The Instigator
BrettBoelkens
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
CosmoJarvis
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

NCR (Pro) vs Caesar's Legion (Con)

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2017 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 389 times Debate No: 103226
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

BrettBoelkens

Pro

In Fallout New Vegas, there are several primary factions such as the Brotherhood of Steel, New California Republic (NCR), Caesar's Legion and Mr. House. If the two largest factions, the NCR and Legion conflicted against each other and waged war, one must ask who would win. I take the side of the NCR, primarily due to their technological advantage, and the Legion's lack luster governmental setup.

Technologically speaking, the NCR is much better prepared. The Legion's soldiers will use guns if forced to, yet at the same time, their opponent is willing to use vertibirds, chems, power armor and guns. Due to their continued usage of such tech, the NCR soldiers are prepared to use them. And from their industrialization, the NCR could continue to produce guns. Much like Japan in WWII, the Legion wouldn't be able to take such an industrialized super power. Not only will they not use advanced weaponry, they couldn't get easy access to it. But one may ask what does it matter if they are years ahead of the Roman rip-off Legion? Technology itself doesn't win a battle. The Brotherhood of Steel had vastly superior prowess, yet they were bested many times by the NCR. Guerrilla warfare can be quite effective. But that forces me to digress to my next point.

The Legion doesn't resemble Rome at its height as Caesar would like to believe it does. Rather it resembles its fall. Caesar has no contingency plans for his death. If he dies, he goes the way of Romulus and Remus and into the wastebasket of history. Hell, even Caesar himself believes this. If push comes to shove, the NCR could just wait it out. The man has a freaking tumor in his brain, eventually, he's going to kick the bucket. Compare this to the NCR, which because of the fact that it is a functioning democracy, President Kimball could be killed, but someone else could easily take his place. The only possible way the Legion could get out of this problem is by making Caesar's death much like a dying and rising god such as Jesus and incorporating this into the Cult of Mars.

1.First round is acceptance and opening arguments
2.Don't forfeit
3.No new arguments in round 3
CosmoJarvis

Con

Outline:
I. Caesar's Legion
II. Fallout New Vegas
III. Soldiers
IV. Allies and Enemies
V. Technology

I. Caesar's Legion

Caesar's Legion, commonly referred to as "The Legion," is one of three major factions in Fallout New Vegas. The Legion is a mighty, imperialist empire based off of the ancient Roman Empire. It was founded in 2247 by Edward Sallow, now known as Caesar, and Joshua Graham. The Legion's army consists of slaves and tribals.

II. Fallout New Vegas

Fallout New Vegas takes place in the year 2281 in the Mojave Wasteland. At this time, the NCR has a weak grasp on the Mojave. While they've established various camps throughout the Mojave including Camp Golf and Camp McCarran, and while they have annexed some farms and villages, they face a great deal of opposition from groups such as the Powder Gangers, Mr. House, and, most notably, the Legion. The Legion have advanced to Cottonwood Cove, and have established campsites beyond NCR lines, already demonstrating the NCR's failure in maintaining their territory. At this time, the NCR and Legion are fighting over control of Hoover Dam and, while the NCR currently controls it, the Legion is not far from taking it.

The game, Fallout New Vegas, tasks the player, the Courier, with deciding the fate of the Mojave Desert by joining a faction, be it the NCR, Legion, Mr. House, or Yes Man. Ultimately, the one who will control Hoover Dam and the Mojave is the one the Courier sides with.

III. Soldiers

The legionaries and the NCR soldiers are very different. Firstly, unlike the Legion soldiers, NCR soldiers are conscripts, people who voluntarily join the NCR around the age of 18. On the contrary, Legion soldiers, typically descendents of reconditioned tribals or slaves, are trained at a young age, spending most of their childhood studying tactics, discipline, and using weapons. Their years of experience make legionaries far more superior in combat than NCR soldiers. Secondly, upon interacting with a NCR soldier, you may get one of the following responses: "Patrolling the Mojave makes you wish for a nucear winter," "When I got this assignment I was hoping there would be more gambling," or "It's been a long tour, all I can think about now is going back home." Legion soldiers, however, would say "Ave, true to Caesar," "Give me cause, Profligate," "Degenerates like you belong on a cross," or "Retribution!" The quotes of NCR soldiers demonstrate their disinterest in their job, instead concerning themselves with the dreams of being able to return home to their family, relaxing, or gambling. This behavior can also be drawn by the NCR soldiers' behavior in the city of New Vegas. Many NCR soldiers in New Vegas drunkenly walk the streets, holding an empty bottle of beer, laughing with their fellow intoxicated soldiers and catcalling nearby gamblers and residents. The Legion, on the other hand, show great zeal for their cause. They proudly chant "Ave, true to Caesar!"and set themselves aside from citizens, jeering at them with titles like "proflogate," clearly showing that, unlike the NCR troopers, the legionaries strongly believe in their cause and will even be willing to die for the Legion's cause.


