The Instigator
Kinesis
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points
The Contender
Ore_Ele
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

Naruto seriously owns Bleach.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/2/2011 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,047 times Debate No: 16826
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (34)
Votes (5)

 

Kinesis

Pro

Full resolution: On balance, the manga Naruto [1] is superior to the manga Bleach [2].

Superior: Higher in quality [3]. This will be determined by reference to the plot, character development, art style, battles or any other points relevant to the quality of either manga.

Round one will be for acceptance, the rest of the rounds will be for arguing. The burden of proof will be shared.

[1] http://www.mangafox.com...
[2] http://www.mangafox.com...
[3] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
Ore_Ele

Con

I accept my opponent's definitions and look forward to this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Kinesis

Pro

Before beginning, I would like to note to the almost exclusively male teenage audience that Naruto is the manga with 'the sexy technique' (or おいろけの術) [1]. It is described as "a Transformation Technique used to transform the user into a beautiful, nude woman in a very seductive posture with either mists of smoke covering her chest and groin, or in a bathing suit. Naruto uses it to distract or win over men, sometimes leading to an exaggerated nosebleed by the victim, though some men have been able to resist it". I would like the voters in this debate to seriously consider whether they have the power to resist such a technique; if not, the winner is clear already.

With that in mind, my arguments will be thus: Bleach has a great number of annoying plot inconsistencies that demonstrate poor planning; the ending to the recent arc in Bleach was underwhelming, bordered on deus ex machina [2] and ruined the character Aizen; the characters in Naruto are more complex and engaging than in Bleach; and finally, that the fights in Naruto are more interesting, varied and generally bad@ss than Bleach.

1: Annoying plot holes and inconsistencies.

a. The first Captain (highest ranked soul reaper) that Ichigo fights is Zaraki Kenpachi [3] whom he just barely defeats after taking severe injuries himself. Now, it's worth noting that this is before Ichigo unlocks his Bankai which is noted to increase the power of the user by at least 5 times and as much as 10 times [4]. That's right, he defeated one of the most powerful characters in the manga while at least five times weaker than later on! Nothing in the manga later on can account for such a massive power increase. Ichigo convincingly loses to the sixth most powerful espada WITH his bankai later on [5], and without Grimmjow even changing into his released form, while Kenpachi defeats the fifth most powerful espada without apparently increasing his power and later defeats the most powerful espada along with Byakuya [6]. Ichigo should be FAR more powerful than Kenpachi by that point yet he is seemingly weaker.

b. Aizen forgets how to use Kyōka Suigetsu during the final battle with Ichigo. This was a MASSIVE let down for me. I was looking forward to whatever device the writers were going to use to allow Ichigo to defeat Aizen despite him having the ability to control the five senses. Was Ichigo going to have to keep his eyes closed, using only his other senses and ability to sense spiritual pressure? Was he going to somehow break through Aizen's abillity, able to distinguish between false sense data and real sense data? Well, none of that happens because Aizen never even uses his ability. He has control of his zanpakutō until the very end when it is destroyed and has used it in virtually every fight previously. Yet, inexplicably, he never uses it in the one time when he's being outclassed in power.

2: Poor ending to the recent arc.

One of the most intriguing aspects of Bleach has been the main villain Aizen. He is a constant terror and incredibly powerful adversary; able to control the five senses and more powerful than all the captains. However, all this is horribly mishandled in the final battle between him and Ichigo. For a start, the fact that Ichigo is even on Aizen's level is just explained with a generic shōnen power up sequence [7] where he travels inside himself and faces his zanpakutō in battle and his inner demons which is lame and generic, as well as being a conveinient plot device bordering on a Deux ex machina. Secondly, the writers turn Aizen into a freakish looking monster of the week, with no special powers except to blow stuff up and regenerate [8], with is completely antithetical to what made Aizen a great villian in the first place. All in all, the recent finale was a botched job and a severe disappointment.

3: Characters in Naruto and Bleach.

