The Instigator
waterscalming
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TheKryken
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Most Christian denominations are Psuedo christian, or Athiestic Christian churches

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/6/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 282 times Debate No: 83542
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

waterscalming

Pro

Most churches, most church denominations and most preachers, teachers and likewise are afraid to even openly practice the faith of laying of hands for deliverance of spirits/demons, sicknesses and illnessses due to the liberal media portraying all churches who practice and conduct this manner to be all fake, greedy, or great actors with no real effect of evidence for the faith that they claim they practice.

As well it is stated and obviously known that most churches who are openly known for this practice are doing it in such vanity and obscenity that these type of churches i would state wolves in sheep clothing are the key culprits of why such christian orientated practice has been discouraged, stopped and argued against time and time over for stopping any such practice anywhere near what it should be going on and doing today.

These circumstances and failed ability to properly weed out the fake, the villaineous, the vanity and the obscure have produced a fearful spiritual phenomena where spirits and demons feel free to roam around on this earth, especially in a spiritual church setting where the church leadership would much quicker in nature prefer to turn to man's understanding of psychiatric treatment of medicine and eletrical or any other man-made concepts versus turning to the scriptures directly for the HOLY SPIRIT's guidance and direction of what to do for resolution of the problem.

And regarding the Holy Spirit? It is just a figment of your imagination that was set-up but no longer valid today, because today's churches can't speak of demons and spirits taking place today without acknowledging the Holy Spirit... and the requirement of healing and deliverance from anything evil in the sight of GOD.

If churches actually did believe such things you would see all Churches (without exception) practice and openly offer to do laying of Hands for healing and deliverance like this website's organization https://flames-of-fire.org...... and more written testimonials like this https://flames-of-fire.org...... going on world-wide without accepting the simple, its all scientific anyways, or its just circumstantial because of some situation you don't understand and similiar type psuedo christian arguements.

Churches really are nothing more than for the majority portion, Athiestic, or psuedo christians growing, creating and harboring more of the same from their leadership that is growing because it is easier to grow when churches do not have the Holy Spirit moving inside of them for healing and deliverance of spirits and demons. For everyone who doesn't acknowledge JESUS CHRIST already has a diety of power in them, and if they can control the powers that JESUS CHRIST really has to offer then they can limit their potential to be required to leave the souls they possess.

Feel free to leave comments in the comment portion as well if you'd like more clarification.
TheKryken

Con

I accept this debate.

This round, I will simply provide definitions, since Pro has not done so. Next round, I would like to see some sources for Pro's argument.

Christian: "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"* Or, biblically speaking, "If you profess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9

Atheist: "a person who believes that God does not exist"*

Believe: "1 a : to have a firm religious faith
b : to accept something as true, genuine, or real"* <--- I will be using this definition for the purposes of this debate, as it can also apply to atheists in this case.

Pseudo: "Not real or genuine"*

I will summarize Pro's argument like this: Since many churches do not practice acts such as laying of hands for healing, they are not genuinely Christian in nature. Pro states, "If churches actually did believe such things you would see all Churches (without exception) practice and openly offer to do laying of Hands for healing and deliverance..."

Yet Pro has not stated how these acts confirm how a church is "Christian in nature".

There is no scripture that states that the spiritual gift of healing is proof of belief in Christ. Certainly, if churches do perform genuine healing, without fraud or pomp and circumstance, then it is likely that they do have a true belief in Christ.

Pro makes a statement that is quite prideful, and completely overrides the true nature of the Holy Spirit. "... and if they can control the powers that JESUS CHRIST really has to offer..." We are not meant to control the power of the Holy Spirit; we are to let him work through us in order to perform good works. Pro's words are eerily reminiscent of Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8, who desired to have the power that Phillip possessed. He was told to repent of his wickedness and pray for forgiveness.

That's all for now. I will wait for Pro to provide sources, as well as genuine reasoning for his claims.

I look forward to an interesting debate!

*All definitions are from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary. All verses are from Bible Gateway.
Debate Round No. 1
waterscalming

Pro

I will recommend my statements and definitions to this previous debate I had with who I understand said he was an Atheist.

http://www.debate.org...

Perhaps you can explain to me how me saying such things are to be that of Simon. For I do not think or believe most Churches/Denominations or Christians understand the words I speak. For I have to inquire to you, Acts chapter 8 said that Simon's heart was not right. Not anything else, if anything it implies that if Simon's heart was right He WOULD HAVE BEEN POTENTIAL TO RECEIVE THE ABILITIES HE ASKED.

Do you not understand Mark Chapter 9?

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mar 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

John even testified of seeing someone (they did not know) doing the same as them). So you Telling me I am prideful, perhaps in reality you need to take a closer look to understand what you are saying, and who has been saying this to you the entire time of your life as one if you claim to be a follower of JESUS CHRIST either in name, or in SPIRIT.

I pray that you may see the pain I feel inside, and the reason why I am presenting this debate.

The pain is not a physical pain of emotion. But more of a spiritual anguish and pain that I see the churches/denominations and christians acting today.

