The Instigator
NiqashMotawadi3
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
IslamAhmadiyya
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Muhammad Ibn Abdullah was one of the prophets of God

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
NiqashMotawadi3
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/3/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,571 times Debate No: 41607
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)

 

NiqashMotawadi3

Con

PREFACE

Pro has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mohammad Ibn Abdullah was one of the prophets of God, while Con takes the agnostic position on the issue. In other words, Con has to undermine Pro's arguments to win this debate, while Pro has to present proof beyond reasonable doubt that Mohammad was a divinely-inspired Prophet.

* "Was" here is not used in the sense that he was and then stopped being a prophet, but that he "was" a prophet on Earth when he was alive.

DEFINITIONS

God: The omniscient and omnipotent entity that created the universe.

Prophet: A person who speaks by divine inspiration to carry out the message of God.

Mohammad Ibn Abdullah: The man considered by Muslims to be the one who received divine inspirations that revealed the Qur'an.

META

Only members with a minimum of 5 completed debates can accept.
Rounds: 4.
Voting period: 2 Weeks.
Time to argue: 72 hours.
Argument Max: 10,000 characters.

RULES AND REGULATIONS

For the first time ever, I'm going to base my debate on the NDRE Lv.1.5 (Strict), which basically stands for Niqashian Debating Regulations and Etiquette Level 1.5 (Strict). This document was created by me and hosted on the DDO forums so that I avoid repeating the same rules in every debate.

It is obligatory for my challenger to read the document(http://www.debate.org...) before accepting this debate. The document is split into two parts, "critical rules" and "etiquette standards."

Additional obligatory rules

The NDRE explains in articles A.1.8 and A.1.9 that the instigator of the debate can present additional rules in his opening statement. Here are my additional rules:

R1- No acceptance round. Pro has to start arguing from the first round.
R2- Burden of proof is solely on Pro.
R3- The defintions presented in my opening statement must be followed.

---

As this debate fits the criteria of article A.1.6 of the NDRE, it makes sense to state the article here for emphasis purposes:

A.1.6 If Con initiated the debate and didn't use his/her first round to argue, then Pro cannot argue in the final round but he/she must only say "As agreed."


I wish my opponent the best of luck. I'll answer any questions or objections in the comments' section.
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful.

Assalamualaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
May all the peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.

I will be debating for the side of Pro, and I will, with the aid of God, try my best to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Muhammad (saw) ibn Abdullah was one of the Prophets/Messengers of God.

I will start R1 with a brief history, and provide more proofs in R2.

A Brief History

Muhammad (saw) is definitely not your typical ordinary man you see every day. He was born in the year 570 A.D. in Mecca, Arabia. His father passed away before he was even born, and his mother passed away when he was around the age of 6. He was then taken under the custody and care of his grandfather, who also passed 2 years later. Then he was taken under the custody of his uncle, Abu Talib (ra), and he was one of the chiefs of the city of Mecca.

Mecca was a thriving city, every year, merchants and traders from all round came to Mecca to trade, and also people attended the yearly pilgrimmages to worship the idols that were inside the Ka'aba.

But there was more to Mecca, nay, Arabia, than meets the eye. Pre-Islamic Arabia was one of the most immoral and cruel civilizations during its time. Not only was it Arabia, but many tribes and nations across the globe. All around, women were treated unequally to that of those of men; slavery was a common practice. Arabs also practiced infanticide, burying mostly newborn female babies in the ground because they would bring dishonor to the family. Merchants traded dishonestly, rulers lead the people unjustly. Tribes waged wars on other tribes for wealth and glory. This was Pre-Islamic Arabia. On top of all this, Arabs were not the most educated of people, many were illiterate, they were unable to read or write. Women were definitely denied the right to education. Arabia also had no organized political system.[1]

Muhammad (saw) grew up in this type of society, working as a merchant, living around liars and decievers, ignorants and unjust rulers. He himself however was not the type of man who indluged in the evil practices of his own people. Periodically he used to remove himself from the city for a few days at a time and isolate himself in a cave a few miles from the city, known as Cave Hira. In this cave he used to worship the Creator, seeking His help for his own people. He was distressed and sorrowed for the fact that the societies that existed all around were cruel and unjust. Merchants were dishonest, masters were disloyal, women were objectified, rulers were like tyrants, injustice and inequality was rampant all around. Slavery was a common practice, tribes engaged in battle with other tribes for power, and worst of all, all of the people turned away and forgot God, and idolatry and polytheism replaced the monotheistic faith that existed in the lands from the previous Messengers.

Aside from his resorts, back in the city, Muhammad (saw) was very well known for his honesty and his unique personality. Him being from the royal family, the entire city as well as people from outside his own city knew who he was. As he was a merchant, he dealt honestly with people, he gave exact measures, and never lied or stolen something from someone else. He was awarded two titles by the Meccan people themselves, As-Sidiq (The Honest), and Al-Amin (The Trustworthy).[2]

At the age of 25, a twice-widowed woman by the name of Khadija (ra), who was around 40 and had no desire to remarry, hired Muhammad (saw) to work for her, and she was a very well known merchant. She was known as the Princess of Mecca and also The Pure One, amongst the Meccans. She was so impressed and charmed by the success of Muhammad (saw) in his abilities, personality, and extreme senses of honesty, that she proposed to him, and soon they were both married and lived a loving life together.[3] She was also the first to accept Islam.

Muhammad (saw) continued on with his solitary worshipping periods and raising his family, until he reached the age of 40, when something extraordinary happened to him while he was worshiping in the cave. As Muslims claim, the very first revelation of God was revealed to Muhammad (saw), through the Angel Gabriel (as). The revelation was as follows.

(Chapter 96:Verses 2-6)
"Convey! In the name of thy Lord Who created. Created man from a clot of blood. Convey! And thy Lord is Most Generous. Who taught man by the pen, Taught man what he knew not."[4]

Iqra (in Arabic) was the first word of the revelation of God, and in English, it means: convey, proclaim, read, recite.

Muhammad (saw) was terrified by this unique encounter. Even though he was in a cave in the mountains, he was sweating intensely, he became so nervous, that he ran back home as fast as he could, and went under his wife's arms. He told her everything that happened. He began to fear, not because of horror, but because of the greatest responsibility and burden that God had just granted him, to convey the message of the Oneness of God to the world. At this point of his life, he was appointed a Prophet, a Messenger of God, descending from Prophet Abraham (as), similar in likeness to Prophet Moses (as), and prophesied by Prophet Jesus (as).

