) taught the Christian world is "groveling in darkness and are heathens."

    • John Taylor (3rd LDS President; 1880-1887) taught Christians are as spiritually ignorant as the brute beast.

    • Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President; 1970-1972) affirmatively quotes Joseph Smith that all the "Christian" churches were in error.

    • Spencer W. Kimball (12th LDS President: 1973–1985) taught Mormonism is the only true church

    • Bruce McConkie (Mormon Apostle; 1915-1985) declared the "church of the devil is modern, apostate Christianity in all its parts" and only faithful Mormons are true Christians.

    • Gordon B. Hinckley, (LDS 15th President; 1995-2008) continued the deceitful practice of redefining Christian to mean the faithful Mormon and then declares Mormons are Christian.


=============================================================================

Point 2: What is important to God

Pro said - I don't know if there is an 'official' Mormon standpoint on what is most important to God, but as they believe in the Bible, I suppose it would be the following: (Matthew 22:36-40)

Answer: Well, there is an official Christian standpoint. We find it in the Bible.
You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified (Isaiah 49:3).
Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory. (Isaiah 43:6-7)
For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” (Romans 9:17)
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen. (Exodus 14:4, 18; cf. v. 17)
I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. (Ezekiel 20:l4)
Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name.. . . And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name. . . . And the nations will know that I am the Lord. (Ezekiel 36:22-23; cf. v. 32)
The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. (John 7:l8)
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16; cf. 1 Peter 2:12)
How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? (John 5:44)
Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13)
But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.’ Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again’ (John 12:27-28).
I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins. (Isaiah 43:25)
Welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God. (Romans 15:7)
So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God (l Corinthians 10:31; cf. 6:20).


Mormonism teaches that men can become Gods.
While the entire scripture is based on the reconciliation of mankind to God, for the glory of God, Mormonism teaches that we being housebroken for our own glory.









Debate Round No. 3
JaxsonRaine

Pro

Point 1: Mormons are not Christians

First, I will point out that official Mormon doctrine only comes in the form of official Mormon Channels. There have been quite a few church members who were vocal and opinionated, and have written things that have been corrected by the Church.

Orson Pratt's remarks can be applied to any person. Everyone will go to hell unless they repent. It is also important to note the timeframe in which remarks are made, as the members of the Mormon church were undergoing tremendous prosecution by other Christians, and the government, since the church was founded. As such, opinions of these people who drove the Mormons out of their homes, cities, and states, were much stronger in the early days of the church.

Books such as Gospel Truth and Journal of Discourses are not official publications, and their contents aren't considered official theology. Brigham Young's remark doesn't condemn anyone, but simply states how he realized that people were 'worshipping in darkness', because the light of the fulness of the gospel had been lost from the earth. This is common imagery in Mormon teachings, and it doesn't refer to any type of satanic worship if that is what Con is getting at.

Mormon theology teaches that any ordinance not performed by the authority of the Priesthood, as directed and overseen by the Prophets and Apostles, is null in the eyes of the Lord. For this reason, there are many teachings like these that reference other people going to hell. There is always the condition of repentence, and indeed Mormon theology teaches that all mankind will have the opportunity to hear, understand, and accept the truth of Jesus Christ before the final judgement.

This ties into the point about accepting Joseph Smith. Just as with every aspect of the truth of the Gospel, we must accept it all to be able to enter heaven. One cannot reach judgement and proclaim 'I believe in everything, except for Moses', as the gospel is not perfect if it is incomplete.

Similarly, Christ told the 12 apostles in the Bible that they would be judges over the house of Israel.[Matthew 19:28] Christ is the final judge, but the prophets and apostles of every age will sit as judges over those people.

As to Islam, again this is an unofficial source. That being said, there are many things about the Catholic Church that are against the teachings of the Bible. This, however, is outside the scope of this debate.


