Muhammed is Not Predicted in the Bible.
Debate Rounds (5)
I was directed to your profile a little bit ago and I realized that your the first Shiite Muslim I've ever met in my life. I really don't want to let this oppurtunity go by, so I was wondering if you'd be able to have this quick debate with me. I'm a Christian and I'll be arguing that Muhammed is not mentioned in the Bible and I hoped you would be willing to argue as con. We've got 5 rounds to get through with 72 hours to argue.
My rules are pretty simple. First off, all quotations from the Quran and Bible will obviously be in English. The second rule is that we respect each others beliefs and keep this debate calm.
I hope your able to debate with me and as is the custom of Ladies first you can lay down your arguments as soon as you want and I'll try to respond.
Thanks and may the best argument win!
"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best." (the Quran 29:46)
(I'm sorry. You're Christian and I can't write the rest)
I accept this challenge and thanks so much for giving me the opportunity to debate on this subject. :) I wish you luck.
May Allah help me prove you that the Bible testifies for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Some Chriatians ask me, "when you criticise our faith, you prove that the Bible is corrupted. But why do you quote the Bible when you want to prove the prophethood of Muhammad?"
1. There are so many Quranic verses and narrations that we don't need any other sources to prove the prophethood of Muhammad.
2. When I quote the testimonies of heavenly books about his Muhammad, I just want to confirm his prophethood, not prove it.
3. The glad tidings of the Scriptures about the coming of Muhammad shows that the connection of other religions with Islam; and that those religions guide their followers to Islam.
4. No one can claim that the Scriptures are corrupted completely. No one can claim that the authors of the Bible replaced ALL the original verses with the sentencese they wrote. And the Quran is the mean which we can recognize the authentic verses through it.
Ok. Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed that he is the last messenger of Allah. He never said that no prophet would come after him. Rather, he warned us against the false prophets. He told us how we can recognize them.
"Watch out for false prophets.They come to you in sheep"s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."By their fruit you will recognize them."Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:15-20)
John the Baptist also never claimed that no prophet would come after Jesus. Rather, when he was asked, "are you that prophet (whom we are waiting for)?", he answered, "No.".
To prove the prophethood of Muhammad, the Quran tells the people of Scripture that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible. So they should believe in him, as they have believed in Jesus. Here's are two Quranic verses on this subject:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful." (7:157)
"Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]." (2:146)
It's not fair!! can only type 4000 characters!! But the verses of the Bible about Muhammad are too many. Please read my comments too.
I'd like to start out with the first verse you mentioned which was Mathew 7:15-20 I believe. This verse does indeed say how to recognize false prophets, but the thing you need to remember is that Muhammed seems to fit this criteria. Lets just say that the historical Muhammed wasn't the most reasonable man. We know from Islamic scholars of the time that he beheaded 600-800 Jews at Medina, ordered the assassinations of famous poets, named his own weapons, brutally tortured criminals, and commited many other atrocities. So we can see that he was producing plenty of thorns of thistles from his tree, which in my opinion, kind of disqualifies him from the prophethood.
The next verses you mentioned was Deut. 33:1-2. Now the problem of your interpretation is that you seem to fail to realize that this verse is talking about The Lord God and not Muhammed. Another thing we need to realize is that when it says ten thousands of saints in the Hebrew, this does not mean 10,000 but a large myriad going beyond just 10,000. And where is Paran? Well Paran and Seir are both near Egypt in the Sinai Peninsula. Paran itself is in north eastern Sinai and nowhere near Mecca!
The last verses you mentioned were Revelation 12:1-4. These verses clearly say that this Woman gave birth to the Messiah who was Jesus. Now there are really only 2 options for who she could be. One is Mary and the other is Israel. To find out which one it is we just have to cross reference this with the identical picture in Genesis 37:9-11. These verses show Joseph having this same vision concerning Israel! Most Biblical scholars agree that this will be Israel who will flee to the wilderness, perhaps Petra, to survive.
My sources for these arguments are Answering Muslims.com and also Nabeel Qureshi.
Thanks so much for all the great arguments you put forth and I'll be awaiting your reply Julia.
The Quran which orders Muhammad to kill infidels - the same Quran tells him:" And We have not sent you, except as a mercy to the worlds." (21:107)
Muhammad was a mercy to the world even when he killed Jews.
Islam is the religion of peace. But sometimes peace is worth fighting the oppressive. Even a gardener has to remove weeds from his yard to protect the plants. Instead of finding out that how many people were killed by Muhammad, research why they were killed and what their plot against Islam was.