Character development in Naruto > character development in Bleach. Why? We need only look at the two protagonists. Ichigo...well, what exactly has changed with Ichigo except repeated power-ups? Has his personality changed? Has he become more mature, has he developed in any way from the slightly emoish kid at the beginning? I can't think that he has. Naruto, on the other hand, has changed from the beginning of the series as a childish prankster [9] to a mature teenager who has experienced the loss of his close mentor and had to challenge the facts of the real world - for instance, Pein's revelation that the hidden leaf villiage was responsible for keeping war going in the hidden rain villiage, leading to the death of many innocent people [10], and subsenquently blurring the naive border between good and evil. Sasuke is another example. Starting out as a child who experienced the loss of his entire family and clan at the hands of his brother, Sasuke has steadily became more consumed with hatred over the series, leading to his manipulation by Orochimaru and Madara Uchiha to become one of the main antagonists of the series. This has also had the effect of dissillusioning Sakura, who used to love him but recently attempted to kill Sasuke in manga, by tricking him into thinking she wanted to follow him, but couldn't bring herself to, and barely escaped alive [11]. As we can see, the characters are in constant flux throughout the series, with interesting backstories and developments. I've only scratched the surface; there simply isn't anything comparable in Bleach.

4: The fights.

The fights in Naruto are simply more varied, original and interesting than in Bleach. Again, let's take the main protagnoist as an example. Ichigo's abilities are almost entirely 'theoretical' - i.e., they have no seeable effect but allow the writers to caim that he's more powerful. For example, his bankai increases his speed and his mask ability increases all his 'stats'. The only exception is getsuga tenshou, which is a generic energy slash attack. Naruto on the other hand, has a number of interesting techniques. He can create easily destructable clones of himself; he can create a water/wind energy ball that can be manipulated in a number of ways - formed into a shiruken ranged attack, used as a close range 'punch' attack; he can summon giant toads to fight alongside him; and when he gets exceptionally angry, he can transform into a monstrous fox-like creature which also has its own set of moves. Finally, he can gather 'nature energy' to dramatically increase his speed and strength temporarily - however it also has noticable effects in battle such as the ability to hit without the blow connecting, it is used to combat one of Pein's bodies by transferring it into a stone frog when it tries to absorb his chakra.

Pein is another great example - he is one person controlling six bodies, each of which has its own powers. The ability to bring back the dead, the ability to manipulate objects through repulsion and attraction, the ability to summon monsters and so on. Are there any characters in Bleach with such a large and varied move-pool? Not really. All this leads to more interesting battles, such as when Naruto's mentor fought Pein but died in the battle, Pein slowly revealing his different abilities throughout, and then the subsequent showdown between Pein and the entire Leaf villiage where he destroys it.

[1] http://naruto.wikia.com...
[2] http://tvtropes.org...
[3] http://bleach.wikia.com...
[4] http://www.mangafox.com...
[5] http://bleach.wikia.com...
[6] http://bleach.wikia.com...
[7] http://www.mangafox.com...
[8] http://bleach.wikia.com...
[9] http://www.mangafox.com...;
[10] http://www.mangafox.com...;
[11] http://www.mangafox.com...;
Ore_Ele

Con

I thank my opponent for starting this debate and putting a large amount of effort into the opening round. Given that there are around 9,000 pages in the Bleach manga and about 11,000 pages in the Naruto manga, it must be a real pein (lol) to find the right page.

I would first like to address my opponent's most powerful and damning argument, the sexy technique. While Naruto may seem appealing to many many younger boys, it is important to remember that Naruto is still a man, so any "thoughts" one may have, are basically "thoughts" about another man, or at best, a tranny. While there is nothing wrong with those kind of "thoughts" (THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!) they are not "thoughts" held by a majority of young boys and so I believe that it will actually hurt more than help Naruto.

On to the other, minor points of these debate (let's face it, everything is about boobs, the rest of the stuff, plot, fights, talking, is all just filler, but it still needs to be addressed), I will defend against my opponent's arguments and than make my own.

1. Plot

"The first Captain (highest ranked soul reaper) that Ichigo fights is Zaraki Kenpachi..."

We have to remember that no character is stagnant. Kenpachi is a character that enjoys fighting and growing stronger more than anyone, so it would be only natural to assume that his strength is capable of growing rapidly through his training. He was able to become one of the most powerful captians without even having a bankai, through shear training alone. This training is mostly tied to his eye patch [1]. It drains his energy, making him grow stronger while doing more minimal tasks. Much like running with weights to increase the effect of the trainning.

"Aizen forgets how to use Ky��ka Suigetsu during the final battle with Ichigo..."