IV. Allies and Enemies

The NCR has few allies in the Mojave, with only the Followers of the Apocalypse and Mr. House. While the NCR has strong ties with these groups, its imposing presence in the Mojave has made many enemies. Local raider gangs including but not limited to the Vipers, Jackals and Fiends often raid NCR camps, hurt and even kill NCR citizens, and steal important food, ammunition, and gun shipments. The NCR, however, is unable to fight back (without the Courier's help) because of its small numbers, issues in communication, lack of resources, and because the NCR is occupied in far more pressing issues such as the Legion. The NCR also faces fierce opposition from some of the larger players in the Mojave including the Brotherhood of Steel, and the Great Khans. The BoS and Great Khans have both been involved in conflicts with the NCR, such as the Bitter Spring Massacre and the Battle of Helios One, and have since then passionately abhorred the NCR.

The Legion, on the other hand, are rich in allies. They have strong ties with the Omertas, a powerful group of mobsters that own the very popular casino in New Vegas, Gomorrah. They are also allies with the Great Khans, which I have explained earlier, zealously hate the NCR, and ten tribes including including the Twisted Hairs and the White Legs.

V. Technology

Finally, I'd like to address the technology both the NCR and Legion use. While the NCR tends to rely on technology, the Legion rejects it, instead committing to prewar weaponry including fragmentation grenades, assault carbines, and explosive collars, and slave labor. The Legion's rejection of most prewar and postwar technology, however, does not necessary mean that the NCR is far more superior.

It can be argued that they have suffered from their reliance on technology. Firstly, the sole reason as to why they want to take control of sites such as Hoover Dam and Helios One because of their potential to produce energy necessary for their many encampments and towns, yet, controlling these areas have been costly. To hold Helios One from the Brotherhood of Steel, they had to enlist hundreds of soldiers and use a myriad of weapons, ammunition and other supplies. The Battle of Helios One also resulted in the BoS' unconditional hatred towards the NCR. However, even after successfully taking Helios One, the NCR have failed to utilize the power plant's full potential. They're completely clueless on how to use the facility and have been so desperate to find out how to use it that they've enlisted the help of Fantastic, the idiot wearing sunglasses, who also has no clue as to how to operate the facility. As we all know, holding Hoover Dam has been a very costly struggle as well, spurring the fierce war between the Legion and NCR, and with the war going on, the NCR has not been able to use the dam to generate power. Secondly, the NCR usually lakc the "superior technology" such as arms and medical supplies because of the army's inability to extend their resources to other camps or because local raiders threaten shipments and steal their supplies. This can be witnessed at Camp Forlorn Hope, a destitute NCR camp on the verge of collapse. They see the most action from Caesar's forces among all the other NCR camps, however, their supplies are scarce, lacking enough medical supplies and weapons to protect themselves. Because of the nearby raider groups and Caesar's Legion, many of their supply lines have been destroyed. Without the Courier's intervention, they are undoubtedly doomed to fall to the Legion. On the other hand, the Legion is very self-sufficient. Its constantly-expanding territory has won the empire a wealth of resources, soldiers, and slave labor. And, with its surplus of slave labor, the Legion has managed to produce enough resources including food, clothing, weapons, and other goods to sustain itself.
Debate Round No. 1
BrettBoelkens

Pro

Of course, as anyone who knows a minuscule of knowledge of the game, the Battle of Hoover Dam is a battle, not the war. Whatever faction wins doesn't automatically win the war. This is about if they would win.

