The Instigator
kwagga_la
Con (against)
The Contender
drappi
Pro (for)

Muslims claim that the God of the Bible is also the God of Islam

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/10/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 424 times Debate No: 101836
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

kwagga_la

Con

I often hear Muslims claim that the God of the Bible is also the God of Islam. This is clearly contradicting scriptures like John 3:16 that states God has a Son whereas Muslims claim that Allah does not beget. When pointing out these differences a Muslim will claim that the Bible was changed. I do not believe the Bible was changed and would like to debate a Muslim who can give evidence that the Bible was indeed changed regarding specific scriptures that clearly show that Allah is not the same God as found in the Bible.
drappi

Pro

I would like to begin my argument by stating that there are many different translations of Quran, and I will be using translations of Hamid Aziz (chosen randomly).

To begin with, verse 2/116 states that Allah has no son: "They say, "Allah takes unto Himself a son." All Glory is to Him! Nay, His is whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and all things worship (obey, glorify, praise) Him."

Another verse, 9/30 states: "The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say that Christ is the son of Allah; that is what they say with their mouths, imitating the sayings of those who disbelieved before. Allah (Himself) fights against them! How perverse are they!"

The two verses presented above should clearly show that in Islamic faith Allah has no children.

I believe the confusion about Muslims claiming that God of the Bible is also God of Islam arises from the confusion in terminology. From Islamic point of view, if we refer to the book which was revealed to Christ as the Real Bible, and the one we have now as the Changed Bible; what Muslims claim is that God of Islam and God of Real Bible are the same.

Verse 3/3 of Quran states: "It is He who has sent down to you the Scripture with truth, confirming what was revealed before it, and has revealed the Torah and the Gospel before this for the guidance of mankind, and has revealed the Discrimination (Criterion). "

Verse 3/84 of Quran states: "Say: 'We believe in God, and that which has been sent down on us, and sent down on Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, of their Lord; we make no division between any of them, and to Him we surrender.'" (this translation is from Arthur John Arberry due to a mix-up of Hamid Aziz's translation in the web page translations are taken from)

As the verses above show, in Islam, it is believed that Christ was a genuine prophet of Allah, and whatever was revealed to him were genuine verses from Allah. Since Quran confirms that Allah, God of Islam, revealed Real Bible, there should be no contradictions about God having children. The only option remaining from an Islamic point of view is that the Bible we have today has been changed in history.
Debate Round No. 1
kwagga_la

Con

Thank you for accepting the debate!

I agree with you that the Quran is specific that Allah does not have children. It is therefore clear that the God of the Bible is not the Allah of the Quran (see John 3:16 as already mentioned).

The questions here are:

You mention that the Scriptures that were revealed to Christ are the real Scriptures and suggest that those Scriptures are what is known as the New Testament. Where is the real Bible you refer too? In order to say that the present Bible is not the real Bible, one needs the real one for comparison to verify whether it is the truth or not. Without a copy of the Real Bible this claim is nothing but speculation and cannot be regarding as factual. Therefore the NT must be accepted as correct and the Quran as in error.

The Words that God spoke to Abraham etc. was recorded and preserved by the Jews. These Scriptures also says in Psalm 2:7 that God has a Son. How would you explain this? Seeing this is the Scriptures the Jews have been using long before Islam claimed Allah has no son. Needless to say, that because the Jewish OT was around before the Quran, the OT should be accepted as correct.
drappi

Pro

I should begin with stating that I am in no way an expert on any religion or belief in any community; but I can share the belief of people in my community on this matter.

People in my community believe that Torah also got manipulated through time. The rationale here is that Allah sends messengers (with or without a holy scripture) in order to warn humanity of their wrongdoings. The belief is that Jewish people manipulated Torah, and Christ and Bible were sent by Allah to reveal them his true orders, and fix their erroneous ways.

After that, Bible was manipulated and Christians started going off the rails, and this is why Muhammad and Quran were sent by Allah. I don't know much about the Old Testament or the New Testament; but if they indeed include passages that state God has a son, it contradicts with passages from Quran, and it is obvious that both parties can't be right at the same time.

At this point, I should remind that this is a matter of belief. If a person is a Christian and takes Bible as a fact; it means that person does not believe that Quran is God's message, and it is only natural that passages from Quran will yield no evidence to him/her. Similarly, if a person is a Muslim and takes Quran as a fact; the contradiction will mean that Quran is correct on that matter, and the only possibility left is that Bible has changed. It would be the same for the Old Testament; what anyone will take as the truth will depend on which religion they believe in.

