The Instigator
Nyg
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
ConservativePolitico
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Mormons

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Post Voting Period
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after 3 votes the winner is...
ConservativePolitico
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/28/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,439 times Debate No: 23248
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (3)

 

Nyg

Pro

The Book of Mormon is the word of God along with the Bible
ConservativePolitico

Con

The book of Mormon cannot be the Word of God because it directly contradicts the Bible on multiple levels. The book of Mormon cannot be of the Bible and say they are Christians when their dogma completely goes against things of the Christian Bible.

Here is a table that proves this point emphatically.




One God

Plural Gods

Book of Mormon: Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27 Testimony of the three witnesses

Doctrine and Covenants: Section 121:32; 132:18-20, 37

God is a Spirit

God Has a Body

B. of M. - Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11

D. & C. - Section 130:22

God Dwells in Heart

God Does Not Dwell in Heart

B. of M. - Alma 34:36

D. & C. - Section 130:3

Creation - One God

Creation - Plural Gods

B. of M. - 2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9 Pearl of Great Price - Moses, Chapter 2

Book of Abraham - Chapters 4 and 5

God Cannot Lie

God Commands Lying

B. of M. - Ether 3:12; 2 Nephi 9:34

P.G.P. - Book of Abraham 2:22-25

God's Word Unchangeable

God's Word Can Change

B. of M. - Alma 41:8

D. & C. - Section 56:4-5

No Pre-Existence of Man

Man Pre-Existed

B. of M. - Jacob 4:9; Alma 18:28, 34-36

D. & C. - Section 93:23, 29-33 P.G.P. - Bk of Abraham 3:18, 21-23

Death Seals Man's Fate

Chance After Death

B. of M. - Mosiah 2:36-39; Alma 34:32-35

D. & C. - Section 76:106-112; 88:99

Heathen Saved Without Baptism

Baptism for Dead

B. of M. - Moroni 8:22-23 2 Nephi 9:25-26; Mosiah 15:24-27

D. & C. - Section 128:5, 17-18

Heaven or Hell

Three Kingdoms in Heaven - Most Saved

B. of M. - 2 Nephi 28:22; 1 Nephi 15:35; Most SavedMosiah 16:11, 27:31; Alma 41:4-8, 42:16

D. & C. - Section 76:43, 70-112

Murder Can Be Forgiven

No Forgiveness For Murder

B. of M.- 3 Nephi 30:2

D. & C. - Section 42:18

Polygamy Condemned

Polygamy Commanded

B. of M. - Jacob 1:15, 2:24, 3:5; Mosiah 11:2

D. & C. - Section 132:1, 37-39, 61

2 Nephi 26:31; Mosiah 27:5

D. & C. - Section 42:71-73; 43:12-13; 51:13-14

B. of M. - Mormon 8:32

D. & C. - Section 64:23

Adam in America

Adam in Old World

D. & C. - Section 107:53; 116; 117:8

P.G.P. - Book of Moses 3:8, 10-15

The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible!

Bible

Book of Mormon

Church began in 33 AD Mt 16:18 Acts 2

church began in 147BC, Mosiah 18:17

"disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" 40AD, Acts 11:26

Alma 46:13-16 supposedly written in 73BC refers to Nephites as Christians.

Jesus is only head of church Col 1:18

Joe Smith is head of Mormon church D&C 28:2-6

"Jesus was born in Bethlehem" Mt 2:1 + Mt 21:17

"He shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10

3 hours of darkness at crucifixion Lk 23:44

3 Days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27

God is spirit without flesh &bones Jn 4:24; Lk 24:39

God has flesh and bones like man: D&C 130:22

Terminology Differences

by Sandra Tanner

Pre-Existence

LDS - teach that everyone pre-existed - we all exist eternally.

Bible - Only Christ pre-existed - not man. (John 8:58; Col 1:17) We didn't have a spiritual existence prior to earth. (I Cor 15:46)

Fall [Of Man]

LDS - teach it brought mortality and physical death - not fallen nature - believe Adam was given two conflicting commandments and was supposed to fall.