Tell, me how do you interpret 1 Corinthians 12 verses 4-11? 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b]

Have you considered what Ephesians Chapter 5 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Talk about?

What are these acts of the flesh, I notice people always talking about fruits of the spirit, but ignore how to identify the fruits of the flesh and what to do about identifying them.

If you are unwilling to seek after Luke Chapter 18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, "Grant me justice against my adversary."

4 "For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, "Even though I don"t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won"t eventually come and attack me!""

6 And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" referencing for the Judge and the widow and how one should be such way with their persistent request for justice (requests) and Daniel Chapter 10 12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."

Do you think the ULTIMATE JUDGE would leave HIS FLOCK unattended if someone in a church prayed for such gifts to be provided to HIS SHEEP?

This is not about my personal pride. This is not about my own personal wants, this is about scriptural accuracy being taken place in the church today and what has been deviated from because they *the blind sheep* are too ignorant from not seeking for the HOLY SPIRIT's guidance on such things to be and do.

But the reason why the blind sheep are so ignorant is because their food has been poisoned over the years from the pollution SATAN has inspired to be taught inside of each and every denomination, and lead division.

For tell me, DO YOU SINCERELY BELIEVE DENOMINATIONS FIGHTING, BICKERING AND ARGUING showing variance and disagreement is following the HOLY SPIRIT who is to be showing unity?

Think carefully, for if you say you do believe denominations are following the Holy Spirit, Why do denominational churches need a separate name other than a location's or specific block's address name?

The more variance there are to Christ's church, the more discontent people are because of all the choices, and the questions of why are there so many different names, who's practice is better, what makes each one so different, what options do each denominational church offer, who's the best at...

Yes, okay you got me (sike) the churches are all identical, they all teach of the Holy Spirit to each and every child inside of the Sunday School are taught who the Holy Spirit is and identifies how to listen and understand who or what the movement of the Holy Spirit is.

Scriptures are not talking of the Holy Spirit and identification of the Holy Spirit in the new testament, I must be nuts and off my rockers right?

Explain why I am not nuts... explain to me how I am not understanding the scriptures properly.

Where does the scripture not talk of spirits and demons and the understanding from the Holy Spirit all throughout the new Testament and referring to the Old Testament for directional guidance and influence everywhere?

Tell me how The churches being talked about are not of a spiritual force to control, change and power the lands and individual organizations seeking or choosing not to Follow the HOLY SPIRIT?

Tell me how I am mistaken, tell me how I am falsifying everything the church (do you see denominations referenced, or just church locations am I confused and mistaken?) I need some insight to your academic of church history the Atheist attempted to explain to me which I simply tore down his basketball court for playing ball in with the topic he set-up.

Tell me, how are Denominations even FOLLOWING CHRIST FOR MAKING SEPARATE NAMES!

BUT THEY'RE SEEKING JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR HOLY SPIRIT OF INFLUENCE? LIES! VIPERS! WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHING!

Show me your healing, show me your speaking of tongues, show me your prophecies, show me your deliverance.

Yes, even the anti-christ and those who do not seek after JESUS CHRIST will do such things I speak, but that doesn't mean to stop practicing does it?

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Explain how there are not vipers, explain no wolves, explain.. I want to see this black and white no ifs ands ors buts...
TheKryken

Con

In your first argument, you claimed that "If churches actually did believe such things you would see all Churches (without exception) practice and openly offer to do laying of Hands for healing and deliverance..."

This is the point of contention. You are saying that because churches do not practice healing, they do not truly believe in Christ.

You then brought up 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (I will address Mark 9 later). This passage is actually what I believe my argument is based on. "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is it the same God at work."

If this is true, then there is not just one way to exemplify belief in Christ. Healing is good, and from God, but he does not give it to everyone. "Even so, the body is not made up of one part, but of many." Though a church that performs healing is good, it is not the only way for a church to devote itself to God. In Acts 2, it says this about the early church: "They devoted themselves to the apostle's teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many signs and wonders performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

The main features of the early church were:
-devotion to teaching/learning
-fellowship
-prayer
-being filled with awe
-signs and wonders performed by apostles (it is a piece of it, but it is not the defining feature)
-being in communion with each other
-charity
-praising God

Churches who follow this example are certainly not atheist, and if they are praising God and devoting themselves to knowing Him, then they are not pseudo-Christian.

I fully agree, there are some who talk about the fruits of the spirit, but do not practice them. However, I would not say that it is "most churches". Also, the fruits of the Spirit are not inherently miraculous, in the way that healing, prophesy, and tongues are. They cannot be accurately judged from the outside; only God can see the true heart. I am not against healing, or prophesy, or tongues. My parents had a missionary experience in Africa during which they spoke in tongues. However, they no longer do. Is that because they are pseudo-Christians? No, it is because God chooses where and when to show his power, so that He may be glorified, but not so that those who perform such works will become prideful.

I believe denominations are necessary; not necessarily right, but necessary due to our human nature. I wish whole-heartedly that we could exist as one fully unified Church with no separations. However, that could only happen in a world where every person knows everything. I'll use this example as just one situation where denominations can actually reduce conflict.