Khadija's (ra) took Muhammad (saw) to her cousin, Waraka ibn Nawfal, who was a Christian living in Mecca. Muhammad (saw) conveyed what he experienced to Waraka, and Waraka replied, "This was Namoos-e-Akbar (Jibra-eel/Gabriel) whom God had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out."

Muhammad (saw) asked, "Will they drive me out?"

Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.

Waraka also said regarding Muhammad (saw), "There has come to him the greatest Law that came to Moses; surely he is the prophet of this people."
[5]

So Waraka himself, who was a Christian, confirmed the revelation that was revealed to Muhammad (saw), and stated right away that the same Angel that descended upon the previous messengers has now also descended upon Muhammad (saw).

Muhammad (saw) then continued to preach quietly, to close family members and friends. It was after 3 years when God revealed to Muhammad (saw) to go public and convey the message to the entire city.

Muhammad (saw) climbed mount As-Safa and called the city before him. He asked the people that if an army was approaching Mecca to attack, would they believe him...the Meccans responded with the affirmative and stated that they would definitely believe him, because he was a man that never lied or was dishonest.

Then Muhammad (saw) proclaimed his prophethood to the people, he stated that God is One and that he is sent as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner for mankind. After this proclomation, did the hostility arise. Many people immediately turned to disgust, one of his uncles, Abu Lahab said, "O Muhammad! You brought us here for this!?" However, others immediately accepted Muhammad's (saw) message, and this is when the start of the persecution began.[6]

This is a primary proof of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw), that such an honest and trustworthy man, so well known in the city, with such a great reputation, would make such a big claim like this out of the blue.

Muhammad (saw) continued to preach along with his followers. The number of Muslims grew so rapidly within Mecca that the Meccans began to take notice, and were enraged by the 'new' religion. The cheifs informed Abu Talib (ra), Muhammad's uncle and also a chief of Mecca, and stated that if Muhammad (saw) did not stop preaching, they would kill Muhammad. Abu Talib (ra) informed his nephew and Muhammad (saw) replied, "I swear by Almighty God that even if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, and in return, demand of me to quit the propagation of Islam and pursuance of my divine aim, I will never do what they want me to. I am determined to carry on my duty toward God to the last moment of my life, even if it means losing my life. I am strongly determined to attain my goal."[6]

The Meccan chiefs reckoned Muhammad (saw) was after power, wealth, and women, so they offered these things to him and bribed him in exchange that he would stop preaching Islam. Muhammad (saw) replied to them, "I am neither interested in wealth, nor in lordship nor sovereignty. The One God has assigned me as a Prophet and granted me a Book. I am a Messenger of God and my mission is to warn you of God's severe punishment and give you the tidings of God's reward for the faithful. I have performed my duty. If you follow my instructions, you will achieve prosperity and salvation, and if you refuse to believe in my faith, I will be persistent and resistant until God passes a judgment between me and you."[6]

So as you can clearly see, why would a man risk his very own life, family, wealth, reputation, everything he is, for a made up story that he wants everybody to believe in, and for what? We know from history that no man or woman would do something like this. What we are left with now are 3 options regarding the prophethood of Muhammad (saw):

1) He is a liar and is lying.
2) He is deluded.
3) He is speaking the truth.

I will cover these in R2, but I am close to running out of space, so I will now give Con the debate, if he wants to make some comments, ask questions, or refute anything.

Sources:
[1] http://www.al-islam.org...
[2] http://mercyprophet.org...
[3] http://www.beliefnet.com...#
[4] https://www.alislam.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[6] http://www.maaref-foundation.com...
Debate Round No. 1
NiqashMotawadi3

Con

INTRODUCTION

To win this debate, Pro has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mohammad is the prophet of God. Pro has not done this so for, but instead offered a logically fallacious argument that is an Islamic clone of the well-refuted "Liar, lunatic or Lord" argument that is used by some Christians.

The historic account that Pro offered was supported with non-trusted sources from Al-Islam.org, Merchprophet.org, Beliefnet.com and Maaref-foundation.com. Hence, I see no good reason to take for granted his description of Mohammad's life as along as Pro doesn't use academic sources.

REBUTTAL

Liar, Deluded or the Prophet of God?


P1- Mohammad could be either a liar, a deluded person or the prophet of God. [False trilemma]

P2- Mohammad never lied in his life. [Not established as a historic fact to be used as a premise]

P3- Mohammad was not deluded. [Not established as a historic fact to be used as a premise]

Conclusion: Mohammad was the Prophet of God


To refute this argument, I only have to disprove one premise. However, I'm going to present my objections and remarks on each premise.


P1- Mohammad could be either a liar, a deluded person or the prophet of God.

This is a classical example of a False Trilemma that (1) excludes many other alternatives and (2) does not really give three exclusive classifications. For example, Mohammad could be partially legendary, as in someone who has many false stories about his prophecy although he existed as a historic figure with a different prophecy. This trilemma also ignores the fact that some patients can be diagnosed as both suffering from vivid delusions and in the same time using intentional lies in a compulsive manner. Studies indicate that the final stage of a pathological lie cannot be differentiated from a delusion[1], and that some self-deluded patients exhibit a tendency to lie on matters that don't involve their delusions[2].

In summary, Pro is using a False Trilemma that glances over many other possibilities in the probability space while offering intertwined classifications that don't really act as exclusive options.


P2- Mohammad never lied in his life.

Pro's evidence was that people around Mohammad called him "honest" according to the Islamic narrative. I have to say, this does not at all entail that he never lied in his life, or never got away with lies such as a false prophecy, even if he maintained an honest demeanor throughout his life.

In summary, P2 needs to be established as a historic fact to be used as a premise.

P3- Mohammad was not deluded

It is nearly impossible to tell if someone is definitely not deluded based on historic accounts. For instance, a patient with a delusional disorder might be highly-functioning in daily life with no effect on his IQ or any indications of bizarre behaviors[3].

In summary, P3 needs to be established as a historic fact to be used as a premise.

...

MY CASE

On my Agnosticism

I'm not arguing here against Mohammad with any positive claims such as "he is deluded" or "he is a liar," but arguing that there is no reasonable proof for his prophecy. Pro so far has failed to convince me that Mohammad is the Prophet of God, but actually deepened my doubts by basing his argument on a false trilemma followed with unsupported premises.

