The Instigator
nateriverx
Pro (for)
Losing
35 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
42 Points

Nate River vs. Light Yagami (kira)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/27/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 8,659 times Debate No: 6658
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (11)

 

nateriverx

Pro

It seems that many fans of the Death Note series have found the fact that Nate River was able to defeat Light Yagami a simple fluke. They seem to think that it was all some sort of spontanious shot of brillance that helped him win.
Nate River has a extremely high IQ, he saw through many forms of deception and kept to his solitary belief in what his "Mentor" left him with. This was that, no matter how many steps and investigations were done, Light Yagami seemed to come out squeaky clean, which increased his questioning. A normal person would not be so squeaky clean in such an investigation, and then there is the holding cell incident. Light Yagami gave himself up to L saying that he felt he may be "Kira" and then a few days in he seemed to have a complete change of heart. Then Light seemed to grow more stressed and lost after he touched the Death Note within the hellicopter. L recorded all of these thoughts and ideas and Watari sent those relative thoughts to show the young detectives how a real investigation was done. When L died, Nate River was able to view these files and immediately came to the same conclusion as L. This led to him calling Light Yagami Kira, the first time they met on the phone. He did this so that those around Light would become more curious and cause Light to become more reckless in his inevitable faceoff with such a intellegent detective. He worked with his rival to bring down Yagami, Light. Near's "partners" helped him grab the deathnote from Lights "replacement" while rapidly replacing all data into a fake deathnote which was left in the replacements hands.
Logical-Master

Con

Good evening ladies and gentleman. In today's case (and as evident by my opponent's first two sentences), we shall be exploring the matter of whether or not Nate River (Near) simply got lucky when it came to triumphing over Light Yagami. Obviously, it is up to me to disprove this notion. First, I shall respond to PRO's arguments and then I shall make arguments of my own.

Having briefly looked over PRO's case, it's essentially a retelling of what occurred in the series. Though not entirely accurate (such as claiming that N had access to all of L's files), it is true for the most part. That said, Near didn't win based on his own ability. He would have most certainly lost if not for a few unpredictable circumstances:

Circumstance 1) Mello kidnapped Takada: As Near himself had admitted, he had no control over Mello and could not anticipate anything that Mello would do. Given that a fluke is simply a beneficial occurrence where one's own ability has no control over the outcome, this would qualify as a fluke.

Circumstance 2) Teru Mikami behaved out of character and didn't follow Light's plan: Not only was this something which Near didn't contribute to, but for Pete's sake, Mikami had followed Light without question in earlier instances while not necessarily understanding his motivation. For instance, take this panel into consideration:http://www.onemanga.com...

He doesn't even question Light's methods even while being doubtful of them. He believes Kira to be God, hence absolute. So why the heck would Mikami then turn around and do something completely opposite? Not only a fluke, but bad writing as well. ;) Due to Mikami's out of character behavior, this allowed Near to get the real notebook from Light, hence make his move. In other words, without Mikami behaving out of character (something which Near had no control over, hence a fluke), Near would have lost.

Conclusion: As Light had put it, Near is nothing compared to L. He make a lot of dumb mistakes and played right into Light's hand the entire time while believing the opposite. If not for the two unpredictable occurrences which I mentioned, he would have been dead and Light would have won.

With that said, I'll play one card face down and end my turn. Lets have fun. :D
Debate Round No. 1
nateriverx

Pro

Fantastic Argument. However, since this is the midway point of our...let's call it a duel...i must now push away all of your evidence as proof to my own case. IF you looked, it states that " Pieces of the data from L's computer was passed onto us. It seems that L thought that you, Light Yagami, was and still is KIRA. I agree. If those in the department dont agree with me I ask you to think this through and look at the past evidence and how Light reacted to each one."
Near and Mello were rivals so it is true that Near and Mello had no control over each other, however Mello broke into Nears "Headquarters" with a girl wearing a towel as hostage. We only see brief pieces of this conversation, but afterwards it seems that they know almost exactly what the other is doing, and while Mello has the DeathNote he kills of Fake members of Nate Rivers team. This further supports the conspiracy that they worked together or at least partially. Yet, as my opponent has stated "Mello kidnapped Takada: As Near himself had admitted, he had no control over Mello and could not anticipate anything that Mello would do." There was times when Near would not know such actions had occured, or is it that he played naive to enrage and misguide people for his own benefit?
As for Mikami... He was a puppet, a pawn if you will. If you give a pawn enough power, then they will try to use it to the best of their ability. However, where my opponent states he acted out of the ordinary, I have to say that he was acting in order to protect his master. During this time, he got a call and was asked to get pages from the deathnote. Normally, he goes once a month, but this time he went twice, which seemed weird to people, considering how his life always followed the same path, day after day. Yet, as I have stated, it was in, what he thought, to protect and help his god.
As to you statement that Near was nothing compared to L, I have this to say. Team LMN. L was quoted around age 25 at time of death. M was timed at age 18 at time of death. N was still only 17 when Light Yagami died. The huge age gap between L and N caused him to seem less...anbig...no, made him seem just LESS than L. However the fact that Light did not control the deathnote himself, but instead left it in the hands of "lesser beings" as he called them, put him at risk. Near took advantage of this, stole the deathnote, and had someone replace it and copy down the names every day so it would look like Mikami's handwrighting and the people would still die. This is the childlike masterpiece that led to Lights demise.

