The Instigator
harrytruman
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
talmid
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

My opponent is wrong

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/18/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 566 times Debate No: 85135
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
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harrytruman

Pro

So, you want a debate with maximum characters, here's your chance, I will prove you wrong in all your arguments, accept, and I will send you my argument. Here is the debate I am referring to:
http://www.debate.org...
And yes, I am a Native Aerican, so I am good with the spear. Now don't try this "you are going to hell buisness, I've gotten this from Christians and Muslims alike, both of which you hate seeing your doctrines, so unless you want to be fitted in with them, yeah, you don't. For ease of debate, I will only cite the old testament, don't worry, most of the good stuff is there anyway.
talmid

Con

THREE ARGUMENTS were issued against the Babylonian Talmud:
- Talmud, Gittin 57a - Jesus is in hell where he is boiling in hot excrement.
- Talmud, Yebamoth 98a - All gentile [Christian] children are animals.
- Talmud, Abodah Zarah 36b "Gentile [Christian] girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth. Christian women are regarded as slaves, heathen and whores.
Let us ridicule these claims one by one.

CLAIM ONE: JESUS IS IN HELL:
FIRST RESPONSE: The Jesus in the Talmud is not the same who lived in the days of the Romans. "Yeshu" was a student of Rabbi Joshua ben Perachiah (note: "ben" means "son of" in Hebrew), as evidenced by their gathering in the inn which is recorded in the Gemara in Sotah 47a. The Jesus that you worship supposedly lived in the days of Rabban Gamaliel ben Shimon ("Shimon", the father of Gamaliel, is commonly identified as the one "Simon the Godreceiver"). This serves as clear evidence that the Talmud was not referencing the Jesus whom you worship. Please learn history before you make claims. Note: I am not trying to ease you with words of encouragement. I have no intention of keeping my opinions to myself, regardless of how offensive they are, as will be evidenced by my next response. I wrote this response in order to further demonstrate your falsehood and deceit, and how off you really are.

SECOND RESPONSE: Even if this were referring to Jesus, it would be a fitting punishment if he did what he said you did. According to your books (Lk6, Mt12), Jesus profaned the Sabbath, conveniently excusing himself by calling himself "The Master of the Sabbath". In the Torah, it is written about those who profane the Sabbath: "Now, you shall speak to the Children of Israel saying: 'However you are to observe my Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you for your generations, to know that I am Hashem Who makes you holy. You shall observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Its desecrators shall be put to death, for whoever works on it, that soul shall be cut off from among its people." "For your generations" implies eternity, meaning that nobody can annul this eternal covenant. "that soul shall be cut off from among its people" implies that Sabbath desecration is a WORSE sin than it is to murder! Murderers are punished by death, but they're still considered Jews! If anyone ever says that Jesus was a Jew, show him this verse, point to the very end, and explain how Jesus was cut off from among his people. Aside from that, Jesus supposedly annulled the entire Old Testament, where it is written "THOU SHALL NOT ADD NOR SUBTRACT FROM THIS WORD THAT I GIVE YOU" clearly warning against "prophets" like Jesus who would come later and attempt to annul the Torah. In other words, if Jesus actually did what the book says he did, he IS burning in Hell, probably alongside the other Jesus which we mentioned above.


CLAIM TWO: ALL GENTILE (CHRISTIAN) CHILDREN ARE ANIMALS:
RESPONSE: I checked the source in Yevamot and to my surprise (sarcasm intended) I found no such quote. You can read the entire page yourself if you don't believe me.

CLAIM THREE: GENTILE GIRLS ARE IN A STATE OF NIDDAH (FILTH) FROM BIRTH.
You clearly have no understanding of a niddah is. It is forbidden to cohabit with a niddah, who inherits this status when she has her period. After she goes to the mikveh, she is no longer a niddah. On this page, an idolatress is a niddah from the day of her birth. There has nothing to do with "filth", as a Jewess can inherit this status also. As for them being called "slaves, heathens, and whores", the Talmud does not say that. The Talmud speaks of an idolatress, which OBVIOUSLY inherits the status of heathen. If you choose to categorize yourself with what the Talmud calls an idolater, go ahead. Fact is: The word "Christian" does not appear once in any of these pages.

CONCLUSION:
I've always said, "Christians are the masters of lies." Here we see it live and in action. You invented a quote about your Jesus, which actually wouldn't be too inaccurate since he was a massive sinner (if he did what your books said he did). You invented a quote gentile children being animals, and you took the word "niddah" out of context so that the audience, being uneducated in Jewish law, would think that it is calling all gentile women filthy. You know, when I looked up each of these claims, I found the exact same wording as that of what you used, in many different links, WITH the perentesis around the word "filth". It goes to show how brainless some people are. They see a quote, don't bother to even check it, and then repost it elsewhere spewing their lies to encourage antisemitism throughout the world. This reminds me of the blood libels that you Christians performed back in the day. It would go like this: Every Passover, you would kill one of your own children and leave the body somewhere in Jewish property, thereby exclaiming "The Jews killed our son!". They used this to support their theory that the matzah of Passover requires the blood of a Christian child to be kosher (When in reality, consuming blood is one of the worst sins Judaism). The morons believed this, and thus, people started making pogroms against the Jews. That is what you're doing now - you geniuses. You invent lies to promote antisemitism. It is repulsive, disgusting, and unfair, and it needs to stop. HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, even if the Talmud did say offensive things about your hero and about you, why does that justify the spreading of this? So that pogroms can start again and people will start killing Jewish men and raping their wives, as you people always have? What harm are we doing? Are we going around raping your wives and daughters? What's the big deal anyways? Please explain why offensive quotes in the Talmud means that you have to start attacking it, Jews, and Judaism as a whole? Perhaps if the Talmud taught that it is a commandment to kill gentiles, then it would be justified. But are you really going to take words and use them to justify antisemitism? WAKE UP!

Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

Claim 1:
Now hold on just a minute, I thought I was debating you because you believe that Jesus is in hell etc, but wait, in your debate you said he deserves to be in hell! Oh, well, that isn't correct, the actual law in Exodus 20:8:
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy"
Did Jesus disobey this, no, he remembered the Sabbath, and if anything, him healing and preforming miracles on the Sabbath made it more holy!

Claim 2:
Well that's good you aren't defending that, if so I would bring up Ezekiel 18:4, seriously, I have dealt with so many prideful jerks I had to quote it like 10 times today!

Claim 3:
You think that children can bear iniquity from what their parents did, oh well, so much for "first debate that I don't have to quote Ezekiel 18 at you", well, here you go,
Ezekiel 18:
"The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

"The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children"s teeth are set on edge"?

3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4
"Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.

5
But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6
If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor"s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7
If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8
If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9
If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully"
He is just;
He shall surely live!"
Says the Lord God.

10
"If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11
And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor"s wife;
12
If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13
If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase"
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.

14
"If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15
Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor"s wife;
16
Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17
Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor[a]
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes"
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!

18
"As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Turn and Live

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 "Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair." Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not fair." O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"

Conclusion:
Aye aye aye, really, you think this is about Antisemitism, no, how could this be about Antisemitism, I addressed your doctrine, I would have done the same i you were a Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist etc, And how can I be an Antisemitic? I'M AN ASHKENAZI JEW YOU DING DONG! The only difference between me and you is that you have 3/4ths the Bible I do.
talmid

Con

SABBATH PROBLEM: FIRST RESPONSE I am not speaking of Sabbath desecration in terms of healing. In fact, according to halacha, it is permissible to violate the Sabbath if there is a life risk. However if there is no life risk (like a small cut or bruise) it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath. If one does, he is profaning this holy day, thus making it LESS holy, regardless of who he is, whether he is the Messiah, or Moses, or Elijah the Prophet. I am speaking of when Jesus violated the Sabbath in terms of picking up wheat (Luke 6). Even if he himself didn't violate the Sabbath, he did not rebuke his students for doing so. Such a crime is unforgivable, and he and his disciples ought to have been stoned to death.