Jason is "non-denominational", but he does not believe in infant baptism. Lucy is also, "non-denominational" but does believe in infant baptism. They get together, fall in love, and get married. During this time, they are both dedicated to loving everyone, following God, and generally being good Christians without being worried about the fine points of their faith. Infant baptism never comes up. Then, Jason and Lucy have a child. Lucy just assumes that they will have the child baptized, because they have never discussed the issue at all. Jason did not even consider infant baptism until this moment, and suddenly, there is a lot of strife. Had they just been willing to say, "I ascribe to mostly Baptist beliefs," or "I ascribe to primarily Lutheran doctrine," this issue could have been foreseen for a long time.

Scriptures most certainly are talking about the Holy Spirit. I never said they did not. I said that simply because churches do not perform miracles does not mean they are not Christian. If they profess faith and truly believe, then they are Christian, and the fruits of the Spirit, such as love and joy, will result from that.

Take the thief on the cross. Was he a Christian? Most certainly, for Jesus specifically told him that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise. Yet he performed no miracles, the Holy Spirit did not flow out of him to others, and he really did not even show the fruits of the Spirit.

"Where does the scripture not talk of spirits and demons and the understanding from the Holy Spirit all throughout the new Testament and referring to the Old Testament for directional guidance and influence everywhere?"
I'm not sure what the point of this is, or how it relates to most churches being atheist/fake.

I wish separate names were unnecessary. However, since not all truth has been revealed to us, there will be differences. They should not cause aggressive division, but they should be addressed (as we are doing now). For it is pleasing to God that we should desire to know truth. Take the example of the Bereans in Acts 17. It says they were of noble character, because they examined the scriptures and sought to know truth. Denominations help us do so, because we can more easily discern what is true and what is false. If we were to eliminate them, you could have one person who believes that Jesus was simply a great prophet standing next to another who understands the Incarnation, and they may not even realize it or try to correct it.

You are trying to make it black and white now, but you did not start off that way. Certainly, there are some vipers, some liars. Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel is an example. But there are many churches who quietly go upon loving the Lord and obeying Him. I never said there were no wolves. I'm claiming that it is incorrect, (and even arrogant) to say that "most churches are false." Why arrogant? Because you are claiming to know what only God can know --- the condition of the heart. This claim also seems to exclude churches outside of America. The church in China is burning with fervor for God [1]. Christians persecuted by ISIS are on fire for the Lord, but they do not perform healing or miracles.

Okay, back to Mark 9. I honestly saved this for last because I was not at all sure what you intention was in quoting it. And I'm still unsure. I don't believe I said that we should stop people from driving out demons; I said that it was not necessary to do so if you believe in Christ. In fact, the section you quoted specifically says, "anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward." Miracles, tongues, prophesy --- these things are wonderful works of the Holy Spirit, but they are not a prerequisite for being a true Christian.

I am with in your spiritual anguish about how some Christians act. It is frustrating that the media focuses on Christians like Donald Trump. However, it is extremely judgmental to believe that most Christians are not true believers simply because they do not advertise healing and miracles. Instead of laying a blanket statement down about how most Christians are actually atheists, and are vipers, we should seek to build each other up and encourage each other into true faith -- into a conviction of the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Sources:
1: http://www.cfr.org...
Debate Round No. 2
waterscalming

Pro

I Corinthians 12: 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

The Church and Its Leaders

3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly"mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe"as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God"s service; you are God"s field, God"s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person"s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved"even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don"t you know that you yourselves are God"s temple and that God"s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God"s temple, God will destroy that person; for God"s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become "fools" so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God"s sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a]; 20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b] 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future"all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

1 Corinthians 2
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

1 Corinthians 1
11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe"s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[b]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don"t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel"not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

You say your arguement is based upon it, yet you fail to comprehend. The church that Paul was addressing, I want to know your biblical knowledge that your man-lead scholarly piece of paper leadership has provided you how many churches was PAUL REFERRING TO WITH THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT? 10? 5? 8? 2? 40? No, the answer is ONE, JUST LIKE THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD/JESUS CHRIST/HOLY SPIRIT.

Why do you and everyone else defer your lack of spiritual wisdom from man's foolish teachings? Do you truly not seek and desire to be led, taught and instructed on such things, or are you truly just a sheep being led blindly to the slaughter by wolves in sheep clothing?

"Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?"[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.

I need to see this passage in scripture you referred to with LUCY believing in sprinkling of a newborn. I'm 100% that is man's teaching to the blind sheep. For any type of doctrinal teaching again NOT LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT on how the Denomination (What should be one church identification). If you can provide to me where it says to baptize an infant I'd like to see it, if not it is a tradition set-up by man-kind to lead a divisive teaching of man's practice into scriptural teachings with arrogance, pomp and pride and spit in the HOLY SPIRIT's face.

The thief, believed and had no chance to portray... JESUS CHRIST took pity, and accepted his faith alone from the actions taken and the words spoken on HIS HEART.