Epistemological Argument from Naturalistic Explanations

P1- If there is a naturalistic explanation that is plausible, then there is a sufficient reason to reject any supernatural, unsupported proposals.

P2- There is a naturalistic explanation of Mohammad's prophecy that is plausible.

Conclusion: There is a sufficient reason to reject any supernatural, unsupported proposals on Mohammad's prophecy.

...

In simpler terms, if someone argues for a supernatural proposal like the existence of Angels, God and the claim that an Angel manifested itself to reveal a prophecy, then this claim is considered to be very extraordinary and supernatural(beyond nature). In case such supernatural explanation is not supported with conclusive evidence and reasonable proof, then any naturalistic explanation that is plausible (not necessarily established as true) is a better explanation than the supernatural one.

I'm expected to offer naturalistic explanations opposing Pro's supernatural proposals. By this, I don't mean to make a positive claim on Mohammad's prophecy. My ambition is to provide better alternatives, simply to undermine Pro's position even more. In other words, my purpose is to provide arguments that undermine the role of the supernatural, not for us to accept the naturalistic explanations per se, but only for such explanations to raise suspicions that lead to agnosticism or indecision on the resolution.

On Mohammad's Revelation in the Cave

Pro assumed, without any questioning, that it was an angel that revealed itself to Mohammad in the cave, but the odd thing about Mohammad's story is that it has many parallels to experiences of sleep paralysis.

Sleep paralysis: Consists of a period of inability to perform muscular/voluntary movements on sleep onset or upon awakening that sometimes includes hypnagogic hallucinations[4]. The experiences/hallucinations in SP patients are usually different but share common elements such as feeling pulled down, feeling a presence, inability to move, muscle weakening and conversations with a ghostly presence, which are followed with a period of terror or shock after such horrific experiences[5]. Sleep paralysis has been depicted historically as a demon sitting on a woman's chest to explain the feeling of being pulled down by an unknown presence.



Narrated 'Aisha: The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) DREAMS in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship (Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him on the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists)..."

Compare this to this story from a Sleep Paralysis patient:

"I feel like someone or something is holding me down. I can't move. I am sleeping but I feel like I'm completely awake. I know what's happening.... I get angry and start to yell at "it" and I feel like it's grabbing me and trying to hold me down. I can even seriously feel "its" head or the hair I'm pulling from "it" and hear "it" scream or say ouch. This too lasts a few seconds and I know when it leaves the room and it's over. Sometimes these experiences are so intense that I could swear I'm being molested by the "dark side" It's really scary and I can't control it no matter what I do.."[6]

(1) Mohammad was stressed (as Pro claims) and isolated in a cave, knowing that "isolation" and "stress" are two causes of Sleep Paralysis[5].

(2) Mohammad was either meditating/relaxing or sleeping in the cave, knowing that deep relaxation and meditation can cause Sleep Paralysis[6].

(3) Mohammad felt pulled down and released, which is a common experience within sleep paralysis.

(4) Mohammad, according to Pro's narrative, went to Khadija terrified after the experience, which is also common among Sleep Paralysis patients after their experiences.

A similar parallel to mine is made by Shelley R. Adler(a professor at the University of California Berkley) , who claims in her academic work that Mohammad experienced a nightmare of Sleep Paralysis[7].

My ambition here, as previously explained, is only to provide a better alternative that is naturalistic as opposed to Pro's supernatural account of what happened, as I only intend to show that there exists a plausible and naturalistic explanation.

Furthermore, this only deals with the revelations Mohammad had in his sleep and meditations, although there are other instances that seem to indicate a Temporal Lobe Epilepsy or even attempts by Mohammad to get away from uncomfortable situations. As the well-known orientalist, D. S. Margoliouth, claims: Mohammad could have faked some of his revelations to serve his interests[8].

There are more indications for Sleep Paralysis in Mohammad's case and other disorders which I left out due to character limit... It is important to note that such knowledge of psychology was not found at Mohammad's time, so it is quite expected for Waraka ibn Nawfal and others to fall for superstitious explanations.
...

CITATIONS

[1] "Pathological lying, accusation, and swindling." W Healy, MT Healy - Criminal Science Monographs - JSTOR.
[2] "Pseudologia fantastica in the borderline patient". S Snyder - Am. J. Psychiatry, 1986.
[3] Winokur, George."Comprehensive Psychiatry-Delusional Disorder"American Psychiatric Association. 1977. p 513.
[4] Stanford.edu/~dement/paralysis.html
[5] Ohayon, M.; Zulley, J.; Guilleminault, C.; Smirne, S. (1999). "Prevalence and pathologic associations of sleep paralysis in the general population".
[6] Sleep Paralysis: A Guide to Hypnagogic Visions & Visitors of the Night. Ryan Hurd, ‎Liza Joseph, ‎Justin Oefelein - 2010 - ‎Body, Mind & Spirit.
[7] Sleep Paralysis: Night-mares, Nocebos, and the Mind-body Connection" by Shelley R. Adler. P. 44-45.
[8] Margoliouth, David Samuel (1905). Mohammed and the Rise of Islam. Putnam. p. 46.
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful

Assalamualaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

I will mainly correct Con's misunderstandings in this round and discuss some of his propositions, and state a few proofs of the prophethood regarding Muhammad (saw-may all the peace and blessings of God be upon him).

Intro

Con seems to have an issue with my sources, so I'll provide him with this one book, if it has any use to him.[1] This book should suffice as a historical perspective on the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Rebuttal

I have not issued forth my argument regarding the 3 options that I brought forth, I was going to expand further, but Con has brought up some interesting points anyway and I will refute P1, but mainly cover all of this in the next round.

P1: Con here states that premise 1 is an example of false trilemma because it a) may exclude other possibilities, and b) the three classifications are not entirely exclusive, so it is possible they can mix and match together.

a) I would simply ask Con if he sees any other possibilities, to please bring them forward, otherwise, the three that I have mentioned seem sound and straightforward.

b) The three classifications I have mentioned are exclusive. A liar is one who refrains from speaking the truth to gain an unfair advantage and/or to hide something, otherwise the liar would suffer in some way. A deluded person is someone who pretty much accepts something as a fact even though the reality is completely and undeniably contrary to it. A person cannot be both deluded, and lie. This is a logical infallacy. A person who lies knows what the truth is, but purposely refrains from publicizing it. A person who is deluded believes with strong conviction that what they propose is valid and not invalid. You cannot know the truth and still be deluded, you have to be one or the other. Therefore, the classification of a lying person and a deluded person are exclusive.

