Naruto is overrated, and is average at its best
Debate Rounds (5)
I am currently still watching the show and am midway shippuden, and I don't read the manga (which might be slightly better in quality).
By "average" I mean that this story wasn't written out decently, that it's a mixture of both good and bad ideas, and that in the end, even the biggest fan is left with quite a few serious iissues. The show is very repetetive as well.
There is no true BoP for this debate, I will simply list the things that could have been better, and my opponent will list the things that would make this show fantastic (as in deserving the attention it currently gets).
The voters will then decide if tCon has succesfully defended Naruto, or if I have brought you to doubt about Naruto.
Good luck to my opponent! Please accept in the first round, tell me how much you've seen of the anime and how much you've read of the manga!
No sourcing either, as we both watch the series and will know if the other one is making things up.
If possible, try not to spoil it for me... Currently watching Sasuke vs Danzo
Now, I will begin enlisting my argumentation.
I. Consistent problems in Naruto
1) Naruto - the main character - is useless.
Even if we would see him as a vessel to this fictional world, he still has more screentime than anyone else. Before shippuden, he was completely useless in battle, while after shippuden, he alledgedly would be better but dissapoints the viewer again by not having learnt any new techniques. We literally had to wait until the fight against pain, which is midway shippuden. All those hours of watching the character Naruto before that, are lost! The jokes about Sasuke being better is not something to base an entity of 200 episodes on. Neither is the love triangle. As a character that brings emotions into the series, Naruto is quite useless as well. Feeling sorry for Naruto is very hard as he is more arrogant than humble.
He also makes it through simply by luck - should he not have farted, Kiba would have defeated him. These kinds of luck make the show terrible.
2) Sometimes, the writer lets his fantasy get the better of him.
By this, I mean that he stretches his limits too far. An example of this would be the tailed beasts, which seem to be almost in the center of the story. Not only are these beast fights a pain to watch, It's also the only reason why Naruto brought something to the table in the before-shippuden period. Although it was horrible to see those fights, it is the reason why Haku was defeated. Wouldn't the show be much better if Naruto actually posessed some talent or was simply born with a tremendous amount of chakra, rather than these ugly and boring-to-watch beasts being integrated in the story?
Another example of this would be the Susano, although I have only just seen it for the first time, it seems ugly and ruins everything that there is to a ninja fight.
3) The killing off of characters
First of all, the writer seriously can't expect us to both hate a villain and feel sorry for him all within about 4 episodes (Kimimaro for example). The opposite is possible as well: Orochimaru, the main villain for over 200 episodes, gets killed without a fight. He was no longer fun to watch, so he had to die, but to not let him put up a fight was ridiculous. On the other hand, while there are so many names to remember from the hidden leaf village, only 2 "heroes" have ever died: Jiraija and the third Hokage. Chiyo etc. do not count as they were barely introduced when already "sentenced to death" by the author.
Itachi however is a special case, a fight impossible to not be entertaining. But was it really worth spending hours just to see that one fight?
II. The use of readymades
1) The author literally took existing myths from Japan, leaving very little coming from his own originality.
Examples of this are Ichiraku Ramen (this place exists), the sannin (from mythology, literally), "sasuke" (the most famous ninja name to ever exist) and much, much more things are not really his ideas. This does not make the show bad, but it does result in a quality dip when he ran out of "readymades" and started relying on his own fantasy.
III. The averageness of the show
1) This show was meant to be on TV. You can see that, as they fit in a small story (20 minutes) within an Arc, making for a whole story to be told everytime a child sees the show aired. I can only assume that they showed an entire Arc daily.
When randomly seeing this show, it will not be appealing as it is hard to keep up with all the characters and their talents/backstories. So on air, this show isn't really worth watching unless you want to see random battles not understanding why they fight, or unless you're going to watch the whole thing without missing a single episode.
When not watching this on TV, you would wish there were no ARCS as it is annoying they constantly start new, small stories. The anime-watcher wishes for the continuity that the manga reader has.
2) Fillers are self-explanatory, these are simply useless parts that still get fitted in regardless of the anime already being far behind the manga. Not only that, they are mandatory as sometimes they include things that are actually important for the real story.
