The Instigator
Defro
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
Romanii
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

Naruto Uzumaki can beat Monkey D. Luffy in a fight, if not equally match him

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Defro
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2014 Category: TV
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 21,957 times Debate No: 45499
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (61)
Votes (3)

 

Defro

Pro

You couldn't poperly have this debate because your contender's account was deactivated. I wish to take his place and debate this topic with you, because I am very passionate with both shows, although I like One Piece more than Naruto.
_______________________________________________________________

I am assuming my contender is referring to the new and improved Luffy that just came back into the pirate world after 2 years of training.

Therefore, I will also be referring to the new and improved Naruto that just came back into the ninja world after 2 years of training.
________________________________________________________________

Rules

*My contender is not allowed to equip Luffy with any kind of power boost that Luffy couldn't already do himself (ie. equipping Luffy with a weapon, giving him another devil fruit). My contender is only allowed to do with Luffy what Luffy would do to himself in normal circumstances, including but not limited to:

-Second Gear
-Third Gear
-Haki
-Luffy's fruit power
-etc


*These rules also apply to Naruto, however he is allowed to use kunai knives/shurikens because he is almost always equipped with them in a fight and he actually uses them in fights. I will be using every technique Naruto has learned and/or used in battle, including but not limited to:

-Chakra and kunai
-Sage Mode
-Summoning Jutsu
-Tailed Beast form (with or without skeleton)
-etc


*Both are not allowed to have help from corporeal beings, with the exception of Naruto's summoned toads.
For example:
-Medical treatment from Chopper
-Medical treatment from Sakura
________________________________________________________________
First round is not for acceptance, feel free to state your points.

Let's have fun!



Romanii

Con

Excellent!
I'm very glad that Pro has actually watched and loves both shows!
That was a trait missing in all of my previous opponents, so this looks like it's going to be a great debate! :D

First of all, let's decide on a good setting for the battle to happen, since that has often played an integral role in the battles of both shows. I propose that it would be on a random grassland with no interruptions at all.

So obviously, the most accurate way to decide who would win is a simulation, but that simply isn't possible in an online debate, so we must go with the next best thing: an analysis of their relative strengths and weaknesses.

I'm going to compare their levels of brute strength, intelligence, speed, reflexes, durability, and special advantages.
I consider all of these things to be equally important during combat.


1) Brute Strength

Luffy's newest attacks are REALLY, REALLY strong. His Elephant Pistol took out a Kraken which is roughly the size of Nine Tails, and his Elephant Gatling destroyed a ship the size of an island. Naruto is capable of doing similar feats in Sage Mode, but remember that Elephant Pistol and Elephant Gatling are just Gear Third + Armament Haki. I'm sure that combined with Gear Second, those moves would easily outmatch Naruto in terms of brute strength.

(Luffy 1, Naruto 0)




2) Intelligence

Luffy is a combat genius capable of coming up with creative new moves and techniques in the middle of an intense battle. However, I will admit that Naruto is much more capable of coming up with brilliant battle plans, whereas Luffy almost always blindly charges into battle. However, keep in mind that almost all of Luffy's opponents have been much smarter than him (e.g. Kuro, Crocodile, Lucci), so it isn't too big of a disadvantage.

(Luffy 1, Naruto 1)




3) Speed

When Luffy is in Gear Second, he is able to move so fast that he almost seems to be invisible. However, Naruto is just as fast in Kyuubi Mode, even keeping up with the fastest person in the Shinobi World (4th Raikage). This would make Naruto the fastest character in his own series, whereas Luffy's speed isn't really anything special compared to other characters in his series. Therefore, it is only logical to say that Naruto is at least slightly faster than Luffy.

(Luffy 1, Naruto 2)




4) Reflexes

Luffy has Observation Haki and is capable of dodging almost all long range attacks, such as super-fast Pacifista beams and bullets shot at point blank range. This would imply that Luffy could easily dodge Naruto's Rasengan, which happens to be Naruto's favorite attack to use in battle. Naruto has shown no sign of above average reflexes throughout the show.

(Luffy 2, Naruto 2)




5) Durability

Both Luffy and Naruto have been shown to do amazing things when pushed to the limits of their strength. Neither of them has ever given up in battle due to fatigue. This shows that both of them have extraordinary willpower of about the same level.
However, in addition to that, Luffy has Armament Haki which serves as an extremely durable armor for pretty much his entire body. He has been shown to break steel with his head when coated with Haki. Luffy is probably a bit more durable than Naruto.

(Luffy 3, Naruto 2)




6) Special Advantages over Specific Opponent

Luffy has a weakness to water, but Naruto is not a water chakra-type, so he can't really exploit that weakness in Luffy. Naruto can also use the Shadow Clone Jutsu to make exact copies of himself that can be used in battle. However, it is a known fact that the more clones he makes, the less strong each of them are. I believe Luffy could easily counter this attack because 1) numbers have never fazed Luffy, as shown during the Ennies Lobby Arc, and 2) Luffy's Haki would allow him to detect which one is the real Naruto (he did something similar to Mr. 3 during the Little Garden Arc).
Also, Luffy is invincible to lightning type attacks due to his rubber body, but Naruto isn't a lightning chakra-type, so that doesn't really matter.
All things considered, neither character has a "special" advantage over the other.

(Luffy 3, Naruto 2)


So, according to the general analysis of their strengths and weaknesses, Luffy has a slight edge over Naruto and would probably win a battle between the two of them.

Good luck with your argument! :D

Debate Round No. 1
Defro

Pro

Concerning the setting for the battle

-Like you said, this is not a simulation we are running, therefore we must analyze everything, setting included, as it pays a major role in every fight. Please consider the title of the debate. It says Naruto "can" beat Luffy, therefore it is implied that in an array of likely situations, Naruto will beat Luffy in at least one of them.

-Therefore, I conclude by saying that the setting can be anywhere that they are likely to meet. This way, we can analayze each fighter's outcome in different settings.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Rebuttals

"Luffy's newest attacks are REALLY, REALLY strong."

-Naruto is even stronger, if not equally strong. Con has mentioned Sage Mode. So I will mention the Nine-Tails Chakra mode. In this form, Naruto is Stronger than when in his Sage Mode. From what the link below says about his strength, he would also easily be able to take out the Kraken mentioned by Con.

-Another thing about his form: he can also perform Chakra Arms, which means he has multiple arms extruding from his back that can stretch like luffy's arms. Each of these arms are extremely strong and the fact that there are so many of them certainly gives Naruto an advantage over Luffy.


http://naruto.wikia.com...


"I'm sure that combined with Gear Second, those moves would easily outmatch Naruto in terms of brute strength."

-Con is making assumptions. Luffy has never combined his Gear 3rd with his Gear 2nd, and I think it is physiologically impossible even/especially for a rubber man like Luffy. Luffy's Gear 2nd involves him using up oxygen at an incredibly fast rate. Luffy's Gear 3rd involves him keeping a large amount of air (oxygen) in his limbs. The two are essentially opposites. Luffy can't keep oxygen in his limbs if he's going to use it up. Therefore, if he blows up his arm and then starts using Gear 2nd, his arm would deflate, making it simply Gear 2nd

http://onepiece.wikia.com...
http://onepiece.wikia.com...;


"Luffy has Armament Haki which serves as an extremely durable armor for pretty much his entire body."

