The Instigator
Ahijah
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ReformedArsenal
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

NT worship.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/10/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,424 times Debate No: 16386
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (99)
Votes (4)

 

Ahijah

Pro

I do not believe the NT follows OT Law. If you do your welcome to challenge me to debate. Come on don't be scared. Your vote on my other debate shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. I would like a chance to set the record straight. And defended the NT Gospel of Jesus Christ.
ReformedArsenal

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate. I would also like to establish some parameters for this debate.

For the sake of this debate Pro has the burden of proof. As such, in order to secure victory in this debate Pro must show beyond a reasonable doubt that the New Testament (27 books recognized by all orthodox Christian branches) does not follw the Old Testament Law (66 books recognized by all orthodox Christian branches).

Since Pro has the burden of proof, I will allow him to open the argument in round 2. In my half of round 2 I will present my rebuttal to his argument as well as any affirmative argument that I see necessary. In round 3 Pro will have a chance to defend his argument, further or redirect his argument, or rebuttal any affirmative argument I put forward. In my half of round 3 I shall rebuttal his arguments and defend any affirmative arguments I have put forward. I will refrain from furthering my arguments beyond defense or redirecting, since Pro will not have a chance to respond prior to vote.

I look forward to the opening of Pro's argument.
Debate Round No. 1
Ahijah

Pro

I want to start by saying, I am honored to have an opportunity to have this discussion with my opponent. And have the facts of the matter lain before an intelligent audience. Also, I want my opponent to be assured that I will be as humble as possible in the deliverance of the truth on the subject matter. On the other hand, I want him to know I will give no quarter and expect none in return. Hebrews 4:12, says,
"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." And I don't give any apogees for the truth. If its to hot, get out of the kitchen. Were not here playing mumble peg, this is a discussion about the truth in the Word of God. Men through history have given their life in the defense of this Book (THE BIBLE) and as for me I do consider it to be a matter of eternal consequence.
(1)Why did our Savor, Jesus Christ die on the cross at Calvary?
Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."
(2)The Law of Jesus Christ is ordained in the NT. Christ is our High Priest.
Hebrews 9:11 says, "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."
(3)If the OT law could save us, (listen and answer this question) Why did Jesus die on the cross? The above passage says He, Jesus: "entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." The blood of goats and calves of the OT could not save anyone. The Blood of Jesus Christ saves everyone in the OT and His Blood saves us in the NT. Faith in Jesus Christ and His shedding of His Blood has saved every sole throughout all history. Not one of the Ten Commandments could save man. Not every sacrifice ever made of calves and goats. Could save man. If these ceremonies and commandments could save, again Jesus Christ died for nothing! If we could have lived and keep the Ten Commandments there would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ.
(4)Please READ this!!! Hebrews 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
 when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
 on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
 and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
 after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
 and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
 and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
 and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
 from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
When did this New Covenant start? When Jesus took the place of the Ten Commandments and the Old Law. When He died on Calvarys Cross for our sins. Now we have no need for the Old Law or the animal sacrifices. If we insist on living by the Old Law. We will die by the Old Law. Do you realize the penalty for breaking one of the Ten Commandments was DEATH! Thank God we live under the Grace and Mercy of Jesus Christ! Not under the Ten Commandments and the Old Law.
Jesus Christ said: Matt. 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
But alas!!! Jesus said that everything was going to be fulfilled in His death on the cross. Matt 26:54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?" 55At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left him and fled.
So, Jesus Christ death on the cross and after His resurrection we live under the NT not the OT. Notice the following. Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.[h] 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Jesus death on the cross abolished the Old Law and established the New Testament law.
I look forward to my opponents reply, thanks for your attention.
ReformedArsenal

Con

I again thank my opponent for posting such a debate. It is always nice to engage a fellow Brother in Christ in discourse, since as Proverbs 27:17 says, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

I would like to summarize my opponent's argument. For clarity sake, I shall preserve the numbering that my opponent utilizes.

1) Jesus died for our sins, to make propitiation for our sin.
2) Christ's law was initiated upon his death and resurrection, and he has replaced the OT law with his law.
3) The sacrificial system in the OT is insufficient, and Christ's blood serves as the saving sacrifice.
4) God has initiated a new Covenant with Israel and the Church.
Therefore, the old Law (covenant) is null and void at the advent of Christ and his sacrifice.