The Battle of Khaibar: http://www.imamreza.net...
The Battle of Ahzab: http://www.imamreza.net...
If your claim is true, so Moses is not a prophet too. Has has killed more people.
"Do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them." (Deuteronomy 20:16-17)
The verses of Revelation are about a woman. But how can you know that she was Mary? This woman was Lady Fatima, daughter of Muhammad. Christians know her as a woman with Rosary but mistake her for Mary.
John the Apostle knew Mary perfectly. So there was no need to use the term "a woman." she could simply name Mary. Besides the signs written about this woman are not described for Mary. And the son of that woman is the Savior. He is the 12th Imam, the Promised Mahdi and not Jeaus Christ.
You should read the history of Islam to know the interpretion of those verses. But if you want, I can explain in my comments
And I don't know why you deny it! Paran is located in Saudi Arabia! Paran and Baka are two words in Old Testament which refer to Mecca.
"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in ARABIA and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem.." (Galatians 4:25)
"Then"God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. And God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness"and became an expert with the bow."He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt." (Genesis 21:19:21)
Do you know what the name of that well is? It is the sacred well of Zamzam, located in Mecca. 
By the order of Allah, Abraham took his wife and son to the desert of Arabia and left them alone. Hagar and Ishmael only had some water and a few dates to eat. She drank water and breastfed his son. But after a while, they both got thirsty and Ishmael started crying. Seeing this, Hagar tried to find some water. She climbed the mountain of Safa and looked down at the valley to see if she could find anyone to assist her. She found no one and so she went down from the mountain until she reached the valley. Then she climbed Al-Marwah Mountain in keeping her search for water but to no avail. She went back to As-Safa then back again to Al-Marwah for seven times. On her last arrival to Al-Marwah, she heard a voice which prompted her to call out: "Help, if you can". There was Angel Gabriel who hit the ground with his wing until fresh and pure water emerged. That became known as Zamzam water. Hagar gathered the water with her hands and collected it in her container while it was springing out. Gabriel said: "Do not fear loss, for there is a sacred House here which will be built by this child and his father", meaning Ishmael and his father Abraham. 
Read my comments please.
And also: http://www.answering-christianity.com...
First off you mentioned how some Christians quote verses in the Quran to suit our own needs, but isn't that exactly what your doing? I don't want to call you a hypocrite but it sounds like a double standard if you ask me. To say that Muhammed is prophesied in the Bible, but denying the prophecies that the Messiah would HAVE to be killed and ressurected and denying the Deity of The Lord seems a bit sketchy to me.
And yes I actually have researched why Muhammed killed and brutally tortured people and the simple reason is that they didn't agree with him. Take for example the Meccan caravans that were plundered by the Muslims. Did the innocent woman and children in them deserve that?
I'd also like to go over the Quryza Massacre quickly. It seems that before the slaughter, Muhammed had already banished the peaceful Qaynuqa and Nadir tribes. Early Muslim sources conclude that he expelled the Nadir tribe over a feared assassination( Talk about corporal punishment.) Soon after the Battle of the Trench, Muhammed was taking a bath and claimed to have a vision from the "angel" Gabriel giving him the authority he wanted to butcher the Jews. When they had captured all the Jews, Muhammed denied the plee for mercy and abided by the decision of his friend Sad Bin Muadh. All men and boys were then beheaded and many of te women were taken as sex slaves for lots of the men. Now we can ask ourselves one question...... Did Jesus ever tell us to do this?
You also seemed to assume that I believed the Woman in Revelation was Mary. I along with almost all Biblical scholars agree that she is Israel, which scripture seems to support much more considering Jesus had to come from this woman. It would be pretty stupid to say Jesus came out of Islam but that's just my opinion. I also don't understand how you can quote from Revelation where it's the number one book where Jesus is worshiped, and it's main theme is the Jesus returning as Almighty God/ King of Kings and LORD of Lords.
And I'm sorry about the whole Paran in Sinai thing, I was a bit sleepy when I checked google maps :)
But I will have to say that Paran is in the path of where the Israelites went and considering this verse talks about God not Muhammed.
