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Muhammed Ali Vs Mike Tyson in Their Prime 15 Rounds *FANTASY*

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/27/2015 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,125 times Debate No: 72446
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (34)
Votes (1)




What would happen if two of the greatest heavyweight boxers (In their prime) who never fought clashed in a 15 round battle ?

Where will it take place ? Madison Square Garden

Date: May 6

Pro: Ali Would Win
Con: Tyson Will Win

My Opponent will state his reason why Iron Tyson will defeat Ali.


-No Ear Biting :-)
-This fight will take place in the ring
-No Forfeits


Tyson and Muhammad are both great boxers, and their scores are very close.
Tyson has 44 knockouts during his professional career with 50 wins total and 6 losses.
Muhammad had 56 wins but only 37 knockouts and 5 losses.
The difference between the two aren't major.

Muhammad is known for endurance and outlasting the opponent.
Tyson is known for incredible speed and skill.

Now we know Tyson may or may not have asthma, but it's never affected him in a fight.
In fact, if we were to take both in their primes, I'm pretty sure Tyson would last the full 15 rounds. If we were to pit them in a fight of infinite rounds until one is knocked out, I think Muhammad would win by superior endurance, but 15 rounds is definitely manageable. Remember, we're talking about these two boxers in their primes here.

Muhammad is an evasive fighter who opts to outlast his opponents, but Tyson is great at closing distances. So Tyson is a perfect counter to Ali's style in that regard.
Now Tyson is known to be greatly inspired by Ali. Ali was Tyson's hero and it was Ali who inspired Tyson to box according to this boxing documentary:
Tyson believes Ali would beat him if they were to fight both in their primes, but I think that's his hero-worship speaking. With the way Tyson follows Ali, Tyson most definitely has a very clear picture of Ali's style. Tyson would be much more prepared than Ali if they were to fight both in their primes. Ali in his primes knew nothing about Tyson. Tyson in his primes worshiped Ali. Knowledge of style and such preparations goes in favor of Tyson. Tyson should know the ins and outs of Ali's style.
Add to the fact that Tyson is one of the best heavyweights, all these factors: the knowledge, the counter-style, etc. show that Ali would probably lose to Tyson.
Debate Round No. 1


Ali Fought Better Competition:

There is no question that Ali has fought the better competition. He defeated many great legends and fought and defeated more would champions than any other heavyweight in history such as Archie Moore, Floyd Patterson, Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Sonny Liston, etc. Mike Tyson's best wins are from Michael Spinks, Larry Holmes, and Trevor Berbrick.

Ali Has The Better Chin:

Muhammed Ali chin has been tested multiple times during his career, a good example of his chin is his famous fight against George Foreman. This man has defeated Ken Norton and Frazier in only a few rounds, and made it look easy. But during the fight Ali was beaten viciously for 8 rounds and was losing terribly on the score card. But was never down and knocked out George. Ali also fought big punchers like Earnie Shavers and big cat. None the less, Ali has never been officialy knocked out. While Mike Tyson was knocked out 4 times.



-Ali's Chin-
There are many factors in boxing to a boxer's assets as a boxer, and the ability to take hits is universal among boxers. Boxers are usually trained to take hits to their bellies, and some can take hits to their neck and face without flinching. It's about building resistance in these areas.
Now even if Ali can take hits, if Ali hadn't knocked out George, decision by judge, based on the 8 rounds of domination, would have meant George winning the match.
And even if Ali can take hits, a concussive blow to the head is still a concussive blow to the head, no matter how sturdy his chin is.
According to Tyson's record, Tyson's opponent's, barring the initial few, are all incredible fighters with equally incredible records. Against these opponents, Tyson has 50 wins and 6 losses with 44 knockouts, which is nearly a 90% ratio of knock-outs.
The odds of Tyson dealing a concussive blow on Ali is very high. The odds of Tyson knocking out Ali is very high, especially since we're talking about Tyson in his prime.
Compare this to Muhammad Ali, who has 56 wins, 5 losses and only 37 knockouts. Ali knocks someone out in (37/61 - 60%) of his matches. That's almost as little as Mayweather(26/47 - 55%), who is known for his victories by decision for his technical, defensive superiority.
I agree that Ali's evasiveness and endurance makes him a great fighter, but as mentioned before, Tyson's abrasive gap-closing fighting style is a great counter to Ali's style. And again, Tyson adores Ali, following and watching Ali almost obsessively. Tyson definitely knows the ins and outs of Ali's fighting.
Compared to these factors, Ali's chin means nothing. I think Tyson would knock Ali cold, but if he doesn't, Tyson would still win by judge decision.
Debate Round No. 2


