The Instigator
Pro (for)
4 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
0 Points

Muhammad was a sincere person

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/26/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,460 times Debate No: 23884
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)




= = = = = INTRODUCTION = = = = =

This debate is about the sincerity of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), regarded as a Prophet in Islam. I will be arguing that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a sincere person in his actions and in his words, before and after his prophethood. My opponent will be arguing that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was not a sincere person. It is not sufficient for my opponent to only refute my arguments, but must also present a case. The burden of proof is shared.

= = = = = DEFINITIONS = = = = =

sin·cer·i·ty  [sin-ser-i-tee]


freedom from deceit, hypocrisy, or duplicity; probity in intention or in communicating;

per·son   [pur-suhn]


a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.

A sincere person is someone who is truthful and acts (in action) as he truly feels. It is mainly to not employ double standards (hypocrisy, duplicity) and to be free from deception. It is mainly two things:

1. Trustworthiness, honesty etc

2. Freedom from hypocrisy, double standards etc

To prove the resolution to be true, I must show that the two points listed above are true based on the definition of sincerity. I have sufficiently defined the resolution, no semantics please.

= = = = = GUIDELINES = = = = =

I (and if my opponent wants to use) have to use the hadith from this website. The two most authentic collections of hadith are Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, so those ones have higher authority then others (Al-Bukhari having the most authority).

The complete collection (all volumes) of Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim can be found in this link:

One can find all the chapters of the Quran (must use Yusuf Ali's interpretation) by changing the number in the URL. For example the URL for chapter 2 of the Quran is:

and the URL is for Chapter 7 of the Quran is:

The only difference between the chapters are the numbers, one is 002 (for chapter 2) and the other 007 (for chapter 7).

Since Muhammad's (peace and blessings be upon him) name will be mentioned a lot, many characters will used up from saying 'peace and blessings be upon him' (for me at least). For this debate, the phrase 'peace and blessings be upon him' will be abbreviated to the single symbol ℗.

peace and blessings be upon him = ℗

= = = = = DEBATE FORMAT = = = = =

1. First Round is for acceptance only

2. Opening Arguments

3. Rebuttals/Arguments

4. Closing statements/Rebuttals



I accept the debate. I also accept all noted definitions and terms of debate.
Debate Round No. 1


= = = = = = => CONTENTIONS <= = = = = = =

To determine the sincerity of Muhammad℗, I will show authentic historical events in his life which outline his truthfulness and his freedom from hypocrisy and deceit. Cumulatively all these events and the general description of his mission will prove that we was truly a sincere person.

------> Truthfulness and Honesty <------

Before Muhammad℗ declared prophethood, he was known to be an honest and truthful person. One story of Muhammad's℗ status due to his honesty is that of the Black stone. The Kaaba which at the time was a place of pagan worship had undergone renovations due to a fire. The Black stone was removed due to the renovations and none of the tribe leaders could decide who would take the honour of putting it back such a precious object. They decided that the first man to walk through the gates would make the decision of who to put it back. This man was Muhammad℗ and all members gave him the honour of placing the stone back due to his honesty and upright character.

The first man to pass through the gate happened to be Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, whom they called “The Trustworthy One”.After listening to their claims he thought for a moment and said “bring me a piece cloth.” After he was given one, he spread it on the ground and placed the Black stone in the center. He had the tribal leaders hold the corners of the cloth and carry the Black stone to its spot. Then the Prophet himself set it in place. All the tribes were satisfied, and work continued with no further disputes[1]

==Sahih Muslim Book 1 Hadith 406==

It is reported on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that when this verse was revealed:" And warn thy nearest kindred" (and thy group of selected people among them) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) set off till he climbed Safa' and called loudly: Be on your guard! They said: Who is it calling aloud? They said: Muhammad. They gathered round him, and he said: O sons of so and so, O sons of so and so, O sons of 'Abd Manaf, O sons of 'Abd al-Muttalib, and they gathered around him. He (the Apostle) said: If I were to inform you that there were horsemen emerging out of the foot of this mountain, would you believe me? They said: We have not experienced any lie from you. ................