In conclusion I'll turn it over to you, but I would love it if you would watch some of the videos by Nabeel Qureshi, and also a video on Louder with Crowder called Muhammed vs Jesus( Be careful about this one cause it's pretty anti muslim)
For example, there are only two things which we reject about the story of Abraham:
1. The Bible says Abraham married his step-sister. We are disagree with this. Because:
"Do not have sexual relations with your sister,"either your father"s daughter or your mother"s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere." (Lovitics 18:9)
We believe that when Abraham told Abimelek that Sarah was his sister, he meant "sister-in-faith". So he didn't lie.
2. We also believe that God orders Abraham to sacrifice his firstborn son, Ishmael. But the Bible, corrupted by racist Jews, describes him as a wild person and says that Abraham sacrificed Isaac.
Apart from these points, we believe the story of Abraham as mentioned in the Bible. We can find the authentic verses by comparing them to the Quran, Islamic narrations and the Gospel of Barnabas.
Oh, you were talking about the tribe of Bani Quraidha when you said the Prophet beheaded 600 Jews. You read all about it, didn't you? So you still think Muhammad killed them unjustly?
1. Before the Battle of Ahzab, Muhammad established a treaty with Banu Quraidha that if the Jews attack and harm Muslims or support their enemies, the Muslims can attack them and enslave their women. Do you know what it means? The Jews themselves agreed that if they broke their oath, the Muslims could kill them. However they broke their oath.
2. The Jews of Bani Quraidha betrayed Muslims when Medina was surrounding by the enemies and the hypocrites incited Muslims not to take part in the battle. If Allah didn't help them to defend Medina, the Jews would kill them and enslave their women.
3. After the Jews gave up, they said that they would be pleased with whatever Sa'd ibn Maadh decided. And Sa'd judged them justly based on their own book;
"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace."If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject"to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city."When the"Lord"your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it."As for the women, the children, the livestockand everything else in the city,"you may take these as plunder"for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies." (Deuteronomy 20;10-14)
Anyway, don't use Christian sources when you want to know if Muhammad is mentioned in Bible. Because it's hard to find a Christian scholar who admits it. They have corrupted the New Testament to misguide you and conceal the truth of Jesus from you. So how can you think that they simply tell you the verses I mentioned are about Muhammad? I don't want to tell you to use Islamic websites. Just compare those verses with what the Quran says. I just found a few Christians who admitted the Bible is corrupted.
Please read my comments.
I also find it kind of funny when you say that you criticize logically when your god said in the Quran that to question Islam and have doubts in unallowed. You can't seek the Truth without doubts sister!
Abraham did indeed marry his step sister. We also know for a fact that Cain married his sister and yet Muslims don't cry about that do they? Abraham was before the Levitical Law and you'll also know that marrying family members was allowed then, but was but allowed under the Law of Moses. As a side note, to say that she was just a sister in faith is a forced interpretation of the text and doesn't fit in the context.
As for whether Abram sacrificed Ishmael or Isaac is pretty clear. First off, we know for historical facts that the Torah has not been corrupted as you say it has due to many of the Dead Sea scrolls, Masoreric texts, portions of ancient scripture, and even Rabbinical sources. The beliefs and traditions that Isaac was sacrificed go back to the very beginning, but when we see a book written in the desert thousands of years later with no archeological and historical support it seems very implausible that the Quran is legit. It also greatly disturbs me that you call the Jewish people r"cist which is just wrong.
GOSPEL OF BARNABAS........... Really :)
The Gospel of Barnabas has been cast aside by Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, and every legitimate Islamic scholar, both Shiite and Sunni as false. We know for 100% FACT that the Gospel of Barnabas was written in Medieval 16th century Spain( Guess it's a bit past medieval, but you get the point.) ONLY 2 poorly made manuscripts were found IN Spain and written IN Spanish of all languages. The only manuscript of it that we have today comes from the 18th century. The great Islamic scholar Abbas al Akked says that this is a very late book. We also see that there are plenty of geographical errors which prove that the people, or person, who wrote it had never been to Israel and knew nothing about it. If you like to see something that is more legit I would encourage you that you look at the Epistle of Barnabas which can be dated to early Christianity and which shows that Jesus is God in it.
Lastly I just want to show something about the Quran. In the Quran it says that if you have questions go to the people of the book( Jews and Christians.) It also says that the followers of Jesus would last to the end of days. You can claim that this means muslims, but we have historical proof that there were no Muslims in the time of Christ. The Quran also says that followers of Jesus would become powerful soon after which only happened when Constantine converted.