Regarding the third classification, it is also exclusive. Assuming the All-Knowing All-Wise God exists, He would never choose a person who is affected by delusion or someone who would lie to carry the word of God and proclaim it to the people. Therefore, the third classification is also exclusive. A person cannot lie or be deluded and also be a prophet carrying God's message to the world. This would infact, lessen God Himself.

P2: I will cover this later.

P3: I will cover this later.

Con's Case

Epistemological Argument from Naturalistic Explanations

Con brings this argument up to disprove the supernatural encounter of Muhammad (saw). But the argument that Con brings forth is weak in understanding compared with the actual understanding.

P1: This premise is already invalid, and is based off the ignorance of understanding the concept of God and His actions. Every single act of God within this universe is confined by the laws that govern this universe that He Himself created. Any act that is manifested by God can be explained via the laws of nature. God never breaks the very own laws that He has created. So any supernatural act that a human being may encounter or witness will also have a naturalistic explanation behind it, because God uses the very own laws to manifest a supernatural phenomenon. See this for a better understanding.[2]

P2: See P1. Of course there is a naturalistic explanation, no act of God can be unexplained, but we humans have not discovered all the laws that govern this world, so up to that extent, various acts of God can be unexplained, until we discover these very laws. This is exactly why God Himself commands humans to study and learn, and use our reasoning. Because with this very knowledge we will find Him.

Conclusion: Every supernatural act is manifested through the laws of nature and have naturalistic explanations as well. This does not disapprove the supernatural aspect of Muhammad's revelations.

Sleep Paralysis

As I have mentioned just now, every supernatural act also has a natural explanation, as no action of God within this universe is beyond the very own laws He has created. Therefore, every act can be tested, measured, studied, understood, etc.

Con writes til the end of his debate all about the connection of sleep paralysis and the revelations of Muhammad (saw) in the cave. But what Con did not inform us is what sleep paralysis really is and the science behind it.

Sleep paralysis is something that every human being may have encountered at least once in their life. It is when we fall alseep and begin to dream, but at the same time, our minds are still awake and we are fully conscious of what is going on. What really happens is a chemical imbalance. When we fall asleep and enter the REM cycle (Rapid Eye Movement), our body is responsible for releasing chemicals that will 'freeze' our bodies and prevent our bodies from moving so that we humans do not act out our own dreams. During sleep paralysis, there is an imbalance in the order of the release of certain chemicals. The chemicals responsible for freezing the muscles are released before the chemicals that make us fall asleep, therefore, we are fully conscious and awake in bed, yet we are frozen and unable to move.[3]

People (including myself), who have experienced sleep paralysis have felt something sitting upon them, preventing them from moving. Also, you begin to sense a feel of danger, and also start seeing illusions and figures that were never there. There is a natural explanation however, for these illusions and the feelings of danger that we feel, and it all has to do with our minds.

Now what Con is proposing is that the feelings Muhammad (saw) had during his first revelation seem very similar to that of those of sleep paralysis victims. But what I want to clarify is that if we accept the fact that God revealed to Muhammad (saw), there will obviously be a natural explanation as well, if you read my previous refutations regarding Con's premises. The same chemicals that are released in sleep paralysis victims could have been used by God as well. And it is not only sleep paralysis, but God can reveal Himself to people in dreams as well. And we all know what dreams are, dreams also have natural explanations. But because it has a natural explanation does NOT invalidate the fact that there could be a supernatural cause behind it.

So Con's statements regarding sleep paralysis are not strong enough to disapprove the revelations of Muhammad (saw). Let it be known, the revelations of Muhammad (saw) have continued for 22.5 years, until his demise, was he going through sleep paralysis during this whole time? The reality is that, a sleep paralysis encounter with a man has suddenly formed one of the world's most powerful religions and powerful book that has survived hundreds of years against corruption?

Also one thing I want to point out. Con states Muhammad (saw) was terrified when he narrated his experience to Khadija (ra). But if he checked the book out that I linked, page 27, Muhammad (saw) says to his wife, "Weak man that I am, how can I carry the responsibility which God proposes to put on my shoulders?" So Muhammad (saw) wasn't terrified out of natural fear, but terrified out of the heavy burden and responsibility that God has just granted him.[1]

I cannot make myself more clear however. Con is stuck with the natural =/= supernatural clause. Let us see what he has to say about this next round.

I will now proceed with providing logical proof that would help us reasonably assume that Muhammad (saw) had to be a prophet.

Proof (more next round)

In order to see whether the prophethood of Muhammad (saw) is legitimate, we will compare him with some qualities of an ideal prophet.

A prophet of God must have an exemplar character and personality. They are human beings like everyone else, chosen wisely by God Himself as a role model for mankind. Their characteristics must mirror the following:

Honesty - Muhammad (saw) was among those who were honest. He was a merchant who gave everybody their fair share. His own people granted him the title, As-Sidiq.

Trustworthy - His people never found him lying once, he was entitled, Al-Amin, by his people for his outstanding trustworthiness.

Desire for justice and equality - A prophet is here to end injustice and bring about equality in society and deal justly with people. Mecca was a very unjust society, slavery was rampant and women were of unequal status compared to men. After Islam spread throughout Mecca and Arabia, the injustice and inequality were washed away. A manifest proof of the legitimacy of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw). Within 10 years, ALL of Arabia was under Islam. No man in history could have ever brought union upon every single tribe, clan, and nation living in this part of the world.[4]

Morality - It it the duty of a messenger to discuss issues of morals of society, and correct the standards of people. This is what Muhammad (saw) did throughout his life.

Separation from worldly affairs - A prophet of God is not attached to this world, and is not seeking power, wealth, or anything else. Muhammad (saw) himself refused power, wealth, and women, when the Meccans offered these things to him.

Bravery - A prophet is not afraid to stand up and fight for the truth. Muhammad (saw) was victorious to many battles where he was outnumbered compared with his opponenets. The Muslims, although weak, fought with such bravery that armies of thousands fleed from battle.[5]

Meekness - Muhammad (saw) was a shy and meek person. He never walked haughtily or with pride, but had a gentle and dignified behavior.

I will bring more of these next round as I am running out of space. I will hand over the debate to Con and see how this debate plays out.