SOLDIERS
Unlike the NCR, which descended from the vaults and has almost existed a hundred years, Caesar's Legion is only a few decades old. Soldiers still remember the tribes they came from. Upon Caesar's eventual death, they more likely than not disband the Legion, for two reasons. First, it's more likely than not the death of the quasi Roman religion. Upon his death, the Legion would crumble after the death of the Son of God, their savior from the wreckage of humanity. WIthout Caesar, the Cult of Mars would become an empty husk of its old self. Or if the empire does survive, it will likely spilt, like Shia and Sunni did after the death of Muhamad. Funny enough, if the Followers of the Apocolypse sent the knowledge of the religion's fraud and fakery and it's charlatan leader, that may end it. Second, due to the fact that there is no plan set for his death. Not only would they be required to find a new leader (democracy isn't an option), they would need to find a new way for them to fit into the religion. The empire is a theocratic thralldom, and as Shakespeare said, Theology is a fortress; and no crack in a fortress may be considered small.

Additionally, I've known many members of the US military that have a lack luster interest in their jobs. And no one really questions their effectiveness as a superpower. The NCR soldiers in New Vegas can be drunk simply due to the fact that they can be. It's protected by Mr. House. And again, I've heard countless stories of military men getting sloshed and getting
a little frisky.

ALLIES AND FRIENDS
Of course, the NCR has enemies, every nation does. But so does the Legion. And don't let down MR. House's position, he does own the most powerful city on the west coast. And he defended himself against nukes for God's sake. He's a

TECHNOLOGY
The very reason that the Legion is able to supply it's soldiers easily, is because they require much less. Anyone with a half a brain knows that to make an army of skirted swordsmen takes a lot less material. Both of the factions don't know how to operate the dam, yet that doesn't mean that they're on equal footing. That would be fallacious. Also, try going without medicine in the battlefield, it doesn't turn out well.
CosmoJarvis

Con

I'd like to address my opponent's rebuttals and counters to my arguments point by point.

"Of course, as anyone who knows a minuscule of knowledge of the game, the Battle of Hoover Dam is a battle, not the war."

(Mildly offended)

"Upon Caesar's eventual death, they more likely than not disband the Legion, for two reasons. First, it's more likely than not the death of the quasi Roman religion. Upon his death, the Legion would crumble after the death of the Son of God, their savior from the wreckage of humanity. WIthout Caesar, the Cult of Mars would become an empty husk of its old self."

This is a very valid concern for Caesar's Legion, as it is what seems to be a monarchy or dictatorship, similar to Julius Caesar. However, the Legion possesses a hierarchy that would maintain the Legion for generations. If Caesar were to die, a Legate would presumably take his position. A Legate is not an ordinary soldier. This position is exclusive to those that demonstrate an impregnable sense of loyalty and devotion to Caesar's Legion. They are very tactful military leaders and combatants. If Caesar's Legion was left in the hands in a Legate, the Legion would undoubtedly be able to not only survive, but prosper. On the contrary, the NCR chooses its leaders not by their military prowess or skills, but by how charismatic and popular they are. The NCR's leadership is ultimately decided by the citizens of the NCR in a democratic election. With that being said, there's always a chance that a greedy, careless, or imprudent leader will be elected to serve a full term as leader of the NCR.


"Additionally, I've known many members of the US military that have a lack luster interest in their jobs. And no one really questions their effectiveness as a superpower... And again, I've heard countless stories of military men getting sloshed and getting
a little frisky.


Your personal experiences is not valid evidence to advocate your points and refute mine.

"Of course, the NCR has enemies, every nation does. But so does the Legion. And don't let down MR. House's position, he does own the most powerful city on the west coast. And he defended himself against nukes for God's sake."

While Mr. House may be considered an ally of the NCR (and while I did describe him as one in round one), he views the NCR with great suspicion and what could be described as resentment, giving them only limited power in his city of New Vegas. This can be shown with the Mr. House ending in the game. Mr. House and his army of upgraded securitrons run the NCR out of the Mojave, claiming the Hoover Dam for himself, demonstrating his intolerance towards the NCR.


"The very reason that the Legion is able to supply it's soldiers easily, is because they require much less. Anyone with a half a brain knows that to make an army of skirted swordsmen takes a lot less material."

I disagree with this statement entirely. Yes, the Legion reject using advanced technology, instead prefering to use weapons such as throwing spears and machetes. However, they also rely on technology and weaponry including stealth boys, anti-material rifles, super sledges, assault carbines, revolvers, and lever-action rifles.