Muhammad℗ gathered all the people from the Quraish by making the emergency call and asked them if they would believe him if he said that an army was going to attack them right now. They had to believe him because he has never lied to them, Muhammad℗ was an honest and trustworthy person his whole life, before he declared to be a prophet. All the people of Quraish attested to this.

==Sahih Al-Bukhari Book 2 Volume 18 Hadith 153==

Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba:

The sun eclipsed in the life-time of Allah's Apostle on the day when (his son) Ibrahim died. So the people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of Ibrahim. Allah's Apostle said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death or life (i.e. birth) of some-one. When you see the eclipse pray and invoke Allah.

One day the sun eclipsed on the same day Muhammad's℗ son Ibrahim died. This was after Muhammad℗ declared prophethood. People began to say that the sun eclipsed because of the death of Muhammad's℗ son, that the sun was sad etc.

Muhammad℗ easily could have easily used this as an oppurtunity to win the hearts and minds of people and take advantage of the circumstance, and this is exactly what a lying false prophet would have done. However, Muhammad℗ tells them the truth, namely that the eclipse has nothing to do with him, and that the sun doesn't eclipse for the death or birth of anyone. This is yet another example of Muhammad's℗ honesty.

------> Freedom from Hypocrisy and Double Standards <------

==Sahih Al-Bukhari Book 4 Volume 56 Hadith 681==

Narrated 'Aisha:

.........."What destroyed the nations preceding you, was that if a noble amongst them stole, they would forgive him, and if a poor person amongst them stole, they would inflict Allah's Legal punishment on him. By Allah, if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad stole, I would cut off her hand."

This hadith is very significant. Muhammad℗ is clearly talking about equality with regards to punishments when crimes are commited and treating everyone the same. If a rich person steals or commits murder, he should be inflicted with the same punishment that a poor person would be inflicted with. Muhammad℗ even says that if his daughter stole, he would cut off her hand (with regards to Islamic law). This shows that Muhammad℗ is free from double standards and hypocrisy, he treats everyone equally.

The Quraish tried to bribe Muhammad℗ numerous times into stopping his prophethood. Muhammad℗ refused because that is not what he was after. He was truly after spreading the message of Islam.

They offered money, political power, fame, and material luxuries that, in worldly terms, many of today’s groups would blindly leap towards, but the Prophet (saaw) not only rejected them but condemned them in the harshest of tones.” [2]

Many non-muslims who wrote books and have studied the life and teachings of Muhammad℗ have attested to the sincerity and honesty of Muhammad℗.

It is strongly corroborative of Mahomet's sincerity that the earliest converts to Islam were not only of upright character, but his own bosom friends and people of his household; who, intimately acquainted with his private life, could not fail otherwise to have detected those discrepancies which ever more or less exist between the professions of the hypocritical deceiver abroad and his actions at home.” [3]

The genuineness and sincerity of Mohammed's piety, and the honesty of his belief in his religious call, are indisputable.” [4]

Even the biggest critics, namely Answering Islam concede that Muhammad℗ was a sincere person who truly believed what he was preaching:

We can safely reject the view that Muhammad was a deliberate impostor. Throughout the twenty-three year period of his assumed ministry, he held to the unflinching conviction that he was called to be a prophet and that the revelations he was receiving were coming to him from above.” [5]

In conclusion, Muhammad℗ was a truthful person free from hypocrisy and double standards, in other words he was sincere. When one analyzes his life and teachings, any other conclusion seems to create more problems than it solves (as W.G put it).

The resolution is affirmed, Muhammad℗ was a sincere person.

Sources [1](pg 162) [2]

The Life of Mahomet, William Muir pg 54 [3]

Mohammed: The Man and his Faith, Tor Andrae pg 185 [4] [5]



Re: Truthfulness and Honesty:

The opponent emphasizes the fact that "he was known to be an honest and truthful person." Then he provides a story that evidences just that, that he was KNOWN as an honest and truthful person. This does not make him honest and truthful. Those who cannot see a man's lies with assume he is honest; this assumption, however, does not make the man any more honest.