SABBATH PROBLEM: SECOND RESPONSE
- You said that by violating Shabbat when Jesus healed people, he was thus making it "holy", and also he was "remembering" it, and thus, there was no transgression involved. You pettily used a verse from Exodus which reads "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. I would respond by saying that you are: 1. misinterpreting the meaning of this verse
2. ignoring the various other verses in the Bible that deal with the Sabbath. In regard to 1, I'd argue that the meaning of "remember the Sabbath" means to literally remember it (e.x not forgetting it, thereby desecrating it unknowingly). To make it holy is to keep its laws. Please stop twisting the words of the Holy Torah. And as for 2., you have to keep in mind that the Torah warns us to keep the Sabbath TWELVE TIMES! More than anything else! And in these other places, different wording is used, for example, "You shall keep my Sabbaths. All who profane it shall be put to death and that soul shall be cut off from among his people." How can you misinterpret that? Therefore we can conclude by saying A: You were wrong about the meaning of "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" and B: Even if you were right, there are 11 other passages of the Bible that you'd have to misinterpret.

CONCLUSION: In your beginning argument, you said that you'd "prove me wrong in all of my arguments". Yet, we see that you did not touch even one of my objections to your claims against the Talmud. You gave me a little something from Ezekiel, which I do not know what it is relevant to, and you furthermore twisted and misinterpreted the passages that deal with the Sabbath. It's like I said above, Christians are the masters of lies. In your case especially, because in your beginning argument you stated that you were Native American, but in your latter argument you stated that you were an Ashkenazi Jew. This serves as clear proof that you are a pathological liar, just like all of your Christian friends. And lastly, you said that I have only "3/4ths of the Bible". I'd like to comment that A: There are 27 books of the New Testament and only 24 of the Old Testament. Please learn how 2 math. And last, your New Testament books are not authentic parts of G-d's word. They bear no weight, and they are false idolatrous books. There are mistakes in practically every chapter of your book, for example, Matt 1:8 which calls Jehoram the father of Uzziah (when in truth, Jehoram begot Ahaziah who begot Jehoash who begot Amaziah who begot Uzziah. Matthew skipped 3 generations: a genealogical mistake.)
Your book is not authentic. Jesus is not the Messiah. You are not a Jew, and if Jesus actually broke the Sabbath, he is burning in hotter fires then he would have otherwise. Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi shlit'a did a good job explaining the importance of the Sabbath here https://www.youtube.com...

Shalom. https://www.youtube.com...
Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

"I am not speaking of Sabbath desecration in terms of healing. In fact, according to halacha, it is permissible to violate the Sabbath if there is a life risk. However if there is no life risk (like a small cut or bruise) it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath. If one does, he is profaning this holy day, thus making it LESS holy, regardless of who he is, whether he is the Messiah, or Moses, or Elijah the Prophet. I am speaking of when Jesus violated the Sabbath in terms of picking up wheat (Luke 6). Even if he himself didn't violate the Sabbath, he did not rebuke his students for doing so. Such a crime is unforgivable, and he and his disciples ought to have been stoned to death."

Yep, eating food you aren't supposed to is definitely a sin, you can tell because God let David off the hook when he needed it, wait what, well, yeah, it's right here:
1 Samuel 21:6:
"So the priest gave him the consecrated bread, since there was no bread there except the bread of the Presence that had been removed from before the LORD and replaced by hot bread on the day it was taken away."

"You said that by violating Sabbath when Jesus healed people, he was thus making it "holy", and also he was "remembering" it, and thus, there was no transgression involved. You pettily used a verse from Exodus which reads "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. I would respond by saying that you are: 1. misinterpreting the meaning of this verse"

No, that is the commandment, he did not violate it, besides, you said it yourself, the Sabbath is overruled if life is at stake, how do you know that the people he healed would have died if he hadn't healed them?

"ignoring the various other verses in the Bible that deal with the Sabbath. In regard to 1, I'd argue that the meaning of "remember the Sabbath" means to literally remember it (e.x not forgetting it, thereby desecrating it unknowingly). To make it holy is to keep its laws. Please stop twisting the words of the Holy Torah. And as for 2., you have to keep in mind that the Torah warns us to keep the Sabbath TWELVE TIMES! More than anything else! And in these other places, different wording is used, for example, "You shall keep my Sabbaths. All who profane it shall be put to death and that soul shall be cut off from among his people." How can you misinterpret that? Therefore we can conclude by saying A: You were wrong about the meaning of "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" and B: Even if you were right, there are 11 other passages of the Bible that you'd have to misinterpret."

Quote them please? I also noticed you abandoned the last two claims; apparently Ezekiel 18 was too much to argue with.

"In your beginning argument, you said that you'd "prove me wrong in all of my arguments". Yet, we see that you did not touch even one of my objections to your claims against the Talmud. You gave me a little something from Ezekiel, which I do not know what it is relevant to,"

Actually Amigo, this was very relevant, you tried to say that children bear the iniquity of their parents, I quoted Ezekiel 18, where God commanded the Jews to never teach this again.

"and you furthermore twisted and misinterpreted the passages that deal with the Sabbath. It's like I said above, Christians are the masters of lies. In your case especially, because in your beginning argument you stated that you were Native American, but in your latter argument you stated that you were an Ashkenazi Jew."
Misinterpreted? Maybe you should stop keeping your head in "the law" and maybe start reading some of "the prophets", they had their heads screwed on straight, Moses, well, he didn"t, in fact God had so many issues with Moses, he almost killed him once, and he couldn"t let him into Israel either, also, Moses was a murderer and a chauvinist, you don"t argue that Moses is in hell do you, and he did things far worse than phh, "Healing on the Sabbath", so, now who"s the master of lies. This, by the way, originates from the New Testament, nice try.
I have both Native American AND Jewish ancestry, let me guess, "White people and black people can"t, I mean, Jews and Gentiles can"t marry!" Really, 5/8 Jew, 1/8 Yaqui, and " White Racist pig, I don"t like the racist pig ancestry.
" This serves as clear proof that you are a pathological liar, just like all of your Christian friends. And lastly, you said that I have only "3/4ths of the Bible". I'd like to comment that A: There are 27 books of the New Testament and only 24 of the Old Testament. Please learn how 2 math. And last, your New Testament books are not authentic parts of G-d's word. They bear no weight, and they are false idolatrous books. There are mistakes in practically every chapter of your book, for example, Matt 1:8 which calls Jehoram the father of Uzziah (when in truth, Jehoram begot Ahaziah who begot Jehoash who begot Amaziah who begot Uzziah. Matthew skipped 3 generations: a genealogical mistake.)"
Alright let"s get one thing cleared up here OK, Matthew copied his from Mark, and Mark copied his from the disciples who copied theirs from the Torrah, tons of room for mistake there, your only proof for any of your claims is something that is ridiculous.
"Your book is not authentic. Jesus is not the Messiah. You are not a Jew, and if Jesus actually broke the Sabbath, he is burning in hotter fires then he would have otherwise. Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi shlit'a did a good job explaining the importance of the Sabbath here https://www.youtube.com...;

Shalom. https://www.youtube.com......
Let"s get one thing straight, again, for one, you, as do I, represent God, people look at how we talk and act and make a judgement about our God that way,
Numbers 20:9-12:
"Moshe took the staff from the presence of ADONAI, as he had ordered him. 10 But after Moshe and Aharon had assembled the community in front of the rock, he said to them, "Listen here, you rebels! Are we supposed to bring you water from this rock?" 11 Then Moshe raised his hand and hit the rock twice with his staff. Water flowed out in abundance, and the community and their livestock drank.
12 But ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, "Because you did not trust in me, so as to cause me to be regarded as holy by the people of Isra"el, you will not bring this community into the land I have given them."
Let"s see, are you representing God"s holiness by saying Jesus is in hell, well your acting like a jerk, second Jewish person (other than myself) who I"ve met, and they"re both Jerks, yeah, now who"s spreading Anti-Semitism?
Now, I"d like to give you a vcerse concerning your laws, but I said I would not quote the New Testament because it might offend your "Jewish-ness", so first I will quote this:
"An inferior man is in a constant state of offence, but a superior man is in a constant state of peace (of mind)"- Confucius.
So, instead of quoting the verse in the new Testament, I will quote the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Guru Nanak seems to have his head screwed on straight on these issues, lets see what God says, in the Guru Granth that is:
"You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure. You look after your own interests, and so not see the interests of others. What good is your word? O Qazi, the One Lord is within you, but you do not think or contemplation on Him. You do not care for others, you are mad about religion, this is why your life is wasting away (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 483)."
Guru Nanak makes it very clear that, if you don"t act decent and respect your fellow man, God could care less about your laws.
Additionally, the law was made to protect the Jews from practices of surrounding areas, not to make them slaves to it!
I want to also address this, if you want to say that Christians are Anti-Semites, and then you have to say that all Jews are Bail worshipers, oh, but in the distant past they were bail worshipers, just look at these scriptures:
Jeremiah 19:5:
"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind."
2 Kings 3:27
"Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land. "
2 Kings 16:3
"But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and even made his son pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out from before the sons of Israel. "
talmid

