The Instigator
mojodancer
Con (against)
The Contender
TheGadfly
Pro (for)

Mystical Experiences be can be validated

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/25/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 4 weeks ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 295 times Debate No: 107082
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

mojodancer

Con

It is assumed by those who have had a mystical experience, whether induced by years of meditation or by a single dose of LSD or similar drugs, that the truthfulness of the experience is attested to by its sense of "realness". The criticism of skeptics is often met with a statement, "You have to experience it yourself and then you will understand." This means that if one has the actual experience he will be convinced by its intense feeling of reality. "I know it was real because it was more real than my talking to you now." But "realness is not evidence. I therefore refute and deny that such experiences can be validated as real or true.
TheGadfly

Pro

"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."- Nikola Tesla
The way a person who does not posses a microscope can validate the presence of microorganisms, in the same way a person who does not have a higher faculty of perception can not validate the existence of higher dimensional phenomena. Therefore, if some one wants to see microorganisms he must have a microscope in the same manner, in order to sense mystical occurrences one must develop higher faculty.
Why would someone believe Galileo in sixteenth century when that someone didn't look in the telescope for himself?
The way clergy in those days influenced beliefs of people, in that very same manner today science is influencing common man with it's claim of reliability of scientific method. Most of us do know how clergy was corrupted in itself and by the powerful who knows even science might be corrupted today for the same very reason. We all must not forget how the debate of consciousness regarding quantum physics was suppressed in the beginning of twentieth century among notable scientists like Einstein and Niel Bohr.
Debate Round No. 1
mojodancer

Con

Smiles

My position is that such experiences can not be validated; they can not be confirmed, checked nor proven. I do not deny that mystical experiences can be "true" and "real". I deny that they can be proven as such. I accept and agree with your comments. But they do not refute my position.

I had a dream about a red and green frog like kangaroo. Yet I can never prove I had such a dream. For the experience is beyond such validation. Likewise If I were to claim that I have had a mystical experience I would be unable to "prove" my claim. My position holds firm
TheGadfly

Pro

Well to be to the point they can be confirmed, checked and proven if the other person is equipped with the higher faculty. Here the object of criticism is not mystic experience or its validation but human perception about it. Why it has to be different from one person to another? Since you agree that mystical experiences are true, then you should bear in mind that the validity of presence of an object is not a problem but the blindness of the viewer is. The problem does not lie in the real world of Plato but with the men in cave.
I would rather raise objection on the choice of your words describing your stance i.e. "Mystical Experiences can be Validated". Even a kid would say 'no' if it is taken on a shallow level but being a grown up who is into metaphysics and believes that there is much more to what can be perceived by senses I should be worried about equipping people with such a capability with which it can be validated.
Debate Round No. 2
mojodancer

Con

In your use of Plato"s cave, you infer that those in the cave are not in the "real world".

You write "Even a kid would say 'no' if it is taken on a shallow level but being a grown up who is into metaphysics and believes that there is much more to what can be perceived by senses" ;

I agree with the latter, for dogs can hear what we can not.

Your appeal to maturity via contrast with a "Kid" is a weak "argumentum ad verecundiam" and is invalid and irrelevant.

You state a concern "I should be worried about equipping people with such a capability with which it can be validated". Such a concern or worry is also irrelevant in this debate.

I did not agree that mystical experiences are true.

I actually wrote "I do not deny that mystical experiences can be "true" and "real".

I wrote "can be" this infers the contrary and opposite.

I also made a distinction between "True" and "Real".

You state above "Well to be to the point they can be confirmed, checked and proven if the other person is equipped with the higher faculty".

A person with such a higher faculty for mystical experiences does not make the experience logically necessary true or real.

In theory it is possible that an evil higher dimensional intelligence could cause a person to have a mystical experience that seems "real" and "true" but is actually a delusion and untrue. Such a being could deceive.

As I stated in my opening comment ""realness is not evidence" . In other words "Realness is not necessary truthfulness"
You have yet to refute my position that such experiences can not be validated as real or true.
TheGadfly

Pro

By my "use of Plato's Cave" I am trying to infer that in order to validate the presence of the real world, cave men have to be untied.
Last year I read a novel based on a true story of an Irish witch, i.e. Brida by Paulo Coehlo. There is a part in which the leading character has some mystical experience, more like an inter dimensional travel. During all that time she is accompanied by her master and whatever she sees is seen by him.
Apart from that we have psychics or the people who can see through everything. They no doubt can validate such occurrences for you.
I do agree that such experiences can be false ones if coming from the evil entities but then there are people who know. The people who have the "microscope" or "telescope". Hence, I will again return my point that I mentioned earlier that the problem is not validation but the presence of equipment for testifying.
Debate Round No. 3
mojodancer

Con

Your reply is an example of "ignoration elenchi".

The reiteration of the introduction of a problem " the problem is not validation but the presence of equipment for testifying" (sic) is of the same fallacy.

You are both missing the point and introducing a red herring (changing the subject).