Bible - God tempts no one. (James 1:13-14). Man is basically sinful. (Rom. 8:5-8; I Cor 2:14)

Sin

LDS - Specific acts - not man's basic nature.

Bible - We are in spiritual rebellion until conversion. (Eph 2:3; Rom 5:6). We do not just commit sins - we are basically sinful. (Matt 1:21)

Repentance

LDS - Repent of individual acts - not sinful nature.

Bible - Must repent of basic rebellion. (Jer. 17:9; Luke 5:32)

Atonement - Salvation By Grace

LDS - believe Christ's death brought release from grave and universal resurrection - Salvation by grace is universal resurrection - beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven.

Bible - Salvation is not universal but based on belief of each individual. (Rom 1:16; Heb 9:28; Eph 2:8-9)

Redeemed

LDS - from mortal death only - not sinful rebellion or spiritual death.

Bible - Christ redeems from more than mortal death - redeems us from spiritual death. (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:1)

Gospel

LDS - Mormon Church system and doctrines.

Bible - Message of Christ's death and resurrection as atonement for our sins. (I Cor 15:1-4; Gal 1:8)

Born Again

LDS - Baptism into LDS Church.

Bible - We are spiritually dead until our spiritual rebirth. (I Pet 1:23; II Cor 5:17)

True Church

LDS - Only Mormon Church - true church taken from earth until Joseph Smith restored it.

Bible - As a born-again Christian, we are part of God's Church. (I Cor 12:12-14; Matt 18:19-20; Matt 16:18)

Authority - Priesthood

LDS - believe only LDS have authority to baptize, ordain, etc - have two-part system of priesthood - Melchizedek and Aaronic.

Bible - Christ brought end to Aaronic priesthood and is the ONLY High Priest after manner of Melchizedek. (Heb 5:9; II Tim 2:2)

Baptism

LDS - Must be performed by LDS priesthood.

Bible - Emphasis is on Believer - not priesthood authority. (Mark 16:15-16)

Sons Of God

LDS - We are all literal spirit children of God.

Bible - We become a child of God at conversion. (I John 1:12)

Eternal Life

LDS - Exaltation in Celestial Kingdom - ability to bear children in heaven - must have a Temple Marriage.

Bible - Not limited to certain ones in heaven - no mention of parenthood or temple marriage but is given to ALL Christians. (I John 5:12-13)

Immortality

LDS - Universal gift - ability to live forever but not Eternal Life.

Bible - Makes no distinction between immortality and eternal life. (II Tim 1:10)

Heaven

LDS - Divided into three kingdoms - Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial - place for almost everyone (misuse of I Cor 15:40-41)

Bible - Only mentions two conditions - everlasting punishment or life eternal. (Matt. 25:31- 46)

Kingdom Of God

LDS - Means Celestial Kingdom - only those in Celestial Kingdom are in God's presence. Those in Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms aren't in presence of Father.

Bible - All redeemed will be in God's presence. (Rev. 21:1-3). All believers are part of Kingdom. (Matt. 13:41-43)

Hell

LDS - Hell as an institution is eternal - inmates come and go as in jail - don't spend eternity there - stay until one has paid debt to God.

Bible - No mention of people getting out of Hell. (Rev. 21:8; Matt 13:24-43 and 47-50; Luke 16:26)

Godhead

LDS - Father God is a resurrected man with physical body, Christ is a separate resurrected man with physical body. Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body - 3 totally separate Gods.

Bible - God not a man. (Num 23:19). Only one God. (Isa 43:10-11; 44:6; 45:21-22). Father is Spirit and Invisible (John 4:24; I Tim 1:17)

Holy Ghost

LDS - Is a separate God from Father and Son - different from Holy Spirit - Holy Ghost is a person - Holy Spirit is influence from Father and not personal.