Con

2 SABBATH PROBLEM: FIRST RESPONSE
1. David was starving to death (since he was fleeing from Saul), and so, the concept of pikuach nefesh (life risk) applied to him.
2. When David did what he did, that had absolutely nothing to do with Sabbath desecration. The only sin which can be committed when eating consecrated bread is being ritually impure, which David wasn't, as he himself said "Indeed, the women have been kept from us, as usual when I set out. Even on unholy missions, our bodies remain holy."
Therefore Jesus' logic when he compared his students picking the wheat to David's situation is completely false, because A: No Sabbath desecration was involved (therefore it cannot be compared to that) and B: They weren't even guilty of anything. Whoever wrote this book must have not known anything about Jewish law.

2 SABBATH PROBLEM: SECOND RESPONSE
I know that there were no lives at stake when Jesus healed the people as he did. To the best of my knowledge, he only healed the blinded and lepers. And about his students, it is said that they were hungry, but not starving. Therefore, no pikuach nefesh was involved in this situation, leaving it completely unjustified. Also, healing on the Sabbath is permitted as long as it is done in a kosher way. Waving your hand over someone and magically healing them is not against the Sabbath. Again, I would like to point at how ignorant the writers of this book were in Jewish law.

As for some of the Bible passages dealing with the importance of the Sabbath, here are some:
"The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 'But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people." -Exodus 31:12-14. "Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD" - Leviticus 19:30 "'Sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.'" - Ezekiel 20:20.

EZEKIEL PROBLEM: I never claimed that "children bear the iniquity of their parents", in fact, I recall claiming exactly the opposite.

YOUR ATTACK AGAINST THE LAW:
You not caring about the law does not make it any less important. About the law, it is written: "You shall keep My statutes and practice them; I am the LORD who sanctifies you.". We are made holy only through the Law of G-d by the hand of Moses. Jesus came and tried to annul this law according to your books, which is why you Christians have had such odious disrespect for it over the years. The law is in my head because it is vitally important in all cases, especially when dealing with one who does not follow it, which is in our case, Jesus. Without the Law, we do not get to decide who is righteous and who is wicked, who is liable and who is exempt. To push aside the law as if it is something unimportant is equivalent to pushing aside all godly values, as well as humanist values. Since your hero is a violater of this holy law, that is why you have such contempt for it.

YOUR ATTACK AGAINST MOSES:
I am absolutely repulsed by your gross and odious disrespect for Moses, about which it is written: "Never again has a prophet arisen in Israel like Moses, who knew the LORD face to face, for all of the signs and wonders which the LORD sent him to perform in the land of Egypt, against Pharaoh, his servants, and all his land, and for all the mighty power and for all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel." -Deut 34:11. Without Moses, we would not even know who G-d is. He founded the religions. He is the foundation of all that we know to be true today, including your New Testament, which is based entirely upon the revelation of Moses. Moses was the greatest prophet who ever lived, with a higher level of prophecy than even the Messiah. Most prophets received their prophecies in dreams. Others who were greater received it while awake, but only through hallucinations. But with Moses, G-d spoke with him face to face, as a friend would talk to his friend. And the same thing with Moses, who was able to communicate with G-d always, at any time of the day, unlike other prophets who had to engage in deep concentration and meditation to communicate with G-d.
- G-d would not have killed Moses. He was simply trying to scare him into performing a commandment which Moses had delayed, that of circumcision. Moses did not circumcise his son, and so G-d scared him into doing it. It had nothing to do with Moses being evil.
- G-d did not let Moses enter the land because of a minor sin which he had committed during his life, because he hit a rock (when G-d told him to speak to it. He hit it on his own initiative.) Since he was so great, G-d expected much more from him. Therefore, he was punished much more than a common man.
- Moses never did anything worse than desecrating the Sabbath. He was not a murderer or chauvinist. He acted on G-d's initiative. And even if he acted on his own, that still does not come close to Sabbath desecration, which is worse than murder.

YOUR ANCESTRY:
If you are born from a Jewish mother, who had a Jewish mother, who had a Jewish mother, so on and so forth, then you are Jewish. If not, you are 100% a gentile. There is no such thing as a "Jewntile", you are either a Jew or a gentile, there is no in between. If your mother is Native American and your father is Jewish, you are just as gentile as the Arabs.

LEGITIMACY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:
If there is even ONE error in a book, then it cannot be from G-d, because G-d is perfect, flawless, and does not make mistakes, as evidenced by the continuous uninterrupted revolution of the Earth. If your gospels have one mistake (needless to say 5 mistakes in every chapter), they are not legitimate. However, this is another topic for another time.

YOU AS A "REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD":
You Christians have caused the greatest desecration of G-d's name, more than anyone else in the entire world. From your bloody Crusades, to your ignorance in science, and to your sheer stupidity on logical matters. The atheists think of you as representatives of G-d, and so, they hate religion more and more because of it. You are the greatest chillul Hashem in the world. How DARE YOU consider yourself a representative of G-d?

IN DEFENSE OF THE BAALIST ISRAELITES:
- Just as today, there is a tremendous desire for sexual gratification, especially among teenagers, back in the day, there was a tremendous desire for idolatry, as evidenced by the nations throughout the world who all worshipped idols. There is a famous story in the Gemara, which deals with a sage named Rav Ashi, who was a master of Jewish law. Rav Ashi was once teaching his academy the history of the three most evil Jewish kings (those being Jeroboam, Ahab and Manasseh). As the day came short, it was time to leave, and so he finished the lecture with a witty scornful remark: "Tomorrow, we will begin speaking of our good friend Manasseh." That night, Manasseh came to Rav Ashi in a dream, scolding him, "How dare you call me your colleague? I am much greater than you! Tell me, O great rabbi, when we make the benediction of hamotzi, from which part of the loaf of bread must we begin to cut?" Rav Ashi was did not know the answer, and so Manasseh began to taunt him "If you do not know the answer to such a simple question, how dare you call me your friend?" Rav Ashi said, "Please tell me the answer and I will teach it in your name in my lecture tomorrow", whereupon Manasseh said that the proper place to begin cutting the bread is where it is most brown. Rav Ashi asked. "If you were so wise in the laws of the Torah, why did you worship idols?", where Manasseh replied, "Had you lived in my generation, you would have lifted the hem of your garment so as to run faster to the idols, and you would have ran after me!" From this we learn that the desire for idolatry was great in those days. The Jewish Sages prayed to G-d to destroy the desire for idolatry, and He granted their request (which is why idolatry is ceasing, and monotheism/atheism is most widespread).

- And another thing in their defense is that WHILE WE WERE BRINGING SACRIFICES IN THE HOLY TEMPLE, YOU WERE BRINGING OFFERINGS TO YOUR IDOLS ALL OVER THE WORLD. Will you really point out the short period of time when Jews worshipped idols, while you yourself have ALWAYS worshipped idols?