3) The only reason this show really succeeds is because you're constantly looking forward to see characters develop and big fights take place. When you first watch this show, you'll be rather annoyed by the unfunny jokes and the uselessness of Naruto. My friend literally kept me in it saying that "but Naruto fighting pain is epic, and Itachi vs sasuke daaaamn". If only I could have those hours back, that I waited just to see these fights. Now that I'm in it, it is hard to stop though. The viewer will be captured by this ninja world, only because he's already so connected to the characters. But, the show would play out much better if it didn't have those 300 episodes as bad as they were. That time should be spent on more than just building up for shippuden.
I will leave it at this for now, my opponent can choose if he further outlines his arguments or if h e leaves it at that and starts refuting mine.
Good luck to con!
2. The main character is a tailed beast, so it stands to reason that the tailed beasts would be the center of the story. Additionally, the show wouldn't make any sense if Naruto just randomly had more karma than anybody else. Not to mention, his tailed beast is what sets him apart from all of the other characters.
3. I'm not sure what the affirmative was trying to say here other than killing off characters is bad. Kimimaro was a very sad character, and you could easily see why he was doing what he did. I agree that Orochimaru dying without a fight was a bit lame, but that doesn't make his death any less satisfying. The reason only two heroes have died is because the writer obviously doesn't want to start murdering all of his protaganists unless he's planning on ending the series. As far as Itachi, it was worth it, mainly because Itachi provided all of Sasuke's motivation, and was also the source of all of Sasuke's character development.
4. Next, the affirmative says that the writer is unoriginal. He probably used a real ramen place as a shout out or an easter egg for anybody who recognized the name. As far as the sannin being part of mythology, this is just the writer putting a more modern and interesting spin on old mythology. As far as Sasuke being a real ninja name, this show is about ninjas. It stands to reason that the writer would want to use an established ninja name. It's like if we made a medieval movie, we would probably name the king Arthur because it's a name that everybody is familiar with. Not to mention, the Affirmative already admitted that it didn't make the show bad, but that there is a "quality dip," when the writer began using his own imagination. Does the aff wish for the entire anime to be based on stuff that already exists, cause that would get really boring, really quickly.
5. First of all, an arc is not twenty minutes long. An episode is twenty minutes long. An arc consists of multiple episodes, such as the Sasuke Retrieval arc. Second, one should probably not be watching a show if they don't understand what is going on. That's just asinine.
6. Lastly, the aff claimed that the only reason one should watch the show is because you're connected to the characters. Not only is this a great reason to watch the show, I provided numerous reasons to watch the show which my opponent didn't cover, and I also just defeated all of the Aff's supposed reasons not to watch the show.
I chose not to discuss filler, because filler is exactly that. It's something created by the makers of the show to waste time while the show catches up with the manga. It has nothing to do with the story, and therefore has no weight in this debate.
I'm now ready for any rebuttals and defenses the Aff would like to make.
I'll try to figure out my opponent's points here.
1) Naruto = fun to watch
A: it would be funny
B: it has fight scenes
About the funny part, we'll get back to that later. But the jokes are clearly made for a younger age group.
The fight scenes can be entertaining, but I have already criticized them for returning factors. That makes the fights nothing more than just simple entertainment!
2) entertaining, but with a deep and enriching story.
Here it fails for both age groups: younger kids are annoyed by the enriching story, older viewers are annoyed by the unfunny jokes which don't entertain at all.
Opponent kind of agrees that it deserves to be criticized as a generic shonen.
And, my opponent states that voice acting is awful.
Okay, back to my points:
1) My opponent says that you COULD feel bad for Naruto, however, we're clearly not meant to identify ourselves with him. In all ways, his arrogance is something nobody connects to, and in Japan, blonde hair and whiskers just makes it even harder to identify yourself with his looks. I think that for these reasons, we can't truly feel sorry for Naruto over a total of 200 episodes.
Naruto would not be useless, says my opponent, his example being Haku (tailed beast, so boring) and Gaara (The toad did everything, Naruto just mentally made Gaara switch sides). About luck, it is clear that there are numerous examples. Kiba and the farting, but simply the fact that he got matched up against Kiba and not gaara. Had he faced Gaara, his carreer would've been over. Had he not stolen the multi shadow clone technique scroll, he wouldn't have ever been able to do ANYTHING! Not to mention, it takes him an awful long time to actually master the rasengan.