The point I'm saying is, every single thing spoken of spirits/demons, angels, prophets prophecies are all evidence of a spiritual entity either good or bad.

But when one denomination openly talks of it, but fails to imply what the implications of what these abilities and sources come from spiritually speaking, it leads one's spiritual soul to be blinded, hungry, and fed poison instead of nutrition.

And Seperate names are not necessary, but the way mankind has established their doctrine of yes and no based upon man's understanding and not the HOLY SPIRIT's understanding (as I just referenced above) you will slightly begin to see and understand this if you ask the HOLY SPIRIT for wisdom and discernment of such things.

Scriptures make it black and white for those who seek the HOLY SPIRIT, do you seek the HOLY SPIRIT for answers, or just the first commentary and dialogue you get from your PHD Pastor who was taught by man's understanding of the scriptures? (You know athiests read the holy bible seeking loopholes and problems knowing it better than most who claim to be christians...that doesn't make the athiests believe in GOD, just as a PHD in the bible does not make them know the HOLY SPIRIT's guidance and wisdom)

There are more prosperity preachers (in terms of brick and mortar churches itself) seeking to be self-sustained by a church following than those who seek after CHRIST's HOLY SPIRIT directly for guidance and direction.

Just because one is persecuted does not mean that they seek the HOLY SPIRIT... does it?

And are you implying that if someone's a Christian one does not have any spirits or demons possessed in them still and that the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT is automatically clean?

If you are saying that you are poorly mistaken if you have ever been to any true faith healing and deliverance ministries who can testify and preach on the fact that once someone's become saved the demons and evil spirit living in that person becomes much more aggressive and potentially try to manifest physically depending on which type of spirit/demon is living inside you.

But who's listening to the Holy Spirit anyways to know this nowadays right?

I mean, its like the HOLY SPIRIT would drive you physically towards talking to someone to be healed, prayed for, laying of hands, on the spot prayer for someone, or divert your prayers to someone you don't even know, or anything else right or wrong?

Yet again... you're saying these churches talk of such things from seperate entities as if they don't believe the same GOD, for why would GOD desire to have division in HIS BODY OF BELIEVERS according to Corinthians?

You say to build up and encourage.

I tell you I cannot build up and encourage division among man's understanding of who and what the scripture directly speaks against otherwise I feel my HOLY SPIRIT would pronounce curses upon me for disobeying JESUS CHRIST/GOD/HOLYSPIRIT.
TheKryken

Con

Almost 0% of your last argument had evidence as to how most churches are atheist or pseudo Christian. Instead, it focused on the Holy Spirit and His influence. If you're not going to debate the original topic, then I will not be responding at length any more. Sorry. I have finals to study for and papers to write.

"The church that Paul was addressing, I want to know your biblical knowledge that your man-lead scholarly piece of paper leadership has provided you how many churches was PAUL REFERRING TO WITH THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?"

Well, this sentence is barely comprehensible, but I'll try and dissect it.

Okay, I assume from "man-lead scholarly piece of paper leadership has provided you" that you think I am getting my ideas from someone else. Yet this is a baseless assumption. I have generated these ideas based on scripture and logical reasoning. I ask questions of people with greater knowledge than me, but I never blindly accept their teachings. I personally do not ascribe to any denomination, because I have asked questions and developed my own beliefs based on the instruction of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and logic (a God-given gift).

"Why do you and everyone else defer your lack of spiritual wisdom from man's foolish teachings? Do you truly not seek and desire to be led, taught and instructed on such things, or are you truly just a sheep being led blindly to the slaughter by wolves in sheep clothing?"

This does not apply to my situation at all. I have not claimed to believe any of "man's foolish teachings".

"I need to see this passage in scripture you referred to with LUCY believing in sprinkling of a newborn. I'm 100% that is man's teaching to the blind sheep."

Okay. I'm attempting to restrain myself here.

I'm sorry if I did not make it clear that the story of Jason and Lucy was an analogy, depicting a circumstance that could possibly occur since they did not choose to identify the details of their beliefs. I personally agree that there is no evidence of infant baptism in the Bible; I have no idea what you thought that I did. However, there is the story of the jailor's household, which could have included an infant, so it is not "spitting in the Holy Spirit's face". It is an attempt to sanctify children so that they may be saved in case of premature death.

"The point I'm saying is, every single thing spoken of spirits/demons, angels, prophets prophecies are all evidence of a spiritual entity either good or bad."

This is not the debate I accepted. I accepted the debate that said, "Most Christian denominations are Pseudo christian, or Atheistic Christian churches".

"And Seperate names are not necessary, but the way mankind has established their doctrine of yes and no based upon man's understanding and not the HOLY SPIRIT's understanding (as I just referenced above) you will slightly begin to see and understand this if you ask the HOLY SPIRIT for wisdom and discernment of such things."

They are a necessary evil, because people will believe different things. If we did not have separate names, then you personally could be lumped into the same church that believes in the Immaculate Conception, or the idea that Jesus was not God.