Response to 'In Review'(this section has been apparently plaigerized)[http://defendchristians.org...]
  • Believing that your church is the only true church doesn't make you non-Christian. Con hasn't shown why this is considered non-Christian.
  • Brigham Young did say that the Christians of the day were "heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God". In other words, they didn't know the salvation of God, they didn't understand it, and they didn't have the privilege of partaking of the ordinances of the gospel under priesthood authority.
  • John Taylor - anyone without the truth is ignorant of it. Con is attempting to throw Mormons under a bad light rather than providing evidence that their teachings contradict the Bible.
  • Joseph Fielding Smith - There is nothing wrong with making this claim. Most churches think they are the only ones who have got it right.
  • Spencer W. Kimball - See Above.
  • Bruce R. McConkie was corrected many, many times by the prophet. He was an opinionated man. Brilliant, but opinionated. This is why it is important to reference official church material.
  • Hinckley - No reference for what Hinckley said, and there is nothing un-Christian about claiming to be Christian.
Most important to God

This could easily be a matter of interpretation. Christ confirmed the two greatest commandments, which would be the two greatest things that God wants us to do; love God and love our neighbors. Loving God is a method of honoring and giving glory to God, and anyone who loves God does so in other ways as well.

Con's last paragraph

Mormons teach that men can become gods. Not God. There is only one God. Similarly, Mormons teach that we will always honor and give glory to God. Con's assertion that Mormons are housebroken for their own glory is unfounded and false.

As this is the last round, I re-assert that Mormons believe the Bible, and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Con has failed to succesfully point out any contradictions between Mormon belief and biblical teachings. Con has also failed to address a myriad of my own refutations, but simply repeats statements.
Neonix

Con

As per the terms of this debate. I will not post arguments during the final round.
Debate Round No. 4
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
......m'kay.
Posted by JaxsonRaine 5 years ago
JaxsonRaine
No, 'They do not consider other Christians as Christians' is a strawman. They don't consider themselves the only true church, but that's not unique to Mormonism. Your statement is an unmerited stretch of Mormon beliefs.

Here, I'll fix your statement to fit with Mormon beliefs: "They do not consider other Christians as members of the true church of Christ, because they are not Mormon."
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
It is absolutely the same thing. They do not consider other Christians as Christians....because other Christians are NOT MORMON. Which means, the LDS church defines a Christian as a "Mormon", which is NOT what Christian means. Joseph Smith obviously agreed when he called the Christian church the wh**e of Babylon.

Mormons are not Christians and they desire no affiliation with other Christians. Mormons have more in common with Islam, because both are seeking to dominate, while real Christians have attempted to live amongst secularists through pluralism. Mormonism is not a theology, it's an identity. It's not Christianity. Just by the raw Greek translation...not Christian.
Posted by JaxsonRaine 5 years ago
JaxsonRaine
No, they say the Mormon church is the only true Christian church with all the teachings and the priesthood authority. That's not the same thing.

You said they don't consider themselves Christian. They do. Your post here doesn't even have anything to do with that.
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
Well, from what I learned through my research, he changed the definition of Christian from:" Christ like" to "Mormon" and then excluded anyone who wasn't Mormon. That's.....not right. I don't even know what to call that. Cheating maybe?
Posted by JaxsonRaine 5 years ago
JaxsonRaine
Neonix, the church leaders saying 'Christianity had been corrupted' doesn't mean they don't consider themselves Christian. Joseph Smith considered himself as restoring true Christianity.
Posted by Neonix 5 years ago
Neonix
Yea, alright. I certainly did enter the debate with some presumption. I actually failed to see that I accepted the burden of proof. To be honest, I debated to counter his argument, not to furnish proof. I can't say much about that. So...hurray Wiploc, thanks for the sound verbal thrashing on that account. On the other hand, I still find your justifications a little weak. After all, I provided plenty of evidence that Mormons do not consider themselves Christian, from the mouths of several LDS presidents. Just because the opposition screams:"Hey that doesn't count. We no longer believe that!" Doesn't void the evidence. Did he show evidence that the Church no longer accepts this policy (as of...2008?)

Regardless, I have several debates in voting status. I'll recall my request to remove yourself from voting. Feel free to decimate them. I have made peace with the idea that I'm fighting a liberal majority. My views will rarely be accepted, and naturally, few people vote without bias.