Bible - Same Greek word used for Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit (I Cor 3:16 and 6:19).

Virgin Birth

LDS - believe God, as a resurrected, physical man, is literal Father of Jesus - same manner in which men are conceived on earth - believe Matt 1:18 in error.

Bible - says Mary was ". . . with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matt 1:18)


Taken from: http://www.bible.ca...
Debate Round No. 1
Nyg

Pro

Argument
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become aone in thine hand.

Stick of joseph = Book of Mormon; Stick of Judah = Bible

3 Nephi 15:17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The other sheep Christ refers to are the people in the Americas and the people in Jerusalem

2 Nephi 29:7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Rebuttal
1. Plural Gods vrs One God: Mormons believe in one God as their eternal father in heaven; However we are all able to become like our Father in heaven. That is our our reason for existence here on the earth Genesis 3:22 Man has become as one of us to know good and evil.

2. God is a spirit vrs God has a body: God has body of flesh and bones and a spirit when the book of Mormon says the spirit of the lord dwells in the hearts it is referring to the holy ghost which is part of the God head.

3. God dwells in the heart vrs doesn't dwell in the heart: when the book of Mormon says the spirit of the lord dwells in the hearts it is referring to the holy ghost which is part of the God head.

4. Creation: Jesus Christ, acting under the direction of the father, was and is the creator of all things ( D&C 38:1-4; 76: 22-24; John 1: 1-3; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:1-3; Moses 1; 2; 3. That he was aided by " many of the noble and great spirit children of the father is evident from Abraham's writings.

5. Didn't God command Adam and eve to multiply and replenish the earth? This would require them to break his commandment and partake of the forbidden fruit surely God had a purpose for giving two contradicting commands. We are to obey the lesser of two evils to bring about Gods purposes Mosiah 4:9 ( Man doth not comprehend all the things that God doth comprehend); The Sixth commandment God Commanded thou shalt not kill. God enabled and inspired David to kill Goliath.

6. D&C 82: 10 "I, the lord am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." Gods covenants and promises will all be fulfilled. God provides a way for the present. He gives us commandments to help us through our day here and now. That is why it is necessary to have a prophet. Amos 3:7 surely the lord god will do nothing but he revealth his secrets unto the prophets

7. preexistence of man: Man did not have a body in the preexistence. That doesn't mean we didn't exist. We were spirit sons and daughters of God. Our purpose of coming to earth was to gain a physical body.

8. Every living soul who has lived, lives, and will live will have the equal chance to hear the word of God. There is a time after death that every man who has not had the opportunity to receive the word of God will have an equal chance. 2 Nephi 2:27

9. Babtism with vrs without: Jesus Himself, though without sin, was baptized to fulfill all righteousness and to show the way for all mankind (see Matthew 3:13-17; 2 Nephi 31:5-12). Thus, baptism is essential for salvation in the kingdom of God. We learn in the New Testament that baptisms for the dead were done during the Apostle Paul's time (see 1 Corinthians 15:29). This practice has been restored with the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith first taught about the ordinance of baptism for the dead during a funeral sermon in August 1840. He read much of 1 Corinthians 15, including verse 29, and announced that the Lord would permit Church members to be baptized in behalf of their friends and relatives who had departed this life. He told them "the plan of salvation was calculated to save all who were willing to obey the requirements of the law of God" (Journal History of the Church, 15 Aug. 1840).
- www.mormon.org

10: heaven and hell vrs kingdoms of glory: A person is destined for one of 4 places depending on what he has done or what he has believed. These are: outer darkness (for Satan, his demons, and extremely wicked people) or one of three "kingdoms" known as the telestial, terrestrial or celestial kingdoms. They are often categorized as Hell, being outer darkness and heaven being the three other glories. This parallels with Pauls mentioning of the three glories in (1 Corinthians 15: 40-42)

11. Murder Forgiven vrs not forgiven: Didn't God command Adam and eve to multiply and replenish the earth? This would require them to break his commandment and partake of the forbidden fruit surely God had a purpose for giving two contradicting commands. We are to obey the lesser of two evils to bring about Gods purposes Mosiah 4:9 ( Man doth not comprehend all the things that God doth comprehend); The Sixth commandment God Commanded thou shalt not kill. God enabled and inspired David to kill Goliath.