Shalom. https://www.youtube.com...
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Pro

Before my response, I have a few errors to correct, first off, I am not 5/8 Ashkenazi, my lineage is as follows:
My Mother was 100% Ashkenazi Jew, whereas my father, was 50%, his mother, was roughly 100% Maulocaun, which were, Turkish Jews, on his father"s side, was " Yaqui Indian, and " other, other being Americans who lived here since the American Revolution, and owned slaves, making my father " Yaqui, " White racist pig, and " Turkish Jew, this making me " Ashkenazi (German) Jew, " Maulocaun (Turkish) Jew, 1/8 Yaqui, and 1/8 White racist pig.
Next off, I called you a "Ding-Dong".
Also, I have a few questions to ask you:
Do you believe that Non-believers are going to hell?
Is God a male according to you?
How do you think wives should be treated?
How many times a day do you pray?
Do you believe that you are obligated to do good deeds?
Do you believe in Genies?
Do you believe that Women should cover their hair?
Do you think it is OK to drink alcohol?
My Response:
"1. David was starving to death (since he was fleeing from Saul), and so, the concept of pikuach nefesh (life risk) applied to him.
2. When David did what he did, that had absolutely nothing to do with Sabbath desecration. The only sin which can be committed when eating consecrated bread is being ritually impure, which David wasn't, as he himself said "Indeed, the women have been kept from us, as usual when I set out. Even on unholy missions, our bodies remain holy."
Therefore Jesus' logic when he compared his students picking the wheat to David's situation is completely false, because A: No Sabbath desecration was involved (therefore it cannot be compared to that) and B: They weren't even guilty of anything. Whoever wrote this book must have not known anything about Jewish law."

Yes, I made a mistake here, you are right about that piece, though, I made a discovery, the verses you are referring to are in Luke 4:16, Mark 2:27, and Matthew 12:1, all three of these individuals were not disciples! You are also correct here, they were not Jews either, so they did have no understanding of the laws, now, to make this clear, the gospel of Matthew was not written by Matthew, based on study of word use, was copied from Mark and a few details added in. So while Matthew was a disciple, this work was not his own, so it"s credibility is based on that of Marks. Mark and Luke was both romans commissioned to record what happened with the whole Jesus ordeal, so for research purposes, we cannot trust anything that they say. We can, however, trust the Gospel of John, only the Gospel of John, which is ironically the only gospel which does not include this story, alluding to the Sabbath gleaning thing to be most likely inaccurate.

"I know that there were no lives at stake when Jesus healed the people as he did. To the best of my knowledge, he only healed the blinded and lepers. And about his students, it is said that they were hungry, but not starving. Therefore, no pikuach nefesh was involved in this situation, leaving it completely unjustified. Also, healing on the Sabbath is permitted as long as it is done in a kosher way. Waving your hand over someone and magically healing them is not against the Sabbath. Again, I would like to point at how ignorant the writers of this book were in Jewish law."

And I will not deny this, " the gospels are unreliable. You admit his healing was not against the Sabbath, good, now we can move on.

"As for some of the Bible passages dealing with the importance of the Sabbath, here are some:
"The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 'But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people." -Exodus 31:12-14. "Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD" - Leviticus 19:30 "'Sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.'" - Ezekiel 20:20."

Well, Jesus did not profane it, unless this is a different word used in Hebrew, as to the second verse, he did show reverence toward it, and he left it sanctified, you yourself admitted that what he did was not against Jewish laws.

"I never claimed that "children bear the iniquity of their parents", in fact, I recall claiming exactly the opposite. "

Thank you for clearing this up, I thought you were defending this.

"You not caring about the law does not make it any less important. About the law, it is written: "You shall keep My statutes and practice them; I am the LORD who sanctifies you.". We are made holy only through the Law of G-d by the hand of Moses. Jesus came and tried to annul this law according to your books, which is why you Christians have had such odious disrespect for it over the years. The law is in my head because it is vitally important in all cases, especially when dealing with one who does not follow it, which is in our case, Jesus. Without the Law, we do not get to decide who is righteous and who is wicked, who is liable and who is exempt. To push aside the law as if it is something unimportant is equivalent to pushing aside all godly values, as well as humanist values. Since your hero is a violator of this holy law, that is why you have such contempt for it."

Contempt, I have no contempt against the law, I merely cited that God values how your treat your fellow man above any law, this is indeed repetitive in both the New and Old Testaments, along with the Guru Granth, I never tried to discredit the law, show contempt for it, or attack it in any way.

"I am absolutely repulsed by your gross and odious disrespect for Moses, about which it is written: "Never again has a prophet arisen in Israel like Moses, who knew the LORD face to face, for all of the signs and wonders which the LORD sent him to perform in the land of Egypt, against Pharaoh, his servants, and all his land, and for all the mighty power and for all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel." -Deut 34:11. Without Moses, we would not even know who G-d is."

Really, because last I checked, God had many previous prophets, each of which obeyed God much more than Moses. Now comes a very simple question, how can we trust Moses? Let"s examine a few verses from the Bible, Exodus 9:1:
"Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me."
Alright, simple enough, except that is not what Moses said, 5:1:
"After that, Moshe and Aharon came and said to Pharaoh, "Here is what ADONAI, the God of Isra"el, says: "Let my people go, so that they can celebrate a festival in the desert to honor me."
Huh, now that doesn"t look like what God said at all. Sounds like Moses misquoted God, let"s look at another case, this one should look familiar, Numbers 20:8-11:
"ADONAI said to Moshe, 8 "Take the staff, assemble the community, you and Aharon your brother; and before their eyes, tell the rock to produce its water. You will bring them water out of the rock and thus enable the community and their livestock to drink." 9 Moshe took the staff from the presence of ADONAI, as he had ordered him. 10 But after Moshe and Aharon had assembled the community in front of the rock, he said to them, "Listen here, you rebels! Are we supposed to bring you water from this rock?" 11 Then Moshe raised his hand and hit the rock twice with his staff. Water flowed out in abundance, and the community and their livestock drank."
Again, another Misquote, this Moses has a history of misquoting God, how can we trust anything he says? According to the bible, we should drop this case here and now, and not regard anything he says to be true.

"He founded the religions. He is the foundation of all that we know to be true today, including your New Testament, which is based entirely upon the revelation of Moses. Moses was the greatest prophet who ever lived, with a higher level of prophecy than even the Messiah. Most prophets received their prophecies in dreams. Others who were greater received it while awake, but only through hallucinations. But with Moses, G-d spoke with him face to face, as a friend would talk to his friend. And the same thing with Moses, who was able to communicate with G-d always, at any time of the day, unlike other prophets who had to engage in deep concentration and meditation to communicate with G-d.
- G-d would not have killed Moses. He was simply trying to scare him into performing a commandment which Moses had delayed, that of circumcision. Moses did not circumcise his son, and so G-d scared him into doing it. It had nothing to do with Moses being evil.""

Exodus 4:18-31:
"Moshe left, returned to Yitro his father-in-law and said to him, "I beg you to let me go and return to my kinsmen in Egypt, to see if they are still alive." Yitro said to Moshe, "Go in peace." 19 Adonai said to Moshe in Midyan, "Go on back to Egypt, because all the men who wanted to kill you are dead." 20 So Moshe took his wife and sons, put them on a donkey, and started out for Egypt. Moshe took God"s staff in his hand. 21 Adonai said to Moshe, "When you get back to Egypt, make sure that you do before Pharaoh every one of the wonders I have enabled you to do. Nevertheless, I am going to make him hardhearted, and he will refuse to let the people go. 22 Then you are to tell Pharaoh: "Adonai says, "Isra"el is my firstborn son. 23 I have told you to let my son go in order to worship me, but you have refused to let him go. Well, then, I will kill your firstborn son! At a lodging-place on the way, Adonai met Moshe and would have killed him, 25 had not Tzipporah taken a flintstone and cut off the foreskin of her son. She threw it at his feet, saying, "What a bloody bridegroom you are for me!" 26 But then, God let Moshe be. She added, "A bloody bridegroom because of the circumcision! Adonai said to Aharon, "Go into the desert to meet Moshe." He went, met him at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 Moshe told him everything Adonai had said in sending him, including all the signs he had ordered him to perform. 29 Then Moshe and Aharon went and gathered together all the leaders of the people of Isra"el. 30 Aharon said everything Adonai had told Moshe, who then performed the signs for the people to see. 31 The people believed; when they heard that Adonai had remembered the people of Isra"el and seen how they were oppressed, they bowed their heads and worshipped."

Examine this particulatr verse, Exodus 4:24:
"At a lodging-place on the way, Adonai met Moshe and would have killed him,"
Yeah, it says it right there, that God would have killed him, so, unless you want to say that God is a liar, you have to admit that God would have killed Moses.