-Naruto also has a form of armor/protection. In his first Jinchuriki Form version, he is surrounded by a cloak of red chakra that provides a certain level of physical protection. In the second version, the cloak thickens and protects him even more. In the final Tailed Beast Mode, there's even a exo-skeleton surrounding him.
-This protects him even more than Luffy's Haki. In the show, whilst being in his Tailed Beast Mode, he destroyed huge chunks of Earth, mountains and forests. After he recovered into his human form, he was not only undamaged, but his wounds had healed. This shows that Naruto's armor is even stronger than Luffy's and even heals Naruto.
-Furthermore, the Nine-Tails Chakra mode mentioned earlier by me also cloaks him with chakra that provides physical protection.

http://naruto.wikia.com...;


"Luffy has a weakness to water, but Naruto is not a water chakra-type"

-First of all, Luffy's weakness is sea water, not your everyday bottle of water. Just clarifying.

-It has been established by me in this round that the setting can be anywhere that they are likely to be in. Luffy is a pirate who spends a lot of his time on a ship in the middle of the sea. Therefore, it is plausible to say that a possible setting could be on a pirate ship. Because both of their powers are extremely destructive, it is likely that the ship will be destroyed.

-In the situation that the ship is destroyed, Luffy will drown in the sea. However, Naruto is able to stand on the surface of the water. This obviously means Naruto wins the fight.
Episode 53
http://naruto.wikia.com...


"Luffy's Haki would allow him to detect which one is the real Naruto (he did something similar to Mr. 3 during the Little Garden Arc)."

-First of all, he could sense Mr. 3 out because all of Mr. 3's clones are made a wax, and therefore has no Haki.

-
According to the site provided, Haki is in all living things.

-However, all of Naruto's clones would have Haki in them because they are all alive and moving, therefore they would all have Haki and Luffy would have a hard time detecting the real Naruto.

http://onepiece.wikia.com...
_____________________________________________________________________________________

So far, I have established that:

-Naruto is just as strong as Luffy.
-Luffy cannot combine gear 2nd with gear 3rd.
-Naruto has an advantage because of his multiple arms that can stretch like Luffy's.
-Naruto's armor is stronger if not equal to Luffy's armor.
-Luffy can drown while Naruto can walk on water.
-Naruto can in fact confuse Luffy with his clones.
_____________________________________________________________________________

*Over to Con, who must either refute what I've established, or present new points as to why Naruto cannot win.
Romanii

Con


BRUTE STRENGTH

" I will mention the Nine-Tails Chakra mode. In this form, Naruto is Stronger than when in his Sage Mode. From what the link below says about his strength, he would also easily be able to take out the Kraken mentioned by Con. "

However, Naruto's strength in Kyuubi Mode doesn't come from physical strength; it comes from upgraded long range attacks (like Rasengan). I am sure Naruto could take out the Kraken just as easily as Luffy, but not through sheer muscle power, as that is not Naruto's style. Luffy undoubtedly possesses more brute, physical strength than Naruto, and is thus would be better at hand to hand combat.

"Another thing about [Naruto's] form: he can also perform Chakra Arms, which means he has multiple arms extruding from his back that can stretch like luffy's arms."

Luffy's Elephant Gatling can easily counter such an attack, as his arms are going so fast, that there appear to be several of them. You can see this in video #1 (mute it to avoid Luffy's odd battle cry, and don't ask why he's attacking a ship...).

"Luffy has never combined his Gear 3rd with his Gear 2nd, and I think it is physiologically impossible even/especially for a rubber man like Luffy"

That is false. He did exactly that in his fight with Gekko Moriah (see video #2, a bit past the 5:00 mark)




DURABILITY

"In [Naruto's] first Jinchuriki Form version, he is surrounded by a cloak of red chakra that provides a certain level of physical protection. In the second version, the cloak thickens and protects him even more. In the final Tailed Beast Mode, there's even a exo-skeleton surrounding him."

In video #3, a bit past the 2:00 mark, we see that Luffy, with just a plain old Gomu Gomu no Pistol, knocks out a beast of similar size to the Nine Tails. Combine that with Haki, Gear 2nd, and Gear 3rd, and Luffy could do the same to Nine Tails.

Naruto cannot break Luffy's Armor Haki because, not only is Luffy capable of dodging even while armored, but the Naruto possesses no physical attack that can break such a tough armor.




SPECIAL ADVANTAGES

"In the situation that the ship is destroyed, Luffy will drown in the sea. However, Naruto is able to stand on the surface of the water. This obviously means Naruto wins the fight."

That is correct, but another very possible setting is in the Leaf Village, in which case there is no threat of water, and Naruto's weakness (Fire) can be used by Luffy through Gomu Gomu no Red Hawk (see video #4, 1:00 mark).

Whereas Naruto's weakness can be exploited anywhere, Luffy's weakness can be exploited in only some settings.

"Naruto's clones would have Haki in them because they are all alive and moving, therefore they would all have Haki and Luffy would have a hard time detecting the real Naruto"

I suppose so. Good rebuttal!
However, clones DO get weaker the more there are, and Luffy has a variety of extremely effective moves for taking out high numbers of weaker opponents, including Conqueror's Haki (see video #5) or attacks as basic as Gomu Gomu no Storm.




CONCLUSION-REBUTTALS

"-Naruto is just as strong as Luffy"

Not in terms of brute strength. Naruto simply doesn't have that muscle power

"-Luffy cannot combine gear 2nd with gear 3rd."

Yes he can.

"-Naruto has an advantage because of his multiple arms that can stretch like Luffy's"

Luffy has giant arms that are so fast that they appear as several arms, thus equaling if not surpassing Naruto's chakra arms

"-Naruto's armor is stronger if not equal to Luffy's armor."

Luffy can take out Nine Tails just like every other gigantic beast he's faced.

"-Luffy can drown while Naruto can walk on water."

Luffy can burn Naruto in any setting, whereas Naruto can only drown Luffy in some settings

"-Naruto can in fact confuse Luffy with his clones."

Luffy can take out all of them quite easily through his standard one vs. many moves.



And with that, I hand the debate over to Pro.

Good luck!

SOURCES = videos





Debate Round No. 2
Defro

Pro




_______________________________________________________________________________________

Brute Strength

"Naruto's strength in Kyuubi Mode doesn't come from physical strength; it comes from upgraded long range attacks (like Rasengan)."

-True, his strength in Kyuubi Mode doesn't come from physical strength, but from the energy of the Kyuubi. However, this energy can be converted into kinetic energy (physical strength). What I am trying to say is that when he is in his Kyuubi Mode, his brute strength is increased, although not as much as when he is in Sage Mode. Which brings me into my next point.

-Naruto's Sage Mode gives Naruto just as much brute strength as Luffy has, and this has been conceded by Con in Round 1. Con has mentioned that if Luffy combines his Gear 2nd with Gear 3rd and Haki, his strength would be overwhelmingly stronger than Naruto, and I wll explain why that is not so next by bringing up his Beast form and explaining the mechanics of Gear 3rd.


"Elephant Pistol and Elephant Gatling are just Gear Third + Armament Haki. I'm sure that combined with Gear Second, those moves would easily outmatch Naruto in terms of brute strength."

-Keep in mind that Luffy's use of Gear 3rd is very limited. Before the time skip, after using Gear 3rd, Luffy would shrink down to the size of a doll and be weak and vulnerable for 5 minutes. Although he appears to have solved this problem after 2 years, I'm sure there are still limitations to his Gear 3rd and he cannot use it indefinately. The same goes for his Gear 2nd.


"I am sure Naruto could take out the Kraken just as easily as Luffy, but not through sheer muscle power"

-If Naruto was in his Tailed Beast Mode with the exoskeleton, his physical strength I'm sure would match Luffy's. It is undeniable that his Beast form carries much more brute strength, and this is partially shown in the very first video. Although most of the video, the Beast shoots destructive blasts out of it's mouth or uses telepathy, there are instances where you can see how physically strong he is, able to lift huge chunks of earth. I remember one part (though I'm not sure whether or not it is in the video) where the beast straight up ran through a mountain, destroying it completely. Luffy must rely on using Gear 3rd to destroy a mountain, while the Beast runs through it as if it were nothing. Therefore, the Beast is stronger if not equal to Luffy in brute strength.