With that said, I will place one card face down in defense mode and end my turn. It's just begginning. :)
Logical-Master

Con

------>RE:IF you looked, it states that " Pieces of the data from L's computer was passed onto us. It seems that L thought that you, Light Yagami, was and still is KIRA. I agree. If those in the department dont agree with me I ask you to think this through and look at the past evidence and how Light reacted to each one."

That is indeed the case, but viewing all the files simply did not occur. Otherwise, the scene with Near Deducing that it was Light Yagami and his father whom L had tested when Light had lost his memory would have been utterly superfluous. There were too many things which Near wasn't initially aware of that had occurred under L's investigation. Nevertheless, as I've implied, my opponent's inconsistency holds no real bearing on this debate.

----->RE: "Near and Mello were rivals so it is true that Near and Mello had no control over each other, however Mello broke into Nears "Headquarters" with a girl wearing a towel as hostage. We only see brief pieces of this conversation, but afterwards it seems that they know almost exactly what the other is doing, and while Mello has the DeathNote he kills of Fake members of Nate Rivers team. This further supports the conspiracy that they worked together or at least partially. Yet, as my opponent has stated "Mello kidnapped Takada: As Near himself had admitted, he had no control over Mello and could not anticipate anything that Mello would do." There was times when Near would not know such actions had occured, or is it that he played naive to enrage and misguide people for his own benefit?"

1) In regards to the idea that Mello was killing off fake SPK members, this couldn't be further from the truth:

http://www.onemanga.com...
http://www.onemanga.com...

As Near suggest, Mello killed off the SPK members because he deemed them as a threat in not only contributing to helping Near catch Kira before he did, but possibly capturing him as well (thus getting a hold of the notebook).

2) In regards to us not being able to see the entire conversation Mello and Near has when Mello breaks into his HQ . . . this is false as we see the entire conversation as evident by the manga: http://www.onemanga.com...

No place in the conversation due they even imply that they shall be teaming up. In fact, at the very end of the conversation, they insist quite the opposite. Thus, this theory of secrecy which my opponent is attempting to pass off is baseless conjecture at best.

3) Of course, to go even a step further, the comments being made about Mello in this chapter as well as on this page precisely are the ultimate proof that he and Near were not secretly working together as my opponent would like you to believe: http://www.onemanga.com...

By the way Near tells it, Mello not only believed that he'd get ahead of Near by HIS (a word which refers to a single individual) actions but also believed that his efforts added onto Near's could beat Kira. In other words, it was all Mello's doing. Near had NO control. So to answer my opponent's question which he leaves at the end of the above paragraph which I am quoting, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Near was merely being naive to enrage and misguide people for his own benefit. He was completely confident in his previous plan and did not even slightly suspect that something was amiss.

---->RE:"As for Mikami... He was a puppet, a pawn if you will. If you give a pawn enough power, then they will try to use it to the best of their ability."

Perhaps, but Mikami wasn't just any pawn. As evident from my manga citing in the previous round, he was the closest thing to a pawn one could hope to imagine. He obeyed Light's orders even if he did see fault or possible error in them.

----->RE"However, where my opponent states he acted out of the ordinary, I have to say that he was acting in order to protect his master. During this time, he got a call and was asked to get pages from the deathnote. Normally, he goes once a month, but this time he went twice, which seemed weird to people, considering how his life always followed the same path, day after day. Yet, as I have stated, it was in, what he thought, to protect and help his god."

So why not help his god by acting against the orders he was given in the panel I cited in R1? Clearly, "he wanted to help his god" isn't really a sufficient answer to this conundrum. The only reasonable answer to this question is that it was bad writing. Now if we had actually seen Mikami questioning and going against Light's orders previously, my opponent would have a case, but without any such thing, it's just a complete 180 in terms of character portrayal and merely shows that the author couldn't think of a way to actually have Light defeated that wouldn't involve poor writing. To add, Near (nor even Mello) contributed to Mikami slipping up, so it's a fluke regardless of how we look at it.

---------->RE:"As to you statement that Near was nothing compared to L, I have this to say. Team LMN. L was quoted around age 25 at time of death. M was timed at age 18 at time of death. N was still only 17 when Light Yagami died. "

Irrelevant. Near and Mello were in fact inferior to L. Why is it that it's stated that neither of them could have surpassed L alone? To add, why is it that it's stated that L would have considered the possibility that the initial exposed notebook was a fake? Simple: Because neither Mello or Near were on L's level. It didn't merely SEEM like this. This was in FACT the case.