By no means do denominational beliefs take precedence over the Holy Spirit. People from nearly every denomination can be filled with the Holy Spirit.

"Scriptures make it black and white for those who seek the HOLY SPIRIT, do you seek the HOLY SPIRIT for answers, or just the first commentary and dialogue you get from your PHD Pastor who was taught by man's understanding of the scriptures"

It clearly is not black and white on every subject. God is, but the scriptures do not address every problem that faces the church. How should we use technology? What is a proper age to start dating? What is the correct interpretation of the fossil evidence? The guidance of the Holy Spirit can most definitely be sought in all these things, but the Bible does not directly address every problem we face.

My PHD pastor... Oh dear. I love my pastor, but I would never read a commentary by him.

"There are more prosperity preachers (in terms of brick and mortar churches itself) seeking to be self-sustained by a church following than those who seek after CHRIST's HOLY SPIRIT directly for guidance and direction."

Source this?

"Just because one is persecuted does not mean that they seek the HOLY SPIRIT... does it?"

You'd have to be a special kind of idiot to tell the ISIS member with a sword at your throat that you believe in Jesus if you didn't actually have that faith.

"And are you implying that if someone's a Christian one does not have any spirits or demons possessed in them still and that the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT is automatically clean?"

Nope. I never intended to imply that. If you think I did, please quote where I said that and I will clarify.

"I mean, its like the HOLY SPIRIT would drive you physically towards talking to someone to be healed, prayed for, laying of hands, on the spot prayer for someone, or divert your prayers to someone you don't even know, or anything else right or wrong?"

I feel that this was originally intended to be sarcastic. I certainly have felt driven by the Holy Spirit to pray for someone on the spot --- I have blogged about just such an experience, and it changed my life. If I had not had that experience, however, I would still be a Christian, not pseudo-Christian or atheist.

"I tell you I cannot build up and encourage division among man's understanding of who and what the scripture directly speaks against otherwise I feel my HOLY SPIRIT would pronounce curses upon me for disobeying JESUS CHRIST/GOD/HOLYSPIRIT."

I didn't tell you to build up and encourage division. I said that you, and all of us Christians, should seek to build up one another into truth and faith, rather than fruitless name-calling and finger-pointing.

If anyone still is interested in this debate, Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 3
waterscalming

Pro

Key words from the versus originally stated from the verses I provided where you said it only spoke of the Holy Spirit and 0% relativity.

If you can't comprehend the relationship, perhaps you should have inquired in the comment section if you had time.

It has everything to do with the denominations. Who do you think controls the majority of Denominations/Churches and those who claim to be Christians? It sure (IS NOT) can only be the HOLY SPIRIT. Would the HOLY SPIRIT accept, or relinquish division inside JESUS CHRIST's/HOLY SPIRIT's/GOD's place of worship?

If mankind was not into brick and mortar buildings being built more and more, larger and larger looking for governmental subsidies and tax-breaks for employees and everyone/everything else, do you still truth be told believe churches would be built as much as they are today? If that is not for corporation business greed (By the way, http://www.uscatholic.org...

If you say the answer is not for business in today's church, let's take even a non-christian like hindu, muslim or other faith you think they don't focus on the business requirement aspects first the same time?

Who was Jesus Christ's business administrator or treasurer, or does this not imply that when one church gets so big it must divide itself?

Big churches are like eye-sores to those who know the truth.

Why not just have home-churches, where it is more personal more welcoming, more sincere? Is this or is this not what Christ's ministry is about?

Granted, it is nice to have a specific public place of worship and acknowledgement, but for this to take place is someone trying to get acknowledgement for what reason? I would dare say that depending on the type of subsidies received, and the type of services offered or not offered it could very well implicate an implied answer.

If the Holy Spirit Prophesied through one of the members to build a specific dimension for specific requirements, and specific location that is one thing, but to go about everything in a business manner *location, location and don't forget location* implies business brick and mortar financial profit concepts.

The first time I started to question was approximately 7-8th grade of middle school. Things didn't add up myself. I had a spiritual encounter with a demon from a Southern Baptist Denominational teaching with another adult counselor who just frankly told me, "It's just your imagination playing tricks on you, its not real."

From then out on I off and on questioned why we even needed to go to church, and or have denominations, I got strong-armed not knowing how to rebuff such statements as a child from my father. And hearing from one of my sister's boyfriend about how wiccans/occultists can levitate rocks, rotate the moon, and other spiritual capabilities. It made no sense how what I'm hearing in today's denominational teachings really make any sense or had a way to formulate my argument or issues.