Ignoratio elenchi is to miss the point or to change the subject

My position is that "mystical experiences can not be validated as real or true".
The reasons that you give actually support my position.

You write " I read a novel based on a true story of an Irish witch, i.e. Brida by Paulo Coehlo"

A novel based on a true story is not a true story.

If I grant the "truth" of the anecdote you state "the leading character has some mystical experience, more like an inter dimensional travel. During all that time she is accompanied by her master and whatever she sees is seen by him"

This is not a validation of truth.

The shared mystical experience could be a shared delusion, or a shared deception. The shared experience can not be validated as true.

You write "we have psychics or the people who can see through everything. They no doubt can validate such occurrences for you"

You are presenting hearsay as evidence.. Hearsay is generally considered very weak evidence if it is considered evidence at all. Testimony based on hearsay is extremely weak and in all likelihood, they are often either pure fabrications or exaggerations. Due to something called the confirmation bias and the wishful thinking fallacy, those who already believe in such phenomena are likely to accept such stories as evidence for their truthfulness when, in fact, such stories are not evidence.

If I for the sake of debate, allow you to present such as evidence. You claim that these persons "They no doubt can validate such occurrences for you"

To validate "no doubt" is a strong statement. It means to be certain that it is true and it cannot be contradicted or disproved. If something is without doubt, it is completely certain

How can such persons validate the occurrences beyond doubt?. For they themselves my have been deceived in the experience.

You write "I do agree that such experiences can be false ones if coming from the evil entities but then there are people who know"

You define such people as "The people who have the "microscope" or "telescope". Using your metaphor. How do we know that they are using the "microscope" or "telescope" correctly?

Once we establish that they are indeed expert users of the tools. How do we know that their interpretation of what they are seeing is correct?

How do they know that they are not being deceived? Please present the evidence to support your statement that this can be validated with no doubt.

You have presented no argument nor evidence that refutes my position that mystical experiences can not be validated as true or real
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by canis 3 weeks ago
canis
I had 2 ghost following me around at work in 2008-10, (one left in 09)...Validated by me... I love my cat..But it can not be validated by my cat or me..."An sich".."an mich"...But never "an uns".
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
to Gadfly (part 5 ) spelling and typo corrected from part 4

Aaron another volunteer had the following experience;

There are no doors, there"s nothing to go through. It"s either over here- it"s dark; or over there- there are images. You just can"t do anything with them. It was Mayan hieroglyphics. It was interesting . The hieroglyphics turned into a room, (Strassman; 2001, page 181).

Strassman makes the following comment concerning the hallucinations of the volunteers.

We all dream of unusual places and things. However, our volunteers not only saw these things, but felt an unshakable certainty that they were actually there. Opening their eyes at anytime superimposed this reality with their now-manifest but previously invisible one. Neither were they asleep. They were hyperaware and awake., (Strassman; 2001, page 183).

We perceive reality via PHS and reflecting upon our perception. Psychologist call this reflection "reality-testing"

Any manipulation of PHS interferes with our perception of reality. When PHS is disrupted or in any way distorted; or manipulated "other realities" are believed to be perceived. Some of the manipulated PHS can have strong FS and give the impression of being more "real than real".

Realness is a property of PHS and FS and not a test of truth or reality. Anything experienced in an ASC is suspect.
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
To Gadfly (Part 4)

Continued

Aaron another volunteer had the following experience;

There are no doors, there"s nothing to go through. It"s either over here- it"s dark; or over there- there are images. You just can"t do anything with them. It was Mayan hieroglyphics. It was interesting . The hieroglyphics turned into a room, (Strassman; 2001, page 181).

Strassman makes the following comment concerning the hallucinations of the volunteers.

We all dream of unusual places and things. However, our volunteers not only saw these things, but felt an unshakable certainty that they were actually there. Opening their eyes at anytime superimposed this reality with their now-manifest but previously invisible one. Neither were they asleep. They were hyperaware and awake., (Strassman; 2001, page 183).

We perceive reality via PHS and reflecting upon our perception. Psychologist call this reflection "reality-testing"

Any manipulation of PHS interferes with our perception of reality. When PHS is disrupted of in any way distorted; or manipulated "other realities" are believed to be perceived. Some of the manipulated PHS can have strong FS and give the impression of being more "real than real".

Realness is a property of PHS and FS and not a test of truth or relaity. Anything experienced in an ASC is suspect.
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
To Gadfly (part 3)

continued

When our ego is distracted from the primary psycho- hieroglyphical stream; we enter an Altered State of Consciousness ( ASC)
In the altered state, PHS can be manipulated by outside forces. ASC"s also "interfere" and distort HSP giving rise to hallucinations and a "mixing up" of the senses. In certain brain diseases the HSP is effected.

It is possibly during an ASC for persons to become aware of PHS in its coded form (un-decoded form, i.e. raw psycho- hieroglyphics).