When Muhammad's son Ibrihim dies, he had, indeed, ALREADY DECLARED PROPHETHOOD. He had already won the hearts and minds of those around him, proclaiming that he was a prophet, messenger of Allah. Furthermore, if Muhammad had, in fact, told the people that an eclipse signifies death, then people would have seen it as flawed, since future deaths would have corresponded with eclipses. Stating this would not have "won the hearts and minds of people" in the long run; rather, it would have caused controversy over his prophethood, due to likely inconsistencies.

Re: Freedom from Hypocrisy and Double Standards

Muhammad certainly did not advocate treating all people the same. This will be evidenced in my later arguments. Moreover, of course Muhammad did not give into bribes from the Quraish; he was indulging in the power and responsibility of prophethood.

The opponent goes on to give more references from various people about his sincerity. What could have prompted them to give such praise to him? Oh, right! They believed that he was a prophet. Of course, based on the assertion that he was a prophet, his statements are those of God. Later on, we will look into this further.

Argument 1: Lies

Muhammad said: "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" [Ahmad, 6.459. H]

ALSO: "Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband." [Sahih Muslim 32:6303]

Therefore, based on these two excerpts, he believes that lying does not necessarily have to be wrong. If he does not think that the stated exceptions are wrong, then he would have had no reason to not use them himself. And if he used these exceptions himself, then he is not a truly honest person. Based on definition, a completely honest person does not lie under any circumstances. A lying honest man is an oxymoron.

"But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed." [Qur'an (33:37)]

Allah conveniently commanded this at the time that Muhammad had lustful feelings toward his step-daughter, Zaynab. This conflicted with local customs, but this command overturned the customs and made it permissible. Muhammad then married Zaynab and divorced her mother.

"You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased" [Qur'an (33:51)]

This divine "command" came about after Muhammad's wives were angry because Muhammad had been sleeping with their Christian slave girl, Mary the Copt. This conveniently made Muhammad's selfish act of disloyalty to his wives allowable.

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." [Qur'an (4:24)]

So, Muhammad was given "permission from Allah" to have sex with married slaves. Muhammad named many of Allah's commands that worked in his favor to, basically, enhance his sex life.

These commands that enhanced Muhammad's sexual opportunities do not necessarily mean that Muhammad is a false prophet... But it indicates that he probably stated divine commands that were not in fact divine commands and simply favored him.

Argument 2: Double standards

Muhammad said: "O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense." [Sahih Muslim, Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, tr., Number 142.]

Muhammad said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind." [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Dr. Muhammad Matraji, tr., Number 2658.]

Conclusion: Muhammad believed women were subordinates intellectually.

Muhammad said: "O women! Give to charity, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women." The women asked, "O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He said: "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious man astray." [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Dr. Muhammad Matraji, tr. (New Delhi: Islamic Book Service, 2002), Number 1052

Conclusion: Muhammad believes that a majority of Hell is reserved for women.

"I entered the mosque and saw Abu Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu said, 'We went out with Allah's messenger for the Ghazwa (attack upon) Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said 'How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah's messenger while he is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist.'" [Hadith, Vol. 5-#459]

Conclusion: Muhammad did not say to not rape of female prisoners of war. Rather, he said to not perform coitus interruptus and to complete the sexual act. This is clearly indicative of double standards... female prisoners of war can be raped, but other females cannot be raped.

Let it be noted that slaves under Muhammad had limited rights. They would have to marry the master if the master wills it [Malik ibn Anas, vol. 2, page 155], slaves could not choose their own mates for marriage [Ibn Hazm, vol. 6, part 9], and Slaves are as helpless before their masters as idols are before God [Sura 16:77].


In conclusion, Muhammad was not a sincere, honest person. It is clearly evident that he had double standards and that he was not completely honest. The resolution is deemed null.
Debate Round No. 2


Violation of the Debate Format

I stated in R1 that R2 was just for opening arguments. The reason why R2 is for opening arguments only is because it is unfair for me who cannot present a rebuttal to Con's case in R2 since I have nothing to respond to. My opponent has accepted all my debate rules and as such this is reprehensible. Voters should take this into consideration while voting.

