The Instigator
Austinator97
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Geogeer
Con (against)
Winning
29 Points

Mormons are Christians

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Geogeer
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/24/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 754 times Debate No: 55369
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (5)

 

Austinator97

Pro

Mormons are Christians. I'll post a better argument once I get a response
Geogeer

Con

Introduction

I thank Pro for the opportunity to debate this topic. I am looking forward to a lively debate.


Acceptance

As Pro is relatively new to the site he failed to specify the debate rules. However, in interest of fairness I will merely accept here in the first round and give the Pro the opportunity to present his reasons for why Mormons are Christians.


Conclusion

I await Pro's opening arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Austinator97

Pro

Ok who the freak needs rules. Hahaha. But anyways, there is literally no question whatsoever wether Mormons are Christians are not. How could you possibly even think for a second that the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints isn't of a Christian belief. Seriously?
Geogeer

Con

History

To properly understand what a Christian is we must return to those who termed the word, its acceptance and the early creeds.

1. Earliest use of the term Christian

The first recorded use of the word Christian was in Acts 11:26

And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

So we can clearly see that the term Christian has existed since apostolic times. Additionally, the apostles embraced the term as can be seen in other books of the bible:

1 Peter 4-15:16:
Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.


2. What is it to be a Christian

Christianity has two great creeds describing Christian beliefs, both of which were were formulated prior to the Canon of the Bible. The first is the Apostles Creed:[1]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.

The second creed is the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed was formulated at the council of Nicea (323AD) in response to the Arian Heresy. Arianism "denies that the Son is of oneessence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father, and therefore not like Him, or equal in dignity, or co-eternal, or within the real sphere of Deity." [2]

As such Christianity expanded on the Apostles Creed to define exactly what it means about God and gives an understanding of the Trinity [3]

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


The Canon of the Bible was canonized later in the 4th century. Thus, if you are going to admit that those who Canonized the Bible had maintained apostolic authority and protection against error by the Holy Spirit, you also have to admit that those who previously defined the Nicene Creed still maintained such authority and protection.

This puts Mormons in a very difficult position as they deny the Trinity, but acknowledge the validity of the Bible. Thus Mormonism is a variation of Arianism and thus a formal Christian heresy.

Muslims also believe in Jesus. Once again just not according to how Christians define him in the Creeds. As such anyone who proclaims a different Jesus than the one defined in the Creeds you are not a Christian, but something else that believes itself to be Christian.


Rebuttal

Pro's sole argument in the opening round was that since the Mormons have the name of Jesus Christ in their name, they are Christians.

This is an obvious logical fallacy. If I change my name to President Barack Obama, it does not make me President of the United States.

Mormonism idea of God is just as different from Christianity as Islam. I can show that Islam has great love for Mary [4] and yet I would not argue that this makes them Catholics. Likewise Mormonism is so divergent from Christianity that it is something else regardless of what it says.


Challenge

Now Pro is likely going to argue that Mormonism is the true Christianity and that everyone else has fallen away in the Great Apostasy. As such I request in advance that, if pro pursues this line of argument, Pro provide some details and describe exactly where the Great Apostasy started, where are the historical texts that show the instigator of the calamitous heresies or some text from the remaining true Christians attempting to refute the heresies of the Great Apostasy.


Conclusion

I have clearly shown that due to the insurmountable differences in the most fundamental and basic beliefs of Mormonism in comparison to Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism, that the term Christianity cannot be logically applied to Mormonism. Any faith whose beliefs are not in conformance with the two ancient creeds described herein are not Christian as these are the creeds that define the most fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith.

I look forward to Pro's next arguments.


[1] http://www.scborromeo.org...
[2] http://www.newadvent.org...
[3] http://www.catholic.org...
[4] http://www.faithstreet.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Austinator97

Pro

Ok I never argued if the word Christian appeared in the Bible or how long it has been around. Christianity is a Christ-centered belief. Look up the definition of Christian or Christianity. This isn't a hard problem to solve. Seriously I don't understand why you see us differently. Why do you feel it necessry to try and poke at our religion? Is there something about it that influences the way you make decisions? On a side note, do you support gay marriage, Muslims, or abortion? Those are completely random. I would just like to know your answer.
Geogeer

Con

Rebuttal

As Pro did not refute any of my previous contentions I will offer a brief rebuttal to his sole contention:

Look up the definition of Christian or Christianity.

Christianity: the Christian religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches. [1]

Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants all believe in the Trinity. While they may disagree on certain specific items (a completely different debate) they are in conformance with certain basic principles. Mormons are not Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants.

Catholics believe they are the Barque of Peter on the ocean. The Orthodox stand at the other end of the boat and believe they are the boat. The protestants believe the boat had a lot of barnacles, but that they cleaned it off. Mormons said that the boat sank and that God built a new one.

Christian: a member of a Christian Church or denomination [2]

As we have seen above in Round 2, the Mormon Church is not a Christian Church because they do not profess Jesus Christ to be who other Christian Churches profess Him to be.

As I noted in the previous round, Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. They however view him differently. Sikhs may view Jesus as a prophet or a Guru. That does not make them Christians because they view Jesus differently. Likewise Mormonism sounds very similar to Chrisitanity to one with untrained ears. For those who understand Christianity it is like the sound of a chainsaw in an orchestra. It does not fit because it is not the same thing.