*Conclusion: Naruto is just as strong as Luffy when Naruto is in his Sage Mode, this has been conceded by Con. However, Luffy is stronger than Sage Mode when Luffy uses his Gears and Haki. But Naruto can match that level of brute strength when in his Beast mode. Therefore, Naruto can be just as strong as Luffy.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Durability

"Gomu no Pistol, knocks out a beast of similar size to the Nine Tails. Combine that with Haki, Gear 2nd, and Gear 3rd, and Luffy could do the same to Nine Tails."

-It is impossible to "knock out" the Nine Tails. This is because the Nine Tails is so full of rage and determination. It can never faint, no matter how hard it is hit/hurt. The only way to defeat the Nine Tails is to kill it or capture it. You can never "knock it out" because it is an immortal being who's always constantly concious. Not once in the show or manga has the Kyuubi been shown to even sleep.

-However, Con is right in that Luffy's attacks will definately hurt the Nine Tails. But Con fails to realize that the Nine Tails itself is Naruto's armor. Punching the Nine Tails does not mean hurt Naruto, who is burried deep within the Nine Tail's body in a place that Luffy cannot reach because the Nine Tails regenrates/heals itself (and Naruto inside it).


"Naruto possesses no physical attack that can break such a tough armor."

-Luffy's armor, while invulnerable to blunt attacks up to a certain degree of brute force, is not invulnerable to sharp objects/weapons. This is shown when Luffy hardened his body, but was still hurt when his opponent bit him. I will provide a screenshot of where I found this (inside the red box) along with the link. This means, that Luffy is vulnerable to anything that cuts, which includes but is not limited to Naruto's kunai knives and his rasen shuriken.

http://onepiece.wikia.com...

*Conclusion:
Naruto's armor is better than Luffy's, if not equally strong. Naruto's armor is the Nine Tails itself and no matter how hard Luffy hurts the Nine Tails, Naruto, who is deep inside the large beast's body, will not be hurt. In fact, once he transformed back into his normal human form, his previous wounds were healed, which is something Luffy's armor can't do. This is shown in the third video, which is one and a half hours long so I will summarize the points: Naruto was staked to the ground with several swords peirced through his body (25:00), like Jesus. Then he transforms into his beast mode (35:00). And after transforming back, his wounds are gone and he was fully refreshed and able to retain Sage Mode (50:30).

*In Addition: Naruto's Nine Tails armor burns whoever touches it. So in fact, Luffy cannot touch Naruto.
________________________________________________________

Special Advantages

"Naruto's weakness (Fire) can be used by Luffy through Gomu Gomu no Red Hawk"

-Fire is not Naruto's weakness. Naruto is just as vulnerable to fire as any other human would be, including Luffy. The element that Naruto manipulates (wind) is just at a disadvantage when going against fire.

-Luffy cannot manipulate fire. Flames simply appear on his arm because of the heat his Gear 2nd is generating. Therefore, it would be hard for him to use this against Naruto, because as conceded by Con, Naruto is faster, therefore able to dodge Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Red Hawk.

-It takes time to prepare. According to the video Con has provided and to my knowledge of the show, Luffy takes time to prepare his Gomu Gomu no Red Hawk. This just makes it easier for Naruto to avoid.

-It has limitations. As mentioned above, Luffy's capacity of using Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd is limited, therefore, he can't use Red Hawk indefinately.

-Luffy is also vulnerable to fire. The only reason why Luffy is not burnt in the video is because he put up his Haki armor on his arm. As established above, Naruto's armor is also pretty impressive. The Nine Tails armor would most probably render Naruto invulnerable to fire to some degree.


"in the Leaf Village, in which case there is no threat of water"

-There are lakes in the Village.


"Naruto's weakness can be exploited anywhere, Luffy's weakness can be exploited in only some settings."

-As established previously, fire is not Naruto's weakness. But yes, it does harm Naruto. However, as established above, Naruto can easily avoid Luffy's fire attack because it takes time to prepare and Naruto is already faster than Luffy. The only places where this would affect Naruto is in a forest or place where the setting is flammable. However, Luffy, would also be affected by fighting in a forest fire, unless he has his armor, but Naruto also has armor that is fire-resistance.

-Note that 9.4% of the world's surface are forests and 71% of the world's surface are oceans/seas. Therefore it is more likely that the setting would favor Naruto.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.universetoday.com...

*Conclusion: Luffy has no "special" advantage over Naruto that would not hurt Luffy himself.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Conclusion Counter-Rebuttals

"Naruto simply doesn't have that muscle power"

-In his Beast form he does.


"Luffy can take out Nine Tails"

-No he can't. The Nine Tails is immortal and can never lose consiousness.


"Luffy can burn Naruto in any setting, whereas Naruto can only drown Luffy in some settings"

-Luffy can't burn Naruto if Naruto has his armor on. Even if it's off, Naruto is fast enough to dodge every Red Hawk punch Luffy does because it takes time to prepare. The only setting that would make fire a threat to Naruto would be a flammable place like a forest, in which case it would be a threat to Luffy as well. But both of them would have their armor up so they'd be unaffected by fire.

-Forests make up 9.4% of the world's surface, Oceans/Seas make up 71%, so it is more likely that they will be in a setting in which Luffy will drown.


"Luffy can take out all of them quite easily through his standard one vs. many moves."

-This doesn't change the fact that Luffy would be confused by them, getting a disadvantage. The whole point of Naruto making tons of clones is so that his opponent would be confused and destroy all of them, in doing so, wasting energy.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I have established that:

-Naruto can be just as strong as Luffy.

-Naruto is more durable than Luffy because his armor heals Naruto and would burn Luffy if Luffy touched him. Luffy's armor is vulnerable to sharp weapons/objects, which Naruto has plenty of. Luffy's armor cannot heal Luffy.

-Luffy has no special advantage over Naruto, but Naruto has special advantages over Luffy.


I would like to add that:

-In Beast mode, Naruto has telepathy, which can be used against Luffy.


Conclusion:

-It is certainly possible for Naruto to beat Luffy in a fight.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Back to Pro.

sources = VIDEO and 3 sites
Romanii

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for his rebuttals; they are very well thought-out, and I'm glad to finally be having a challenging debate on this subject :)


THE NINE-TAILS PROBLEM

Throughout his argument, my opponent consistently refers to the strength of the Nine Tailed Fox:

"the Nine Tails itself is Naruto's armor. Punching the Nine Tails does not mean hurt Naruto, who is burried deep within the Nine Tail's body in a place that Luffy cannot reach because the Nine Tails regenrates/heals itself.. You can never "knock it out" because it is an immortal being who's always constantly concious."

However, you may notice that this is A LOT like the Logia Devil Fruit users in One Piece. Logia users are also invincible to Physical attacks (Video 1, 0:30), can regenerate severe injuries (Video 2), and form strong armor-like fortresses around themselves (Video 3, first 5 seconds)

Now this is the point where we must use logic to make the fighting mechanisms of the two shows compatible.
If the Nine Tails is just like a Logia user in terms of strength and ability, then it is logical to conclude that it also has similar weaknesses.
A Logia user can only be hit by 1) their elemental weaknesses or 2) Haki coated attacks.
Thus far, the Nine Tails has not been shown to have any elemental weaknesses.
However, if we analyze the fighting mechanisms of both shows, I believe it is logical to conclude that Haki would work effectively on the Nine Tailed Fox.