"Also, try going without medicine in the battlefield, it doesn't turn out well."

While the Legion admittedly rejects most medical treatments as they perceive the extension of one's life with medical procedures as greedy and wasteful, the Legion does use some medicine including healing powder that, at the cost of perception, heals the user at an alarmingly fast rate.

While the NCR embraces medical science, in the Mojave, they very often have medicine shortages and lack enough doctors. I brought up the example of Camp Forlorn Hope. Camp Forlorn Hope had only one doctor and was lacking in vital medical supplies that it needed for four soldiers with terrible, if not fatal, injuries and diseases. Without the intervention of the Courier, it is likely that these people would not get the medical attention they would have needed and might even succumb to their injuries and die.
Debate Round No. 2
BrettBoelkens

Pro

Envision a hypothetical scenario, in which you are in a cave in the Middle East, by a stone, formerly blocking its entrance, now rolled away. As you enter with a team of archeologists, you find a dead man wrapped in a bloody cloth. Pierced in his sides, holes in his hands, whip marks from lashes abound, and a crown of thorns pressed onto his head. An inscription is present from Joseph of Arimethia, saying that he took the body after his crucifixion and concealed it there. You have found the body of Jesus Christ. Essentially, this would be the death of Christianity. Imagine the chaos after the discovery of the death of the Son of God, who never really was quite so. One just needs to replace the Jewish Nazarene with Caesar and the Cult of Mars, and you more or less have the same situation (sometimes he is worshiped as a god, other times as a divine prophet). But Caesar's situation is worse. Ignoring the fact that the foundation's of the theocracy have been pulled right from underneath itself, you have the exigent political problems. One might ask, why couldn't a Legate usurp leadership of the Legion as CosmoJarvis has proposed. But I must answer this question with another question, which Legate gets the title of Caesar? I'm assuming you mean Lanius, and depending on your choices, he may become Caesar. Lanius, the blood thirsty maniac who asks to murder the survivors of his own tribe after joining the Legion. Lanius, the man whose name in Latin literally means butcher. Lanius, the man who has the disapproval of Caesar and the leader of frumentarii, Vulpes Inculta. This is the man that you think will prosper the empire after Caesar's death. Besides that, what evidence does my opponent have that he can replace Caesar in his cult of personality? None. In the words of Caesar himself "Some might call him a great man, but I'm not sure he qualifies." Inevitably, Caesar will die, whether it be from assassination, war, sickness, or the brain tumor (Father died from cancer quickly in Fallout 4, and they actually had good medicine). Much like after the death of Muhammad or Joseph Smith, sectarianism will thrive no matter what.

Onto the portion of allies and enemies. In one of the endings, Mr. House does too have a full house, taking over the hoover dam. But logically speaking if we are talking about a battle between the NCR and the Legion, Mr. House has everything to gain by joining the NCR, and everything to lose he joins the Legion. They aren't the biggest fans of technology, and especially securitrons. That very fact is a non-starter for a relationship between the two, because of his army of securitrons, and the very fact that the senescent Mr. House himself is, for all intents and purposes, one. Also due to the fact that the Legion derides intoxicating beverages and gambling, you aren't exactly going to be having a Caesar's Palace. The Legion and Mr. House mix about as well as honey and rancid goat milk. The Legion too has its enemies, such as the Raiders. The Omertas only choose to attack the Strip because of their lust for power. If the opportunity came, they have no ideological ties to the Legion and could very well betray them. And you have the some of the same problems as with Mr. House because of their casino.

How about technology? A war in the Mojave would not easily allow for Guerilla warfare, due to its primarily desert terrain. Typically, in war, a faction wins either by using newer technology or using older technology better than everyone else. And the latter only really works in special circumstances, like the Vietnam War where the Viet-Cong was being helped by the Soviet Union and Communist China. I've proved that the NCR has much superior technology since they have vertibirds and power armor. My opponent's Camplorn Hope that he constantly cites as somehow being an example of the NCR being inferior to the Legion, making an exception the rule. But of course, this is one town of many. The President isn't going to send a dying town to battle, he's going to send the whole backbone of the army. Compare this to Caesar's army, where most of the army is the lowly Legionnaire, who is first set up with only crude machetes, improvised throwing spears, and antiquated firearms to battle their foes with. Only the most advanced warriors get advanced weapons such as thermic lances to anti-materiel rifles.