Quran says Jesus never claimed Godhood
Roman historians, First century Rabbinical sources, Temple Authorities, Christian Gospels, Early Church Fathers( Students and prot"g"es of original 12), Early Christian Traditions, the Didache, and even the Talmud state that Jesus claimed to be God. Who do I believe History or a book written by a desert man? I'll take history.
We have over 30,000 copies of manuscripts that all say the same thing. The preservation of scripture can be traced back to Jesus himself. We also have quotes from early Christians and Church Fathers who quote directly and precisely from the Bible we have today. We also have the Magdalen Papyrus which many historians believe is a section of Mathews ORIGINAL Gospel. And guess what, it matches perfectly. We have so many identical manuscripts through history that are identical that it makes the couple versions of the Quran look pretty wimpy. As for the OT, the Dead Sea scrolls matched up PERFECTLY with our Bibles today. There are actually much more evidence that the Quran has been corrupted then the Bible has.
Thanks and back to you
I may mention some of the contradiction in my comments.
About Prophet Abraham,
Firstly, Abraham and Sarah were cousin. There was a prophet whom I don't know how to spell his name (it's something like Lahouge). He had two daughters. The first daughter married Abraham's uncle and gave birth to Sarah. And the second one married the Abraham's father and she gave birth to Abraham. So they were cousin. Of course the Sarah's mother married Haman before marrying her father. And Lot was the fruit of this marriage. So Lot was the step-brother of Sarah and the nephiew of Abraham.  It's so simple! And it is not written in the era of Abraham incestuous marriages"were allowed.
You can read this too:
Secondly, Cain had to marry his sister, because there was no other woman in the earth and no other way for man to survive! Some say that he married a heavenly woman. But it's not true because the as Quran says, all mankind are from Adam and Eve, not heavenly women.
"O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women." (4:1)
Thirdly, I have also a question and first I seek refuge from Allah for saying such things.
The Bible says, "No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the"Lord, not even in the tenth generation." (Deuteronomy 23:2)
So according to above verse most of the Prophets shouldn't enter the congregation of God,
- Prophet David and his forefathers should enter the God's assembly. Because David is the tenth descendant of Perez.  and Perez is the illegitimate child .
- So Prophet Solomon and Jesus shouldn't enter as well. Because they are the descendants of David.
- Also, Prophet Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and his descendants shouldn't enter God's assembly. Because as the Bible says, Abraham married his step-sister and marrying step-sister is forbidden. 
- Prophet Moses and Aaron shouldn't enter too. Because their father married his aunt and it is forbidden! 
Wow! What a pure generation! :) That's why Christians commit immoralities nowadays. When they believe in such pure prophets, we shouldn't expect them act better than this.
As the Bible says, most prophets were the fruit of forbidden marraige or their descendants (Maadhallah). So how did they entered the God's assembly?! The only answer you can give for this question is what you wrote about Mosaic laws.
Are you sure the Gospel of Barnabas was written in 16th century? So what was the Gospel rejected by Pope Gelasius [Pope of Rome 492-96]? Or the Gospel which was written more than 1500 years ago?  Or the Gospel which was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 A.D?
You must research how this Gospel was survived. Maybe it was a miracle! I can't type anymore. I will explain about what you wrote about the Quran in my comments.
 Al-Kafi, Volume 8, Page. 370
 Matthew 1
 Genesis 38
 Genesis 11:29
 Exodus 6:20
You want to see some errors in your book well here you go honey.
- Surah 17:1 says that Allah took Muhammed to the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, but we know for a fact that Islamic
Armies took Jerusalem and butchered it in 637( The Crusades were a counterattack to this), but the mosque was completed in 705. The problem is that Muhammed died in 632.
Surah 20:92-95 says that there were Samaritans at mount Sinai. Now the problem with this is that Assyria conquered the Nothern Kingdom who brought in Foreigners who then intermarried with the lower class Jews who were allowed to stay. Their offspring a were called Samaritans based on the land which they lived called Samaria. The golden calf incident mentioned in this chapter took place at Mt. Sinai in 1446 BC which was 700 years before the first Samaritan was born.
These are just 2 examples, but I've got dozens more if your interested.
As for the whole Abraham married his sister thing well I'll admit that I don't study the OT much, but I'll remind you that marrying relatives was allowable until the Law of Moses. Muslims would agree that many things were allowed until the law and this is one of them. If you can show me one bible verse BEFORE ABRAHAM that it was wrong then I'll listen, but until then your statement is moot.
I also find it funny how you say it was okay for Cain to marry his sister because nobody else was available. So by your own standing you say it was always a sin but for Cain you say it was a necessary sin to commit........ Ok then.