Luffy has extremely strong Haki, so, if this is true, which I believe has been logically proven to be such, all it would really take is a few well-aimed Jet Elephant Gatlings to totally decimate Naruto's Nine Tails armor, leaving Naruto to use his own powers (e.g. Rasengan, Shadow Clones, Sage Mode, Kyuubi Mode)



BRUTE STRENGTH

"I'm sure there are still limitations to his Gear 3rd and he cannot use it indefinately. The same goes for his Gear 2nd."

If I may, I would like to remind my opponent that Naruto's use of Sage Mode and Kyuubi Mode are just as limited if not more limited than Luffy's use of Gear Second and Gear Third, so this point isn't really valid.

Also, even without his Gears, Luffy's pure physical strength is comparable to that of Naruto's while in Sage Mode (please refer back to video 3 of round 2), so WITH his gears, he could surely outmatch Naruto in terms of physical attack force.

"If Naruto was in his Tailed Beast Mode with the exoskeleton, his physical strength I'm sure would match Luffy's. It is undeniable that his Beast form carries much more brute strength"

Possibly, but like I've shown, Haki would allow Luffy to defeat Naruto's Nine Tails Armor with a few well-placed, powerful blows.



ARMOR

"Luffy's armor, while invulnerable to blunt attacks up to a certain degree of brute force, is not invulnerable to sharp objects/weapons... This means, that Luffy is vulnerable to anything that cuts, which includes but is not limited to Naruto's kunai knives and his rasen shuriken."

A very good point by my opponent.
However, I would like to point out that Naruto in his Nine Tails armor is not nearly as capable as dodging as Luffy is in his Haki armor. Luffy is completely mobile in his armor. Meanwhile Naruto has a hard time just controlling his.

For this reason, I think it is safe to call it equal in terms of durability for both characters.



SPECIAL ADVANTAGES

My opponent has done an excellent job of refuting my point about Naruto's weakness to fire.
Thus, my primary job here should be to prove that Luffy's weakness to sea water would play a minimal role in a battle between him and Naruto.

I will do so through examples from the show, as I can see no other way to do so.
Luffy has proven to be quite adaptable in his many battles near bodies of water.

One major example of this was his battle with Don Krieg, which was situated on two ships in the middle of the ocean. Yet despite this disadvantage, Luffy didn't fall into the water until after the battle was finished.

In addition, recently, Luffy did a battle UNDERWATER with a FISHMAN (Hody Jones). Luffy did have the help of a giant bubble, of course, but the point is, that Luffy is extremely adaptable, even when it comes to settings in which water is a primary component of the battle field.

The only time in which water has been a big problem for Luffy was in his battle with Arlong, but that was before Luffy even got his Gears or Haki, so that doesn't count for much.

"This [Shadow Clones] doesn't change the fact that Luffy would be confused by them"

HOW many times throughout the show has Luffy EVER been "confused" by his opponent's ability?
When he is serious about a fight, NOTHING gets in the way of him destroying his opponent!



CONCLUSIONS

-Luffy can defeat Naruto's Nine Tailed Fox Armor using Haki

-Luffy is EQUAL in durability to Naruto, since both have incredible will power as well as powerful methods of armament.

-Luffy's knack for adaptability really minimizes the threat of drowning in a situation where the battle field primarily consists of water

So to revisit the 6 factors of combat ability:

Brute Strength: Luffy (1)
Intelligence: Naruto (1)
Speed: ***
Reflexes: Luffy (2)
Durability: ---
Special Advantages: ---

SCORE: (Luffy 2, Naruto 1)

Conclusion: Luffy would win in a fight with Naruto.

***
Yes, I realize that I took off Naruto's speed point.
The reason is that I just noticed that I used a logically invalid argument to justify Naruto's speed advantage over Luffy; just because Naruto is the fastest character in his respective show and Luffy is not doesn't mean anything! It just means that the characters in Naruto (show) are slower than those in One Piece! :D
My opponent is free to challenge me on that :)


I look forward to next round.
Good luck to my opponent!

P.S. Many of the videos I have posted included Luffy from 2 years ago when he was still pretty weak, so don't see them as representative of Luffy's current level of strength.



Debate Round No. 3
Defro

Pro








___________________________________________________________
Rebuttals:

"If the Nine Tails is just like a Logia user in terms of strength and ability, then it is logical to conclude that it also has similar weaknesses."

-Con has conviniently taken the few similarities between the Nine Tails and Logia users to make an unlikely assumption, ignoring the many differences they have. This way of thinking is flawed. I will list two MAJOR differences.

->The Nine Tails is a seperate being. It has it's own conciousness, that frequently communicates with its host Naruto. It can think on its own and is very much a living thing. It can survive and present its powers even if it had no host. Logia has no conciousness, and is simply a tool manipulated by its user. When it has no user, it is in a form of a fruit, that cannot perform any of the powers without someone eating it. Refer to the first video in which Naruto chats with all the tailed beasts, including the Nine Tails.

->It is possible to have two Devil Fruit powers, as shown in the second video where Blackbeard steals Whitebeard's power. Furthermore, having your Devil Fruit power taken from you will not kill you. In Naruto, having two tailed beasts sealed within you is not possible and having your tailed beast taken from you will kill you.

-If Con is to make the two shows compatible, it is more logical to assume that Haki in One Piece would be analogous to the the Chakra in Naruto. However, the Tailed Beast Mode is made of Chakra, therefore made of Haki.

-If the Nine Tails is made of Haki, and the Nine Tails is Naruto's armor, than Naruto's armor is Haki, which shows that both Luffy and Naruto have the same armor, therefore equal durability, counting out the fact that Naruto's armor heals him, which would make his armor superior to Luffy's.


"I believe has been logically proven to be such, all it would really take is a few well-aimed Jet Elephant Gatlings."

-And now I have logically proven that it is more logical to assume that the Nine Tails is made of Haki. Therefore, it would not take just a few Gattlings, assuming Naruto couldn't dodge them since he is faster.


"so WITH his gears, he could surely outmatch Naruto in terms of physical attack force."

-I just realized something. Luffy's Gears do not contribute to his brute strength at all! His Gear 2nd makes his punches faster, therefore dealing more physical damage, but his pure strength is unchanged. His Gear 3rd makes his limbs bigger, therefore increasing the surface area of the impact, dealing more physical damage, but his pure strength is unchanged. For example, it would hurt you more if I threw a basketball at you than if I threw a ping pong ball at you with the exact same strength.

-Gears do not measure Luffy's physical strength. They are Luffy's battle techniques, like Naruto's Rasengan.


"Haki would allow Luffy to defeat Naruto's Nine Tails Armor with a few well-placed, powerful blows."

-Haki wouldn't allow Luffy to defeat Nine Tails if it was made of Haki.

-Con is right that a few well-placed, powerful blows will hurt Nine Tails. But how does Con expect Luffy to do so when he is not only slower than Naruto, but has to take 5 - 10 seconds to prepare his attack?

-Nevertheless, the Nine Tails cannot be defeated as established by myself in the previous round. It is not possible to knock it unconscous.The only way to defeat him is to seal him spiritually (refer to third video) or to have him submit to you (in most cases, sealing), which is the only way he ever gets defeated in the show. Luffy is incapable to do any sealing techniques. I also mentioned previously that you can kill it, but after further research I realized that the Nine Tails is immortal and therefore it is not possible to kill it. It has been alive for centuries and for centuries the only way to defeat him is to seal him. It used to be a part of the 10-Tails, which is the other form of Shinju, which is literally a Tree-God/God-Tree in the show. This means that the Nine Tails is a fragmant of a God, therefore cannot be killed. It can only be sealed, which is something Luffy can't do, therefore Luffy can't defeat Nine Tails.

http://naruto.wikia.com...;


"Luffy is completely mobile in his armor. Meanwhile Naruto has a hard time just controlling his."

