The Instigator
peacenik
Pro (for)
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The Contender
D7omy2015
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Muhammad was not a prophet (I prefer to debate with a Muslim)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/4/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 702 times Debate No: 80523
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (0)

 

peacenik

Pro

Which Prophet advises his followers to drink water with feces? Not very Prophet like?

"I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (A018;): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda'ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual clothes and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (A018;) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything."
[Sunan Abi Dawud 67]
Source: http://sunnah.com...
D7omy2015

Con

Thanks for the debate I'am a Muslim and I'll be defending prophet Muhammad

1-you misinterpreted the hadith the prophet didn't tell to his companions to drink it, he said it's okay to perform ablution (wash your hands feet and arms) he said it's pure because the well isn't small and it isn't contaminated by little impurities check this site for more explanation,

http://www.onislam.net...

2-PRO must provide arguements against prophet Muhammad and he must provide references.

3- No trolling cussing backbiting or ad hominum attacks.

4-I as CON will try to disprove everyone of pros claims against the legitimacy of prophet Muhammad
Good luck and may the best man win
Debate Round No. 1
peacenik

Pro

Point 1 (responding to your rebuttal)
====================================
I know what ablution is. During ablution Muslims have to also put the water in their mouth. Washing hands and feet with feces is just as dangerous.

Muhammad also said:

"The Apostle of Allaah ( sal Allaahu alayhi wa sallam ) said: When there is enough water to fill two pitchers, it does not become impure."
[Sunan Abi Dawud 65]
Source: http://sunnah.com...

A pitcher is a jug, this means if there are feces in 2 of these Jugs, according to Muhammad it isnt impure.

Point 2 (goat ate quran verse)
====================================
If Islam is a religion of God then why would God allow verses of the Quran to be lost forever?

""The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it."
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5."
[Sunan Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944]
Source: Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944

Even Umar (2nd Muslim caliph) told his followers the verse is lost and that Muslims should still follow this verse even if its not in Quran:

`Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." `Umar added, "Surely Allah's Messenger (A018;) carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."
[Sahih al-Bukhari 6829]
Source: http://sunnah.com...
D7omy2015

Con

Okay thanks for replying

The rebuttel is in this site http://www.letmeturnthetables.com...

About the well you obviously haven't heard of it the bud'uh well is so large

As for 2 jugs this is simply wrong the scholars differ mostly say 2 buckets of water or More

I can't argue on hadiths as there many bring like criterias for a true prophet and write them down and we'll debate whether
they apply to Muhammad or not, also can you please state your beliefs in your rebuttel.
Debate Round No. 2
peacenik

Pro

Point 1 (responding to your rebuttal)
=============================
Regarding the hadith
""The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it."
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5."
[Sunan Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944]

The source is http://sunnah.com...

Hadith is considered Hasan (sound) due to various hadith mentiong that the quran verses about rajam (stoning to death) were lost. Hadith which mention that Quran verses were lost are:

"'Ibn Abbas (Muhammad;s cousin) said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book...."
[Sahih Muslim 1691 a]
Source: http://sunnah.com...

Hadith is consider Sahih (authentic) by Muslim scholars. 100's more like it, search the site.

Point 2 (which prophet allows his follows to rape hostages/captives in front of their husbands?)
=============================
"The Apostle of Allaah(A018;) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of Apostle of Allaah(A018;) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So, Allaah the exalted sent down the Qur"anic verse "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand posses." This is to say they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
[Sunan Abu Dawud - Book 12, Hadith 110]
Source: http://quranx.com...

More hadith showing Muhammad told his followers to have sex with captives:
http://sunnah.com...
http://sunnah.com...

The quran verse 4:24 was supposedly revealed by Allah to Muhammad to give proof to Muslims that having sex with captives is permissible in Islam. His followers didnt want to have sex with captives (as captives had husbands) but he pushed them to it and recommended it by claiming God allowed it through this verse.

Meaning of verse found in tafsir (books which explains meaning of quran verses and context) here:
http://www.qtafsir.com...