"G-d did not let Moses enter the land because of a minor sin which he had committed during his life, because he hit a rock (when G-d told him to speak to it. He hit it on his own initiative.) Since he was so great, G-d expected much more from him. Therefore, he was punished much more than a common man.
Moses never did anything worse than desecrating the Sabbath. He was not a murderer or chauvinist. He acted on G-d's initiative. And even if he acted on his own, that still does not come close to Sabbath desecration, which is worse than murder."

Really, because it says God would have killed him. Next off, you are contradicting yourself, you cited, yourself, how, under the pikuach nefesh, human life matters far more than ANY LAW, so now the Sabbath is above human life, you better just get one doctrine, and not contradict yourself.
This particular comment is almost hilarious, or, it would be, if so many people didn"t believe it, but they do, so it is more scary than hilarious;
"He was not a murderer or chauvinist"
Well, for someone who supposedly reads the bible so religiously, you do seem to know very little about it, Here is scripture evidence of him being a murderer, keep in mind, God does not lie, so if the Bible says it, it"s true;
Exodus 2:12:
"He looked this way and that; and when he saw that no one was around, he killed the Egyptian and hid his body in the sand."
And, here is scriptural evidence of him being a chauvinist;

"If you are born from a Jewish mother, who had a Jewish mother, who had a Jewish mother, so on and so forth, then you are Jewish. If not, you are 100% a gentile. There is no such thing as a "Jewntile", you are either a Jew or a gentile, there is no in between. If your mother is Native American and your father is Jewish, you are just as gentile as the Arabs."

I explained my lineage above amigo, here is what I said:
"My Mother was 100% Ashkenazi Jew, whereas my father, was a little different, hi mother, was roughly 100% Maulocaun, which were, Turkish Jews, on his father"s side, was " Yaqui Indian, and " other, other being Americans who lived here since the American Revolution, and owned slaves, making my father " Yaqui, " White racist pig, and " Turkish Jew, this making me " Ashkenazi (German) Jew, " Maulocaun (Turkish) Jew, 1/8 Yaqui, and 1/8 White racist pig."

"If there is even ONE error in a book, then it cannot be from G-d, because G-d is perfect, flawless, and does not make mistakes, as evidenced by the continuous uninterrupted revolution of the Earth. If your gospels have one mistake (needless to say 5 mistakes in every chapter), they are not legitimate. However, this is another topic for another time."

You speak of the bible as if it fell from the sky; in fact, there is only a few verses that actually fell from the sky, that being the Ten Commandments. The point is, God is perfect, but he did not write the bible, he told humans to write in the bible, and humans, are not perfect. Regardless, we can confirm the authenticity of certain books such as kings, chronicles, or Judges, because they are more of recorded history than revelations. We can confirm the authenticity of the prophets based on the consistency with other prophets, but can we confirm the law, not so much, because there was only one witness; Moses, according to these verses, we should not trust something based on the testimony of only one witness,
Deuteronomy 19:5:
"One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
Deuteronomy 17:6:
"On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness."

"You Christians have caused the greatest desecration of G-d's name, more than anyone else in the entire world. From your bloody Crusades, to your ignorance in science, and to your sheer stupidity on logical matters. The atheists think of you as representatives of G-d, and so, they hate religion more and more because of it. You are the greatest chillul Hashem in the world. How DARE YOU consider yourself a representative of G-d?"

Excuse me, you are misquoting my statement, I said that we are all representatives of God, me, you, every Jew/ Christian, because people make judgments on God based on how Jews/ Christians act, you even backed this up, that this is why atheists hate JudeoChristianism. And, finally, my statement was based on fact, meaning that people make a Judgment of God based on how we act, not that "God has sent me to be his representative" as you are suggesting.

"Just as today, there is a tremendous desire for sexual gratification, especially among teenagers, back in the day, there was a tremendous desire for idolatry, as evidenced by the nations throughout the world who all worshipped idols. There is a famous story in the Gemara, which deals with a sage named Rav Ashi, who was a master of Jewish law. Rav Ashi was once teaching his academy the history of the three most evil Jewish kings (those being Jeroboam, Ahab and Manasseh). As the day came short, it was time to leave, and so he finished the lecture with a witty scornful remark: "Tomorrow, we will begin speaking of our good friend Manasseh." That night, Manasseh came to Rav Ashi in a dream, scolding him, "How dare you call me your colleague? I am much greater than you! Tell me, O great rabbi, when we make the benediction of hamotzi, from which part of the loaf of bread must we begin to cut?" Rav Ashi was did not know the answer, and so Manasseh began to taunt him "If you do not know the answer to such a simple question, how dare you call me your friend?" Rav Ashi said, "Please tell me the answer and I will teach it in your name in my lecture tomorrow", whereupon Manasseh said that the proper place to begin cutting the bread is where it is most brown. Rav Ashi asked. "If you were so wise in the laws of the Torah, why did you worship idols?", where Manasseh replied, "Had you lived in my generation, you would have lifted the hem of your garment so as to run faster to the idols, and you would have ran after me!" From this we learn that the desire for idolatry was great in those days. The Jewish Sages prayed to G-d to destroy the desire for idolatry, and He granted their request (which is why idolatry is ceasing, and monotheism/atheism is most widespread). "

You did not reply to my statement, I said that if you want to call Christians Anti-Semites because in the distant past they killed Jews, then you will have to say that Jews are Bail worshipers because in the distant past they worshiped bail. So, what is it, all Jews are Bail worshipers, or you were wrong about all Christians being Anti-Semites.

"And another thing in their defense is that WHILE WE WERE BRINGING SACRIFICES IN THE HOLY TEMPLE, YOU WERE BRINGING OFFERINGS TO YOUR IDOLS ALL OVER THE WORLD. Will you really point out the short period of time when Jews worshipped idols, while you yourself have ALWAYS worshipped idols?"

3/4ths of my lineage is Jewish, which is in this case beside the point, the Yaquis never sacrificed to Idols, and the 1/8 of my lineage being Americans here since the revolution, which was British, yeah, the druids, native Brittan"s, were Satanists.
talmid

Con

Q/A:
"Do you believe that non-believers are going to hell?" - Anyone who worships idolatry or denies G-d has a place reserved for him in Hell. You are an idol worshiper, and so this would apply to you (unfortunately).
"Is G-d a male according to you?" - Extremely chilidish, silly, and stupid question. G-d is formless, beyond all properties of matter, and cannot be compared to anything in this world. It is needess to say that he is neither a male nor a female.
"How do you think wives should be treated" - There is an obligation for every Jewish man to respect his wife. Say you have a man and his wife in a hotel room with only one mattress, the man should sleep on the floor and let his wife sleep on the mattress.
"How many times a day do you pray?" - In Judaism, the rule is to pray 3 times a day. Once in the morning, then in the afternoon, and finally in the evening.
"Do you believe that you are obligated to do good deeds?" - We are obligated to do everything that the Torah commands us to.
"Do you believe in Genies?" - No.
"Do you believe that women should cover their hair?" - Only married women. However, it is praiseworthy for an unmarried woman to cover her hair, even though she has no obligation to do so.
"Do you think it is OK to drink alcohol?" - It is extremely unrecommended to drink alcohol, except on Shabbat and on the holidays. However, there is no official halacha against drinking per se. While the Sages discourage it, they never prohibited it.