-True, Naruto isn't mobile at all during this state. He is unconciously burried within the Nine Tails. However, Naruto's lack mobility is not an issue because the Fox moves for him.

-Naruto cannot control his armor at all. The Nine Tailed Fox takes over completely. While it may seem that this would put Naruto at a disadvantage, in fact it doesn't. Who would know better as to how to move in a Fox's body than the Fox himself? If you will look at the 4th video, that I also posted in the previous round, you can see that the Beast itself is very mobile and flexible, able to jump from one rock to another in midair and extend its limbs.


"Luffy is extremely adaptable, even when it comes to settings in which water is a primary component of the battle field."

-Con conceded to Luffy's adapting to water being aided by a giant bubble, which has been prohibited in the very first rule because Luffy almost never has a giant bubble in his possession, ready for use in the sea.

-Therefore, Con is making another assumption based on one or two convinient factors that support him. Con knows fully well that if not equipped with any special gadget, Luffy would definately drown in a battle field composed of water.

-Therefore, no matter how adaptable Luffy is, if the setting is underwater, there is no way he can adapt without a gadget of some sort.


"HOW many times throughout the show has Luffy EVER been "confused" by his opponent's ability?
When he is serious about a fight, NOTHING gets in the way of him destroying his opponent!"

-Excuse me, but HOW many times throughout the show has Luffy EVER encountered HUNDREDS of Naruto's Shadow Clones? You can't make assumptions like that without anything backing it up.

-I will prove right now that Luffy can get confused by Naruto's Shadow Clones, using Con's earlier example of Mr. 3. If you will look at the 5th video (1:55), you will see Luffy encountering several of Mr. 3's wax clones. Luffy was confused in this situation. It took him almost a full minute to figure out which Mr. 3 is real. And he did it by hearing sound coming from the original one. Nevertheless, he was confused by fake, silent, clones made of wax. If he were to come across Naruto's shadow clones, neither would his hearing nor his Haki sensing would help him, because all the clones make noise, and all the clones have Haki in them. If Luffy was confused for 1 minute by fake, wax clones that don't even move, he would surely also be confused by clones that move and talk.
____________________________________________________________________________

Conclusion-Rebuttals:

"Luffy can defeat Naruto's Nine Tailed Fox Armor using Haki"

-Unless he can do a sealing technique, his Haki wouldn't be as affective as Con claims it is against the Nine Tails (who's apparently made of Haki as well).


"Luffy is EQUAL in durability to Naruto, since both have incredible will power as well as powerful methods of armament."

-Naruto's armor is superior because it is an imortal fragmant of a God with it's own conciousness and heals Naruto's wounds.


"Luffy's knack for adaptability really minimizes the threat of drowning in a situation where the battle field primarily consists of water."

-Luffy cannot adapt underwater without any special gadgetry. Even if the setting was on a pirate ship in the middle of the ocean, he cannot adapt well if Naruto and Luffy destroy the ship in their fight, leaving Naruto standing on the surface of the ocean while Luffy drowns.
____________________________________________________________________________________

Addendum:

-Con conceded that Naruto is faster than Luffy, and after 2 rounds, wants to take back his concession, which I find unfair and unorthodox because I've already made several points that relied on Naruto's speed advantage over Luffy.

-However, I will prove that Naruto is faster. If you will watch the 6th video, at 0:50, you will see that the time has gone into slow motion, as a fist is about to hit Naruto's face. The moment right before the fist touched Naruto's face, Naruto dodged it, and appeared roughly 10 meters away from his attacker.

-It is notable to mention that the person who delivered that punch was the 4th Raikage, who according to the link provided below, can be as fast as lightning when he's at his fastest. In the video, he specifically said that that was his fastest punch, therefore, Naruto dodged a punch at the speed of lightning, when it was more or less a centimeter away from him.

http://naruto.wikia.com...

-This shows that Naruto can be faster than lightning (about 6,000,000 meters per second).

http://en.wikipedia.org...

-Now, to Luffy's speed. If you will see the very last video, Luffy is in his Gear 2nd form, which is his fastest form. Notice that there are no instances in which he is so fast, he dissapears and reappears like Naruto did. However, his punches leave traces of condensed air, although not as big as a real sonic boom. Therefore, it is plausible to say that Luffy's top speed is similar to the speed of sound (340 meters per second), maybe slightly a little more, but not enough to create a complete sonic boom therefore not completely breaking the sound barrier.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

-Sound is slower than Light


-Luffy is slower than Naruto


Back to Con
Romanii

Con


THE NINE TAILS PROBLEM

" the Nine Tails cannot be defeated as established by myself in the previous round. It is not possible to knock it unconscous.... Nine Tails is a fragmant of a God, therefore cannot be killed. It can only be sealed, which is something Luffy can't do, therefore Luffy can't defeat Nine Tails."

When comparing the characters of two shows, it is necessary to make their fighting mechanisms compatible.
"Sealing" doesn't even EXIST in the One Piece world, just as Haki doesn't exist in the Naruto world. We must use logic to predict the effects of these mechanisms in their non-respective worlds, for the purposes of a realistic fight.

We have decided that Nine Tails is either a Logia or made of Haki, and in either case, Luffy can defeat Nine Tails.

Pro argues against the possibility of Nine Tails being a Logia:

"The Nine Tails is a seperate being. It has it's own conciousness, that frequently communicates with its host Naruto... Logia has no conciousness, and is simply a tool manipulated by its user."

So? If a gun was alive, it would still kill people the same way: by shooting.

"It is possible to have two Devil Fruit powers... having two tailed beasts sealed within you is not possible"

Actually, Blackbeard is the only character in One Piece to have two devil fruits, through a method which has not been revealed yet in the show. It is most likely an ability unique to his particular devil fruit (yami yami no mi)

Sub-conclusion: Nine Tails CAN be a Logia.

However, Pro offers up a second suggestion for compatibility: "it is more logical to assume that Haki in One Piece would be analogous to the the Chakra in Naruto... the Tailed Beast Mode is made of Chakra, therefore made of Haki."

However, this point works against my opponent, as this would clearly make the Nine Tailed Fox a physical being that CAN be hit using haki-infused attacks! (ever heard of fighting fire with fire?)

Based on this suggestion, Pro makes makes a case for Naruto's superior durability: " Luffy and Naruto have the same armor, therefore equal durability, counting out the fact that Naruto's armor heals him, which would make his armor superior to Luffy's."

This would seem like a valid point on the surface, but here is the thing: the Nine Tails armor is a SEPARATE ENTITY from Naruto, and thus, once that separate entity has been defeated, Naruto is left with no armor. Meanwhile, Luffy's armor is ON his body, and once you break it, he can simply regenerate it.

In conclusion,
-- If Nine Tails is a Logia, Luffy's haki-infused attacks will work on it
-- If Nine Tails is made of Haki, Luffy's haki-infused attacks will STILL work on it
and...
-- Naruto's armor heals him, but it is temporary
-- Luffy's armor only protects him, but is permanent (through regeneration)

Thus, Luffy and Naruto have EQUAL levels of durability.




BRUTE STRENGTH

"Luffy's Gears do not contribute to his brute strength at all!... Gears do not measure Luffy's physical strength. They are Luffy's battle techniques, like Naruto's Rasengan."

When I say "brute strength", I'm talking about the sheer force of their physical attacks.The sole purpose of Gear Second and Gear Third is to add to that, so they do count...

And anyways, Sage Mode and Kyuubi Mode are like that, too, so if we invalidate Luffy's Gears, then that invalidates Naruto's Modes as well, leaving both characters with nothing but the power of their muscles, and we have already established that Naruto comes no where NEAR Luffy in that sense.

This argument only detracts from Pro's point. By his definition, Luffy has a HUGE advantage over Naruto in terms of brute strength. By my definition, Luffy would still win that contest, but not by such a huge margin.