Tafsir ibn Kathir (in link above explaining verse 4:24) is the most authoritative and famous Tafsir book in the Muslim world right now. All tafsirsmention same thing.
D7omy2015

Con

Enough with the goat eating it was abrogated anyway and prophet Muhammad told them to not put them in the book

You obviously copied so much from anti Islam sites that you forgot to answer my question on what's ur belief

Check these two sites for captives

First prophet Muhammad didn't encourage he allowed it
It was not rape you have to have consent

http://www.answering-christianity.com...
http://www.answering-christianity.com...

The Hadith about glares again even if it was authentic wouldn't mean anything as they were abrogated and prophet Muhammad didn't want to put it in the Quran

Vote Con because pro only copies his arguments from answering Islam or other islamophobe sites and one of those arguements were already refuted in my rebuttel yet he used it in his conclusion

Pro didn't prove anything except that he was ignorant with tafsir of Hadith

This is my first debate and i hope you vote for me.
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by nizohio 1 year ago
nizohio
Yes, I'm well aware of the Quranic verse and of the commentary by Ibn Kathir. However, as Muhammad said: "It is incumbent on those who are present to convey this message (of mine) to those who are absent. May be that some of those to whom it will be conveyed will understand it better than those who have actually heard it.", it may be that a later generation (which is us) understands the verse better.

The Quranic verse you put forward contains the word AYAT. As you yourself quoted it, AYAT doesnt necessarily mean VERSES. It can also, for example, mean COMMUNICATIONS, miracles, signs, revelations, or lesson/example.

If you read from Surah 2:105 - 108, you would know that the context of the passages is around the People of the Book, or the disbelievers. It wouldn't make sense if Surah 2:106 talks about the verses in the Quran because the disbelievers didn't believe in the Quran. It would only make sense if the word AYAT means REVELATIONS. Revelations here are the PREVIOUS revelations that God had sent prior to the Quran like the Torah, Injil etc). Then it would make sense because the laws and ways to go about daily lives that existed in the previous revelations are now canceled, or ABROGATED, and they are substituted by the new law, the QURANIC law.

Finally, abrogation within the quran itself doesn't make sense because the quran is not arranged in chronological order. It is not a book of stories that starts from the beginning of the creation to the end of the last prophet. So, we aren't really sure which verse abrogates which.
Posted by peacenik 1 year ago
peacenik
There are abrogations in the Quran because the Quran says there are abrogations in the Quran, see verse:
"Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?]
[Qur'an 2:106]

Meaning of verse here:
http://www.alim.org...

Meaning provided by Muslim Scholar: Ibn Kathir

Expert from his book Tafsir ibn Kathir (the most famous, authoritative and widely used tafsir book used by muslims today).

Ibn Kathir makes it clear that many quran verses have been cancelled and not including in quran, and he provides evidence and context of verse.
Posted by nizohio 1 year ago
nizohio
Peacenik,

You can be done with me, or not be done with me. It doesn't matter. I never said the compilations made by Muslim and Bukhari are ok. What I conveyed was, of all the books of hadiths, the two compilations contain the most authentic hadiths. God in the Quran never said he would protect the hadiths, but only the Quran. So, obviously, no matter how thorough or meticulous you are in compiling hadiths or anything, there bounds to be mistakes. Any hadith that contradicts the Quran will be rejected.

50%? I'm going to need reference.

There is not one single verse of the Quran Muslims are to ignore. If that's the case, then I can just, by my own desires, decide on what I want to ignore and what I want to follow.

The man asking Uthman may not have been very knowledgeable in the Quran. It doesn't mean there ARE abrogation in the Quran.

Again, leave, stay, it doesn't matter.
Posted by peacenik 1 year ago
peacenik
I am done with you nizohio

I no logner wish to debate you.

First you said Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are ok.

Now just to make yourself happy, now you say hadiths inside bukhari and muslim are fake.

Sunni muslim scholars believe that bukhari is 100%, they even place it next to the quran and claim there is no falsehood in it.

This is just 1 verse that was lost, theres much more. I remember reading something back in the past that 50% of the quran were lost.