-Ali's Chin-
The reason why Tyson's ko percentage is higher than Ali's is because Tyson has fought lower level competition compared to Ali. Mike Tyson biggest wins are from Larry Holmes and Micheal Spinx. Mean while Ali has wins over former world champions like Sonny Liston (2X), Joe Frazier (2X), Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton Etc. And there is absolutely no way Mike can ko Ali. Ali has never been down for the ten count in his boxing life. In fact, heavy handed boxers like Earnie Shavers and George Foreman can't knock down Ali. Now let's talk about speed, Ali's quickness and defense is superior to Mike's by a long shot.

As seen in this video ->



My opponent does not provide any objective measure in the previous round to prove why Ali would beat Tyson. Bragging about Ali's record on who he's beaten doesn't have anything to do with what kind of skills he has.

Here's a 10 minute video of over 70 of Tyson's many knockdowns and some of his quick moves in dodging bullet-speed punches

Look at the opponent Tyson has fought in his career:
Every one of these fighters, especially those after the first few, are incredibly skilled and have god-like fighting records (many are undefeated). Doesn't mean a thing to this debate since both have been proven to be extremely able fighters,
Bragging about the people that either fighter's beaten doesn't have anything to do with proving how one would be better than the other if they were to fight each other since both have beaten extremely good fighters.

So back to the statistical differences that actually matter in this hypothetical matchup:
Statistically, Mike Tyson has KO'd 44 times with nearly 40 of these KO targets being undefeated fighters. Mike Tyson has KO'd nearly 40 people who have never been KO'd before. Ali won't be any different. Again, Tyson has a nearly 90% knockout ratio. Just because Ali hasn't been knocked out before, doesn't mean he can't be. Tyson has knocked out nearly 40 never-been-knocked out fighters.

Both in their primes: Tyson knows the ins and outs of Ali's style and fighting. Ali doesn't. Tyson's method of fighting involves getting up close an closing gaps, which directly counters Ali's evasive, running style as shown in my opponent's video. My video shows that Tyson is at least as fast, if not more so, than Ali. There were a couple clips between the 2 and 3 minute mark in my video showing Tyson dodging some extremely fast shots both in slow motion and in regular speed. Tyson is really fast. Faster than Ali if the videos are anything to go by.

I think Tyson would knockout Ali, but even if he doesn't, Tyson would at least win by unanimous decision since his technical knowledge and counter to Ali and Ali's methodology makes him the perfect fighter to pit against Ali. In his prime, Tyson's knocked out fighter after fighter without losing a single round. Each and every one of these fighters were undefeated with many having a long record under their belts. Most of Tyson's losses occur when he was nearing his retirement and far from his prime.
In his prime, Tyson was a god (pardon the expression) in the ring.
Every factor points to Tyson most likely being able to beat Ali if both were to fight in their primes.
Debate Round No. 3


Yes it does 'have anything to do with what kind of skills he has.' Because he has fought better competition and defeated more world champions than Mike in his entire career. Mike has lost to medicore fighters like Buster Douglas, Kevin Mcbride, and Danny Williams. Tyson's chin is questionable. He has been ko'ed 5 times in his career, meanwhile Ali has never been ko'ed in his entire life. Anyways still there is no chance that Mike can ko Ali because he isn't known for one punch power. Also pro states that Tyson will finish Ali via unanimous desicion. There are two problems here from making that bold statement true.

A.) Mike had breathing problems in his youth which caused him to not go 100% in his fights. I got this statement from the movie 'Tyson'

B.) Mike also has never been in many rounds as Ali. Which means that Ali has more experience than Iron Mike.

And 'bragging' you say ? Everying i said about Ali's record wasn't in a boastful speech, it is a fact that Ali has beaten better competition and is a 3 time world champion.It's just true that Mike hasn't faced the same caliber of oppenets as Ali. But if it you thought i was 'bragging' than that is your foolish opinion.

Ok 40 people that have never been ko'ed before, i need a link to support this claim. And how many of those people are actually world champions or true boxers ?

Now let's compare their weight and height:

Ali is 6 ft 3 in, and 236 pounds, 78 reach
Tyson is 5 ft 10 in, and 216 pounds, 71 reach

These statistics show that Ali has the more superior build and stronger then Ali. Tyson lacks the reach by 7 inches, and is 5 inches shorter, and weighs less meaning that Tyson will lack the power and is not superioly stronger than Ali.