Aldous Huxley in his 1955 lecture to the American symposium on psychedelic substances, referring to mescaline experiences states;

When the eyes are closed, visionary experience begins with the appearance in the vision field of living, moving geometries. These abstract three-dimensional forms are intensely illuminated and brilliantly coloured. (Huxley; 1955; Horowitz & Palmer ; 1977 page 63).

Dr Rick Strassman researched the effects of the powerful psychedelic drug DMT. One volunteer who had a low dose of DMT was said to have;

"encountered symbols that were rich with meaning; There were visuals at the peak, soft and geometric. They were 3-D circles and cones and shading. They moved a lot. It was almost like looking at an alphabet, but it wasn"t English. It was like a fantasy alphabet".It felt like there was some information in it, like it was data. It wasn"t just random," (Strassman; 2001, page 178).

Another volunteer a thirty-eight year old architect reports;

What"s interesting is that I began experiencing sets of hallucinations and then I said to myself "Ah this is the Logos." There"s a blue-yellow core of meaning and semantics, basically. ".It"s like threads of words or DNA or something. They"re all around there, they"re everywhere"..Then it breaks into ruffled reality"It is! I don"t know if it"s because of my interest in computers or not, but it seems like it"s raw bits of reality, (Strassman; 2001, page 179).

Aaron another volunteer had the
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
To Gadfly (Part 2 )

continued

The letters or symbols on the page are static, they do not move. It would be difficult to read a sentence if the letters kept moving, or worse if the letters themselves kept changing.

How does the brain transmit the data into the mind? The meta-model of Psycho- Hieroglyphical Streaming. (PHS) viz;

There is a constant stream of data in symbolic form which is presented or projected into the mind (perceived by the mind).
The symbols themselves are animated, as apposed to static. They move in relation to each other and shift shape. They are three dimensional geometric symbols that form patterns with and within each other. The understanding of this constant stream of psycho- hieroglyphics is innate.

If this page were to contain psycho- hieroglyphics. As you looked at the stream of symbols.
They would disappear and you would perceive the information that they carried.( we are unconscious of the symbols , and only aware of the concept or meaning)

There is also something which I call "Field-Strength".

The PHS has what I have called a field-strength (FS), the stronger the FS the greater the perception (the more "real" the perception).
Some memories when recalled have a weakened FS, and at times we wonder if we lived the experience or dreamt it. The mind as well as the brain can produce these psycho- hieroglyphics and perceive them i.e. dreams and the imagination.
Imagine a white horse, can you visualise it? The horse in your imagination has a weak FS. If it had a stronger FS the horse would appear "more real". The FS concept is very important.

When our ego is distracted from the primary psycho- hieroglyphical stream; we enter an Altered State of Consciousness ( ASC)
In the altered state, PHS can be manipulated by outside forces. ASC"s also "interfere" and distort HSP giving rise to hallucinations and a "mixing up" of the senses. In certain brain diseases the HSP is effected.

It is possibly during an ASC for per
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
To Gadfly (this is part 1 of 4)

The term "see" can mean physical visual perception or mental perception as in " I see what you mean". We can not see thoughts visually via the physical eye. But we can perceive (see) them mentally. As in seeing a a horse in our imagination. We can see the horse in our mind.

You ask what kind f matter are thoughts made of ? This is interesting as it touches upon the nature of thoughts and how the brain and mind interact. I researched this subject many years ago and wrote the following.

The relationship between the brain and the mind has never been understood. It is one of the great mysteries of life. In extremely simplistic terms Psycho- Hieroglyphical Streaming (PHS); is a method (meta-model) of understanding the brain/ mind relationship.

When you read these words, light photons are reflected from the page (mobile phone or computer screen) and enter your eye. Within the eye via the retina the optic nerve is stimulated and neuro- electrical "data" is carried along the optic nerve into the brain. Where somehow the information is "projected" into and perceived by the mind. All sensory information is perceived in this way.

The page that you are reading now; contains printed writing. The writing is made up of sentences, these form concepts.
The sentences themselves are created by placing words in relation to each other. The words themselves are formed by placing certain symbols in relation to each other.

Once we learn to read the symbols that make up the words; we can follow the concepts written on the page. The symbols from which we construct the words are called letters.

Once we have learned the meaning of the symbols we can read the page and be totally unconscious of the letters (symbols) on the page, especially if we are totally engrossed in what we are reading. It is as if we are unconscious of the symbols , and only aware of the concept or meaning.
Posted by TheGadfly 4 weeks ago
TheGadfly
Can we see thoughts? How do we validate them? What kind of matter are they made up of?
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
erratum

I meant to write

Thoughts have many sources both external and internal
Posted by mojodancer 4 weeks ago
mojodancer
Thoughts have many sources. external in internal.
Posted by TheGadfly 4 weeks ago
TheGadfly
Dear Undulating_Myelin! It's not about the wiring but about the electricity itself. Before discussing further I would like to know where thoughts actually come from. What are they actually made up of? What exactly intuition is? Why all this... because our response to the stimulus or perception is dependent upon these things.
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