[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
[2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...


Non Debate Related

I ask any Judges to only take the comments up to and including my sources in term of Judging. What is posted here is for the sole benefit of my young but worthy opponent.

Seriously I don't understand why you see us differently. Why do you feel it necessry to try and poke at our religion?

First of all you issued the debate. As such we are supposed to debate the topic. In that sense it is nothing personal. It is just what one does on a debate site.

At the same time I only choose to debate that which I believe to be true. I believe Mormonism to be a completely fabricated religion. The Book of Mormon has obvious factual errors. It can be shown by that the quotes from the bible in the Book of Mormon were not given by God, but were lifted from the King James Bible. I say this because they contain the same translation errors.

If Joseph Smith was made an Apostle by God, where were his miracles?

Is there something about it that influences the way you make decisions?

Yes there is. It is false and denies the true nature of Jesus Christ. Mormon doctrine cannot be historically upheld when comparing it with the historical writings of the Church Fathers. It is contrary to scripture and is logically unsound. That is my complaint with the religion and not the people. Many mormons are fine people, but their faith is in error.

On a side note, do you support gay marriage, Muslims, or abortion?

No. I support Muslims, but not their faith. There is no faith more Pro-Life than Catholicism.
Debate Round No. 3
Austinator97

Pro

I don't care to debate with someone who is going to make silly points wht no real depth so I will be forfeiting the next rounds. Not because I don't have a rebuttal, rather, I don't care to fight online with someone
Geogeer

Con

Arguments extended.
Debate Round No. 4
Austinator97

Pro

Austinator97 forfeited this round.
Geogeer

Con

Arguments extended. Thank-you for the debate.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
it was clear. He wanted a different argument. He later admitted it was clear when I refused to change it. My postion was clear from the start and remained consistent throughout. The guy said in comments in other places that he wished he had never accepted the debate, it was not what he wanted. He wanted to argue pascals wager can be a good bet or not be a good bet or something like that, he wanted me to take a position different than what I clearly stated was my postion in the title of the debate. he made no indication he was accecpting my debate challenge in round 1 as he should have. Untill he agreed to take the opposing postion and stopped asking me to change the debate, we had no debate. It was bad conduct on his part. He should have posted in comments that he was not clear on my postion before he accetpted the debate challenge, not make me waste one of my rounds by declining his offer to change the debate. You are being biased against me in your assessment. He was unclear in his behaviour in round 1, it was bad conduct. He accused me of being unclear when I was not, if he was unclear about my postion he should have asked for clarity in the comments before he accepted the challenge. His round one comments belonged in the comments section, not in the debate.
Posted by Geogeer 2 years ago
Geogeer
He didn't ask you to change it he asked you to clarify and was giving you the option of changing if you wanted. If you had spent the second round clarifying your statement and making your argument there wouldn't have been any problem. I think you made a good try, but I don't think it was truly defensible from the start.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Wylted should not have accepted the debate.....he asked me to change the debate from the start. Now you can see my basic argument in the debate.......I'm not sure I want to do that debate again after I gave away my argument......it's really a simple argument.
Posted by Geogeer 2 years ago
Geogeer
If Wylted disappoints, I'll entertain it.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
why not take me up on Pascal's Wager? I'll start a new one since the current challenger seems to be too confused to put up an arguement. You can argue the Con Position "Pascal's Wager is NOT always a losing bet and I will argue "Pascal's Wager IS always a losing bet"........and no personal attacks like "you have a problem" We all have some kind of problem, young man. Don't put yourself on a pedastal please, casting insults down on me from your loft. I want a civil debate based on logic, not attacks on character or personality.
Posted by Geogeer 2 years ago
Geogeer
@ LMGIG - I will debate you soon. Don't worry.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Mormonism is a christian belief as much as catholicism is a christian belief. Both religions are idolatrous and both religions incorparate a tailored version of Jesus Christ who is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible but is subservient to idols peculiar to each religion.
Posted by Geogeer 2 years ago
Geogeer
Thanks to doomswatter for taking the time to vote on this debate.
Posted by Geogeer 2 years ago
Geogeer
It is sad because I intentionally left the dictionary definition open for him to have a chance. I didn't know how I was going to go about refuting it, but I figured I had several rounds to do so. Oh well.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
You're welcome. I always think it's funny when somebody sets up a debate that can only work as a semantics debate and then gets upset when you don't use their preferred definition.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by philochristos 2 years ago
philochristos
Austinator97GeogeerTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro threw in the towel.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Austinator97GeogeerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by doomswatter 2 years ago
doomswatter
Austinator97GeogeerTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was here to make a statement rather than debate a resolution. Pro tried to make things personal and called Con's arguments silly, although they were nothing of the sort, so Con gets conduct. Pro had no real arguments and no sources.
Vote Placed by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Austinator97GeogeerTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's offered very little in terms of arguments and folded to arguments with depth. Con was the only one to use sources and conduct goes to con for the forfeit and also because pro feigned being offended. The emotional cry baby response has no place in debate.
Vote Placed by ESocialBookworm 2 years ago
ESocialBookworm
Austinator97GeogeerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct FF, Arguments: Geogeer made WAY better, well-sourced arguments and Pro asked off-topic questions during the debate.