This is actually not true. Since Ichigo has not seen the release of his zanpatuko, he cannot be effected by it [2]. This means that Aizen would have to fight by other means. Now some may say that Aizen could have just released his zanpatuko in the battle to control Ichigo's senses, but we can see that Aizen has never been able to control someone through that method. Everyone that he has controled, he has gotten them under his control by showing it to them when they were not fighting him (namely showing it off to the captians and the espada).

"One of the most intriguing aspects of Bleach has been the main villain Aizen..."

This, I can't disagree with too much. I also had issues with how the story ended at that point. However, it was far less of a disappointment than the Naruto vs Pain arc, of which after a rather awesome battle, Naruto finds Nagato (Pain) and decides that he will not fight him. This makes Nagato somehow decide to sacrifice his life to undo all the damage and death that he has done in the battle [3]. No battle at all. It is nice to idealise that words alone can change people, but words with no backing behind them are sad. Naruto is basically saying "you are trying to kill a lot of people and should stop, but I'm not going to stop you if you continue," and just crosses his fingers. Now had Naruto been prepared to fight and Nagato saw the light on his own before a fight broke out, that would be cool.

2) Characters

"Character development in Naruto > character development in Bleach. Why? We need only look at the two protagonists..."

Actually, any story relies on a lot more than just the one main character, so looking at those two is not very accurate. In Bleach, there are many more characters which have developed greatly, from Inoue, Chad, Uryu (especially in the current arc), to the captains to even Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. We have even seen several times a growing development between Ichigo and his zanapuko and recent developments pointing to an upcoming scenes with his father [11].

My opponent states that the lines of Good and Evil are often blurred in Naruto, but this is also the case Bleach. The very fact that Aizen was not some always evil spirit, but a member of the "good guys," to the way that soul society ("good guys") handles some issues (like executing Rukia [4]). One biggest forms of Naruto's maturity evolution is his speech with Nagatu, saying that he plans on breaking the cycle of hate, and refusing to fight because that would continue the cycle of hate (despite the fact that Nagatu had killed Kakashi and Hinita at that time, which thousands more), but we can see in the very latest chapter, that Naruto is willing to fight against his own allys [5], a complete flip from previous.

3) The fights

"The fights in Naruto are simply more varied, original and interesting than in Bleach."

Having more moves does not make a battle more interesting, but if we choose to use that standard, it is well noted that every single captain in Bleach has a different Bankai, their Zanapukos take on different forms (so they are fighting with different weapons), and they have countless different types of kidos. However, Naruto likes to just make stuff up on the spot. Nagato is a perfect example of this. After the battles, with countless dead, Nagato pulls a made up move out of his back side, that allows EVERYONE TO BE REVIVED [3]. So rather than using skills that they already know to combat a challenge, they simply make up something new. This is just as bad, if not worse, than saying they simply over-powered it.

4) Art work

This point wasn't brought up by my opponent, which understandibly is minor, falling behind other aspects, but still needs addressing. There are really two different forms of art work that needs to be considered. That of the characters when they are fighting, and when they are not. Let us compare two recent images for fights, Bleach [6] and Naruto [7], as well as non fights, Bleach [8] and Naruto [9]. In both cases, Bleach puts more detail into the characters and attacks. I can actually go back to the first time I conciously noticed a decline in the artwork for Naruto, as it was long before this debate even got me thinking about it. Here, Madara has almost no detail at all in thie entire chapter, Sasuke doesn't have much either [10].

[1] http://read.homeunix.com... c101-200/Bleach c113/[manga-rain]bleach-ch113-05.png
[2] http://read.homeunix.com... c101-200/Bleach c171/[manga-rain]bleach-ch171-13.png&server=nas.html
[3] http://read.homeunix.com... c449/01.png&server=nas.html
[4] http://read.homeunix.com... c101-200/Bleach c150/[manga-rain]bleach-ch150-06.png&server=nas.html
[5] http://read.homeunix.com... c541/009.png&server=nas.html
[6] http://read.homeunix.com... c350/17.jpg&server=nas.html
[7] http://read.homeunix.com... c441/17.png&server=nas.html
[8] http://read.homeunix.com... c365/05.jpg&server=nas.html
[9] http://read.homeunix.com... c440/11.png&server=nas.html
[10] http://read.homeunix.com... c301-400/Naruto c397/ch397_UK_Page_15.jpg&server=nas.html
[11] http://read.homeunix.com... c448/020.png&server=nas.html
Debate Round No. 2
Kinesis

Pro

I must admit, I'm surprised Con didn't immediately surrender upon seeing that I intended to use 'The Sexy Technique' against him. However, he brings up a good point - is Naruto really still a man when he transforms? Well, the description says that he *transforms* into a woman, so no, he isn't a tranny. Besides, the question wasn't whether you would find it wrong that you were attracted to a man who suddenly has transformed into a naked woman, the question was whether you would be able to *resist*. And let's be honest, some of you guys are pretty desperate.