SPECIAL ADVANTAGES

"Naruto cannot control his armor at all. The Nine Tailed Fox takes over completely. While it may seem that this would put Naruto at a disadvantage, in fact it doesn't. Who would know better as to how to move in a Fox's body than the Fox himself?"

It has been shown that in that mode, the Nine Tailed Fox goes on a mad rampage with no regard for who Naruto's actual target is. This has been shown repeatedly throughout the show, with the problem becoming so so bad that Naruto has to have a ninja with him during training (Yamato) JUST to make sure he doesn't turn into Nine Tails!

The Nine Tails Armor may give Naruto a huge boost in strength and defense, but the fact is, that Naruto cannot make Nine Tails do what he wants during battle, which means that by using the Nine Tails Armor, Naruto sacrifices his control over himself.

"...no matter how adaptable Luffy is, if the setting is underwater, there is no way he can adapt without a gadget of some sort."

Frankly, Pro seems a bit obsessed with the battle being underwater....

How many underwater battles have there been throughout either series? Barely any. Underwater isn't Naruto's ideal battle field either; he has absolutely no experience in such a setting. Also, Pro disregards the fact that Luffy is perfectly capable of staying out of the water. I gave the example of Luffy's battle with Don Krieg, which happened on 2 ships in the middle of the ocean, yet Luffy didn't fall into the ocean at all, and that was BEFORE all his various upgrades.

Pro overestimates the threat that water poses to Luffy.

"Excuse me, but HOW many times throughout the show has Luffy EVER encountered HUNDREDS of Naruto's Shadow Clones? You can't make assumptions like that without anything backing it up."

Luffy has easily taken out 500 Marine soldiers at Ennies Lobby, 1000 zombies at Thriller Bark, countless marine soldiers at Marineford, and, most recently, 50,000 fishmen at Fishman Island.
Numbers. Don't. Faze. Luffy. At. All.
He can easily take out all the clones with Conqueror's Haki or Gomu Gomu no Jet Storm.




SPEED

I really do apologize for bringing up this issue so late into the debate, but the argument I used to concede Naruto's speed actually was logically fallacious.

I agree with Pro's contention that Naruto can move faster than light.

However, Pro then goes on to state that "Luffy is in his Gear 2nd form, which is his fastest form. Notice that there are no instances in which he is so fast, he dissapears and reappears like Naruto did. However, his punches leave traces of condensed air, although not as big as a real sonic boom. Therefore, it is plausible to say that Luffy's top speed is similar to the speed of sound "

First of all, he DOES move that fast...
Look at videos 1 and 2. There are SEVERAL instances of him moving so much faster than light that he appears invsible.

Second of all, Pro has mis-indentified the trails that Luffy leaves behind.
That is not caused by his speed; that is simply STEAM from his Gear Second. It has nothing to do with the speed of sound or whatever...


Also, Luffy BEAT a man MADE of LIGHTNING (Enel) by moving faster than him EVEN WITHOUT GEAR SECOND (Video 3, 2:50). Enel was unable to escape Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Rifle because it was too fast for him, despite the fact that he himself is made of lightning.

Sub-conclusions:
-Luffy's attacks can be faster than lightning.
-Both characters can move at or above the speed of light, and so neither has the speed advantage.




CONCLUSIONS:


-Unless he can do a sealing technique, his Haki wouldn't be as affective as Con claims it is against the Nine Tails (who's apparently made of Haki as well).



No matter what Nine Tails is made of (Logia or Haki), Luffy's powerful Haki attacks will be sufficient to knock it out.

-Naruto's armor is superior because it is an imortal fragmant of a God with it's own conciousness and heals Naruto's wounds.


We have already deduced that Nine Tails can be knocked out with Haki.
And Naruto's Nine Tails Armor has its own disadvantages, such as lack of control.

-Luffy cannot adapt underwater without any special gadgetry. Even if the setting was on a pirate ship in the middle of the ocean, he cannot adapt well if Naruto and Luffy destroy the ship in their fight, leaving Naruto standing on the surface of the ocean while Luffy drowns.


As I showed, the likelihood of an underwater battle is very low, and simply the presence of water at the battlefield will pose a very minimal threat to Luffy, due to his combat experience and adaptability.




I wish my opponent good luck with the final round of the debate! :D




Debate Round No. 4
Defro

Pro

Con goes to much in detail in theoretical assumptions, therefore I will do the same.

____________________________________________________________

The Nine Tails Solution

"When comparing the characters of two shows, it is necessary to make their fighting mechanisms compatible."

-While this is true, Con must realize that there are some things that are not compatible due to their huge differences. To make them compatible would mean to give one an advantage over the other, like Con has so conviniently done based off of a few minor similarities.


"So? If a gun was alive, it would still kill people the same way: by shooting."

-That's what I'm saying! If a gun was alive, it wouldn't need someone to hold it. It can choose who to shoot and who not to shoot.

-Is Con suggesting that a living entity with it's own conciousness is the same as a tool just because they both give their users destructive power? This is of course a rhetorical question.


"If the Nine Tails is just like a Logia user in terms of strength and ability, then it is logical to conclude that it also has similar weaknesses."

-Con is conviniently basing his assumptions off of common similarities he finds between do very different things. The Nine Tails is not vulnerable to water, thereby refuting his statement that Logia users and the Nine Tails have similar weaknesses.

-Making the two shows compatible in this way is not fair because then the Nine Tails would be vulnerable to water. Therefore, Con is deliberately trying to make the shows compatible in his vision to give Naruto a disadvantage.

-
Con is mainly integrating Naruto into the One Piece universe. However, Con's way of making the two shows compatible can work both ways. By Con's logic of compatibility, Luffy's Haki would be Chakra if put in the Naruto universe, and Chakra is not very effective against the Nine Tails.


"Sub-conclusion: Nine Tails CAN be a Logia."

-And Haki CAN be Chakra.


"However, this point works against my opponent, as this would clearly make the Nine Tailed Fox a physical being that CAN be hit using haki-infused attacks! (ever heard of fighting fire with fire?)"

-How can Haki work against Haki?

-
This would not be fighting fire with fire, because the Nine Tail's body is its Haki while Luffy's body contains Haki in it. Therefore a better analogy would be fighting fire (Nine Tails) with a Molotov Cocktail (Luffy) because Molotov Cocktails have fire in it and can cause a fiery destruction. Yet if put together, the fire from the molotov cocktail would not harm fire, but add to it, and in the end the total fire would melt the glass of the cocktail.


-And according to the link provided below, the Nine Tails is centuries old, thereby giving him more time than Luffy to be able to master the "Haki" that it is composed of, therefore theoretically it would also be able to use Haki even more effectively than Luffy.
http://naruto.wikia.com...

-If the Nine Tails is completely made of "Haki", then it's abilities would be more flexible than Luffy's because Luffy's Haki abilities are restricted by his body. The Nine Tail's body would be its Haki, therefore it's abilities are more flexible, able to do more with its Haki.


"the Nine Tails armor is a SEPARATE ENTITY from Naruto, and thus, once that separate entity has been defeated, Naruto is left with no armor."

-As mentioned my me, the Nine Tails cannot be defeated unless you seal him.


"If Nine Tails is made of Haki, Luffy's haki-infused attacks will STILL work on it"

-Con has not provided a mechanism as to how Luffy's Haki-infused attacks can work against a being made completely made of Haki.

-I have shown through analogy of the fire and cocktail, that the Haki attacks would not work on Haki itself.

-If indeed it does, then it all comes to who has the stronger Haki: the boy who discovered its existence and trained with it 2 years ago, or the being made of Haki who had centuries to perfect it.


"Thus, Luffy and Naruto have EQUAL levels of durability."