While this argument is quite logical, it is a mischaracterization of the Gospel.

Consider the following.

Galatians 3:15 - To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.

The argument Paul continues to argue is that the covenant made with Abraham is still in order. The promise that we will be justified by faith, is still in order. Paul later argues that the Law did not replace this promise. He writes:

"This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise."

So what is the purpose of the Law, one must ask. Paul explains in another passage:

"For by works of the law no human being1 will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20)

Paul is arguing that the original purpose of the Law, when it was ADDED to the Covenant with Abraham, is to make us aware of sin. It acts as a measuring stick, to which none of us compare. It is in this context which Paul says "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

It was to THIS concept that we were taken captive under the law. We are captive to the fact that we do not measure up. However, when Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, we are no longer captive to that inadequacy. Not because we are not bound by the regulations of the Law... rather, through Christ we may fulfill our part of the Law.

Let me post this question to my opponent... We are condemned because of sin, this is established by your quotation of Romans 3:23. Christ saves us from the law... by fulfilling the law. If the law is no longer valid or required... then why does Christ need to die in order to fulfill the requirements of the law?

I submit to the voters that rather than this convoluted and confused understanding, we simply see that Christ has made a way for us to fulfill the law. Through both his passive and active obedience, imputed to us, he has fulfilled the law. So to say that the early Church or any Church denied the law, is to deny the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, which was to fulfill the law... not to abolish it.

Thank you for reading, I look forward to the next round.

Until Christ came. We see the culmination of this argument later in the passage.
Debate Round No. 2
Ahijah

Pro

I want to start again by saying; it is an honor to be in this discussion with my opponent. I also want to thank the readers of this debate, for the time they have invested reading this worthy subject. My opponent quoted the Bible, saying; "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." I like this quote. I hope we both leave this debate with a greater understanding of the truth in the Bible. And I also hope what is said here will result in the readers being blessed in their Bible studies.

I will begin with a answer to my opponents' argument. That we as Christians are obligated to Keep the Old Testament Law of Moses that includes the Ten Commandments.
Romans 3
10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good,not even one."

20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Roman 7
4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." 12But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. They were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…that brought you up out of Egypt. Who did God bring up out of Egypt? The Jews! Who did Moses give the Ten Commandment to? The Jews!
The 10 Commandments - Christ's Summation in the New Testament
About 1,400 years later, the 10 Commandments were summed up in the New Testament at Matthew 22, when Jesus was confronted by the religious "experts" of the day:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).
A reflective reading of Christ's teaching reveals that the first four commandments given to the children of Israel are contained in the statement: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." It continues that the last six commandments are enclosed in the statement: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

When the Jews came out of Egyptian captivity. They were given The Law (Ten Commandments) No other people have ever been obligated to keep these laws. The gentiles were not God's chosen people, only the Jews were. When Jesus said to the rich ruler "Keep the Commandments" we must understand that this man was a Jewish Ruler, obligated to the Law's of Moses. And Christ had not given Himself as the perfect sacrifice. Only after the death of Christ is the Law nailed to the cross. I don't want my opponent trying to say Jesus said keep the Commandments. I know Jesus told the Jews to keep all of the Old Law. He also told them to offer up animal sacrifices.
Mark 1:44 and saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing the things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

So I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we as Christians do not Keep the Law of Moses. We live under the Grace of Christ. I will rest my case and offer the Bible as my final proof. Please read the book of Romans and Galatians. I want to end by saying thanks to my opponent he has been very cordial in this debate. I also want to thank the readers and my friend Dan that has an outstanding, understanding of the Bible. God bless everyone!
ReformedArsenal

Con

My opponent states that I have argued that we are obligated to keep the Old Testament Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments. However, I have not argued that. No where have I argued that Christians are obligated to observe the 10 commandments, the 613 Laws of the Pentateuch, nor the added Laws to which Jesus and Paul are responding to in the NT.

