The Instigator
HellKat
Pro (for)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Muslim women are seen as equals to Muslim men in the Qu'ran.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,795 times Debate No: 4037
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (11)

 

HellKat

Pro

To begin I would like to clarify some things.

Muslim women: Women of the Islam faith.

Equal: like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance.

Qu'ran: The Qur'ān (القرآن , literally "the recitation"; also sometimes transliterated as Qur'an, Koran, Alcoran or Al-Qur'ān) is the central religious text of Islam.

In the Qu'ran men and women are held as equals. Here is some evidence.

For Muslim men and women - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise - for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.
(Qur'an 33:35)

And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors(Qur'an 24:4)

Qur'an 24:31 "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty except what (must) appear; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display them except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom they possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments."

This about modesty, not control. Shielding your body allows only for people to focus on your intellect and personality. Many believe the hijab is mandatory, this is false, it is only suggested.

O believers! It is not lawful for you to consider women as a part of your inheritance and retain them against their will in order that you may force them to give up a part of the dowry you have given them, unless they are guilty of proven fornication. Treat them with kindness even if you dislike them; it is quite possible that you dislike something in which Allah has placed much good (Qur'an: 4:19)

If you wish to marry another wife in place of the one you already have, do not take back anything of what you have given her even if it be a heap of gold. Would you take it back through slander and open sin (accusing her unjustly)?[20] And how could you take it back when you have enjoyed conjugal happiness and she had taken from you a firm pledge of marriage?[21] (Qur'an: 4:20-21)

If any of your women are guilty of fornication, ask for four reliable witnesses from among yourselves against them; and if they testify and their guilt is proved, confine them to their houses until they die or Allah opens some other way out for them.[15] And the two, whether married or unmarried, who are guilty of this offense, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. Surely Allah is the Acceptor of Repentance, Merciful.[16] (Qur'an: 4:15-16)

Men are punished as well as women if they are guilty, the woman is not only to blame.

http://www.al-quraan.org...
http://www.themodernreligion.com...

Even these might not be 100% reliable as examples (meaning the websites), but I believe they are fairly reliable.
Tatarize

Con

Given the topic I must notify you that your evidence is irrelevant. Presenting evidence in favor of the proposition cannot prove the proposition which is stating a universal declaration. Giving examples of where in the Koran men and women are treated equally does not advance the proposition one jot. If I said that this basket only contains red marbles and show you several red marbles I would not prove my statement or even provide evidence for the statement. Rather, to disprove the statement would simply involve removing a blue marble from the basket.

Examples of gender equality in the Koran do not matter. I must, in order to win, provide you the proverbial blue marble:

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.

The Koran says that God instructs you to give your male children twice as much as your female children. This is not equal.

Done.

Needless to say there are dozens more clear and obvious examples of men and women being unequal.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
Debate Round No. 1
HellKat

Pro

Touch´┐Ż. But, I did not specifically say that there were no "blue marbles" as it were, I simply said that there were "red marbles", so in that sense, my points were valid. I know that women are not seen as entirely equal in all aspects, bit in many they are. Point proved.
Tatarize

Con

You did specify that there were no "blue marbles".

Such is required by the topic itself, that "Muslim women are seen as equals to Muslim men in the Qu'ran." -- If they are seen as equal in places has no bearing on the topic unless it is universal.

Allow me to draw a parallel.
1) All men and women have the right to vote.
2) All men and women will be paid the same for the same work.
3) All men and women will have equal protection under the law.
4) Wives will cook their husbands dinner, husbands will not cook.
5) All men and women have freedom of speech.

Do these laws see women and men equally? Are they perfectly acceptable on the grounds of equal rights and gender equality?

All men and women have the right to vote is perfectly equal. As is guaranteeing men and women freedom of speech and equal pay. Clearly these five rules treat men and women equally as we see by the examples I give! However, rule 4 sticks out like a sore thumb. I cannot say that all five rules treat women and men equally because rule 4 is clearly sexist. Similarly you cannot say that the Koran sees men and women as equals if there are sore thumbs all over the place.