By simply implying LUCY and infant baptism indicates there is a portion of uncertainty for your belief and statement of faith to practice, leading me to understand that you listen to the word of mankind who have paper degrees on biblical teaching versus listening to only the HOLY SPIRIT for GUIDANCE, I will let the Holy Spirit dictate how or why an infant should be baptized by scriptural references HE leads to be discovered and understood by HIS timing, not mine. I believe from previous statements JESUS CHRIST used for the Roman Leader that the Jailer had similar type of faith and control over his entire household and that was what it implied since it was the only other place I have ever read where a ROMAN turned to seek out the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT or that of JESUS CHRIST's abilities. Unless you can directly conclude how the HOLY SPIRIT would have directed infants to be baptized, that is how I take it directly. Never imply something unless you are firmly 100% in agreement of the example. Have you seen me state such counter-examples yet? And I have yet to see, understand or be explained how children are sanctified through baptizing? Is this what John the Baptist did when he was preparing the way for JESUS CHRIST, he just sanctified them? All death is seen and judged by GOD, not mankind; what does the old testament explain about maturity age of right and wrong and standing before the leaders?

"The point I'm saying is, every single thing spoken of spirits/demons, angels, prophets prophecies are all evidence of a spiritual entity either good or bad."

This is not the debate I accepted. I accepted the debate that said, "Most Christian denominations are Pseudo christian, or Atheistic Christian churches".

What do else do you think would imply Most Christian Denominations are Pseudo Christian or Atheistic Christian churches? The fact that they all seek after the HOLY SPIRIT???? If that's the case, you've badly misunderstood the direction I'm taking this debate. Churches can be dwelling places for spirits and demons to take over from, if you don't believe me explain how churches are not able to be overcome by SATAN and his evil strategies? Without using the HOLY SPIRIT for guidance and direction.

They are a necessary evil, because people will believe different things. If we did not have separate names, then you personally could be lumped into the same church that believes in the Immaculate Conception, or the idea that Jesus was not God.

On the contrary, if churches were not brick and mortar buildings, the ones who believe will practice and share like-faith when they run into someone contrary they would openly explain their differences and why. If these differences are not prayed over by the HOLY SPIRIT's direction of how to take the church, then they will be identified as such by others who practice the truth faith, and lead other churches of the like-faith to spiritually battle until the church has been won over or dismantled internally.

By no means do denominational beliefs take precedence over the Holy Spirit. People from nearly every denomination can be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Can other denominational practices have people filled with the Holy Spirit? Yes. Is it more difficult and hard for this to happen? Yes. Why? Because when humankind begins to teach, preach, and explain in man's understanding the HOLY SPIRIT has to cut through all that humankind garble to get to the heart when someone truly seeks GOD for an answer or direction.

It clearly is not black and white on every subject. God is, but the scriptures do not address every problem that faces the church. How should we use technology? What is a proper age to start dating? What is the correct interpretation of the fossil evidence? The guidance of the Holy Spirit can most definitely be sought in all these things, but the Bible does not directly address every problem we face.

Every subject is black and white for those who seek and BELIEVE in HIS NAME. Why? Because HE will make discernment and understanding for such questions, problems and unknown certainties. Until GOD has filled you with adequate answers to poke holes in humankind's understanding of such questions you need to use the same question they use and reverse the question on them using GOD's answers. Every answer Humanists use, Creationists can paint a different picture because GOD never intended Christians to be concerned about these things as GOD created all GOD can destroy all.

"There are more prosperity preachers (in terms of brick and mortar churches itself) seeking to be self-sustained by a church following than those who seek after CHRIST's HOLY SPIRIT directly for guidance and direction."

Source this? I understand to have answered up above.

"Just because one is persecuted does not mean that they seek the HOLY SPIRIT... does it?"

You'd have to be a special kind of idiot to tell the ISIS member with a sword at your throat that you believe in Jesus if you didn't actually have that faith.

I believe I have addressed this either above or in the comments.

"And are you implying that if someone's a Christian one does not have any spirits or demons possessed in them still and that the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT is automatically clean?"

Nope. I never intended to imply that. If you think I did, please quote where I said that and I will clarify.

"Scriptures most certainly are talking about the Holy Spirit. I never said they did not. I said that simply because churches do not perform miracles does not mean they are not Christian. If they profess faith and truly believe, then they are Christian, and the fruits of the Spirit, such as love and joy, will result from that."

If churches are not practicing perform such activities like laying of hands it implies once saved, there's no more spirit or demon in a Christian. (to me at least)

I feel that this was originally intended to be sarcastic. I certainly have felt driven by the Holy Spirit to pray for someone on the spot --- I have blogged about just such an experience, and it changed my life. If I had not had that experience, however, I would still be a Christian, not pseudo-Christian or atheist.

I would question, (myself included) if I am not daily seeking HIM out, I may fall out of HIS grace (perhaps I am too legalistic) and until I truly repent seeking HIM I am borderline pseudo/atheistic due to the analogy plain that replace HIM with something else at that exact moment of my life for HIM to use me.

I didn't tell you to build up and encourage division. I said that you, and all of us Christians, should seek to build up one another into truth and faith, rather than fruitless name-calling and finger-pointing.

How does one not build up without tearing down and seeking to understand why the problems are occurring? Jesus built up all and didn't call anyone fruitless name-calling and finger-pointing did he?

Oh, wait he did.. I forgot did you forget too?
TheKryken

Con

Going to try and keep my responses short. Our main difference is that you believe that many churches are fake because they do not openly perform miracles, and because they are divided. I believe that miracles are by no means a prerequisite for being a Christian, and that these divisions, while unfortunate, are A. Necessary and B. Division does not mean that they are not Christian.