2) The writer's fantasy: my opponent only comments on the tailed beasts. First, it's chakra and not Karma. Second, I wouldn't mind the tailed beasts as much if they looked cooler and were featured less often. Their fights ARE boring, after all.
3) Must apologise that now that I know he has not seen shippuden yet, that telling him about Orochimaru was a huge spoiler... He says Kimimaro was a sad character, to which I agree, but he simply came and went. We could not feel sorry for him like we did for Zabuza, or for Pain. That happens too often here: the writer feels the need for side villains, which simply come as a villain, then lose the fight, and then a flashback to explain their sad story. This structure won't get us connected to characters, though. The voter will agree that the sole case of Tobi is one where the writer DID succeed. Will not spoil why, though.
Also, my opponent hasn't given a good reason why side characters such as Rock Lee or Tenten should stay alive. Their storyline seems used up, and while Lee is fun to watch, Tenten is actually very boring. I'm sorry I forgot to mention that Asuma died too, making for an awesome revenge Arc. We needed to see more of that throughout the series, and less of the Naruto being a brat during Part 1.
The way characters are killed off could be a lot better. The example of Itachi still counts, as that fight should have been a lot more interesting. Sasuke using his cursed seal isn't exactly what we were waiting for. I think all of us can agree that there should have been a better fight for Itachi before his dissapearance from the show!
4) Con thinks Ichiraku ramen was an easter egg, while I highly doubt new writers would be concerned with such things in their series. I'm very certain this was a readymade, as he ate there daily just like Naruto. Naruto went to the academy, the writer went to college. Clearly, the author put some of his own joys into Naruto.
About the mythology: I have no problems with the showing of mythology. In fact, it should be praised. But the viewer won't truly notice much of this, other then the fact that this fictional world is entirely based on readymades. Almost none of the good stuff comes from the author's mind.
Neji's gentle fist technique, exists
Handsigns come from buddhist signs
Sharingan techniques from goddess of sun, moon etc.
This show should therefore not be praised for its originality, but only for the recounting of good stories. My true argument here was that the writers own imagination fails to keep up with the mythology. Con says it would be boring if everything already existed, but I am a 100% certain that none of you had heard these Japanese stories before. So why does the writer still add his own stupid ideas such as a "puppet master" which makes for boring fights?
5) I have never said an Arc was 20 minutes. I said that a small story (episode) of 20 minutes was shown within an Arc. I also doubt any TV station was willing to show a whole Arc non-stop, making it hard to see an entire Arc without missing anything. People who watch it solely on TV, will miss out on things, and because of that they can't watch the show: just like con says, don't watch it if you don't know what's going on. So on TV, this show is completely worthless.
6) My opponent ignored my argumentation here: is it worth watching these characters develop, spending literally 24 hours of episodes with little good only assuming it'll get better? Does that outweigh the time spent watching Naruto suck at being a ninja? It wasn't all bad, no, definately not. But I believe the show relies on its length to get as much attention as it does now. I would have never continued watching this if I wasn't constantly reassured by my friend that "in shippuden, big fights will take place". I was constantly mourning that no villain seemed to be as good as Zabuza and throughout the months of watching, sometimes I really got fed up with it. But this is personal, ofcourse. Overall though, I have shown why this show is only average rather than complete amazement throughout the WHOLE series.
My opponent says we would not discuss fillers but I have given a very clear reason why that is mandatory: now, they insert important things for the main story in the fillers. Capturing the three-tails for example. Or all non-flashback moments in the lost tower promotion arc. Plenty of reasons why we should be considerate about fillers. After all, they're shown on TV too as if they are equal to the rest of the show. Conclusion? Fillers matter. Besides, the one watching on TV cannot simply skip these episodes.
Con seems inconsiderate saying that last round i did not have any rebuttals to his argumentation. I thought it was clear that each person first posts his arguments, and then comments on the other's arguments the next round?
Also, you haven't really given me much to refute. You have yet to prove why this show would be more than average. More than worth watching even, you have to prove that it deserves all the fans and attention it currently has.
You haven't done that yet and neither are we done talking about the negative points to the show. Even if you were to refute my points, you have yet to make your own case.
mudkip624 forfeited this round.
I enjoyed it as long as it lasted, hopefully we'll meet again debating this topic once more... If you feel ready, just challenge me ;)
mudkip624 forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ajab 2 years ago
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