YOUR DENYING THREE EVANGELICALS:
It seems that the Sabbath issue has been resolved. Nevertheless, we still have some other issues here to resolve. How can you say that three of your most authentic and respected books are all flawed? If they are flawed, how can you rely on them? If you can't rely on them, why did you not omit them from your canon? And why is the Gospel of John different from the rest? It is full of errors also. John is also an amusing book, because of its sheer obsurdities, for example:
1. Jesus' gross disrespect for his mother. See 2:4, which reads, "Woman, what does that have to do with me!?" - while his poor mother was just making an innocent point.
2. Jesus' temper tantrum recorded in 2:15 which reads: "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables"

2 YOUR ATTACK AGAINST MOSES:
This is a particularly complicated issue due to your colossal misunderstanding of scripture and the way the world works in general. Hopefully, I will succeed in pointing out what a confused individual you are by displaying your mass ignorance of scripture, and lack of logical reasoning in general.
Before we begin, I'd first like to illuminate the fact that we only know of the prophets who lived before Moses BECAUSE Moses wrote about them in the Torah, and for no other reason. He wrote about their deeds, and he also wrote about his deeds. Since he is completely honest and godfearing, who never wrote even one word according to his opinion, he wrote the truth about himself, and his sins, unlike Jesus, about whom no sin is ever [intentionally] recorded, and the same with Muhammad, because these are books of lies that like to cover up everything. Each and every letter of the Torah is from the mouth of G-d by the hand of Moses. To say that Moses was a liar, and bringing proofs for this from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy is extremely hypocritical to no extent, since he himself wrote these books. Please awaken from your slumber of deludedness. And about him misquoting G-d, he never did so. G-d said to Moses to tell Pharaoh to let them go so that they can serve him. Moses said to let them go, so that they can serve him, although he said it in a bit more detail. "Celebrate a festival" refers to the service and "in the desert" refers to the actual Pharaoh letting Moses go part. Again, I'd like to point out that this was all written by Moses, in case you forgot. As for his hitting the rock, I explained above that he was punished for that by not being allowed to enter the land of Israel. As for G-d almost killing him, I admit I was wrong on that one. But we can't know for sure what was going on there, for there are many mysteries of the Torah. As for the rock/delayed circumcision somehow being a contradiction, remember that the event with the rock took place much later. Get your history straight. As for the Sabbath being worse than murder, there is no contradiction between that and pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh is a unique halacha, which annuls ALL mitzvot, not just the Sabbath, with the exceptions of idolatry, sexcrimes, and murder. There is no connection between pikuach nefesh and Shabbat. It just happens to override Shabbat, as it does with all the other mitzvot, other than the 3 mentioned above. Shabbat desecration is still worse than murder, nonetheless. Again, I'd like to remind you that these 5 books were all written by Moses, so to use them to criticize them is very stupid.

MOSES WAS THE ONLY WITNESS?:
First, you imply that the G-d told people to write the Bible but genuinely allowed them to screw it up here and there. This comes from your lack of Jewish education. Each and every word of the tanach is inspired by G-d. G-d told people EXACTLY what to write, and they wrote EXACTLY what they heard. They were not told "make up your own story", please get that out of your head.
Second, the issue of Moses being the only witness is just such an utterly ridiculous claim that it makes me want to puke. You're so ignorant of scripture, it is beyond me how you consider yourself knowledgeable in the Bible. When G-d first came to Moses and told him to speak to the people, he had doubts, and said "They won't believe me!", so instead of getting angry at Moses, G-d agreed, and gave him signs. Still, these signs were not enough to prove that G-d was with him, for they could have been the works of the black magics. And that is where the chapters of 19-20 Exodus comes in, where G-d speaks PUBLICLY to EVERYONE in order to put down the claims that Moses was making it all up. Therefore, you can't say he was the only witness. ALL OF ISRAEL witnessed G-d on Sinai. Also, I'd like to point out another mistake you made in this regard: G-d only uttered the first two of the commandments. The rest of them were given by Moses. The original plan was for G-d to tell the people all of the commandments, but they weren't able to tolerate it, so the plan changed after the second commandment. Before we close the Moses issue, I'd like to remind you one more time: Any crimes which appear to have been performed by Moses in the Torah cannot be used against him, for he wrote it. Furthermore, Moses is the founding father of all tradition. He restored the forgotten knowledge of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The books of the later prophets are only branches from his original and authentic work, the Holy Torah.

EVERYONE IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF G-D?:
Only the Jews represent G-d. Christians represent their selfish selves. As I said above, no desecration of G-d's name has ever been greater than that caused by the Christians. If you really think of yourself as a representative of G-d, you have to do some research on your history. Christians, Hindus, Pastafarians, and the like, are all pagans who do not represent G-d in the slightest. They represent their idols, their false perverted ideas of what G-d is.

VIOLENT CHRISTIANS:
Baal worship in Israel took place thousands of years ago. Christian violence has always been present, since the founding of their cult, to the Crusades, and even recently. The KKK, Nazi Germany, and other evil groups all identified themselves as Christians, which cannot be compared to the Jews who sinned long ago. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no desire to kill and torture people for no reason, but there WAS a desire to worship idols. In two ways, you're wrong. And also, the Yaquis did follow a false god, which makes them fall under the category of heathens. There is no difference between a heathen and an idol worshiper whatsoever, it is just a different way of living in the way of paganism. All the same, like two crayons of different color.

Shalom.

(PS I apologize for any grammar mistakes, or if I missed anything. I wrote this late at night while I was tired."
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Pro

""Do you believe that non-believers are going to hell?" - Anyone who worships idolatry or denies G-d has a place reserved for him in Hell. You are an idol worshiper, and so this would apply to you (unfortunately)."

I am not an idol worshiper, so your answer is a yes.

""Is G-d a male according to you?" - Extremely chilidish, silly, and stupid question. G-d is formless, beyond all properties of matter, and cannot be compared to anything in this world. It is needess to say that he is neither a male nor a female. "

No, okay.

"How do you think wives should be treated" - There is an obligation for every Jewish man to respect his wife. Say you have a man and his wife in a hotel room with only one mattress, the man should sleep on the floor and let his wife sleep on the mattress. "

Respectfully, ok, good answer.

""How many times a day do you pray?" - In Judaism, the rule is to pray 3 times a day. Once in the morning, then in the afternoon, and finally in the evening."

3, good.

"Do you believe that you are obligated to do good deeds?" - We are obligated to do everything that the Torah commands us to."

Hmm, yes/no, interesting.

"Do you believe in Genies?" - No. "

No, good.

"Do you believe that women should cover their hair?" - Only married women. However, it is praiseworthy for an unmarried woman to cover her hair, even though she has no obligation to do so."

Yes, ok, interesting.

"Do you think it is OK to drink alcohol?" - It is extremely unrecommended to drink alcohol, except on Shabbat and on the holidays. However, there is no official halacha against drinking per se. While the Sages discourage it, they never prohibited it."

Yes,
Good, the reason I asked you those questions was because I was suspicious of you being a Muslim, considering your doctrines, if you were a Muslim, your answers would be as follows;

Yes; yes; they are their husband"s property; 5; no; yes; no,
If you were a Jew you would answer this:

No; No; Respectfully; 3; Yes; No; Yes

Your answers were this:

Yes; No; Respectfully; 3; Yes/No; No; Yes; Yes.

So your doctrines are 68.75% Jewish, 31.25% Islamic, confirmed, so you are not a Muslim, you are just a Jew with some BAD doctrines

"YOUR DENYING THREE EVANGELICALS:
It seems that the Sabbath issue has been resolved. Nevertheless, we still have some other issues here to resolve. How can you say that three of your most authentic and respected books are all flawed? If they are flawed, how can you rely on them? If you can't rely on them, why did you not omit them from your canon? And why is the Gospel of John different from the rest? It is full of errors also. John is also an amusing book, because of its sheer obsurdities, for example:
1. Jesus' gross disrespect for his mother. See 2:4, which reads, "Woman, what does that have to do with me!?" - While his poor mother was just making an innocent point.
2. Jesus' temper tantrum recorded in 2:15 which reads: "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables" "

This was a very simple mistranslation; you do not consider it disrespectful to say "Hey man that was cool" or something like that when referring to a man eh? How is this different, well there are sexist jerkoffs who talk to their wife/ mother like that, hence we assume it is sexist, and as you will note, no one who is not a chauvinistic jerk refers to their wife/ mother that way. But if you actually look at the Greek definition, the word was guna, which was used to refer to your mother/ wife/ sister/ etc. So the correct translation would read:
"What does that have to do with me mom?"

Also, Jesus"s "temper tantrum" as you call it, was not actually a temper tantrum, there was a bunch of swindlers, and he chased them out. What he did was 100% correct, and justified. But I could debate you on this topic too.