= = = = => DEFENSE <= = = = =

1. Truthfulness and Honesty

The first paragraph of my opponent's response to my argument is actually a concession of one of my points. He says:

Then he provides a story that evidences just that, that he was KNOWN as an honest and truthful person. This does not make him honest and truthful.

My opponent then says that the fact that everyone in Quraish knew Muhammad℗ to be an honest and truthful indivual doesn't make him truthful when it in fact is proof of the honesty of Muhammad℗. My opponent says that people assume people to be honest if they don't know them very well which is false. People don't call a person trustworthy and honest for absolutely no reason. Indeed, the fact that the Quraish admitted that Muhammad℗ never told a lie to anyone of them is conclusive.

In his second paragraph, my opponent says that the fact that Muhammad℗ declared prophethood means that he had already won the hearts and minds of the people. He states:

When Muhammad's son Ibrihim dies, he had, indeed, ALREADY DECLARED PROPHETHOOD. He had already won the hearts and minds of those around him, proclaiming that he was a prophet, messenger of Allah.

My opponent's reasoning is flawed. Simply because Muhammd℗ declared prophethood, it doesn't mean that everyone would support him and believe him. In fact he was severly persecuted for declaring prophethood and had to go through many trials and difficulties. My opponent says that if Muhammad℗ had said that the eclipse was due to the death of one his child future deaths would have turned of up false and lead to controversy. 2 points:

--> Muhammad's℗ status and power would have increased . A dark supernatural phenomena occuring precisely at the time his son dies was a perfect oppurtunity to easily elevate one's position.

--> If Muhammad℗ believed he was a false prophet, he wouldn't care if no supernatural miracle occurs when he dies because he is only in it for himself and his current life. However, to lift all confusions that might occur later on, he immediately tells the truth.

2. Freedom from hypocrisy and double standards

My opponent doesn't actually address and respond to the arguments I have made in this section. He makes another key concession. He admits that Muhammad℗ did not accept the bribes that the people of Quraish were making to him. This shows that Muhammad℗ was much more interested in spreading Islam rather than obtaining power and wealth. He states:

of course did not give into bribes from the Quraish; he was indulging in the power and responsibility of prophethood.

My opponent said that he was indulging from the power of prophethood. These bribes were being offered when Muhammad℗ was gaining followers in Mecca (being persecuted) for declaring and maintaing prophethood. If Muhammad℗ was after wealth and status, he easily could have accepted the offers of the Quraish, but he rejected them and went on to go through much hardship and trials.

My opponent then says my other sources (some polemical) which agree and confirm the sincerity of Muhammad℗ are invalid, because they believe he was a prophet. Nowhere have they stated that they believe that Muhammad℗ was a prophet. Answering Islam in particular is anti-Islam yet believe Muhammad℗ was sincere.

= = = = = => REBUTTALS <= = = = = =

1. Lies

My opponent's first argument against the sincerity of Muhammad℗ was that he allowed lying in three occasions and he cites an authentic hadith. My opponent's argument isn't actually an argument against the honesty of Muhammd℗. Surely when we are speaking of the term 'lying' especially in the context of this debate, we are speaking about lying which is morally reprehensible.A point about each one:

--> The first case is for war. In war, if the enemy catches a soldier and asks him for information, he will give him false information. One major deception tactic used in WWII was Operation Fortitude [1]. This isn't something that is morally reprehensible but is common in warfare.

--> The second is to bring peace among people who are seriously fighting with each other. It is justified to make a lie about the other so that they become friends once again. There are absolutely no consequences. Even after they realize they have been lied to, they will forget about it, since their bitter feelings have already dissapeared by then.

--> The third would not even be seen as lying especially in the West. One example of this 'lying' would be when you tell your wife in the evening coming home from work “Wow honey, is it still morning?” She says “No it is evening, why would you say that?” You say “Oh sorry, your face was shining so brightly that I thought it was still morning” she smiles and is happy. Obviously this is something said to bolster love and good feelings even though it isn't the cold dull hard facts.

Allah conveniently commanded this at the time that Muhammad had lustful feelings toward his step-daughter, Zaynab. This conflicted with local customs, but this command overturned the customs and made it permissible.”