However, as it is indeed a speculation to claim that Bible has been changed without having the original version to compare to, from a Christian point of view; the claim that Bible did not go through any changes is as speculative to a Muslim point of view. The fact that they are older does not necessarily mean that the one we have now is genuine.

The thing is, we do not have a copy of Bible which all parties can agree upon its genuineness, and therefore both claims will be at a tie for a neutral observer's judgement. My purpose by accepting this debate was not to prove everyone that Quran is right, and Bible was manipulated; but to show why Muslims, people who believe in Quran, believe that Bible was manipulated.
Debate Round No. 2
kwagga_la

Con

Rebuttal:

The Old Testament was known through out the history of the Jews. Not only is there a written book but also songs, traditions and inscriptions that is known that supports and compliment the written tradition. These traditions can be found in the feasts that Israel had to keep. Even today fathers tell their children how God was seen by their forefathers and how He saved them. This God of the Jewish tradition was never known as Allah, yet Muslims claim that Allah and the God of the Bible are the same. These traditions existed long before Islam arrived and continue even today. It corresponds to the Jewish Scripture and not to the Quran. This agreement between the written OT and tradition is stronger evidence than the Muslims have to make claims that Allah was actually the one spoken of in the OT.

The Dead sea scrolls dated more than a thousand years earlier than the earliest modern finds of the OT manuscripts agree with the OT we have today. That is evidence that the scriptures of the Jews did not really change and what was before Islam is still the same after Islam arrived on the scene. As mentioned earlier, only the original the Muslims claim to have existed can counter the evidence at present. Anything else is baseless speculation on their part. The Jews and Christians believe therefore in the Bible but based on evidence available today. It is not simply a head believe as opposed to the Muslims who make claims that cannot be substantiated.

You are correct saying that a document that is old do not necessarily mean it is the correct one but since the Muslims make a claim about the OT we have today it is valid in this case because they quote the OT as support for their beliefs and the book they quote contradict what they believe in many places. If we do not have the correct OT today then they should produce the correct one. If they could, we would all be Muslims today but the fact is that they have never produced this evidence.

It must also be remembered that the Muslims claim that the Old Testament stories found in the OT about Ismael is their foundation. What evidence or book besides the Quran can they claim as evidence for this? The Jews never claimed anything like that before concerning Islam; therefore the burden of evidence, producing tangible evidence, is required from the Muslims which they do not have.

The biggest fallacy in the reasoning of some Muslims so far is their reliance on the current Bible as support for their belief but claiming the current Scriptures are corrupted or changed. I say this because even if the OT was corrupted, how do they know which parts within the current Scriptures are corrupted and which is not? You see they use word games, they will say all the OT is corrupted but then quote scriptures to support what they believe. If they can quote a scripture as support then it must quite obviously be true and not corrupted. Only a fool will use a corrupted evidence to establish a fact. If certain scriptures are not corrupted then they lie when they say the whole OT was corrupted. For instance, even if the OT is corrupted, how do they know Psalm 2 was corrupted? And if they cannot prove it was then it means God has a Son. Here we are presented with the dishonesty presented in their reasoning. They claim the OT is corrupted but in their propaganda literature some claim Allah and Muhammad can be found in the Bible as support for their claim that Islam is the true religion! Even if the Bible is corrupted then what does it even matter if you can find Allah and Muhammad in the Bible? The OT is therefore worthless to them to be used as evidence to support anything within Islam because they go out of their way to prove that it was corrupted and if corrupted then untrustworthy.
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by kwagga_la 9 months ago
kwagga_la
@vi_spex I do not think I asked you this before, but how did you come to the conclusion there is no God?
Posted by kwagga_la 9 months ago
kwagga_la
@dsjpk5 I made a proposition using the word "claim" and took the Con side. What exactly did I concede?
Posted by drappi 9 months ago
drappi
@vi_spex: The way I am approaching this debate is agnostic to the existence of God. Simply put, I try to show that if you take Quran as fact, the conclusion will be that Bible has been changed.
Posted by vi_spex 9 months ago
vi_spex
this is... not debate worthy, making claims is not debating
Posted by vi_spex 9 months ago
vi_spex
there is no god
Posted by GrimlyF 9 months ago
GrimlyF
Wait 'til Drappi gets to Adam+Eve.
Posted by dsjpk5 9 months ago
dsjpk5
You need to change the resolution. You've just conceded it in your first sentence. How about "The God of the Bible is the God of Islam."?
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