It also seems you really butchered Deuteronomy 23:2. You said that David was the tenth when he was actually the 9th of Judah and Perez( Gen 38:24-30, Ruth 4:18,) and was therefore allowed in the assembly.
Solomon wasn't a bastard child!!! The bastard child was the one who was born to the wife of Uriah and David who died. God then forgave David and allowed him to marry her. That is when Solomon was born and he wasn't a illegitimate child.
"That's why Christians commit immoralities nowadays"- Wow. Christians are some of the most moral people in the world I'll let you know. And people who beat there own wives and blow themselves up for Allah are moral? Lets be serious, either Allah wanted terrorism or he was to stupid to realize that his religion would turn so bloody. :) honestly though don't judge is for immoralities when Islam is at the lowest point :)
Julia we know for a Historical Fact that the Gospel of Barnabas is relatively modern. Please stop kidding yourself. Even the Muslim scholars admit this :) As for these gospels cast aside you do realize that the Bible itself says that people were making false manuscripts and gospels at its time. Thankfully God preserved his words through the Textus Receptus and told us he would. It goes the same with Islam when the Caliphs burned all the Qurans that didn't agree with theirs.
Back to you Julia
Allah says, "Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs." (17:1)
This verse is about the Heavenly Ascension to heavens. Why do you talk about armies and the Crusades?
One night, When Muhammad was in the Sacred Mosque, Gabriel came to him and they both traveled to Jerusalem at night. When they arrived, the spiritual journey of Muhammad began and he ascended to heavens.
"One"of soundness."And"he rose to"his true"form. While he was in the higher part of the horizon. Then he approached and descended. And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer. And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed." (53:6-10)
In 17:1 Allah said that He wanted to show Muhammad of His signs. And this verse confirms it:
"He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord." (53:15)
He ascended to heavens from Masjid al-Aqsa, and met prophets, saw Paradise and hell and talked to angels and Allah
And about Prophet Moses,
"And We made an appointment with Moses for thirty nights and perfected them by the addition of ten; so the term of his Lord was completed as forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron, 'Take my place among my people, do right [by them], and do not follow the way of the corrupters.'" (7:142)
When Moses went to the appointment to receive the tablets, Allah tested the Israelities.
"But indeed, We have tried your people after you departed, and the Samiri has led them astray." (20:85)
"And he extracted for them the statue of a calf which had a lowing sound, and they said, 'This is your god and the god of Moses, but he forgot." (20:88)
When Moses came, he saw that the Israelities were worshipping the calf. The verses you mentioned are about the conversation of Moses and Aaron.
"Moses said, 'O Aaron, what prevented you, when you saw them going astray from following me? Then have you disobeyed my order?' Aaron said, 'O son of my mother, do not seize me by my beard or by my head. Indeed, I feared that you would say, 'You caused division among the Children of Israel, and you did not observe or await my word.' Moses said, "And what is your case, O Samiri?" He said, 'I saw what they did not see, so I took a handful of dust from the track of the messenger and threw it, and thus did my soul entice me." (20:92-96)
You can read this story in the Bible. But it says Aaron made that calf (Exodus 32)
We can't conclude that incestuous marriages were allowed until the time of Moses. It's been said only in regards to Adam's children, based on a report, that since incestuous marriage was not prohibited in the time of Adam and there was no way for the man's offspring to survive, therefore Cain and Abel married their twin sisters. It was after these marriages that God forbade marriage of a man to his sister.
I never said that Incestuous marriage has been always a sin. Because it's not a Takwini law. The One who forbids some immoralities can make them lawful under some circumstances.
For example, a woman is not allowed to talk to a strange man too much, especially in a place where they are alone and the third one is Satan.
"If you fear Allah, then do not be soft in speech to men, lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech." (33:32)
But Islam allowes a female teacher to teach her male students. And we can't say she is sinning.
Or a man is not allowed to touch a strange woman. But Islam allowes a male doctor under some circumstances to touch a woman to cure her if it's really necessary.
Incestuous marriage cause corruption and spreads immorality among people. That's why it"s forbidden. But only a few people lived that time! So it didn't cause corruption! After Abel and Cain married their sisters, their children became the cousins of one another. So Able's children could marry Cain's children.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Non of the passages she bought up are even related to Muhammad, she rips them totally out of context. I really wonder if Julia actually believes the nonsense she is preaching to us.
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