With that in mind, let's continue.

1: On plot fails.


a. Con contends that Kenpachi might have become more powerful in the interval leading to his battle with the fifth espada. I concede that this is possible, though not documented anywhere. However, are we really to believe that Kenpachi has grown more than five times as powerful as he was before? Aizen stated that he has double the reiatsu of a normal captain [1], implying that there is an average power level for the captains, of which he is double (since reiatsu is generally regarded as a rough indicator of how powerful a soul reaper is in Bleach - i.e. the captains have far more than their lieutenants). If Kenpachi was powerful enough to become a captain and then became more than five times stronger, that would have the absurd implication that Kenpachi is far more powerful than Aizen.

b. Con contends that since Ichigo has not seen Aizen's release, then Aizen's ability is useless against him. However, this is simply not tenable. Ichigo and Aizen had been fighting for two arcs and dozens of chapters, with no sign of Ichigo attempting to avoid looking at Aizen's sword; Aizen could have easily shown him the release. Even more importantly, Ichigo states that he mustn't 'look at the shikai', and states that 'BECAUSE OF THAT' he 'has to decide it with one attack' [2] when he tries to launch a sneak attack on Aizen. The clear implication is that if Ichigo got into an extended battle with Aizen he would be able to use his ability on Ichigo.

2. On recent arc ending.

Con concedes that the Bleach arc ending was poor, but maintains that the arc ending with Pein was even worse. I'll address this in a moment, but let me point out that while Pein has only been a villain in Naruto for a relatively short time, Aizen has been the main antagonist in Bleach for most of its running, so the lack luster ending here bit much harder. But was the arc ending poor? Con summarises it too briefly to appreciate it or put it into context. Firstly, Naruto had been in an epic extended battle with all Pein's bodies for several chapters beforehand. When he finds Pein's real body, it's a shrivelled husk not really capable of fighting properly. Naruto, instead of deciding to fight him, decides to listen to Pein's story and come to a conclusion on how to break 'the cycle of hatred' Pein has fought to resolve. Naruto doesn't just say "you are trying to kill a lot of people and should stop, but I'm not going to stop you if you continue" and cross his fingers: he listens to Pein's story to understand his motivations and ideology, and then uses the words of his mentor (whom Pein killed) to persuade Pein to stop.

Far from lackluster, it's a well conceived conclusion that brings together a great number of previous events. If Naruto had been prepared to kill Pein, that would have missed the whole point - Pein went down that route and fell to evil, whereas it takes strength to break the cycle of hatred without killing.

3: The characters.

I agree that looking at the main characters can't tell you everything - however, it's very important considering the main plot revolves around the main character. Con brings up some side-characters that have had some development over the run of the series. However, they don't even compare to characters like Sasuke, Itachi, Tsunade, Sakura or any number of other characters from Naruto, all of which have deeper, more intricate and detailed backgrounds, and who have progressed in a much more significant way - from love-sick girl to disillusioned teenager, from drunken gambler to Hokage, from resentful child to maniacal mass murderer.

Con points out that Bleach also blurs the borders between good and evil - well for a start, the example he gives (Rukia's execution) was fairly contrived in any case, IMO - a typical save the distressed heroine storyline. But my point was broader than that - that the characters have developed a great deal, much more than the characters in Bleach. Con argues that Naruto is being inconsistent. However, I think it's clear form the context that what Naruto is talking about is killing, not fighting. In any case, the fight in the recent chapter was hardly a serious fight, never mind one to the death.

4: Artwork.

I think that Con is confusing number of line strokes with detail here. The best drawing are economical - i.e., they use as few strokes as possible to avoid looking cluttered, but still convey detail. I think that if people look at Con's examples from Bleach (for example, Bleach 350 Page 17 [3]), it's far from obvious that they're more detailed, but they may be more cluttered. In any case, to be honest I don't see much difference between the two (Con's references are in the comments section) and Con concedes this is a relatively minor point in any case. It's difficult to evaluate the superiority of one art style over another, especially when they're so similar and over such a long period of time, like Bleach and Naruto.