12. At various times, the Lord has commanded His people to practice plural marriage. For example, He gave this command to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon (Doctrine and Covenants 132:1). At other times the Lord has given other instructions. In the Book of Mormon, the Lord told the prophet Jacob "for there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife: and concubines he shall have none.. for if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:27-30).

In this dispensation, the Lord commanded some of the early Saints to practice plural marriage. The Prophet Joseph Smith and those closest to him, including Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, were challenged by this command, but they obeyed it. Church leaders regulated the practice. Those entering into it had to be authorized, and the marriages had to be performed through the sealing power of the priesthood. In 1890, President Wilford Woodruff received a revelation that the leaders of the Church should cease teaching the practice of plural marriage (Official Declaration 1).

13. Adam in America vrs Adam in the new world: In the area of Eden and Adam-ondi-Ahman there were rivers and lands that recieved names that were later attatched to other lands and rivers. As to the location of Eden and its environs, see D&C 117:8-9. Gen. 2:13

Book of Mormon and the Bible

The First two contradictions are invalid. The Book of Mormon is another witness that Jesus is the Christ. It is a record of the people in America. The arguments made are referring to the people at Jerusalem. It is a record of different people so dates and names are irrelevant.

Jesus Christ vs Joseph Smith: When Christ left Prophets were to stand in his place to guide the church and that is exactly what is meant when a prophet is refereed to as the cornerstone

Jesus born in Bethlehem vrs Jerusalem: The Book of Mormon does not claim that Jesus was born "in" jerusalem. It says that he was born "at" Jerusalem. This is important because the word "at", according to most, if not all, english dictionaries, not only means "in", but also "nearby", "within the vicinity of" and even "toward". Bethlehem is only six miles from Jerusalem, which is certainly "nearby" to someone thousands of miles away in the Americas.
Certainly the Lord could have revealed the name of the town of Bethlehem, but it would not have mean
ConservativePolitico

Con

Sick of Joseph = Book of Mormon... How exactly? Where are you getting this conclusion from?

The other "sheep" referenced could refer to anything you want it to mean because its vague. I can say those sheep are space aliens but that doesn't make it true.

Negations

N1) We cannot become like God. No one is like God. There is one mediator between GOD and MEN, we need a mediator because equality with God is something that can never be grasped.

N2) God has no body of flesh and bone. He has never manifest himself in the physical realm in the form of a man save through Jesus Christ. God the Father has no Earthly body and there is no evidence suggesting so.

N3) I believe in the Holy Ghost.

N4) At the time of Creation Jesus was the Word of God and thus came straight from God's mouth to create and was not a seperate being. Three in one yet the one is still just a single God.

N5) The law says thou shalt not MURDER not KILL. There is a distinct line between innocent killing and cold blooded murder. The original Hebrew portrays the word murder not kill. Also, what does multiplying have to do with original sin? The forbidden fruit didn't cause sexual reproduction. Animals, who are said to be largely without sin, multiply all the time. This is something that doesn't connect.

N6) Jesus was the last "prophet". After his mission and his message there was no need for prophets because he is now the sole mediator between God and men. Prophets after Jesus are obsolete.

N7) Yet how could we have existed before creation? Man was created during creation at the very beginning. How could we have existed when it says there was nothing in pre-existence save for the spirit of God and the deep and still waters of the void. We did not pre-exist because that contradicts the Creation story. Man was FIRST CREATED on the Sixth Day of Creation. Not before.

N8) This comes from the Book of Mormon which is the source in which we are debating. You cannot quote the disputed work and expect me to take it at full credibility. It says nothing of this in the Bible and therefore holds no weight.