Sources:
[1] http://www.alislam.org...
[2] http://www.apologeticspress.org...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
NiqashMotawadi3

Con

INTRODUCTION

Pro has failed to provide any proof for Mohammad's prophecy, but instead persisted on using his logically fallacious argument while refusing to use academic sources to describe Mohammad's life and personal traits.

His narrative of Mohammad relies on a book called "Life of Mohammad" which is neither peer-reviewed nor academic, but written by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad, who does not have any accredited scholarship in Islamic History or Religious Studies, but relies on his position as the son of the "Ahmadiyah prophet"[1].

REBUTTAL

Liar, Deluded or the Prophet of God?

Pro requests, "I would simply ask Con if he sees any other possibilities, to please bring them forward, otherwise, the three that I have mentioned seem sound and straightforward."

Response: [From my previous round]. "Mohammad could be partially legendary, as in someone who has many false stories about his prophecy although he existed as a historic figure with a different prophecy."

Pro claims, "A person cannot be both deluded, and lie. This is a logical infallacy[sic]. A person who lies knows what the truth is, but purposely refrains from publicizing it. A person who is deluded believes with strong conviction that what they propose is valid and not invalid."

Rebuttal: It is an unrealistic assumption that people are always either completely deluded or lying about a particular matter. Pro commits here a False Dilemma logical fallacy (also known as Black and White thinking). According to psychological research, we have many cases of pathological liars believing some of their lies eventually to the degree that their lies turn into delusions, although a pathological liar would have other lies that don't reach the "delusion stage" [2]. Moreover, someone with persecutory schizophrenia might have a delusion which he supports with intentional lies to make it more convincing to others. I don't see why this is impossible. For instance, someone might believe that he is being followed by clowns that are trying to kidnap him to steal his kidneys. In order to make his delusion more convincing to others, it is possible for that person to use intentional lies to provide supporting evidence... such as that he once disguised himself as a clown and accessed a special operations' room that was located beneath a circus. Pro has to show that this is impossible.

In conclusion, Pro's first premise is a False Trilemma which is a caricature of reality as opposed to an accurate, scientific classification. Moreover, his other premises have NOT been supported so far and established as historic facts to be used as factual premises.

Sleep paralysis

Pro conceded that Mohammad had Sleep Paralysis but claimed that it also had a supernatural factor without providing any empirical evidence for the role of God or Angels in such event. I see no reason, therefore, to accept that an Angel caused this or was involved in this.

Pro explains, "But what I want to clarify is that if we accept the fact that God revealed to Muhammad (saw), there will obviously be a natural explanation as well, if you read my previous refutations regarding Con's premises. The same chemicals that are released in sleep paralysis victims could have been used by God as well. And it is not only sleep paralysis, but God can reveal Himself to people in dreams as well. And we all know what dreams are, dreams also have natural explanations. But because it has a natural explanation does NOT invalidate the fact that there could be a supernatural cause behind it."

Rebuttal: Pro concedes that Mohammad's revelation in the cave can be explained using Sleep Paralysis and dreams, so I don't see why he assumes there is a supernatural cause behind it. My alternative never sought to "invalidate" his explanation in any way, but simply to undermine it as I meticulously explained: If we can explain phenomena without Angels and Gods, why shouldn't we? Why should we assume God is behind it? If I throw a rock and it falls because of gravity, does it make sense for me to assume that it also fell because an Angel used his hand to push it to the ground?

Pro asks, "Let it be known, the revelations of Muhammad (saw) have continued for 22.5 years, until his demise, was he going through sleep paralysis during this whole time?"

Rebuttal: Sleep paralysis has two major classifications: Isolated Sleep Paralysis (ISP) and Recurrent Isolated Sleep Paralysis (RISP). Patients with RISP have recurrent and multiple experiences of sleep paralysis that occur on a regular basis that usually extend from a patient's childhood till his very death[3]. To stay on the safe side, I said in my previous round that Mohammad's prophecy can be attributed to three things: (1) recurrent sleep paralysis, (2) temporal lobe epilepsy and (3) Mohammad faking revelations for his own interests.

In summary, Pro falsely assumed that all cases of sleep paralysis are ISP when many of them are recurrent(RISP). Moreover, he failed to provide any proof for his empirical claims such as that an Angel sent by God revealed such revelations through naturalistic measures.

On the traits of Mohammad

I have not yet received any academic sources supporting Mohammad's personal traits such as honesty and what have you, but citations from Islamic websites and non-academic books. Nonetheless, even if we accept those for the sake of argumentation, they are not proof that Mohammad is the prophet of God, but evidence that Mohammad had traits that are expected of a Prophet. This debate is not on whether Mohammad had the traits of a Prophet, but whether he actually was a Prophet .

Epistemological Argument from Naturalistic Explanations

This argument only works on supernatural explanations. Pro explained that he believes God works in naturalistic ways(which is a very interesting notion), which means that this argument is inherently incompatible.

Best Explanation Model Argument

Nevertheless, it can be argued that my naturalistic explanation is better than Pro's based on an empirical basis.

P1- A better explanation for a certain phenomenon makes the least unsupported assumptions to explain a particular phenomenom.

P2- My explanation of Mohammad's prophecy does not involve natural laws we don't a know or the existence of God and angels. Whereas, Pro's explanation does to a great degree.

Conclusion: My explanation of Mohammad's prophecy is a better explanation than Pro's.

It is important to note that my naturalistic explanation is not there to "invalidate" Pro's but simply to provide a better alternative, and this has been achieved given that Pro has failed to support his naturalistic explanation with empirical evidence but relied on what seems to be unknown laws and mysteries.

CITATIONS

[1] Friedmann, Yohanan (2003). Prophecy Continuous: Aspects of Ahmadi Religious Thought and Its Medieval Background. Oxford University Press. p. 21.
[2] "Pathological lying, accusation, and swindling." W Healy, MT Healy - Criminal Science Monographs - JSTOR.
[3] Terrillon, J.; Marques-Bonham, S. (2001). "Does Recurrent Isolated Sleep Paralysis Involve More Than Cognitive Neurosciences?". Journal of Scientific Exploration 15: 97–123.
IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

Assalamualaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Liar, Deluded, or the Prophet of God?

According to A.1.4 on the NDRE Lv.1.5 (Strict) reference, I will send an 18 minute video regarding this very argument.[1]

Con stated: "Mohammad could be partially legendary, as in someone who has many false stories about his prophecy although he existed as a historic figure with a different prophecy."