[1] http://www.mangafox.com...
[2] http://www.mangareader.net...
[3] http://www.mangafox.com...
Ore_Ele

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate. After this, we will be going into the final round and so only be able to make limited arguments.

1) Plot failures.

a. It is not documented anywhere the exact level of his growth, as it isn't for any captains. However, it is shown that the captains are training extensively, as they briefly shown here [1]. It also isn't hard to grasp that there is now a drive to get stronger, while before, it was a time of relative peace, and so, relaxation.

Looking at the link provided by my opponent (regarding Aizen), the exact words are (I'm assuming accurate translation) "through temporarily fusing with one who has double the reiatsu of captain level... instantaneously, it'll exert the same level of power that hougyoku has when it is fully awaken" [2]. Now this is broken along several bubbles and so can be hard to follow. But it doesn't actually say that is the limit of Aizen's power, and based upon the pictures, Aizen reaches the needed level of power rather easily. In fact, based upon other statements by Aizen, the hougyoku would not accept anyone accept those that were so powerful [3], so that "double" level may likely just be a minimum needed, rather than a maximum.

b. Ichigo is certainly under this assumption, and it is based entirely off of a short conversation with a captain. We must remember that Aizen has never used this ability in battle. The trance has always been instigated when his "opponents" were not fighting him. We can also see, that in first battle between Ichigo and Aizen, Aizen was more than satisfied with showing the great difference between the two. No need to use him main power, unlike before when he had challenging objectives other than just defeating an opponent. He could have killed Ichigo had he wanted, but chose not to. We even see that at the end of the Aizen ark, that Ichigo has a theory on what was going through Aizen's mind and heart, and was guessing that Aizen only wanted someone to be on his level power-wise [5]. This would explain why Aizen went to so much effort for Ichigo and why he never used that ability.

c. (Naruto's Pain ending) Nagato has actually been a main antagonist for much of the story, not just another member, since he has been the leader of Akatsuki. The Akatsuki first appear in charpter 141 [6] and Nagato finally passes in 449 [7]. That is over 1/2 of the entire manga. My opponent states that Nagato is a "a shrivelled husk not really capable of fighting properly." But yet he is referred to as "the 7th pain, able to control life and death" [7]. He shows to have the power to bring back countless lives from the dead, as in, completely alive, not just controlled like puppets. He is also revived to fight in the upcoming battle, indication that despite his physical appearance, he is quite powerful.

2. Characters

One thing that should be noted is that character background is not the same as character development, as the development is based on how a character develops in the story. Nagato (since we are talking about him a lot) has little development (in fact, none other than his final act before dying), even though he has a lot of backstory. The same applies to Urahara, who has a lot of back story, but not much in line of actual development within the story.

3. Art work, I will also concede that the art work is not sufficiently important for either of these stories. After all, I don't think there is a high population that reads either of these with the artwork as their main point. And since the Sexy Technique is primarily an "artistic" argument (let's face it, no one is attracted to him/her/whatever because of its personality), we both concede to drop that as not important (that was the most important thing for me to do, was invalidate the sexy technique).

Thank you,

[1] http://www.mangafox.com...
[2] http://www.mangafox.com...
[3] http://www.mangareader.net...
[4] http://www.mangareader.net...
[5] http://www.mangareader.net...
[6] http://naruto.wikia.com...
[7] http://www.mangareader.net...
Debate Round No. 3
Kinesis

Pro

Thanks to you to, Con. It's been fun.

1) Plot failures

a. Again, while it's plausible to claim that a captain could hone or increase his abilities by training, increasing his power by over 5 times in such a short period of time (it can't be more than a few years arc-wise, and bankai takes at least 10 years to acheive [1]) is simply not tenable. The link Con gives doesn't really show a captain working to vastly increase their power, but Hitsugaya performing light training to keep his skills sharp.