"2 YOUR ATTACK AGAINST MOSES:
This is a particularly complicated issue due to your colossal misunderstanding of scripture and the way the world works in general. Hopefully, I will succeed in pointing out what a confused individual you are by displaying your mass ignorance of scripture, and lack of logical reasoning in general.
Before we begin, I'd first like to illuminate the fact that we only know of the prophets who lived before Moses BECAUSE Moses wrote about them in the Torah, and for no other reason. He wrote about their deeds, and he also wrote about his deeds. Since he is completely honest and god fearing, who never wrote even one word according to his opinion, he wrote the truth about himself, and his sins, unlike Jesus, about whom no sin is ever [intentionally] recorded, and the same with Muhammad, because these are books of lies that like to cover up everything."
There is no record of Jesus"s sins because there are none, he"s the messiah and hence incapable of sin, but we can debate about that in another debate, which I would be happy to debate you on, but in another debate.
Anyway, there is a big difference between Jesus and Mohammed, in fact, these guys were basically polar opposites, and you will not find one flaw with the teachings of Jesus, not the epistles, but Jesus. Whereas the unholy Qur"an contains many evil doctrines, each illustrated in this Article:
https://docs.google.com...

"Each and every letter of the Torah is from the mouth of G-d by the hand of Moses. To say that Moses was a liar, and bringing proofs for this from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy is extremely hypocritical to no extent, since he himself wrote these books. Please awaken from your slumber of diluteness. And about him misquoting G-d, he never did so. G-d said to Moses to tell Pharaoh to let them go so that they can serve him. Moses said to let them go, so that they can serve him, although he said it in a bit more detail. "Celebrate a festival" refers to the service and "in the desert" refers to the actual Pharaoh letting Moses go part. Again, I'd like to point out that this was all written by Moses, in case you forgot. As for his hitting the rock, I explained above that he was punished for that by not being allowed to enter the land of Israel. As for G-d almost killing him, I admit I was wrong on that one. But we can't know for sure what was going on there, for there are many mysteries of the Torah. As for the rock/delayed circumcision somehow being a contradiction, remember that the event with the rock took place much later. Get your history straight. As for the Sabbath being worse than murder, there is no contradiction between that and pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh is a unique halacha, which annuls ALL mitzvot, not just the Sabbath, with the exceptions of idolatry, sexcrimes, and murder. There is no connection between pikuach nefesh and Shabbat. It just happens to override Shabbat, as it does with all the other mitzvot, other than the 3 mentioned above. Shabbat desecration is still worse than murder, nonetheless. Again, I'd like to remind you that these 5 books were all written by Moses, so to use them to criticize them is very stupid."

Alright first off, the pikuach nefesh states that human life is above the Sabbath, hence violating human life (murder) is worse than violating the Sabbath. Now, I established, that the bible refers to murder far more times than the Sabbath; even assuming that there really is 14 times that the Talmud mentions the Sabbath. Here are 15 verses that establish murder as a sin:
Genesis 4:10-12 (1)
Genesis 9:5-6 (2)
Exodus 20:13 (3)
Exodus 21:12-14 (4)
Leviticus 24:17 (5)
Numbers 35:16-1 (6)
Deuteronomy 4:41-44 (7)
Deuteronomy 5:17 (8)
Deuteronomy 17:6 (9)
Deuteronomy 19:5 (10)
Deuteronomy 19:11-12 (11)
Proverbs 1:11 (12)
Proverbs 1:16 (13)
Proverbs 6:17 (14)
Proverbs 28:17 (15)
So yes, murder is far worse than desecrating the Sabbath, which Jesus never did, regardless, I am more than willing to have a separate debate concerning murder being worse than the Sabbath.

"MOSES WAS THE ONLY WITNESS?:
First, you imply that the G-d told people to write the Bible but genuinely allowed them to screw it up here and there. This comes from your lack of Jewish education. Each and every word of the tanach is inspired by G-d. G-d told people EXACTLY what to write, and they wrote EXACTLY what they heard. They were not told "make up your own story", please get that out of your head.
Second, the issue of Moses being the only witness is just such an utterly ridiculous claim that it makes me want to puke. You're so ignorant of scripture, it is beyond me how you consider yourself knowledgeable in the Bible. When G-d first came to Moses and told him to speak to the people, he had doubts, and said "They won't believe me!", so instead of getting angry at Moses, G-d agreed, and gave him signs. Still, these signs were not enough to prove that G-d was with him, for they could have been the works of the black magics. And that is where the chapters of 19-20 Exodus comes in, where G-d speaks PUBLICLY to EVERYONE in order to put down the claims that Moses was making it all up. Therefore, you can't say he was the only witness. ALL OF ISRAEL witnessed G-d on Sinai. Also, I'd like to point out another mistake you made in this regard: G-d only uttered the first two of the commandments. The rest of them were given by Moses. The original plan was for G-d to tell the people all of the commandments, but they weren't able to tolerate it, so the plan changed after the second commandment. Before we close the Moses issue, I'd like to remind you one more time: Any crimes which appear to have been performed by Moses in the Torah cannot be used against him, for he wrote it. Furthermore, Moses is the founding father of all tradition. He restored the forgotten knowledge of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The books of the later prophets are only branches from his original and authentic work, the Holy Torah."

You are not really responding to my argument, how are we to know that these commandments (the 613 commandments) really came from God or if Moses was just making a few up.
Also, the Talmud was not written by Moses OK, but I will be more than happy to have a separate debate with you about Moses not writing the Talmud, I don"t have enough rounds to establish this.

EVERYONE IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF G-D?:
Only the Jews represent G-d. Christians represent their selfish selves. As I said above, no desecration of G-d's name has ever been greater than that caused by the Christians. If you really think of yourself as a representative of G-d, you have to do some research on your history. Christians, Hindus, Pastafarians, and the like, are all pagans who do not represent G-d in the slightest. They represent their idols, their false perverted ideas of what G-d is.

No, people such as Sikhs, Jews, and Christians represent God, because they supposedly worship God. Now, let"s look at the definition of pagan:
"Someone holding religious beliefs aside from major world religions, especially polytheism"
Yeah, Christianity does not match this, in fact it is THE biggest religion, and, we are not polytheists, well, a lot of Christians believe in the Trinity, which is kind of polytheism, Hindu"s are polytheists, and Pastafarians, eh, well they are Monotheists, except they are not theists, they are pastaists, so they are not polytheists, because they are neither poly, nor are they theists, they are monopastaists. Also, Christians do not worship idols, I do not know where you got this idea from.

VIOLENT CHRISTIANS:
Baal worship in Israel took place thousands of years ago. Christian violence has always been present, since the founding of their cult, to the Crusades, and even recently. The KKK, Nazi Germany, and other evil groups all identified themselves as Christians, which cannot be compared to the Jews who sinned long ago. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no desire to kill and torture people for no reason, but there WAS a desire to worship idols. In two ways, you're wrong. And also, the Yaquis did follow a false god, which makes them fall under the category of heathens. There is no difference between a heathen and an idol worshiper whatsoever, it is just a different way of living in the way of paganism. All the same, like two crayons of different color.

First, there is no "Christian cult", unless you are referring to the Catholic Church, which was yes, a cult, but not a Christian cult. The Catholic Church had issues because their mission statement was "Go forth and Conquer and to conquer", which was soley satanic, you won"t find in in the New Testament. The crusades were not violent, well, not for no reason, they fought against the Muslims to reclaim the promise land from them. Now, the KKK is not Christians OK, their group is held together by racism, not Christianity, but racism, and these racists try to pass themselves off as Christians. The truth is, they are not, racism is condemned in Christianity, right here in James Chapter 2, you should read it thoroughly, then make judgements about Christianity. Nazi Germany, I knew you would bring this one up, Nazi Germany was not Christian, Hitler knew that his evil empire could not contain Christianity because it is a religion of peace, well, if you obey it that is. So he invented his own religion, he revived the Old Germanic Gods and made Germanic Paganism the new state religion. Nazi German wad pagan, not Christian. You are right, a lot of evil was done by people claiming to be Christians, but were not actual Christians. Finally, the Yaqui"s did not worship a false God, they worshiped "the great spirit", which was, God. If you want to debate the Great Spirit being god, I would be happy to challenge you to another debate, separately.

Shalom.

(PS I apologize for any grammar mistakes, or if I missed anything. I wrote this late at night while I was tired."