-I haven now established that Naruto's level of durability is in fact stronger than Luffy's.


Brute Strength

"When I say "brute strength", I'm talking about the sheer force of their physical attacks.The sole purpose of Gear Second and Gear Third is to add to that, so they do count..."

-So Con is saying that techniques that Luffy developed determine brute strength. Why, by this meaning, Naruto's Oodama Rasengan has just as much Brute Strength as a punch from Luffy's Gear 3rd.

-Therefore Naruto and Luffy are equal in Brute Strength.


Special Advantages

"It has been shown that in that mode, the Nine Tailed Fox goes on a mad rampage with no regard for who Naruto's actual target is. This has been shown repeatedly throughout the show, with the problem becoming so so bad that Naruto has to have a ninja with him during training (Yamato) JUST to make sure he doesn't turn into Nine Tails!"

-Con is clearly not up-to-date with Naruto. Naruto and the Nine Tails came to even terms and became buddies and now he doesn't go on a mad rampage. Now, he definately will focus on the actual target.




"The Nine Tails Armor may give Naruto a huge boost in strength and defense, but the fact is, that Naruto cannot make Nine Tails do what he wants during battle, which means that by using the Nine Tails Armor, Naruto sacrifices his control over himself."

-Naruto can tell Nine Tails what to do and Nine Tails would probably do it. They're buddies now.


"Frankly, Pro seems a bit obsessed with the battle being underwater...."

-And con is a bit obsessed with making the shows compatible to his advantage.


"Underwater isn't Naruto's ideal battle field either; he has absolutely no experience in such a setting."

-I am not arguing underwater, I am arguing on water. Naruto can run on water just as fast as he can on land. A lot of his important battles have been held in a setting in which he must run on water such as his last fight with Sasuke before Shippuden.


"Pro disregards the fact that Luffy is perfectly capable of staying out of the water."

-I just refuted this in the last round by giving a possible situation and setting in which Luffy would not be able to stay out of water. Con's example of Don Krieg proves nothing because Don Krieg is certainly weaker than Naruto and in that particular situation, Luffy always had a place to stay away from water. In my example, Naruto destroys the whole ship, leaving Luffy with no place as refuge from water.


"Pro overestimates the threat that water poses to Luffy."

-No I don't. Water is very much a threat to Luffy.


"Luffy has easily taken out 500 Marine soldiers at Ennies Lobby, 1000 zombies at Thriller Bark, countless marine soldiers at Marineford, and, most recently, 50,000 fishmen at Fishman Island.
Numbers. Don't. Faze. Luffy. At. All."

-I stand corrected. Luffy has never faced hundreds of Naruto's shadow clones. The 500 soldiers and 1000 zombies are not Naruto and are not clones. As mentioned previously by me, Naruto's clones would not harm Luffy much, but they would certainly confuse him to a degree.


Speed

"I really do apologize for bringing up this issue so late into the debate, but the argument I used to concede Naruto's speed actually was logically fallacious."

-Viewers remember to put this on the scoreboard.


"Look at videos 1 and 2. There are SEVERAL instances of him moving so much faster than light that he appears invsible."

-I knew you'd bring that up. I don't have to view them because I've already analyzed them and concluded that he does not move as fast as Naruto. At around 3:00 in the first video Luffy indeed moved so fast, Blueno could not see him, but Blueno could still kind of follow with Luffy's movements, because his speed is similar to sound's, not light.

-The speed of CP9's Rokushiki is not as fast as light. And it's speed, perforemed by Lucci, matches Luffy's, therefore Luffy is not as fast as light.
http://onepiece.wikia.com...;


"Luffy BEAT a man MADE of LIGHTNING"

-Are you kidding me? That had nothing to do with speed! The Lightning Man stood still and let Luffy punch him! That was very slow compared to Naruto. Enel is certainly not as fast as lightning in the video provided by Con, therefore Con's argument is invalid.

-Furthermore, Luffy had a great advantage over him because electricity does not harm Luffy's rubber body.


"Luffy's attacks can be faster than lightning."

-No it can't.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Conclusion-Rebuttals

"No matter what Nine Tails is made of (Logia or Haki), Luffy's powerful Haki attacks will be sufficient to knock it out."

-As mentioned previously, the Nine Tails can't lose its conciousness, therefore it cannot be "knocked out." And now it has been established that the Nine Tail's "Haki attacks" would be stronger than Luffy's.


"We have already deduced that Nine Tails can be knocked out with Haki.
And Naruto's Nine Tails Armor has its own disadvantages, such as lack of control."

-Nine Tails cannot be knocked out.

-It has been established in this round that Naruto can control the Nine Tails Armor because they became best buddies.


"As I showed, the likelihood of an underwater battle is very low, and simply the presence of water at the battlefield will pose a very minimal threat to Luffy, due to his combat experience and adaptability."

-You did not show anything. In fact, I showed that the likelihood of the setting be on water (not underwater) very high because most of the Earth's surface is water.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

*Nevertheless, I have shown that it is possible for Naruto to defeat Luffy if the setting were to be on water. And if you were to refer to the title, it says Naruto can defeat Luffy.

Props to con for a great debate!
Romanii

Con

So here we are... the concluding round of the great Luffy vs. Naruto debate :D


THE NINE TAILS SOLUTION (Actual)

"Is Con suggesting that a living entity with it's own consciousness is the same as a tool just because they both give their users destructive power?"

No...
I'm saying that whether or not the Nine Tails is conscious or not doesn't change what it is made of.

"Con must realize that there are some things that are not compatible due to their huge differences. To make them compatible would mean to give one an advantage over the other"

Except it isn't an unfair advantage.
Haki is an element that is completely unknown to the world of Naruto (it is NOT chakra). We don't know what kind of effects it would have if introduced. Based on its effects in the One Piece world (i.e. working against otherwise invincible enemies), it is logical to say that it would work on Nine Tails as well!

Sub-conclusion 1: Haki WOULD work on Nine Tails.
Sub-conclusion 2: Luffy and Naruto have equal levels of durability




BRUTE STRENGTH


"Con is saying that techniques that Luffy developed determine brute strength. Why, by this meaning, Naruto's Oodama Rasengan has just as much Brute Strength as a punch from Luffy's Gear 3rd."

No, Rasengan is not at all physical. A Gear 3rd punch, however, is still purely physical. Only Naruto's attacks in Sage Mode count as brute strength on his part, and it has already been shown that Luffy in Gear Second




SPECIAL ADVANTAGES

"Naruto can tell Nine Tails what to do and Nine Tails would probably do it. They're buddies now."

Ah, yes. I totally forgot. Sorry.

However, now that Pro has brought this up, we must note that ever since Naruto and Nine Tails became friends, Naruto has not used the armor even once, despite the fact that he HAS been in desperate situations since then.

This can be explained by the fact that the Nine Tails Armor technique relies on Nine Tails taking advantage of Naruto's emotions in highly stressful moments to seize control of his body, and since they are now friendly with each other, Nine Tails wouldn't do such a thing.

This is an interesting new aspect to the fight, and it is a pity that my opponent will not have a chance to refute it, but the contention does still stand that there is a possibility Naruto cannot use the Nine Tails Armor anymore due to the changed nature of his relationship with Nine Tails.

However, for the sake of fairness, I will continue to keep Luffy and Naruto tied in terms of Durability.

"...con is a bit obsessed with making the shows compatible to his advantage."

Pro is a bit obsessed with keeping the shows incompatible to his advantage...

"Con's example of Don Krieg proves nothing because Don Krieg is certainly weaker than Naruto and in that particular situation"

I agree Don Krieg is much weaker than Naruto, but Luffy was also proportionally weak at the time, with barely 10 different standard Gomu Gomu attacks at the time. Pro's rebuttal does not stand.