Well, it does if read literally say that twice is the limit of Aizen's power. But putting that aside, When Ichigo is talking to Unohana [2] she clearly states that Ichigo has double the reitsu of a normal captain and that he had a chance against Aizen because of it. If Aizen's power level was greater than five times that of a normal captain, she would hardly be so optimistic. In fact, if Aizen were so powerful surely he would have just immediately slaughtered all the captains with no worry of being hurt by their swords? Why would he even need to use Kyōka Suigetsu's ability?

b. There is simply no reason to think that Aizen could not release his zanpakto in battle. Ichigo believes that Aizen could put him under Kyōka Suigetsu's hypnosis at any time, and he is correct as far as we can tell. Besides even if there is an invented rule that Aizen for some reason can't use his ability in battle, that doesn't address my point. I just expressed my dissapointment that Aizen's ability was not adequately addressed in the final battle - an arbitrary rule like that misses the point. That goes for Con's other suggestions as well. Sure, it's possible that Aizen purposefully neutered himself by not using his ability because he secretely wanted to lose, but that doesn't address the point that it was a dissapointing way for Ichigo to avoid having to deal with Aizen's ability. Besides, surely Ichigo would have mentioned that Aizen hadn't used his ability when he talked about Aizen possibly secretely wishing to lose his shinigami powers [3]? It seems like an important plot point to pass over.


c. Nagato had been a character in the manga for some time, but only as a shadowy figue in the background, with few lines and not even properly shown until much later than chapter 141. Aizen, by contrast, had been a fully fledged character for most of the manga and moreover, was the main protagonist while Nagato is just one amongst several. Con points out that Nagato had the aility to control life and death, but the fact is that this ability is never shown to be used offensively and we don't know how it could be used, especially when Nagato was so weakened. And of course Nagato is powerful being the leader of the Akatsuki, but we don't know how he will be used - perhaps he will simply revive the seven bodies of pain again. I'm really not convinced that this ending is nearly as dissapointing as the finale with Aizen - if, indeed, it was even at all dissapointing.

2) Characters

I think that the character development and character background are inextricably linked, since the backstory of a character can show how the character progresses from their earlier selves to the current selves in the series. Sure, Nagato has little character development in the current events of the manga so far, but he does have character development insofar as he is shown to have become slowly consumed by revenge from his persecusion and betrayal from characters like Danzo and Hanzo and the death of his friend. Besodes, this doesn't address all the other characters I've mentioned, like Sasuke, Naruto, Tsunade and Sakura; all of whom have a greater degree of development than pretty much any of the characters from Bleach.

3) Art work.

Con pretty much concedes this point.

Per the sexy technique, it's pretty obvious that this wins me the debate anyway so I guess I won't pursue the issue.

Vote Pro, thanks for the debate OreEle. ^^


[1] http://bleach.wikia.com...;
[2] http://manga.animea.net...;
[3] http://manga.animea.net...;
Ore_Ele

Con

I thank my opponent for a debate that is surprisingly far more challenging than most political or philosophical debates. I never realized how difficult it would be to try to find that one page among 9,000 needed for back up.

I will summarize each of the four points that this was about.

1) Plot, which this debate focused mostly around.

Mostly focused around the (claimed) disappointing arc endings of Nagato and Aizen in Naruto and Bleach, respectfully. In regards to Bleach, it was mostly focused around Aizen's lack of an attempt to use of Kyōka Suigetsu, as well as the captains' power growth rate (inconsistancies). In regards to Naruto, it was how Nagato choose to stop fighting and end his own life.

2) Characters.

Little was actually done, since it is not really possible to show character development with a single page from the manga. This mostly consisted of the characters from [insert manga here] have better development than the other.

3) Battles.

This was dropped by my opponent after the second round when I brought up that simply having a wide verity of different moves does not equal most indepth battles. Since when a character is stumpped, rather than having them work through their difficulties, you just need to pull a new move out of nowhere.

4) Artwork.

My opponent says I concede this point, however I was clear that we both agreed that it was a tiny aspect, not concede it.

Let's quickly sumarrize the "concessions."

Opponent's R2 - no argument for art work at all.

My R2 - "This point wasn't brought up by my opponent, which understandibly is minor, falling behind other aspects, but still needs addressing..."

Opponent's R3 - "In any case, to be honest I don't see much difference between the two (Con's references are in the comments section) and Con concedes this is a relatively minor point in any case. It's difficult to evaluate the superiority of one art style over another, especially when they're so similar and over such a long period of time, like Bleach and Naruto."

My R3 - "Art work, I will also concede that the art work is not sufficiently important for either of these stories."

I think it is a fair assessment that we both came to an agreement that the Artwork is not an important feature to argue, namely because we wanted to spend our limited characters on more important things.