Rebuttal: I already stated before last round, assuming the All-Knowing All-Wise God exists, He would never choose a person who is affected by delusion or someone who would lie to carry the word of God and proclaim it to the people. Therefore, the third classification is also exclusive. A person cannot lie or be deluded and also be a prophet carrying God's message to the world. This would infact, lessen God Himself. So Muhammad (saw) cannot be a person who creates false stories about himself and his prophecy even though he had a different 'prophecy' (from God assuming) altogether.

Con stated: "It is an unrealistic assumption that people are always either completely deluded or lying about a particular matter."

Rebuttal: According to testthemessage.com[2] it is written, "It is not possible for an individual to be both a liar and be deluded. Lying is something done with intent whereas a delusion stems from an individual’s belief of an altered reality. The two are diametrically opposed phenomena. So it is logically impossible, as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not have been convinced that he was speaking the truth and yet it was based on falsehood and at the same time pretend to be speaking the truth but yet it being based on a lie!" It is common sense here on out.

Regarding Con's analogy, if the person had to make up a false story to convince others that the clowns exist in their special operation room, then we can reasonably assume that the person isn't deluded, cause he is consciously and intentionally forming a lie even though he knows the room and the clowns don't exist, therefore his story of the clowns are also lies. He's either completely deluded, or completely dishonest.

Con has to disprove the reasonable arguments mentioned in the video regarding the prophethood of Muhammad (saw), whether he was a liar, he was deluded, or he was speaking the truth. What was mentioned in the video is reasonable proof for the prophethood of Muhammad (saw).

Sleep Paralysis

Now before I continue, I would like to state that Con is using his entire argument of sleep paralysis based upon testimony of Hadith, and Hadith are largely unreliable as accurate historical facts and documents, therefore Con rests his case entirely on something that essentially is impossible to prove.

Everything that is created in this world serves a purpose, as is the Islamic belief. Assuming God exists, He would create ways to communicate, directly and indirectly with His servants (humans) in this life. There are countless forms reported by people who have witnessed a divine communication from Almighty God, whether it be a vision, dream, a sign, etc.

Con stated: Pro conceded that Mohammad had Sleep Paralysis but claimed that it also had a supernatural factor without providing any empirical evidence for the role of God or Angels in such event. I see no reason, therefore, to accept that an Angel caused this or was involved in this.

Rebuttal: Con fails to erode the basis of my argument because I am open to accepting his theory that the the way he felt during his revelations were similar feelings to that of those of sleep paralysis victims. Proving whether it was an Angel or God is a completely different argument altogether, Con is just bringing this in to further support his argument. Sleep paralysis is described as what a person is feeling and going through when their body shuts down yet the consciousness still remains awake as a person falls to sleep. Con needs to prove that this feeling and state cannot be reproduced in another way besides naturally falling to sleep. The feelings that Muhammad (saw) recieved during his revelations could definitely have been similar to the feelings of sleep paralysis, but it doesn't prove, nor disprove that there was a supernatural factor. Proof that it was a supernatural factor however clearly outweighs the contrary, seeing the abundance of success and legitimacy of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw). I am not here to prove that God sent an Angel down to Muhammad (saw), I am here to prove his prophethood, the argument that I am proposing for sleep paralysis is just possibility, like Con's theory.

Traits of Muhammad

Con stated: "This debate is not on whether Mohammad had the traits of a Prophet, but whether he actually was a Prophet."

Rebuttal: Does not Con understand his own debate? In order for me to prove that Muhammad (saw) was a true prophet of God, listing the usual qualities that are found with an expected prophet is acceptable and reasonable proof for the prophethood of Muhammad (saw). If these qualities were not existant with his apparent nature, he definitely could never have been a prophet. This however, is not the case. Muhammad (saw) possesses all the inherent traits and qualities that an ideal prophet would possess, therefore adding to the reasonability that Muhammad (saw) was a prophet. You cannot deny this.

Epistemological Argument from Naturalistic Explanations

Whatever Con likes to think. God is just the super part of supernatural. Everything that happens naturally in this universe, God is the final ultimate controlling power of it. That star exploded hundreds of light years away? The natural explanation, a nova, of course, that is science. The supernatural explanation? That is how God designed stars to begin with, they form, they release energy, then they die and explode. It follows the laws created by Him from the very beginning.

Proof

My objective is to provide proof and evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that supports Muhammad (saw) being one of the prophets of God. Any proof that is logical and consistent with being a prophet adds to the legitimacy of Muhammad's (saw) prophethood.

1. As seen in the video, Hamza supports that Muhammad (saw) could not have been a liar, nor could he have been deluded, because it is logically inconsistent with who he is and what he went through and has done, therefore, the only logical explanation is that he was certainly speaking the truth about his prophethood. All of this adds up to the legitimacy of his prophethood.

2. All the inherent qualities and traits that I presented are widespread accepted perspectived regarding Muhammad (saw), not only by Muslims, but even non-Muslims. Even during the time of Muhammad (saw), his enemies knew he was truthful and honest.

Thomas Carlyle in his ‘On Heroes and Hero Worship and The Heroic History’ wrote:
“The man’s words were not false, nor his workings here below…a fiery mass of Life cast up from the great bosom of Nature herself. To kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered it so.”[3]

3. A prophet is a man of God sent to a corrupted people in order to reform them and bring about a spiritual revolution. Now to prove whether Muhammad (saw) is a man of God, we know that he was sent to a corrupted people, Mecca and pre-Islamic Arabia. If you read my brief history that I wrote at the start of the debate, you will know that Mecca and all of Arabia, as well as the rest of the world, were living under corrupted practices and understandings, if compared with modern society, would be horrendous. Muhammad (saw) came and established the religion of Islam, the world's 2nd largest religion, as well as the fastest growing religion according to the Guinnes Book of World Records. Muhammad (saw) came and reformed all of Arabia, including Mecca, and brought a complete spiritual revolution. Where idolatry was once practiced at the Ka'aba by the people, the concept of pure monotheism replaced it and the teachings of Muhammad (saw) completely rejevenated the people, spiritually, morally, and secularly.