So for what's it worth, you have a good point. Don't expect me to take that with much grace after the crap I endured on the other debate comment section.
Posted by wiploc 5 years ago
wiploc
===continued===

Are you saying you misunderstood the setup? You expected him to argue first and assume the burden? Or to share the burden?

Neonix wrote:
: You claimed to be at a stand still.

Yes, it was a good debate, informative.

: It seems fishy that you would not have a definate answer on the topic...

It seems "fishy" that neither of you trounced the other?

: shift the burden of proof to me and then declare him winner.

In a too-close-to-call debate, the one without the burden of proof _is_ the winner.

: Is this some sort of payback for a disagreement on another debate?

No, but thanks for asking. I prefer that to the promiscuous lies you were telling before.

I'd look forward to seeing you win one so I could vote for you, if you hadn't asked me to avoid your debates in future. I hope you'll do me the same favor and avoid mine.
Posted by wiploc 5 years ago
wiploc
Neonix wrote:
: All due respect, but pro started the debate and Pro made the assertion. It's his burden of proof.
: I think you got that wrong.

Thank you for your civil tone. Since you expressed this reservation, I've looked at it again. Here's what Pro wrote in his opening post:

Pro wrote:
: : The burden of proof will lie with Con to show that Mormons aren't Christians. I will respond to
: : any points Con brings up, and show that Mormon beliefs are indeed Christian. In this way, I will : : be playing a defensive, or apologetic role.

He set up the debate so that whoever accepted had the burden of proof. You accepted, agreeing to that term. And then you argued first.

So it seems to me reasonable to think you had the burden of proof. In fact, I don't see another available interpretation.

: If I made a claim that Baptists are the true religion...I'd have to prove it.

Right.

: He made the assertion that Mormons are Christians....he didn't prove it.

The title was "Mormons are Christians." And he wrote, "The resolution is 'Mormons are Christians'." So you'd think he was undertaking to prove that. But then he wrote

: : The burden of proof will lie with Con to show that Mormons aren't Christians. I will respond to
: : any points Con brings up, and show that Mormon beliefs are indeed Christian. In this way, I will
: : be playing a defensive, or apologetic role.
: :
: : There will be three rounds. Con will begin with arguments R1, and I will respond to R1 in R2.
: : This will continue, so Con will not be allowed to present arguments in R4, as we will have both
: : had 3 rounds.

So it's clear what his intent was. And you agreed to that.

It's true that he'd have done better to have made the title and resolution "Mormons are not Christians," and to have called himself Con. But his intent was still clear.

Are you saying you misunderstood the setup? You expected him to argue first and assume the burden? Or to share th
Posted by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
Interesting debate. Jaxson, if you are not tired of debating this topic yet, I'd like to have a go at it with you. Please let me know if you're interested.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Doulos1202 5 years ago
Doulos1202
JaxsonRaineNeonixTied
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Reasons for voting decision: solid points made by pro
Vote Placed by KeytarHero 5 years ago
KeytarHero
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Reasons for voting decision: Con accepted burden of proof and didn't meet it. Some of his arguments were simply irrelevant (such as the Mormon church is non-Christian because other Christian churches don't recognize it as Christian), and just didn't use very strong arguments (and the arguments he used were plausibly explained by Pro).
Vote Placed by wiploc 5 years ago
wiploc
JaxsonRaineNeonixTied
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by KRFournier 5 years ago
KRFournier
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Reasons for voting decision: While I think Pro is wrong, I felt like Con was getting very close but just barely missing the mark. So, convincing argument is a tie for me. I gave Pro conduct because Con was getting downright hostile in the comments and even posting additional evidence there. Pro had better formatting, so he gets spelling and grammar. Also, Con kept using sources the Pro explained (multiple times) wasn't considered proper Mormon theology. Con should have used other sources instead (comments don't count).
Vote Placed by Wandile 5 years ago
Wandile
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro miserably. Defends his position. He provides no substantial evidence for what he says and relies on opinionated interpretation. Con makes reference to explicit Biblical verses proving most of his assertions. As such Con provided the better arguments and thus he gets my vote. Great debate.