In conclusion, the NCR would beat the Legion, due to their superior technology, their ally Mr. House, and the inevitable death of Caesar causing religious/political shambolic chaos throughout the Legion. For my opponent to win, he must at the very least explain how the Legion will survive the death of their "god", and Mr. House's allegiance to the NCR.
CosmoJarvis

Con

Caesar's Legion is a vast and mighty empire that has managed to occupy and control Arizona, the Grand Canyon and the eastern portion of the Colorado River. The soldiers within the Legion's ranks have an impregnable sense of pride for the cause they would very much risk their lives for unlike the gloomy, impassionate NCR. The Legion relies more on physical strength and agility, and tends to use stealth boys, machetes, throwing spears, anti-material rifles, assault carbines, revolvers, and super sledges. The NCR, on the other hand, entirely relies on pre-war and post-war weapons. And while many might presume that the NCR's reliance on advanced weaponry would make them seem like they'd easily outdo the Legion, because of the NCR's failure to deal with local raider outfits including the Powder Gangers and Fiends, many of their shipments including food, medicine and weaponry have been stolen or destroyed, leaving them weakened and defenseless. The Legion, however, seem to hardly, if ever, encounter this problem because of the army's self-sufficiency and well-guarded military shipments. Like the Romans, Legion military shipments would be protected by a group of armed guards on the journey to their end location. And, possessing an extensive workforce of slaves, the Legion can produce its own crops and produce armor and weapons.

The New California Republic, or NCR, is a large federation based in California with villages and cities in Nevada, Oregon, Mexico and along the California River. However, while the NCR has managed to expand far greater than the Legion, the NCR must also spread out its soldiers, partitioning its limited weapons, medicine, food, and other technology (including the vertibirds my opponent has boasted about) to every soldier. This, in effect, has crippled the NCR's ability to claim holdings in the Mojave and take control of the Hoover Dam. Firstly, as I have said before, the NCR in the Mojave has been in a continuous struggle with the numerous raider gangs of the Mojave. NCR soldiers have been injured or even murdered by raiders, and necessary military shipments containing food rations, weapons, ammunition, and medicine, have either been intercepted or destroyed by raiders. And while the raiders are a terrible detriment to the NCR, the NCR lacks the soldiers and firepower to eliminate these raider gangs. Secondly, their lack of human resources, including doctors and engineers has clearly made an impact on them. For example, in Helios One, you find the idiot with sunglasses, Fantastic, the head engineer of the power plant tasked with turning it on. This clearly inexperienced and imprudent man was hired because the NCR did not have an engineer of their own able to turn it on, vividly exposing their lack of human resources in the Mojave. Because of these two reasons, the NCR is no less than weak and is incapable of fighting against, not only rag-tag raider gangs, but the Great Khans, Mr. House, and the Legion.

While my opponent has argued that the NCR is a mighty, defatiguable force that could easily win the battle for Hoover Dam and annihilate the Legion with their "top-notch" weapons and other resources, the NCR presence in the Mojave is only a fragile, decrepit shell of what many envision the NCR to be. They not only lack morale, but also numbers, weapons, medicine and food and water to sustain themselves. They not only have to deal with their internal decay and local raider gangs, but greater foes such as the Great Khans, Mr. House, and especially the Legion. The Legion, on the other hand, is a mighty army with vast numbers, Every legionaire is proud to be in the Legion, chanting "Ave! True to Caesar!" towards every wasteland traveler nearby. With their large slave workforce, the Legion has also managed to be self-sufficient, able to produce food, weapons, medicine (specifically healing powder), and clothing. And, having trained in the military from a very young age of around 8-10, the Legionaries have not only the physical aptitude, but military knowledge, coordination, and teamwork to devastate, if not defeat, their enemies. In conclusion, the Legion, without the Courier's intervention, would topple the NCR in the battle of Hoover Dam and gain control over the Mojave.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by CosmoJarvis 6 months ago
CosmoJarvis
Ave, true to Caesar!
Posted by CosmoJarvis 6 months ago
CosmoJarvis
#Leader of the Fallout New Vegas Fanclub :)
No votes have been placed for this debate.