Dr. William Draper in ‘History of Intellectual Development of Europe’ wrote:
“Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race… To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.”[4]

4. Muhammad (saw) is one of the world's most influential people in all of history. Michael H. Hart however, lists Muhammad (saw) as the #1 most influential person in all of history, stating that he was the only man in history to be supremely successful in both the religious and secular realms.[5]

5. Many prophets have brought books, Muhammad's (saw) own book revealed to him was the Holy Qur'an, and with this book has come countless miracles. Let us name some:
>The Qur'an itself means in English, "The Most-Recited". This is a miracle because the Qur'an is the most read/recited book in the entire world.
>Millions of people around the world, young and old, have memorized the Qur'an cover to cover, therefore, the Qur'an can never be gone from the face of the Earth, it has Divine protection.
>The Qur'an has been preserved without any addition/omission since it was revealed 1,400 years ago, again, Divine protection.
>It contains numerous scientific miracles that prove its authenticity, something Muhammad (saw) possibly could not have known or guessed from previous known sciences.

6. Every prophet of God is successful. Islam is one of the most powerful religions on Earth, need I say more?

All of this and more, shows, without any doubt, that Muhammad (saw) was indeed a prophet of God.

Wasalam

Sources:
[1]
[2] http://www.testthemessage.com...
[3] http://www.gutenberg.org...
[4] http://www.gutenberg.org...
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
NiqashMotawadi3

Con

DISCLAIMER


Pro's performance in this debate was utterly disappointing. His "reasonable proof" for Mohammad can be summarized as logical fallacies, baseless assertions and non-trusted citations, although the BoP is solely on him to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mohammad is the Prophet of God.


REBUTTAL

Liar, Deluded or the Prophet of God

Pro argues, 'According to testthemessage.com it is written, "It is not possible for an individual to be both a liar and be deluded. Lying is something done with intent whereas a delusion stems from an individual’s belief of an altered reality. The two are diametrically opposed phenomena."

Rebuttal: In his academic work on pathological liars, Koppen M. Ueber explains, "On closer inspection we find that the liar is no longer free, he has ceased to be master of his own lies, the lie has won power over him, it has the worth of a real experience. In the final stage of the evolution of the pathological lie, it cannot be differentiated from delusion[1]." In other words, a pathological liar could be also deluded provided that some of his lies "win over him" and evolve into delusions, although he remains a pathological liar. This gray area between delusions and lies is also addressed by Powell, Gudjonsson and Mullen in their academic work which describes how the "final stage of compulsive lying cannot be differentiated from a delusion[2]." I also offered two other peer-reviewed studies arguing that lies and delusions are not "two diametrically opposed phenomena". Pro has ignored those and insisted on using testthemessage.com, which is not an academic source, but an Islamic website with no academic accreditation.

In response to Mohammad being partially legendary, Pro claims, "Muhammad (saw) cannot be a person who creates false stories about himself and his prophecy even though he had a different 'prophecy' (from God assuming) altogether."

Rebuttal: Being partially legendary does not mean that Mohammad is the one creating false stories about himself. On the contrary, it implies that our knowledge of Mohammad was distorted by people who dehumanized him or added fables to his biography.

--
Pro presented a video to provide evidence:

1- The video falsely describes the criteria of being deluded, claiming that Mohammad shows no signs of being deluded, when in fact a patient with a delusional disorder might be highly-functioning in daily life with no effect on his IQ or any indications of bizarre behaviors[3].

2- The video offers no proof that Mohammad never lied in his life, but only makes this assumption because Mohammad was called "honest" according to the Islamic narrative, and this is a leap of faith.
.--

In summary, the premises P1, P2 and P3 have not been established as true. P1 is a false trilemma while P2 and P3 were not established as historic facts.

--

On Pro's other "proofs" for Mohammad's prophecy

Pro claims, "All the inherent qualities and traits that I presented are widespread accepted perspectives regarding Muhammad (saw), not only by Muslims, but even non-Muslims."

Rebuttal: I suppose that Abdullah Al-Qasemi, Ali Dashti, Marcus Dods, Samuel Marinus Zwemer and many other Non-Muslims are simply figments of my imagination, given that they seem to have very different opinions on the qualities and traits of Mohammad.

Pro argues, "The Qur'an itself means in English, "The Most-Recited". This is a miracle because the Qur'an is the most read/recited book in the entire world."

Rebuttal: The Qur'an actually means "The Recitation" in English[4]. And "Qur'an is the most read/recited book in the entire world" is simply a baseless assertion.

Pro further argues, "Millions of people around the world, young and old, have memorized the Qur'an cover to cover, therefore, the Qur'an can never be gone from the face of the Earth, it has Divine protection."

Rebuttal: Isn't it more reasonable to deduce that the Qur'an did not go (or would not go) from the face of the Earth because "millions of people around the world, young and old, have memorized" it?

Pro cites Dr. William Draper out of context: “To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.”

Rebuttal: The sentence that comes directly after the sentence Pro provided says, "Like many of the Christian monks, Mohammed retired to the solitude of the desert, and, devoting himself to meditation, fasting, and prayer, became the victim of cerebral disorder[5]." Therefore, Dr. William Draper is actually saying that Mohammad was deluded (if not mentally unstable) given that he had a cerebral disorder. The previous sentence simply suggested that Mohammad's popularity "may perhaps" make his title as the "Messenger of God" convincing to some people, but Dr. Draper claims as a fact that Mohammad was actually deluded (if not insane).

Pro cites Thomas Carlyle,.

Rebuttal: Thomas Carlye's works are not peer-reviewed or academic, especially "On Heroes, Hero-Worship And The Heroic In History" which is classified as historic fiction, given that the book is simply a collection of lectures in the Victorian Era given by the author in which he praises and glorifies mythical and historic figures such as Pagan deities like Odin without any historic evidence.

Pro argues, "[The Qur'an] contains numerous scientific miracles that prove its authenticity, something Muhammad (saw) possibly could not have known or guessed from previous known sciences."

Rebuttal: None are provided by Pro, though.

Pro argues, "The Qur'an has been preserved without any addition/omission since it was revealed 1,400 years ago, again, Divine protection."

Rebuttal: Pro has not provided any citation or proof for such an extraordinary claim, when there exists multitudes of contrary evidence. For instance, Alford T. Welsh, a religious studies professor and published author, claims that Ibn Masoud's manuscript has less chapters than the Uthmānic Codex, including many textual deviations and discrepancies in its content[6]. Ibn Warraq, a professor of philosophy and Islamic studies, quotes in his book Caliph Umar's son Abdullah saying, "Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available[7]."