There also also many verses in the quran that Muslims are not supposed to follow because they were abrogated (cancelled/rejected/contradicted by new verses e.t.c)

See proof here where Man asks the original Quran collected (Uthman), why he is including an baorgated verse in the Quran:
http://sunnah.com...
Posted by nizohio 1 year ago
nizohio
We can notice here that the one in Bukhari does not mention anything at all about these verses being part of the Quran. All it says is Umar feared that people might not carry out the stoning punishment based on the fact that there are no verses in the Quran that makes it compulsory to stone as the reason why they do not want to carry out the punishment.

However, the second hadith, which is also narrated by Ibn Abbas, but through a different chain, is totally different from the first. The second one tries to establish the existence of these verses as a fact. There are two ways in which the two hadiths are different.

First, Umar said that the Muslims have recited, memorized and understood the verses in the second hadith. However, this is not found in the first.

Second, the phrase "laid down in Allah's book" in the second hadith is not found in the first.

Why don't we find these in the first? I don't know, maybe one of the narrators didn't remember exactly what was transmitted to them, or they may have been confused because there is another hadith that talks about the verse of stoning, but not in the Quran, but in the Torah. But one thing for sure, these differences would render the hadiths weaker and they surely cannot be used against the Quran which is, again, based on mutawatir chains of transmission.
Posted by nizohio 1 year ago
nizohio
The hadiths on stoning are very interesting. They"re actually recorded in both Sahih Bukhari and Muslim.

"Narrated Ibn Abbas, 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, 'We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,' and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." " (Bukhari)

Now, the hadith which is also from Ibn Abbas, but in Muslim:
"'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy, or a confession."
Posted by nizohio 1 year ago
nizohio
peacenik,

First, a little background of Islam & Quran. I don't know if you knew this, in Islam, there is a science of verifying the authenticity of a passage, either the Quran or hadith. We use what is called the chain of transmission (COT). This chain is studied carefully to determine if the passage is authentic or not.

For example, there is a teacher, let's call him X, who tells his students (A, B, C, D) that 2+3=10. Then A tells another person (E) what the teacher told him. Then E tells another person (F) what E said the teacher told him. So, now we have a COT which is: It is narrated by F that E said that A said that X said 2+3=10. Muslims would study this chain and find out about these narrators. Are these narrators trustworthy? Were they Muslims? Did they have any problem remembering things? Are they reliable? Is there any broken link in the chain. Once they have studied them carefully, they would decide if the passage is authentic or not.

The Quran also uses the same kind of science, but it is based on mutawatir narrations. Mutawatir means that a narration is transmitted by such a large number of people that they can't all agree on a lie.

For example, if we were to use the above situation, it won't only be A who's transmitting the passage, B, C and D will do that also. They can tell the same people A told, or other people. Then we have so many chains of transmission that it would be illogical to think that they are lying about the notion that X said 2+3=10.

THAT is what the Quran is based on. A sahih hadith is different. It can be considered sahih even if only one person transmits it, as in the situation in the first example. However, this sahih hadith can't be used against the Quran because the Quran is based on mutawatir hadith which means between a mutawatir hadith and sahih hadith, the mutawatir one prevails. So, in the goat case, the hadith is likely to be weak as it goes against mutawatir passage that God would preserve his words in the
Posted by peacenik 1 year ago
peacenik
nizohio, what is your response to the quran verses eaten by a goat?
""The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it."
1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5."
[Sunan Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1944]
Source: http://sunnah.com...

Hadith is considered Hasan (sound) due to various hadith mentiong that the quran verses about rajam (stoning to death) were lost. Hadith which mention that Quran verses were lost are:

http://sunnah.com...

Why would Allah let Quran verses become lost?
Posted by nizohio 1 year ago
nizohio
Again, just because Al-Bani said it's authentic, it doesn't mean it is since neither Sahih Bukhari nor Muslim mentions this. But even if it IS, then the other arguments I put forth still stand.
Posted by peacenik 1 year ago
peacenik
Hadith is Sahih (authentic) see categorization here:
http://sunnah.com...
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