N9) At the death of Jesus he is found next to two criminals. One of the criminals says that Jesus is a blessed man who doesn't deserve to die and asks to be remembered by Christ in death and Christ says "surely today you will be with me in paradise", this man was not baptised while hanging on the cross on the verge of death. If you believe in Christ and call him Lord you will be saved. It says that multiple mutliple times in the gospel while the stuff about baptism is implied or shown; this is said directly.

N10) This is taken out of context.

"When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor."

The verses in question are merely used as an example of how similar things can differ and in no way pertain to heaven or the afterlife. This is an interpretation taken out of context.

N11) See N5, repeated...

N12) There is nothing in there about plural marriage. Again this is a misinterpretation of scripture. That verse says nothing about polygamy. He never told David to practice plural marriage, that is ludicrous. Jesus says if you MUST have a wife to have ONE and it is actually better to have NONE and give your whole self to the Lord.

I don't count Smith to a prophet or messanger of God so that doesn't pertain to me. He had nothing but his own word to go on and interpretations of old text.

N13) Eden is in Iraq. That is the original location of the garden and says nothing about America or the people there. Nothing at all. Again, vague interpretations and shadey wording to convey a point that isn't there.

Jesus Christ was the last prophet. After him there is no need for messangers from God because the last message was delivered. Repent, love and believe and you'll be saved. That was the last message from God. The prophets were obsolete because God now communicates through the Church and through Christ.

However, other scriptures say Bethlehem yet I can see how this could be seen as a mere misinterpretation or miscommunication of "at" vs. "in" Jerusalem.
Debate Round No. 2
Nyg

Pro

Stick of Joseph = the Book of Mormon: The Tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, Josephs children, were among the ten tribes of the Northern kingdom of Israel. One part of Josephs decedents came to america in 600 B.C. The records of their doings is known as the Book of Mormon hence it is the stick of Ephraim or Joseph. The Book of Mormon and the stick of Judah (the Bible) form a unified testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, his resurrection, and his divine work among these two segments of the house of Israel.
A branch of Ephraim will be broken off and will write another testament of Christ, JST, Gen. 50:24-26, 30-31
The stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph will become one, Ezek. 37:15-19
The writings of Judah and of Joseph shall grow together, 2 Ne. 3:12
The Lord speaks to many nations, 2 Ne. 29
The keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim were committed to Moroni,
If the Book of Mormon is true then the Mormon church is true. The only way to really know is to read the book yourself and take Moroni's promise at the end of the book
Moroni 10: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
If the Book of Mormon is true then the Mormon church is true.
The only way to really know is to read the book yourself and take Moroni's promise at the end of the book
Moroni 10: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
ConservativePolitico

Con

In Conclusion

Again, in your last argument you posted no sources so how can I take any of your interpretations to be accurate or true? You again, have posted scripture from the very book you're trying to defend. You can't source the thing you're defending as a source of it's own defense.

You have dropped numerous numerous points I have made leaving many arguments undefended.

For example, you never explained how the Book of Mormon is the Stick of Joseph. You have nothing to support this except for your own understanding and some vague Mormon verses.

So, in conclusion, since you had the burden of proof in defending Mormonism I feel as if you have not successfully fulfilled this burden.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Nyg 4 years ago
Nyg
If the Book of Mormon is true then the Mormon church is true. The only way to really know is to read the book yourself and take Moroni's promise at the end of the book
Moroni 10: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by badbob 4 years ago
badbob
NygConservativePoliticoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro used bible verses to make some good arguments.
Vote Placed by CalvinAndHobbes 4 years ago
CalvinAndHobbes
NygConservativePoliticoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Ignoring the borderline spamming, there is no way to interpret this debate other than a win for Politico.
Vote Placed by Travniki 4 years ago
Travniki
NygConservativePoliticoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Nyg tried to prove that the Book of Mormon was in cahoots with the bible by using the book of Mormon