Muhammad℗ had known Zaynab since childhood and he even arranged the marriage with Zayd, so the claim that he had lustful feelings towards her is weak [2]. I ask my opponent, if Muhammad℗ had lustful feelings towards Zaynab, why would he arrange a marriage between her and another man instead of marrying her first?

These commands that enhanced Muhammad's sexual opportunities

My opponent's whole argument rests on the fact that Muhammad℗ lied about revelation in order to obtain women, increase sexual oppurtunities ect. Muhammad℗ could have obtained all the women he wanted, the Quraish offered Muhammad℗ all the women he wanted, he could have been a king but he rejected for Islam [3][4].

2. Double standards

My opponent quotes a hadith in which it says that most women will be in hell. This is simply because Islam teaches that there are many women, especially near the end times. One hadith to show why this is true.

==Sahih Muslim Book 34 Hadith 6452==

....the women would survive (and thus such a disparity would arise in the number of men and women) that there would be one man to look after fifty women.

Islam teaches that the number of men will be much less compared to women. Since there is so much women, it makes sense that many of them would go to hell since there is a lot of them. Islam also teaches that there will be many women in paradise since that there are many of them. Also even if it is true that the majority of women will go to hell, it isn't because they are women but because of their evil deeds.

==Sahih Muslim Book 4 Hadith 1926==

He then walked on till he came to the women and preached to them and admonished them, and asked them to give alms, for most of them are the fuel for Hell. A woman having a dark spot on the cheek stood up and said: Why is it so, Messenger of Allah? He said: For you grumble often and show ingratitude to your spouse. And then they began to give alms out of their ornaments such as their earrings and rings which they threw on to the cloth of Bilal.

Muhammad was only admonishing and making the women more conscious of their good deeds , charity and their religion. Muhammad℗ was only trying to make them more aware of Islam and rush to commit good deeds. Muhammad℗ always admonished his companions and gave numerous descriptions of hell fire to them, so why should this be any different with regards to women?

Key point

--> For my opponent's entire arguments, he hardly expanded or went into depth about any of the sources he cited. He only presented a hadith and said 'conclusion'.



1. Truthfulness and Honesty

Many of Muhammad's claims were unfalsifiable because they were stated to be the words of Allah, whom only Muhammad could communicate with. People had no way to properly label these sorts of statements as true or false, due to their unfalsifiability.

Muhammad was proclaimed to be a prophet and hence, people took the words he "passed on" from Allah as the truth, for a true prophet (as he proclaimed himself to be), in their view, cannot lie.

If, in fact, Muhammad was not "supported" by and "believed" by some, then not everyone viewed him as honest. This makes the opponent's argument fall apart. Clearly there were people who viewed him as untrustworthy, then, regardless of the presence of positive testimony in texts. These texts represent the views of some, not all. And, furthermore, third-person views of the self-proclaimed prophet Muhammad do not necessarily evidence that he was, in fact, honest.

Muhammad did not claim that the eclipse that happened at the time of his child's death was a divine coincidence, but this does not support claims that he is an honest person. Here is why: The claim that the phenomenon was divine would have hurt him in the future, if it were not in fact divine, since it would be unlikely that it would happen again in the case of the death of another one of his family members.

2. Freedom from hypocrisy and double standards

If Muhammad had accepted the bribes from the Quraish, he would have foiled his plan for power. He could easily be exposed for taking the bribes and his hidden agenda would have been made clear. And therefore, his claims of prophethood would have been retracted, and he would suffer the consequences of being a false prophet.

The opponent fails to see that Muhammad, even if he were after wealth and status, would not have taken the bribes, out of fear of exposure. He was a self-proclaimed prophet, and taking money from bribers would have taken away from his claims of prophethood.


1. Lies

The opponent comes up with a definition for lying which was not upheld in the first round of the debate. Readers should take note of this. The opponent's reference to the "moral reprehensibility" of lying is completely irrelevant to the debate. From the first round: Sincerity: (n) "freedom from deceit, hypocrisy, or duplicity; probity in intention or in communicating."

"Deceit," if we go by its first definition in the dictionary means "misrepresenting the truth."