I thank my opponent for this wonderful debate and now put it before the voters.
Debate Round No. 4
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 000ike 5 years ago
000ike
Thankyou! Finally someone who has acknowledged that bleach is crap and naruto rules. You ever notice how in bleach they all have disproportional legs and when they speak, their teeth are still showing while their mouths are moving. They try to be funny in the stupidest situations and their powers are unimpressive and senseless. They turn into skeletons with swords...so what?

Naruto is also deeper and more sophisticated in plot. Naruto is about friendship, bleach is about fighting in some portal.
Posted by dsand 5 years ago
dsand
I truly disagree with this I'm a fan of naruto and bleach, and both are good mangas pretty much equal to me. To say bleach have holes in its plot and have say that the last arc ended poorly you can say the same about naruto. I will break down the last arc of bleach to you. Lets see
ichigo vs Byakuya Kuchiki the reason ichigo had a major jump in power was explained. It usually take 100 years to obtain bankai, BUT ichigo went threw a process that allowed a soul reaper to obtain it in 3 days by forcing their zanpaktou to submit.
Ok now lets look at the time frame from that point to the last arc, its repeated over and over and over that ichigo bankai was not fully unlocked of all its potential, at specially with his inner hollow.
ok now we going to break it down even more
his regular bankai form is a total separate being from his hollow form.
this is one reason he never saw the bankai zangestu form because he was depending on the hollow side (reason inside of his zanpaktou world it was flooded) his despair is his hollow.
Ichigo vs Ulquiorra Cifer
in the final battle his hollow form reach a vastro lorde level of power (strongest form of hollow/espada) this level overpowered ulquiorra.
ok fast forward it when fighting aizen he becomes so powerful is because his two separate sides have finally fused completely.
Also aizen explained that if your powerful enough you can overcome a zanpaktou special effects on heir enemies. thus forth even if he tried to use it on ichigo it would have no affect. actually reading and watching the final arc made it even more epic, overall ichigo is cool
Posted by Kinesis 5 years ago
Kinesis
Yeah, lol, don't read the debate until you've finished the last arc.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
Yes, there are spoilers. Most of the arguments focused around the end of the last Arc.
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
As an anime fan, I feel obligated to read and participate here. On the other hand, I am not up to date on Bleach and fear the presence of spoilers in the arguments. I'm torn!
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
[1] Bleach ch 115 pg 5
[2] Bleach ch 171 pg 13
[3] Naruto ch 449 pg 1
[4] Bleach ch 150 pg 6
[5] Naruto ch 541 pg 9
[6] Bleach ch 350 pg 17
[7] Naruto ch 441 pg 17
[8] Bleach ch 365 pg 5
[9] Naruto ch 440 pg 11
[10] Naruto ch 397 pg 15
[11] Bleach ch 448 pg 20

Just as a reminder, these are my round 2 sources. Since the links didn't work.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
okay, I finally get a chance to get to this.
Posted by Kinesis 5 years ago
Kinesis
Oh, no, it's just the end of the last arc. My mistake.
Posted by Kinesis 5 years ago
Kinesis
Actually, it appears to have concluded now: http://www.mangafox.com... (I hadn't been reading it for a while) so I guess the issue doesn't come up.
Posted by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
Though if it does "seasons" then I can imagine that breaks in between them would get it placed in that category.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
KinesisOre_EleTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I think pro explained his points just slightly better, enough to beat con's rebuttals.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
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Reasons for voting decision: Though I remain an ardent Bleach fan and Naruto loather, I sided with Pro in this debate. I found no arguments in favor of Bleach compelling, which means any arguments in which Naruto was superior to Bleach would affirm the resolution. This was the case in both the plot and character development contentions, due larger to Pro's highly detailed points and counter-points. Excellent debate!
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
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Reasons for voting decision: "The link Con gives doesn't really show a captain working to vastly increase their power, but Hitsugaya performing light training to keep his skills sharp. " - not knowing anything about these two works of art I could simply look at the arguments and assess the counter points. While both sides flowed well, were properly organized and each made solid points (yes it is all about the boobs), in the end counter points such as noted by Kinesis would make me lean every so slightly to Pro 3:2.
Vote Placed by GeorgeCarlinWorshipper 5 years ago
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
KinesisOre_EleTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro convinced me and had better splelgni/grammers. Con also had a lot of broken links.
Vote Placed by SuperRobotWars 5 years ago
SuperRobotWars
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Reasons for voting decision: Cons arguments were more convincing to me and he used his sources better.