"Key words from the versus originally stated from the verses I provided where you said it only spoke of the Holy Spirit and 0% relativity.

If you can't comprehend the relationship, perhaps you should have inquired in the comment section if you had time."

Sorry, but I actually have no idea what this means.

"Who do you think controls the majority of Denominations/Churches and those who claim to be Christians? It sure (IS NOT) can only be the HOLY SPIRIT."

I think people led by the Holy Spirit "control" most denominations. Most definitely, some do not fully understand the Holy Spirit's guidance. That does not make them pseudo-Christian. That just makes them slightly wrong --- and God accepts slight errors in doctrine, because He knows that sin has corrupted us and makes us imperfect.

"If mankind was not into brick and mortar buildings being built more and more, larger and larger looking for governmental subsidies and tax-breaks for employees and everyone/everything else, do you still truth be told believe churches would be built as much as they are today? If that is not for corporation business greed"

The average church (in America) has 89 adult members. Less than 2% have over 1,000 members. (http://careynieuwhof.com...)

"If you say the answer is not for business in today's church, let's take even a non-christian like hindu, muslim or other faith you think they don't focus on the business requirement aspects first the same time?"

In order to reach more people (and to support the lives of church staff) churches need money. And the average member of the clergy makes $45,500, and only pastors of megachurches (2,000+ members, less than 2% of churches) make $100,000 (http://work.chron.com...).

"Who was Jesus Christ's business administrator or treasurer" Judas (John 13:29) "or does this not imply that when one church gets so big it must divide itself?"

Unsure how Judas being the treasurer implies that big churches should divide themselves.

"Why not just have home-churches, where it is more personal more welcoming, more sincere? Is this or is this not what Christ's ministry is about?"

That would be awesome, and when it can be done, it should be done. I myself have attended 2 in home churches in Bulgaria.

However, if the average church has 90ish members, who will organize home-churches so that all may attend? Let's say 20 people can comfortably fit into 1 home church. The 90 members would have to split into 3-5 home churches, and each church would need someone willing to lead the rest in studying the Bible, leading worship, etc.

"Granted, it is nice to have a specific public place of worship and acknowledgement, but for this to take place is someone trying to get acknowledgement for what reason? I would dare say that depending on the type of subsidies received, and the type of services offered or not offered it could very well implicate an implied answer."

One can note from the salaries I provided earlier that anyone trying to make money should not go into ministry, with very few exceptions.

Also, it is repeatedly mentioned in Acts that the believers met in the temple courts. After the Pentecost, 3,000 believers were added to their number. That actually fits the modern-day definition of a megachurch.

"The first time I started to question was approximately 7-8th grade of middle school. Things didn't add up myself. I had a spiritual encounter with a demon from a Southern Baptist Denominational teaching with another adult counselor who just frankly told me, "It's just your imagination playing tricks on you, its not real."

That is unfortunate.

"By simply implying LUCY and infant baptism indicates there is a portion of uncertainty for your belief and statement of faith to practice, leading me to understand that you listen to the word of mankind who have paper degrees on biblical teaching versus listening to only the HOLY SPIRIT for GUIDANCE, I will let the Holy Spirit dictate how or why an infant should be baptized by scriptural references HE leads to be discovered and understood by HIS timing, not mine."

Okay. Okay. *calms down*.

I never said I support infant baptism. In fact, I stated that I do not support it. It was an analogy to show that expressing a denomination is a quick way to determine if your beliefs line up with someone else's.

And, Can not the Holy Spirit guide me through the teachings of other people, people who are extremely intelligent?

"explain how churches are not able to be overcome by SATAN and his evil strategies"

The debate topic says most churches. I repeat, Most churches. Some churches may be overcome by evil. Not most.

"when they run into someone contrary they would openly explain their differences and why"

My point was that you would not know if you ran into someone contrary, unless you fully outlined every detail of your belief every time you met a different person, which is what a denomination does.

"Every subject is black and white for those who seek and BELIEVE in HIS NAME. Why? Because HE will make discernment and understanding for such questions, problems and unknown certainties."

Has God answered all your questions, about every aspect of life?

"I believe I have addressed this either above or in the comments."

Don't think you did.

"If churches are not practicing perform such activities like laying of hands it implies once saved, there's no more spirit or demon in a Christian. (to me at least)"

No, it implies that the church does not practice the laying of hands, or does not have someone gifted with healing. Also, nearly every Christian practices praying for healing. In other words, asking God to heal, which is what many of the people Jesus healed did.

"I would question, (myself included) if I am not daily seeking HIM out, I may fall out of HIS grace (perhaps I am too legalistic) and until I truly repent seeking HIM I am borderline pseudo/atheistic due to the analogy plain that replace HIM with something else at that exact moment of my life for HIM to use me."

Unsure how this relates to the experiences I've had where I have felt the Holy Spirit guiding me to pray for someone.