Muhammed Ali's accolades speak for themselves:

- Defeated more world champions than Tyson and any heavyweight boxer.
- Gold Medalist in the light heavyweight division in rome 1960
- 3 time world heavyweight champion
- defeated guys like Sonny Liston (2X), Joe Frazier (2X), Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, Archie Moore, George Foreman, etc.
- More experience than Tyson and faced more rounds then him
- Has never been ko'd before in his entire boxing career.
- Has more wins than Tyson
- Has less loses than Tyson

Muhammed ali will win via 15 round unanimous desicion or ko in round 10. There is no way Tyson can pass through round 15 because of his lung problem and will probably get ko'd. Also, Ali can't be ko'ed because he faced hard punchers like Earnie Shavers, who is widely considered as the hardest puncher in boxing history.



-Tyson Knocks People Down-
Yes over 70 of Tyson's many knockdowns. Knockouts & Knockdowns aren't the same thing. Tyson's punches blow people to the ground. If you fight Tyson, you're probably going to get knocked down if not knocked out. Tyson's knockout rate in his prime before he started his decline was at near 100%.

-Past Fighting Record-
Past records in the pro-scene can be evidence of skill, but it's not sheer evidence of superiority. Guillermo Rigondeaux is the probably the best fighter in his division and he came in with no professional record, and he came in and beat the best fighters in his division straight-up. Records are subsidiary to skills.
More heavyweight champs fought doesn't mean anything if the heavyweight champs skills aren't any different. Tyson's beaten heavyweight champions three times: Frank Bruno, Bruce Seldon and James Smith the Bonecrusher.Ali may have beaten more heavyweight champions because Tyson was the only heavyweight titleholder for a time so anyone he fought during that time couldn't possibly be a heavyweight champion. Anyway, what matters is that both have shown themselves to be really good fighters, so building on the merits of past competition is irrelevant. With less accomplished fighters, it might have more weight to this debate, but not much. Skill is what matters, and this is Mike Tyson vs. Muhammad Ali we're talking about here. Past record doesn't matter for this specific fight.

Reach isn't that big a factor after a certain point in skill level. Pacquiao has short reach, but he's one of the best boxers in Asia. Tyson has fought and beaten larger, longer-reached opponents. He's a fighter who knows how to close distances. Boxing matches aren't about who can stretch their arms out the longest. It helps, but most punches are actually pulled with bent elbows at short distance in these rings.
I've said this many times. Tyson's gap-closer stick-to-the-opponent method of fighting makes him the perfect fighter to put against Ali.

-Why Tyson would win-
1 - very likely highly superior knowledge of Ali's fight-patterns
2 - Tyson counters Ali's dodge-sustain and point-scoring fight method. Tyson
3 - Tyson is a knockout fighter who pulls some of the most powerful punches in boxing. The odds of in-his-Prime Tyson knocking out in-his-Prime Ali is humongous.
Debate Round No. 4


Debate is finished. No further arguements. On to the voting


Hey. Just because you don't have anything more to say, doesn't mean you waiving round 5 means that I have to do that too.
Why would you make a 5th round if you weren't going to use it?
Why didn't you specify that you would eliminate the 5th round at the start of the debate so that I knew what I'd be getting into?
If you had said so in earlier rounds, I might have accepted not saying anything more at this point. You didn't. Using the fifth round to terminate the 5th round isn't going to fly.
I'm not going to forfeit my 5th round just because you forfeited yours.
I'm very disappointed that you didn't respond to most of my actual points like Tyson's knowledge or his counter-skill. You might have made a case against the counter-skill, but you've ignored my entire case and only responded to my responses to yours. This debate could have been so much better.

Tyson's record -
6 losses out of 58 matches is a 10% rate of loss.
Muhammad Ali's record -
5 losses out of 61 matches is an 8% rate of loss. not much difference between 8% and 10%. Since their stats are about the same, what matters is some measurement of their skill, not their past fighting record. And it says here that Ali got knocked out once, so you saying that he never got knocked out before is a straightup lie.
Both are fighting in their primes for this fantasy matchup and their past record includes matches after their primes, so that's one more reason why we shouldn't be using past records to determine which one would be stronger.