You concede the argument: "I know that women are not seen as entirely equal in all aspects, bit in many they are." -- I need only show that they aren't seen as equals. I have done that. The argument of degree is a different argument all together. You could argue that the Koran is better than the Bible in respect of women's rights or that it's at least 90% equal. You cannot, however, successfully argue that the Koran sees men and women as equals... because it doesn't.
Debate Round No. 2
HellKat

Pro

HellKat forfeited this round.
Tatarize

Con

No opponent response.

(what the hell is up with that minimal limit, it's annoying and stupid.)
Debate Round No. 3
HellKat

Pro

"You did specify that there were no "blue marbles"."
I honest-to-goodness do not recall stating that there were no passages of the Qu'ran that said anything negative or unequal about women.

"Such is required by the topic itself, that "Muslim women are seen as equals to Muslim men in the Qu'ran." -- If they are seen as equal in places has no bearing on the topic unless it is universal."
I probably should have thought out my topic title a bit better. Maybe saying "Muslim women are mostly seen as equal to Muslim men" would have been better.

"You concede the argument: "I know that women are not seen as entirely equal in all aspects, bit in many they are." -- I need only show that they aren't seen as equals. I have done that. The argument of degree is a different argument all together. You could argue that the Koran is better than the Bible in respect of women's rights or that it's at least 90% equal. You cannot, however, successfully argue that the Koran sees men and women as equals... because it doesn't."
According to the above statement it does. In many aspects they are seen as equals.

I appologize for being rather amateurish with this debate, In all honesty with the confusion I caused I think you deserve to win more than I.
Tatarize

Con

>>I honest-to-goodness do not recall stating that there were no passages of the Qu'ran that said anything negative or unequal about women.

It is implied by the topic. If Muslim women are seen as equals to Muslim men in the Koran, then there must be nothing unequal about women in the Koran.

Mostly would be a completely different topic. I might even agree with it. Although, the references which litter the Koran almost all consistently give women's worth to be exactly half that of a man. They get exactly half as much of inheritance. You need two men for something and don't have them you can use four women or one man and two women.

You could have made the argument anything you'd want. But as it stands it is absolutely false. They may be seen as equals in many place of the Koran but that can't and doesn't win the argument for you.

Having already proven the above topic, let me sully my chances of victory by noting that in the Bible they are treated as property. As far as gender equality goes I'd have to say the Koran is far better than the Bible. Although, most of the followers of the Bible nowadays are westerners with enough enlightenment and feminist thinking that even with more retrograde divine edicts are far less inclined to make women walk around in bee-keeper suits. As the Koran however is purported to be the actual word of God (rather than a series of books inspired somehow) it a much more direct slap in the face to the potential truth of the religion. When the Bible screws up... eh... translation error. When the Koran messes up and says stupid things, that's God making a mistake.

-- Okay, even though I won the above argument... pissing everybody off with that last paragraph might give you a fighting chance.

I'll blank out my fifth round when it comes back to me.
Debate Round No. 4
HellKat

Pro

Now I don't want you to forfeit just because of the confusion I caused with my wording mistake. I'd rather lose to you knowing you gave it your all than win with your intentional help.

"Mostly would be a completely different topic. I might even agree with it. Although, the references which litter the Koran almost all consistently give women's worth to be exactly half that of a man. ...You need two men for something and don't have them you can use four women or one man and two women."
While that's a good point, I think it kind of depends on what it is they are doing, if it is heavy lifting or building or something of the sort that's not really showing they are half the worth, just that they have half the strength, which I honestly agree the majority of women do.

"You could have made the argument anything you'd want. But as it stands it is absolutely false. They may be seen as equals in many place of the Koran but that can't and doesn't win the argument for you."
And that is my fault, which I am completely willing to take the blame for.

I guess the most that I can do now is restate my argument really seeing as I messed it up for myself anyways.
For Muslim men and women - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise - for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.
(Qur'an 33:35)

And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors(Qur'an 24:4)

Qur'an 24:31 "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty except what (must) appear; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display them except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom they possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments."

This about modesty, not control. Shielding your body allows only for people to focus on your intellect and personality. Many believe the hijab is mandatory, this is false, it is only suggested.