Here is a list of things I think we should finish covering:
Jesus being the Messiah- http://www.debate.org...
Murder being worse than violating the Sabbath- http://www.debate.org...
The Great Spirit being God- http://www.debate.org...
talmid

Con

OBSURDITIES IN JOHN:
- You tried to defend Jesus' disrespect towards his mother by implying that it was not a sexist remark, when in reality, i never attacked him for sexism. I attacked him for the disrespect that he had towards his mother, by saying "What does that have to do with me" - a very repulsive statement to say to your own mother. You left this unaddressed. Being the conservative that you are, you immediately picked up that I was making an attack against sexism in the New Testament, which I never did. To conclude: you either evaded or missed the point. About Jesus' temper tantrum, I did not derive this from his having driven out the swindlers, but his flipping the tables though...

SINLESS JESUS:
You implied that no where did Jesus ever comit a sin, but I pointed out that he stood by as his disciples desecrated the Sabbath. In order to circumvent this issue, you denounced the books of Mark, Matt and Luke. But that is just one sin, there are many others, such as annuling the law, which is a big sin, as it is written: "Do not add nor subtract [...]". And as for his teachings being flawless, really? How can you say that it is permissible to sin all you want and as long as you accept Jesus, you will be saved? That is very flawed, repulsive, and offensive, for when we look at the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed, you are coming to imply that they all went to Hell for not accepting Jesus, but HITLER, the ONE WHO KILLED HIM, has a chance of going to Heaven, because he might have accepted Jesus, and there are indications that he did.

Due to the lack of arguments, the following lengthy topis will be addressed in other debates.

PIKUACH NEFESH AND SABBATH BEING WORSE THAN MURDER CAN BE ADDRESSED IN ANOTHER DEBATE.

THE ISSUE OF MOSES INVENTING LAWS CAN BE ADDRESSED IN ANOTHER DEBATE.

THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND JESUS' MESSIANICSHIP CAN BE ADDRESSED IN ANOTHER DEBATE.

CONCLUSION:
I looked at your arguments and noticed great desperation in them. I was wondering why you couldn't properly answer almost anything that I said for example:
1. I refuted your claim that Moses was the only witness
2. I pointed out that any sin performed by Moses which is found in the Torah is not material to be used against him, since he wrote it, in complete honesty.
3. I pointed out the hypocrisy of your denying three of the four evangelicals, and to evade this, you addressed other issues.
In a nutshell, you did not even touch one of my questions.

And then I remembered something: You cannot expect something from someone if he does not have it, and in this case, this is the truth. I can barely imagine the nightmare of not being able to answer the objection of someone who attacked my faith. It truly does sound depressing, which is why I welcome you with open arms to return to your heritage, that being the heritage of the Jewish people. I guarantee you that just because you don't have the answer to a question, that does not mean that the answer does not exist. In Judaism, we are all about questions and answers. The whole Talmud is questions and answers, asking philosophical and halachic questions all of the time. I am looking forward to have further debates with you on various topics, in an attempt to bring you back to the Holy Mesorah and abandon the dead cold life that you live. Please send me more debate challenges and hopefully we will be able to settle things. If you're not interested in having actual debates, you can send me your questions privately, any questions that you want, such as "Is there any proof that G-d exists? Is there any proof that it is our G-d and not the Hindu gods? How can it be that the Torah says this here and then it says that there?" I will NEVER tell you that you just have to believe. All of your questions will be answered, and if you do not like the answer then I will give another answer, until it is all sweet to your palate. I have no negative feelings toward you nor do I mean anything that I say toward you in a malevolent way. My only intent is to bring you back to Avichah Shebashamayim.

Shalom. https://www.youtube.com...

Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by harrytruman 8 months ago
harrytruman
Hmm, I was looking through here to see who it was that posted that thing about Ezekiel 4 months ago to find that it was Yavneh, also, round 1 you said "if the Talmud says to kill textiles" it turns out that it does. Anyway, you Wil probably tell me I am a Shabbat decorator but Shabbat isn't for like another 2 minutes so-.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@harrytruman

Jeremiah 14:2 Iudah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish, they are blacke vnto the ground, and the crie of Ierusalem is gone vp.

You're an idiot. I don't care about your feelings, I do not spare your feelings (Isaiah 58:1), neither does God.

By the way, it seems that you are Talmid.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
Also, Jeremiah 14:2 says that Judah will be under siege.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
Again, you try to win a argument by just insulting someone and hoping it makes you look smarter, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, being a jerk doesn't make you seem smarter, quite the opposite. Also, you need to drink more prune juice.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@Nicholesarah

If you read the comment section correctly, I'm asking him a question. He answered but gave no evidence to back up what he said. You quoted this, "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"- maybe you should tell him this because I'm ready to pull out Scriptures. By the way, I ain't no dumb modern day "Christian." I don't privately interpret the Scriptures as the modern day dumb "Christians" do. That is why precept MUST be upon precept - Isaiah 28:10. I am a real Jew, a real Israelite, the covenants were written for the real Israelties. He is not a real Jew or Judahite. The real Jews or Judahites are black (Jeremiah 14:2). So maybe you should do a little researching yourself and learn how to read correctly before you open your dumb mouth.
Posted by Nicholesarah 1 year ago
Nicholesarah
Each one accepting this doctrine, The Divine right of Kings, or twisted "Headship" doctrine (self throned pastor/priest as lord, without questioning), either makes each one of themselves into a little wanna-be Messiah, and sets themselves up as an idol or follows someone who does. This always lead to a lack of respect for human life. Including, other nations, woman, children and even animals. What about the christian pastor I saw knocking on a neighbors door to "witness" to her and kicked her cat out of the way and laughed? I have personally tried to comfort woman raped and beat by their christian husbands. I have many friends say, "never go into a business with a christian" and they all have a story to tell. A couple I know was renting apartments in New York, after a couple years they said that every person who talked about being a christian in the application process ended up eventually not paying their rent and generally causing problems. It seems being a christian entitles you to be crooked with your money because somehow christian status entitles you to this. My point is, all these evidences lead me to believe something is terribly wrong at the root of Christian theology.
Posted by Nicholesarah 1 year ago
Nicholesarah
Hi TheWordisLife,
I read your comments. Talmid is15 years old and yourself? What?
34 years old.
It does seem that this young man Tamid does know what he is talking about to large extent. You, the adult, appear to be baiting him with childish antics.
You accused him of blasphemous "gibberish".
The word gibberish is defined as, "foolish, confused, or meaningless words" (Merriam-Webster)
His writing seems neither confused, meaningless or to be simple foolishness.
Maybe (out of your own Bible) you should remember it says, "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"
Christians pronounce an interpretation of a Bible verse, then threaten that if the hearer doesn't simply accept and obey this interpretation that they will be guilty of "witchcraft" then they say, "Rebellion is as sinful as witchcraft, and stubbornness as bad as worshiping idols". Taking this scripture out of it's own context, and putting themselves in the place of G-d. Idolatry. This Christian doctrine derives from The Divine Right of Kings, a pagan concept, all the way through, yet, you will be had pressed not to find a Christian who doesn't believe it, or a pastor who doesn't spout this pagan non-sense, that has lead to mass slaughter of innocents, without any thought. Did the Creator imbue us with a mind, for the purpose that we would never use it? It reminds me of the "beloved and esteemed" John Calvin (founder of Calvinist movement) who burnt a once dear friend to death, with green wood (to make it especially torturous) Why? What was his friend's error??? His "friend" respectfully brought up a biblical objection to Calvin's interpretation. These are the result of the Divine Right of Kings being passed to every christian leader? We have these Christians, who do not believe in good works, but commit wholesale genocides and atrocities beyond reckoning, while cleaving to pagan ideologies, in the name of their lord.
Posted by BloomingRaine 1 year ago
BloomingRaine
Oh my god, this is intense...
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@talmid

When did Jesus break the Sabbath?
Posted by Nicholesarah 1 year ago
Nicholesarah
I think this debate is fascinating. It appears to be between two strong willed young men. Neither is stupid but both are young. It is still possible that iron will sharpen iron? Although they don't seem to view each other as friend. Debate and challenging of one anther's views may not be a bad thing.

"Open rebuke is better than concealed love"

right?
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