Muhammad upheld lying (deceit) in three circumstances. Regardless of the justifications for the circumstances, the fact remains that Muhammad upheld the act of lying in some instances. This seriously favors the argument that he is not a sincere person. A sincere person does not uphold the act of lying. And we can assume that if he forgave such acts of lying, then he would feel free to commit them himself.

I'll drop the Zaynab argument due to the strength of the previous argument in this section.

2. When the women asked why there are mostly women going to hell, Muhammad did NOT say "because there are more of you." He said "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious man astray." (for citation see previous round argument)

Muhammad also said [cited in other argument]: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."
And this was dropped.

Muhammad did not justify his claims with the idea that there were more women. He stated that they had a greater tendency, as individuals, to commit sin. He also stated that they are deficient in the mind. These statements were unjustified by Muhammad and clearly untrue. As a prophet, his words were viewed as those of God, yet we see today that women are not intellectually deficient when compared to men.


The opponent avoided many key points. My "Lies" argument is the strongest, since it proves that Muhammad advocated lying, and the opponent is attempting to distort definitions to refute this argument.

Debate Round No. 3


Sources for R3 [1] [2] [3] [4]

- - - - - - - - - -

= = = = => DEFENSE <= = = = =

Throughout this debate, my opponent's responses to my case for the sincerity of Muhammad has been very inadequate, consisting of a few sentences. He has dropped a few points in R2, the majority of them in R3, and has conceded a number of points.

1. Truthfulness and Honesty

My opponent says that Muhammad℗ was said to be an honest person because he was a prophet and everyone had to believe he was honest. My opponent ignores the argument where the Quraish have said that Muhammad℗ has never told a lie to them. Clearly to never tell a lie encompasses before his prophethood. Drops and concessions:

→ My opponent conceded that Muhammad℗ was known to be a truthful person by the Quraish

→ My opponent drops my argument about the Black stone

→ My opponent drops my argument about Quraish saying that Muhammad has never lied to them

As for the eclipse, it is not as if every blood member of Muhammad's℗ family needs to have an eclipse every time one them dies. Some of Muhammad's ℗ family (such as his wife Khadija) have died and yet no one was suprised there was no eclipse. If Muhammad℗ attributed the eclipse to the death of his son, everyone would have believed him and everyone would have still believed him if no future eclipses occured yet he still tells the truth, a testimony to his honesty. My opponent then asserts that there could have been people who believed that he was dishonest but provides no evidence.

2. Freedom from hypocrisy and double standards

"If Muhammad had accepted the bribes from the Quraish, he would have foiled his plan for power. He could easily be exposed for taking the bribes and his hidden agenda would have been made clear."

My opponent is helping my case with these statements. First of all what plan for power? I already explained in R3 that Muhammad℗ could have been a king if he accepted the offers of the Quraish. He could have fulfilled his plan for power but refused to continue the seemingly dim and harsh future of prophethood.

See R3 Source 3 ctrl f → They offered Muhammad
See R3 Source 4 ctrl f
→ money and power

If Muhammad℗ was not a sincere person and only cared about wealth or power, he wouldn't care about being exposed for his true self because his only objective is to obtain power and wealth. My point stands. Drops and concessions:

My opponent drops the hadith which shows that Muhammad would treat everyone (even his daughter) the same with regards to legal punishments

My opponent drops the sources citing a number of non-muslims who have an understanding of the life of Muhammad which have attested to his sincerity and do not believe he was a prophet

He concedes that Muhammad℗ did not accept the bribes of Quraish

= = = = => REBUTTALS <= = = = =

1. Lies

My opponent claims that lying in this debate is not linked with morality and he tries to play semantics. However, I have defined my terms clearly! My opponent hasn't read my definition carefully. "Probity in intentions" clears up any qualms my opponent may have. Probity means having uprightness and strong moral principles, all rooted in morality[1][2]. Hence the phrase "Probity in intentions" means moral intentions. I have clearly shown in my R3 response why the 'lying' my opponent pointed is not remotely immoral but actually moral. 'Lying' in each of those circumstances produces positive and beneficial results which actually supports and affirms the resolution. Instead of playing semantics, my opponent should have tried to rebut my points. Since my opponent stated that this was his strongest argument, this proves detrimental to his case. Dropped points:

→ My opponent drops the rebuttal I gave to him about Zaynab

→ My opponent drops the rest of the charges against Muhammad of increasing his sexual opportunities since I said that he could have obtained all the women he wanted but refused for Islam

2. Double standards

My opponent has simply rehashed his argument without responding to my rebuttals. I said that Muhammad was addressing this specific group of women in order to make them more charitable and conscious with regards to the afterlife. He also admonished for the reason told in this hadith:

==Sahih Muslim Book 4 Hadith 1982==
...I saw Hell also. No such (abominable) sight have I ever seen as that which I saw today; and I observed that most of its inhabitants were women.....(Not for their disbelief in God) but for their ingratitude to their husbands and ingratitude to kindness. If you were to treat one of them kindly for ever, but if she later saw anything (displeasing) in you, she would say: i have never seen any good in you.

From this hadith we can clearly deduce that Muhammad was talking to specific women who were harsh on their husbands by mimimizing the good he has done and emphasisng the small bad that he may have done. If a woman isn't like this to her husband then obviously Muhammad isn't addressing her. He was only talking to a specific group of women who were this way, as a way of admonishing them as I explained earlier. Muhammad would admonish his companions. Two examples:

==Sahih Muslim Book 40 Hadith 6811==

Abil Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as seying: The fire which sons of Adam burn is only one-seventieth part of the Fire of Hell. His Companions said: By Allah, even ordinary fire would have been enough (to burn people). Thereupon he said: It is sixty-nine parts in excess of (the heat of) fire in this world each of them being equivalent to their heat.

==Sahih Bukhari Book 6 Volume 60 Hadith 145==

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet delivered a sermon the like of which I had never heard before. He said, "If you but knew what I know then you would have laughed little and wept much." On hearing that, the companions of the Prophet covered their faces and the sound of their weeping was heard.....

Muhammad admonished and made his companions more fearful Allah's punishments by giving descriptions of the hell fire etc.

"Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

My opponent takes the phrase deficiency as meaning that women in Islam are considered unintelligent which is false. Both men and women overall are regarded as equal in Islam, but each gender has its stronger points than the other one. In this case the testimony of a women is half to a man because in emotional cases such as rape, murder etc, the emotional side of a women is sure to have an effect on the objective truth. However, this same 'weakness' is a strength with regards to child care and empathy. A comprehensive study states:

females are more aware of

emotions than males while the latter are more adept at managing emotions than the

former, and that there are no significant differences in emotional-social intelligence

between the various ethnic groups that have been examined in North America.” [3]

Both have weak and strong points, but are overall equal.

I ask the audience to vote for me based on the grounds that my case was not thouroughly dealt with. You can see my opponent has dropped and conceded numerous points with regards to my case ,whereas I have addressed all of my opponent's points. My opponent also violated the format explicitly stated in the first round. For all these reasons, I urge a Pro vote.

Sources [1];[2];[3] it first says 'URL' not found press enter in web address area again



InVinoVeritas forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Noradrenergic 3 years ago
Do you have to write peace and blessings be upon him after each time his name is mentioned? Can't there be some goes without saying type agreement after the first one? Lol.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 4 years ago
Lol, I know very little about the Islamic faith. It would take a lot of research and typing for me to do another argument like this... :P
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
>>"Lol, sorry. Busy day. Nice debate, though."

Yes. Maybe, we can do this again another time when you aren't so busy.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 4 years ago
Lol, sorry. Busy day. Nice debate, though.
Posted by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
No problem.
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
Thanks for voting BTW
Posted by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
Oh, I missed that
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
Yes, I explained in the first round.
Posted by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
I'm guessing the P with a circle around it means "peace be upon him"?
Posted by Ahmed.M 4 years ago
I retract my sources from the comments since I have posted them in my R4 response. I don't want my opponent to use this as an excuse or for voters to have little to no doubts on my side with regards to violations of rules.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguments and conduct goes to Pro for Con's forfeit in the final round. Was a great debate otherwise.