Ali might have a sturdy chin, but a concussive blow to the head, not the chin mind you, would still cause a concussion. Not having been knocked out before doesn't mean you can't be knocked out. Even if Ali's faced heavy punchers, if these heavy punchers never land a clean blow, then that doesn't really count. the best way to test Ali's 'super-chin' is to have someone like Earnie Shavers slug a clean hard blow on Ali's chin without Ali running or defending or dodging and see if Ali doesn't get knocked out.
Saying that he's faced an opponent is not the same as saying that he's survived a blow from that same opponent.
Tyson would win because he'd probably land a lot clean blows on Ali based on his counter-style and his knowledge of Ali's fighting.

Oh and Joe Frazier in his prime actually beat Muhammad Ali in his prime. Yes Ali did fight Frazier, like you said, but Frazier beat him. Ali only beat Frazier 5 years laters - neither in their primes. Not only that, it was a non-title match. So.
You've given a lot of dishonest evidence.

Tyson beats Ali.
Debate Round No. 5
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bluesteel 3 years ago
>Reported vote: ThatLezChick // Moderator action: Removed<

7 points to Allenn. {RFD = Reasons for voting decision: con won no contest}

[*Reason for removal*] Vote bomb. It doesn't explain any of its 7 points.
Posted by Allenn 3 years ago
You're so feisty. These aren't even the same cases.
1 - Wylted did not tell striatedgs that he wasn't allowed to post a final round, he did that on his own. Even if striatedgs posted a final extra round, voters won't be obligated to downpoint him for doing it. Same case here.
2 - Striatedgs started posting immediately in round 1, so the rounds were technically shifted upward.
Round 1 - Wylted setup
Round 1 - Striatedgs posts his first arguments.
Round 2 - Wylted posts his first arguments
Striatedgs not posting his final round doesn't cancel an entire round for both sides because there was only half a round left.

RXR, you know you're in the wrong. Just. Stop it.
Posted by Allenn 3 years ago
Really? Post some links and let us see if they do the same thing that you did.
Posted by RXR 3 years ago
plenty of debates in this site do the same thing to.
Posted by RXR 3 years ago
you just compared a debate to a boxing match. I made the rules. you broke the rules. Instead of ending the debate like a civilized person you instead copy and pasted your whole arguement in round 5
Posted by Allenn 3 years ago
And in an actual debate, debaters can't just cut off chunks of the debate while right in the middle of the debate. Imagine you're doing a policy debate and then your opponents say: "This debate is done, no more arguments, on to voting." after the first affirmative rebuttal. The debaters don't get to choose to cut out the second rebuttals.
Posted by Allenn 3 years ago
There doesn't need to be a rule. Making a new rule in round 5 is UNFAIR, and I showed that it is unfair many times.
Look, two boxers sign up for a boxing match of 12 rounds. In the 11th round, one boxer saying: "NO MORE PUNCHING MATCH OVER". doesn't make the match over. There's still the 12th round. Even if he's going to not punch during the 12th round, even if he loudly yelled: "NO PUNCHING IN THE 12TH ROUND!", his opponent is still entitled to punch him, and the judges are still entitled to give his opponent points for throwing punches at the defenseless guy who for whatever reason decided that the match should be over at round 11.
Now if both boxers had agreed to do 11 rounds of boxing and somehow got the professional scene to allow only 11 rounds,, then the match would indeed be over. But if both boxers agreed to do 12 then one boxer suddenly decides to only do 11, the 12th round still goes off.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
Same case here. You screaming "MATCH OVER!" doesn't make the match over. We did not agree to do a 4 round match before the debate started. There were 5 rounds so it was implied that you and I both had agreed to do 5 rounds.
Look, I had round 5 all planned out. You can't just go and say: "MATCH OVER!" out of nowhere like that and expect me to be punished for not obeying your orders.
You agreed to do 5 rounds by making this a 5 round debate WITHOUT specifying that you had expected your opponent, me, to only do 4 rounds with you.
Posted by RXR 3 years ago
what rule does it say i cant make a rule on round 5.
Posted by Allenn 3 years ago
Or you can, but I'm not obligated to follow it, and I lose nothing by not agreeing to your new rules.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by DarwinBulldog 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Evolution of sports indicates that the new, younger generation usually supersedes the previous generation - and this especially true of combat sports. Tyson hit just as hard, if not harder, than Foreman - BUT - would deliver 4 of those punches with a second of time. Larry Holmes, the closest fighting style to that of Ali, and a fighter who beat Ali, got smashed by Mike Tyson. Even if Ali was in his prime, Tyson half hung over would win merely near his prime. Its not even close. Ali is the Greatest for political and historical reasons - like Elvis is the King of Rock n Roll or MJ is the King of Pop.. etc.