What I have argued is that the Law is what condemns us. The Law is what makes it necessary for us to have a savior. It was by keeping the Law that Christ was able to purchase our salvation, to serve as our penal substitute, and to make satisfaction to God. If not for the Law, Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary.

Must we keep the Law in order to be saved? No... we now obey the Law (as much as we can) out of gratitude to our Savior, out of love for the Law Giver, and out of obedience to the faith we profess. However, that does not mean that the Law does not impact us... that does not mean that the Law is non-existent, nor that it doesn't not stand to condemn us apart from the work of Jesus. Rather, we stand justified BY the Law, as Christ was justified by his keeping of the Law and his justification is imputed to us.
Debate Round No. 3
99 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
Posted by wasthatatrident 1 minute ago
No, I was thinking maybe you wanted Sarah Palin to have the nuclear codes.

I wouldn't care if you had them :o
Posted by wasthatatrident 5 years ago
wasthatatrident
No, I was thinking maybe you wanted Sarah Palin to have the nuclear codes.
Posted by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
Posted by wasthatatrident 34 minutes ago
Ahijah, are you a birther?

If you are asking if I believe in a new birth. Yes, I believe the Bible. Do you believe the Bible?
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
No,

He's pointing out that you sound like the radically conservative conspiracy mongers known as birthers.
Posted by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
Posted by wasthatatrident 28 minutes ago
Ahijah, are you a birther?

Lol, I post Bible verses and you call me bitter. Seems to me the truth hurt you, sorry you were hurt :(
Posted by wasthatatrident 5 years ago
wasthatatrident
Ahijah, are you a birther?
Posted by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
Lev 10:1-2

Moses: "God told priests to get fire for sacrifices from alter"

Nadab and Abihu: "God never said we couldn't get fire for sacrifice somewhere else. They were wrong!

Heb. 11:4

Able: "God said an Animal sacrifice"

Cain: "God never said not to use the fruit of the ground" He was wrong!

John 4:20

Jews: "God said Jerusalem was holy"

Samaritans: "God never said this mountain was not holy" They were wrong!

Mark 7:4

Washing of sacrifices was commanded

Pharisees: "God never said not to require washing of cups" They were wrong!

Acts 15:1,5

Christians: "God said Baptism was essential to salvation" Acts 2:38

Judaizers: "God never said Circumcision was no longer required." They were wrong!

Eph. 5:19

Christians: "God said to Sing"

Denominationalists: "God never said we couldn't play an instrument in worship" They are wrong!

Phil. 4:16

Christians: "God said to send money from a church directly to a preacher"

Institutionalists: "God never said one church could not send money to another in evangelism and set up a sponsoring church" They are wrong!

1 Cor. 16:1-2

Christians: "God said to make free will offerings every Sunday

Liberals: "God never said the church couldn't raise money from bake sales, tithing or bingo's!" They are wrong!

So you see when we do things without permission we are wrong! This includes playing mechanical instruments of music!
Posted by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
And I was just getting warmed up :(
Posted by MrCarroll 5 years ago
MrCarroll
And we will end on that note.
Posted by Ahijah 5 years ago
Ahijah
come on back if you need another Bible lesson.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by MontyKarl91 5 years ago
MontyKarl91
AhijahReformedArsenalTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: The only word that can be said for this is total domination. Pro refuses to show any class in his debates and he will continue to lose until he does so. I find his behavior insulting of Christians everywhere.
Vote Placed by MrCarroll 5 years ago
MrCarroll
AhijahReformedArsenalTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Not much to say...
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
AhijahReformedArsenalTied
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Reasons for voting decision: "So to say that the early Church or any Church denied the law, is to deny the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, which was to fulfill the law... not to abolish it." - well put, and first time I voted conduct for conduct in a long time, Pro - really, show a little class.
Vote Placed by XimenBao 5 years ago
XimenBao
AhijahReformedArsenalTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct against Pro for a classless callout up front, and if I voted on comments Pro would have lost it there as well. Spelling and grammar to the debater who used paragraphs. Arguments to Con. Pro never seemed to understand Con's argument enough to argue against it, which is weird because Christ saving humanity from judgment under God's law is pretty basic Sunday school stuff. Pro would be well served to ease off on the verse spam in the future and focus on organizing his arguments.