O believers! It is not lawful for you to consider women as a part of your inheritance and retain them against their will in order that you may force them to give up a part of the dowry you have given them, unless they are guilty of proven fornication. Treat them with kindness even if you dislike them; it is quite possible that you dislike something in which Allah has placed much good (Qur'an: 4:19)

If you wish to marry another wife in place of the one you already have, do not take back anything of what you have given her even if it be a heap of gold. Would you take it back through slander and open sin (accusing her unjustly)?[20] And how could you take it back when you have enjoyed conjugal happiness and she had taken from you a firm pledge of marriage?[21] (Qur'an: 4:20-21)

If any of your women are guilty of fornication, ask for four reliable witnesses from among yourselves against them; and if they testify and their guilt is proved, confine them to their houses until they die or Allah opens some other way out for them.[15] And the two, whether married or unmarried, who are guilty of this offense, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. Surely Allah is the Acceptor of Repentance, Merciful.[16] (Qur'an: 4:15-16)
Islamic law makes no demand that women should confine themselves to household duties. In fact the early Muslim women were found in all walks of life. The first wife of the Prophet, mother of all his surviving children, was a businesswoman who hired him as an employee, and proposed marriage to him through a third party; women traded in the marketplace, and the Khalifah Umar, not normally noted for his liberal attitude to women, appointed a woman, Shaff'a Bint Abdullah, to supervise the market. Other women, like Laila al-Ghifariah, took part in battles, carrying water and nursing the wounded, some, like Suffiah bint Abdul Muttalib even fought and killed the enemies to protect themselves and the Prophet* and like Umm Dhahhak bint Masoud were rewarded with booty in the same way as the men.
Tatarize

Con

I'm not forfeiting. I've already won and there's little point pushing the issue. You may have been confused of the debate topic but the debate topic there was easily won... by me. You seem to want to shift the debate to something potentially true, and thus potentially winnable.

The Koran does not treat Muslim women as equals to Muslim men.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
I meant forfeiting the round which was what you had said you were going to do.

"I'll blank out my fifth round when it comes back to me."

"You may have been confused of the debate topic but the debate topic there was easily won... by me. You seem to want to shift the debate to something potentially true, and thus potentially winnable."

I know it was won by you, by a long shot in fact, I can accept that. I confused myself with the way I worded it, I didn't notice that I had worded it wrong until you responded. I wasn't trying to shift it so that I could win, I was trying to carify what I truly meant though I realised that after starting the debate I couldn't truly change it and therefore would end up losing the debate.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
It stopped working before I could copy it lol.
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
At that point you need to hit back on the browser, copy out the text and save it to a quick text file.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
Well then... I just had my entire argument written out and my internet stopped responding... I think i;m going to go cry now.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
The time limit must be so that the debates don't take forever. There should be something in place so that if you need more time than what is allotted you can just click a button or something and if you don't, or your account is closed, or you don't even sign on in that amount of time then the round is forfeited.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
Ah shoot. Sorry about that, I overestimated how mich time I had left.
Posted by HellKat 9 years ago
HellKat
Hadith too I geuss, yeah. If I can use anything.

Also I read in one of those websites I provided that a woman can divorce a man based simply on the fact that she thinks he`s ugly. Of course, like I said, I`m not entirely sure how reliable those interpretations are.
Posted by Lucretius 9 years ago
Lucretius
And which interpretation by which generation of ulama are you using? They've interpreted these passages differently every generation, and under different governments, there are entirely different legal structures based on the Qu'ran.

Revolutionary Iran and Saudi Arabia are both Islamic Fundamentalist countries (Iran was under Khomeini). Whereas Iran was an Islamic Republic whose ulama granted women considerably more rights than most Islamic fundamentalists would approve of, Saudi Arabia is a monarchy and interpretations of the Qu'ran impose much stricter rules on women.

Regardless, women receive half as much as men do from the inheritance, and are kept within the household. Men, according to the Qu'ran, have almost entire control of the divorce rights, and while they can take up to four wives, women can have only one husband, and usually the marriages are arranged.

Then again, many women who live under these societies have this mindset, and wouldn't view themselves as being oppressed. But from a Western mindset, the Qu'ran most definitely does not seem to make women and men equal.
Posted by Bitz 9 years ago
Bitz
I am wondering Hellkat, is this debate limited to the Qu'ran or will the Hadith also be allowed?
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