------------->RE:"However the fact that Light did not control the deathnote himself, but instead left it in the hands of "lesser beings" as he called them, put him at risk. Near took advantage of this, stole the deathnote, and had someone replace it and copy down the names every day so it would look like Mikami's handwrighting and the people would still die. This is the childlike masterpiece that led to Lights demise."

All of which he wouldn't have been able to do successfully if not for

1) Mello (someone whom he had absolutely no control over) kidnapping Takada
2) Mikami (again, someone who he had no control/effect on) behaving out of character and questioning Light's orders for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON in spite of being portrayed as one who wouldn't do so in the past.

Without the above hidden variables which Near had no control over, he would have lost plainly. Hence, his victory is nothing of me winning the lottery or getting struck by lightning.

RE:"With that said, I will place one card face down in defense mode and end my turn. It's just begginning. :)"

Seeing as how I've auto summoned my great beast "Manga proof" to the field with the aid of my previous facedown cards, things look pretty grim for my opponent. In the next round, his life points will be toast. I'll place one more card face down and end my turn.
Debate Round No. 2
nateriverx

Pro

I see that my rushed arguements have left a blurred impression and a even worse case. I will make this closing statement short, very short. If you read " The Author's Notes " he states that he had written more to the chat between Near and Mello in their meeting, but cut it as he figured it would cause people to think. In this he had them form a small pact that would help both as the main objective was to catch KIRA and yet not give the other so far an advantage that they would FAR surpass the other in the "race" I would like to post these links, but however my computer is...acting up due to varius power surges. I once again apologize for my lack of effort, though i do not wish this to sound like an excuse due to the fact that I am posting these of my own free will knowing the consequinces. All that remains is to thank my opponent for a AMAZING match and ask all who will to please VOTE FOR CON. Places down a kuriboh in attack mode, and then sacrifices half my life points to ressurect a card from the grave. Another kuriboh appears on the field. VOTE pro or VOTE FOR CON---Nateriverx
Logical-Master

Con

------>RE:"If you read " The Author's Notes " he states that he had written more to the chat between Near and Mello in their meeting, but cut it as he figured it would cause people to think. In this he had them form a small pact that would help both as the main objective was to catch KIRA and yet not give the other so far an advantage that they would FAR surpass the other in the "race""

Even if Near and Mello had joined forces (which, once more, I'd like to point out that the links I've provided in the previous round suggest nothing more than individual work), this still wouldn't change the problem concerning Mikami's convenient decision to disobey Light and write a name in the notebook. We must keep in mind that neither Near or Mello had the intelligence to figure this out. As Light pointed out, ONLY L would have considered this as a possibility. Hence, still a fluke.

Anyway, as you can see, my opponent has stated that you should vote CON, hence I believe my work here has been done.

----RE: "Places down a kuriboh in attack mode, and then sacrifices half my life points to ressurect a card from the grave. Another kuriboh appears on the field. VOTE pro or VOTE FOR CON---Nateriverx"

Whereas this could be possibly good move, I'm afraid this duel is finished. First, I reveal my face down card to be "Harpee's Fever dester" This dispels the face down card my opponent has. Finally, my beast "Manga Proof" with its attack power of 5500 destroys the kuriboh in attack mode, hence losing my opponent the rest of his life points.

Anywho, thanks for the debate. Later. :D
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by nateriverx 8 years ago
nateriverx
KRFournier
yeah i agree with you
if a group of people are seriously interested in a certain aspect of some field, then
a random person entering their conversation is likely to not understand them lol
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
Now, that doesn't mean all shows that are subbed are good, but once they get dubbed it means there is an American market for it. It would not get dubbed unless there was. The anime market in America isn't known for their good tastes IMO.
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
"but after 7 episodes they decided that it was a good deal"

BECAUSE it did appeal to the demographic.

I'll have faith in Adult Swim anime if they air subbed shows, which will never happen.
Posted by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
Indeed, I've never seen Death Note. I imagine what I felt is similar to what my wife feels like when walking into a room of programmers. Amazing how much language can be generated from single field of interest.
Posted by nateriverx 8 years ago
nateriverx
In latin? just a bit of terminology, and deathnote related chat lol
but if you dont watch the show i could see how it may be confusing
Posted by KRFournier 8 years ago
KRFournier
Wow, this was like reading a debate written in Latin. No votes from me, sorry.
Posted by nateriverx 8 years ago
nateriverx
lol
Actually
Adultswim was PAID ALOT of money to air it because adult swim felt it would make viewers lose faith in their showing capabilities lol
but after 7 episodes they decided that it was a good deal
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
Yes it can. Adult Swim picked it because it would appeal to a certain demographic which in turn would make money for them. That demographic usually has horrible tastes in anime.
Posted by nateriverx 8 years ago
nateriverx
it aired on adult swim like 2 or more years after the series ended lol
so it cant be compared to some of the crap that started out on there.
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
Oh, it's not. I was just using the word as an insult. I don't like the majority of anime that airs on Adult Swim. With the exception of Cowboy Bebop.
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Vote Placed by Raito 6 years ago
Raito
nateriverxLogical-MasterTied
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