"How does one not build up without tearing down and seeking to understand why the problems are occurring? Jesus built up all and didn't call anyone fruitless name-calling and finger-pointing did he?

Oh, wait he did.. I forgot did you forget too?"

Instead of calling most Christians atheists or fakers, you could instead say, "More churches should practice the gifts of the Spirit."

Jesus knew how to change people's hearts. He did not go around saying, "Most Jews are fakers." He told the Pharisee's specifically that they were a brood of vipers. Most Jews were not Pharisees.

If you had opened the debate with, "Many leaders of megachurches are false Christians" then we would not be having this debate. But you didn't say that.

This debate has been edifying for me, and it is good that I have explored the scriptures more. However, I feel like I have restated most of my argument multiple times, and I don't have an interest to continue doing so. If you wish to say more, that is fine. I will simply reply next round with "finish". Thank you for the debate.
Debate Round No. 4
waterscalming

Pro

waterscalming forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by persianimmortal 11 months ago
persianimmortal
Led by the Holy Spirit....then as I said, you're awesome haha @kryken
Posted by persianimmortal 11 months ago
persianimmortal
Led by the Holy Spirit....then as I said, you're awesome haha @kryken
Posted by TheKryken 11 months ago
TheKryken
I don't claim to be writing scripture, haha. But I certainly feel led by the Holy Spirit to write what I write, in terms of my blog.
Posted by persianimmortal 11 months ago
persianimmortal
@The kryken If the Holy Spirit truly caused you to write all of them, then make sure it's 100% correct/perfect, because it's the word of God we're talking about here #nojoke #moreeffort
But regardless, if it's in the name of the One True All-Mighty God, then you're awesome hands down :)))
Posted by TheKryken 11 months ago
TheKryken
Your mere mention of Lucy and the infant baptism emphasis in my understanding how lacking of understanding you would have. Baptism, "If" the same manner of faith from when Jesus was asked by a a Roman Centurian Luke 7:9 was practiced even by the Jailer then it would have implied that everyone would have been baptized believing what the head of the household male leader followed.

<b> I don't support infant baptism. Lucy was an analogy. </b>

I'm not looking to be Politically correct today. I'm not worrying about *offending somebody* because my views are not lined up with theirs. If they disagree... let's debate, and discuss understand and agree to disagree.

<b>Neither am I. I only seek to understand others, so that I may connect with them and lead them into an understanding of the truth.</b>

If Pastors do not have pride in their letter biblical degree and are not for brick and mortar buildings, then why the massive church sizes, needing to expand their building sizes? Is a small church member size too humble for them to offer all the services the government freebies have to offer?
<b>See Round 4</b>

And doesn't Matthew 7 discuss the following:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?" 23 Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

<b>This verse is showing that miracles do not prove faith.</b>

And maybe rarely obey the voice talking once in a while.

Not sure why you would attempt to insult my faith, as you have no idea how many times I have done things due to the God's guidance.

I have 26 blog posts here http://thekryken.blogspot.com...

I believe the Holy Spirit caused me to write all of them (Not saying they are all 100% correct/perfectly t
Posted by waterscalming 11 months ago
waterscalming
Note,

Reasoning for Posting all of the Holy Spirit and talking of such, is to reflect how today's churches do not properly discuss or understand the reason for unity.

Your mere mention of Lucy and the infant baptism emphasis in my understanding how lacking of understanding you would have. Baptism, "If" the same manner of faith from when Jesus was asked by a a Roman Centurian Luke 7:9 was practiced even by the Jailer then it would have implied that everyone would have been baptized believing what the head of the household male leader followed.

That mere *LUCY and Infant Baptism got me going in Corinthians* I'm not looking to be Politically correct today. I'm not worrying about *offending somebody* because my views are not lined up with theirs. If they disagree... let's debate, and discuss understand and agree to disagree.

If Pastors do not have pride in their letter biblical degree and are not for brick and mortar buildings, then why the massive church sizes, needing to expand their building sizes? Is a small church member size too humble for them to offer all the services the government freebies have to offer?

And doesn't Matthew 7 discuss the following:

21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?" 23 Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Who or what do you believe this implies? Only Catholics? The ones who worship and pray to idols alongside JESUS CHRIST? They perform exorcisms as well, just read up on the pope and exorcism.

If one does not know the voice of the Holy Spirit not everyone will hear HIS voice either.

And maybe rarely obey the voice talking once in a while.
Posted by persianimmortal 12 months ago
persianimmortal
Churches are no different than businesses, it's revenue depends on the number of adherents the church has therefore one could say that the revenue ARE the adherents themselves. The following are verses regarding the denominationalism :

Galatians 1:6-10
1 Corinthians 1:10
Romans 16:17
Titus 2:1
John 17:20-26
Matthew 12:25
1 Corinthians 12:12-31
Jude 1:19
Romans 12:4-21
1 Corinthians 3:4-7
2 John 1:9
Ephesians 4:4-5

These are among the few verses against denominational&#305;#1;maya, a concept that is nowhere to be found in the Gospel. :)))
No votes have been placed for this debate.