Pro argues, "A prophet is a man of God sent to a corrupted people in order to reform them and bring about a spiritual revolution."

Rebuttal: Many historic figures resulted in revolutions that enhanced their societies such as Genghis Khan who is considered a legendary leader due to uniting the Mongols and establishing a political system based on organization and an accepted set of morals[7]. However, successful leadership and reformation do not entail divine inspiration. We have no proof that Mohammad's theological claims are true. Mohammad could be a false prophet and yet a great revolutionist. I don't see how that is impossible.

Pro finally argues, "Every prophet of God is successful. Islam is one of the most powerful religions on Earth, need I say more?"

Rebuttal: This is a textbook example of an Ad Populum (appeal to popularity) logical fallacy. Prophet Joseph Smith was successful and Mormonism is one of the most powerful and rising religions on Earth, but its popularity has nothing to do with its truthfulness or the authenticity of its prophet, for that matter. It's also self-contradictory for an Ahmadi to argue from popularity when the prophet of his sect (who Ahmadis believe came after Mohammad), was not popular to the extent that Ahmadis till this day remain a minority.

--

Best Explanation Model Argument

Pro claims, "I would like to state that Con is using his entire argument of sleep paralysis based upon testimony of Hadith, and Hadith are largely unreliable as accurate historical facts and documents, therefore Con rests his case entirely on something that essentially is impossible to prove."

Rebuttal: Except that I took that Hadith from Pro's narrative of Mohammad's life which cited sources that used that particular Hadith as the only account of an angel meeting Mohammad in the cave of Hira; a story which even Pro himself mentioned in Round 1. If this Hadith is unreliable, then this means Pro based his historic account in Round 1 on unreliable sources with prior knowledge.

Pro remarks, "The feelings that Muhammad (saw) received during his revelations could definitely have been similar to the feelings of sleep paralysis, but it doesn't prove, nor disprove that there was a supernatural factor."

Rebuttal: I twice exclaimed that my ambition is not to disprove the supernatural factor, but to show that we can explain Mohammad's experiences without any supernatural factor, which makes the supernatural factor a positive claim that Pro needs to prove.


SUMMARY

Pro did not satisfy his BoP in his final round, but instead used more fallacious arguments to argue for his position. He should say "As Agreed" in the final round according to the rules.

I thank Pro for participating
It was at least interesting.


CITATIONS

[1] Koppen M. Ueber die pathologische Luge (Pseudo-logia phantastica). Charite-Annalen.
[2] Powell, G. E., Gudjonsson, G. H. and Mullen, P.(1983). Application of the Guilty Knowledge Technique in a Case of Pseudologia Fantastica. Personality and Individual Differences, 4, 141 146
[3] Winokur, George."Comprehensive Psychiatry-Delusional Disorder"American Psychiatric Association. 1977. p 513.

[4] Nasr, Seyyed Hossein (2007). "Qur'an". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Retrieved 2007-11-04.
[5] History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, Volume I (of 2), by John William Draper. Online source: http://www.gutenberg.org...
[6] A. T. Welch, in C. E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, B. Lewis & C. Pellat (eds.), The Encyclopaedia of Islam, New Edition, Volume 5: Khe. pp.404-406.
[7] Ibn Warraq, ‘Introduction’, p.14.
[8] Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world. JMI Weatherford - 2004.

IslamAhmadiyya

Pro

IslamAhmadiyya forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by BiggBoss 3 years ago
BiggBoss
my vote goes for NiqashMotawadi
Posted by Somecrap 3 years ago
Somecrap
i think the debate arguments r week because we r talking about history (testimonies) of the prophet (), if u taking it as a authentic source for argument somebody else will disagree with u, so its not the best way to start with.
secondly for every phenomena there is several explanations and theories
,3 as pro says :
"there will obviously be a natural explanation as well, if you read my previous refutations regarding Con's premises. The same chemicals that are released in sleep paralysis victims could have been used by God as well. And it is not only sleep paralysis, but God can reveal Himself to people in dreams as well. And we all know what dreams are, dreams also have natural explanations. But because it has a natural explanation does NOT invalidate the fact that there could be a supernatural cause behind it.'
so first of all u cant determine Gods workings through scientific way cuz its beyond that, u can examine the effects but cant determine for sure what caused it.

for muslims the answer is in the quran 59:21
"If We had sent down this Qur'an upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled and coming apart from fear of Allah. And these examples We present to the people that perhaps they will give thought."
now think what it will do on humen being...

for non-muslims its the sleep thing... so now u guys should take from what we have today not 1400 years ago... if u were debating about the quran it would do a better job, anyway good debate we got here things to ponder on.
Posted by Artur 3 years ago
Artur
I have read 1, 2 second rounds now, later I will read full.

good job Niqash, there are lots of things which can be learnt from you.
Posted by TG2333 3 years ago
TG2333
NIqash i don't think you can debate of this because you don't have a religion in the first place, i mean if you were a christian then yes this would explain why you created this debate, but your not so this won't really get you anything
Posted by NiqashMotawadi3 3 years ago
NiqashMotawadi3
Beyond a reasonable doubt is different than beyond a shadow of doubt. The former requires less certainty, indeed.
Posted by Mahmoud.Y 3 years ago
Mahmoud.Y
Beyond a shadow of a doubt? How can one prove God beyond a shadow of a doubt to prove he has messengers?
Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Mohammed they can all be considered great men but prophets? That can only be proven through their scripture and that is even questionable.
That's why they call if faith rather than science. :p
One can argue islam is the best of the supposed abrahamic religions but that Mohammed is the messenger can't be PROVEN empirically except if we can include miricales which debunks the whole thing.
I think what you ask is immposible.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 3 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
NiqashMotawadi3IslamAhmadiyyaTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to meet his BOP with his arguments and so points for arguments go to Con. Pro's arguments fail for various reasons like pointed out by Con that they are based on presuppositions "But what I want to clarify is that if we accept the fact that God revealed to Muhammad (saw), " and fallacies. Conduct points go to Con as Pro, did not adhere to the rules set out and Pro said in round two Con had did not answer his questions about the trilemma, this was disingenuous. Source Points go to Con as according to the rules set out for the debate. Interesting debate, but a clear winner.
Vote Placed by InVinoVeritas 3 years ago
InVinoVeritas
NiqashMotawadi3IslamAhmadiyyaTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF, against Niqashian Debating Regulations and Etiquette Level 1.5 (Strict)