"Luffy always had a place to stay away from water. In my example, Naruto destroys the whole ship, leaving Luffy with no place as refuge "

Luffy would simply not allow that to happen. He isn't that smart, but has enough of a brain to know that the fight is over if the ship is destroyed, and would ensure that it doesn't happen.
And also, Pro forgets that nearly ALL the battles in BOTH series are on land with little to no interference of water! It doesn't matter that much of the Earth is covered with water. We must look at the battle history of the show to see where the battle is likely to take place.

Sub-conclusion 1: It is very unlikely that water will serve as an interference in their fight
Sub-conclusion 2: Even if water is a primary component of the battle field, Luffy can take measures to avoid falling in, as he has done before several times.




SPEED

First of all, vote-grabbing is not cool. I brought up the contention early enough that you had two chances to try and refute it, so it really isn't that unfair.

"At around 3:00 in the first video Luffy indeed moved so fast, Blueno could not see him, but Blueno could still kind of follow with Luffy's movements, because his speed is similar to sound's, not light."

I have analyzed them as well.

Let's start with this basic rule:
If something moves at or above the speed of light, then it will appear invisible.

We consistently see that during his jumps, Luffy is totally invisble because of how fast he is. This shows that he is, indeed, as fast or faster than light when he jumps. The only time we even see a flash of him is when he touches a wall or the ground and takes a nano-second to launch off, momentarily slowing down to below the speed of light.

It is those nano-pauses which Blueno allowed Blueno somewhat follow Luffy's movements.
Also, keep in mind, that was the first time Luffy ever used Gear Second, so he had very limited control over it.
After 2 years of training, he has gotten a much better hang of the technique.

Luffy and Naruto can both move at or above the speed of light.

"Are you kidding me? That had nothing to do with speed! The Lightning Man stood still and let Luffy punch him!"

That is false. Enel said "too fast" right before getting pummeled by Luffy's punch. Enel wanted to use his lightning speed to move, but he couldn't because Luffy's attacks are, indeed, faster than lightning.





CONCLUSION

I will do this in the form of the Combat Analysis presented in round one:



1) Brute Strength

Luffy's muscle power is comparable even to Naruto's Sage Mode strength.
With Gear Second and/or Gear Third, there is no doubt that the physical force of Luffy's attacks are much, much, greater than Naruto's.

(Luffy 1, Naruto 0)




2) Intelligence

Conceded to Naruto for obvious reasons

(Luffy 1, Naruto 1)




3) Speed

It has been demonstrated that both Luffy and Naruto can move at or above the speed of light. Pro had two rounds to refute my contentions, so bringing it up later into the debate isn't a cause for conduct point loss.

(Luffy 1, Naruto 1)




4) Reflexes

Pro never disputed Luffy's superior reflexes.

(Luffy 2, Naruto 1)




5) Durability

Luffy's Haki will almost certainly work on Nine Tails.
There is a chance Naruto can't use the Nine Tails Armor anymore.
Luffy has his own formidable Haki armor.
Both Luffy and Naruto have incredible levels of will power.

(Luffy 2, Naruto 1)




6) Special Advantages

Naruto has no exploitable weaknesses.
It has been thoroughly shown that Luffy's weakness to water poses a very minimal threat to him because 1) likelihood of water being the primary component of the battle field is low, and 2) Luffy's adaptability, determination, and good luck would keep him safe even in a battle on a ship, as has been shown.

(Luffy 2, Naruto 1)

Winner: Luffy


Analysis:

It has been shown that Naruto is only superior in terms of intelligence. However this trait has been present in many,many of Luffy's opponents (e.g. Kuro, Crocodile, Lucci) and it has never had a huge effect on the outcome of Luffy's battles.

Meanwhile, Luffy is superior in both physical strength as well as reflexes, two vital skills for combat.

The two are virtually equal in terms of speed and durability, and neither has any special advantages over the other.



LUFFY WOULD WIN IN A BATTLE WITH NARUTO.




I would like to end off by saying this was a really fun debate; it has inspired me to re-watch the entire series :)

Thanks to Pro for engaging in this debate with me!



Debate Round No. 5
61 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Zerker 6 months ago
Zerker
Puff, the best debate ;) , but now, Naruto has the six paths sage mode, in this form he is almost invincible, he has no armor but, Gudodamas, these things are unbreakable, just the sage energy could beat 'em, and Luffy has no sage energy :v, now the brute strength in six paths mode Naruto is highly strong, more than the beast mode. I'm fan of both series, well I like One Piece a lot more, but a relize Naruto has got truly strong.
Posted by Romanii 2 years ago
Romanii
Lol I Jay-D's vote on this debate was so BS -.-
I can totally use it as an example of selective voting...
Posted by PeacefulChaos 3 years ago
PeacefulChaos
I haven't read the latest chapter because I've started the series from the beginning and was re-watching it, but I've heard spoilers.
Posted by Defro 3 years ago
Defro
Me too! OMGOMGOMG
Posted by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
I'm still recovering from seeing Sabo for the first time XD
Posted by Defro 3 years ago
Defro
Yeah! It blew my mind! I was literally jumping up and down from the excitement!
Posted by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
Have you read the latest chapter?
Posted by Defro 3 years ago
Defro
I'll definitely follow it and vote! One Piece is my favorite!
Posted by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
Can't wait :D
Posted by PeacefulChaos 3 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Romanii and I agreed to do a debate on One Piece, but I wouldn't mind doing another one (preferably late May or into the summer).

It could be the a similar topic as this one, or it could involve other characters (e.g. Sasuke vs. Roana Zoro; Shichibukai vs. Akatsuki; etc.).
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Jay-D 3 years ago
Jay-D
DefroRomaniiTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Under close scrutiny, I observed spelling mistakes from Pro, but Con had a fair share of grammar errors too (such as the usage of "invincible"). Hence, to be PERFECTLY fair, I tie S&G. However, Con loses conduct, because of his concession and subsequent retraction about speed comparisons. Con also loses sources, since he relied solely on videos, while Pro cared for other sources too (even though they were from wikis). Pro could have brought up naruto's latest abilities (like bijuu-dama and oodama rasenshuriken), and mentioned that his sheer willpower (seen against obito) is definitely a deciding factor. Con seemed to be getting ahead in arguments, but he lost on the factor of speed (There's a difference between "light" and "lightning". Naruto is at shunshin's level, while Luffy can only outpace Enel. Besides, there's also the conduct thing). Con's rebuttals of brute strength and fire (weaknesses) were also vague. Arguments are tied. I seem to have gotten carried away :-P It's 3-0 Pro
Vote Placed by blaze8 3 years ago
blaze8
DefroRomaniiTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: This is a really tough one, because I have read the manga and watched the animes, and it seems like you guys are working mostly off the animes. Pro could have won the debate with one technique: the tailed beast bomb. It's immensely powerful, in my opinion, the most powerful technique in the series, and to not see it mentioned by Pro was a little disappointing. Thus, I give the arguments to Con. I prefer naruto to one piece, but I had to evaluate this based on the arguments made. If pro had just used the tailed beast bomb in his argument, there's nothing luffy could have done to survive a hit like that imo.
Vote Placed by chewster911 3 years ago
chewster911
DefroRomaniiTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: I rarely watch Naruto,but for the sake of this debate i watched an episode of The One Piece. I will judge on the arguments,not on reality or my opinion. Both Pro and Con provided very convincing arguments. Con had a slightly better arguments. Con proved that Luffy can beat Naruto, opposing to Pro's claim. Although i think it's a matter of luck in the battle,Con did prove his point. Argument points to Con. S&G tied. I must give source points to Pro,since he provided images,along side the videos. Good job guys!