The Instigator
TheCalmCanadian
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
YaHey
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Native Americans should not still recieve benefits such as scholarships (off reserveration)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
YaHey
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/6/2014 Category: Education
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 971 times Debate No: 61356
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

TheCalmCanadian

Pro

This is a friendly argument, I have nothing against Native Americans living either on or off reservation. I have respect for those who need help and support for the government and anything said in this debate will not be against those who are financially challenged and need a little help to succeed. But I do not support the government funding those who are fully independent but have Native blood, along with tax exemption I find these things extremely unfair and give them an unequal opportunity to those who are not funded. I also do not believe that a Native American with a lower grade (not by much) should qualify more than a person of any other skin to college, many universities do that in order to keep their population diverse which is understandable but it is not fair. Is that really the message that we want to pass down through the generations. That there still isn't racial equality. Native Americans get benefits whilst applying to colleges the amount of funding they get for education is crazy. I understand many of them are challenged and have been through a lot, but those aren't the ones who i'm talking about. I'm talking about urban Native Americans who have grown up away from their tribal lands and who have become fully accustomed to white society. Why should they have the jump when it comes to applying for a university?
YaHey

Con

Let's look forward to a nice, respectful debate.

It seems your entire argument is that Native American people are so privileged against all other races, at least where college (and taxes?) are concerned. This isn't true. There are scholarships for at least two other minorities, African Americans and Hispanic people. There exists many scholarship opportunities for many underrepresented groups, including, interestingly enough, Canadians [1].

"Is that really the message that we want to pass down through the generations. That there still isn't racial equality." Unfortunately, there isn't racial equality. There wasn't racial equality during the civil rights movement, yet those marching didn't seem too worried about portraying the truth to the following generations. You see, we are acknowledging a problem, an actual legitimate problem and making strides to fix these problems.

"In 2012, the median income of AI/AN (alone) households was $35,310, compared to $51,371 for the entire nation."
"In 2012, 29.1% of AI/ANs (alone) lived in poverty - the highest rate of any race group - compared to 15.9% for the entire nation." [2 will be the source for both of these tidbits.]

"I'm talking about urban Native Americans who have grown up away from their tribal lands and who have become fully accustomed to white society." I think the very fact you called it white society, (whatever happened to not promoting racial difference?) is exactly the reason why there are scholarships set up for minorities.

"But I do not support the government funding those who are fully independent but have Native blood, along with tax exemption..." Yeah, could you give some examples were Native Indians/Alaska Natives are given tax exemptions off of reservations? Federally recognized tribes are given some of these opportunities is because of treaties between the U.S. and the individual tribes (as taxes vary between the different reservations).

"All Indians are subject to federal income taxes. As sovereign entities, tribal governments have the power to levy taxes on reservation lands. Some tribes do and some don't. As a result, Indians and non-Indians may or may not pay sales taxes on goods and services purchased on the reservation depending on the tribe. However, whenever a member of an Indian tribe conducts business off the reservation, that person, like everyone else, pays both state and local taxes. State income taxes are not paid on reservation or trust lands. [3]"


Sources:
[1] https://www.scholarships.com...
[2] http://www.niea.org...;
[3] http://www.narf.org...;
Debate Round No. 1
TheCalmCanadian

Pro

As you say there are scholarships for other minorities but the difference is in numbers. Native Americans only make up .9% of the Population of the United states acording to the 2010 census. Acording to the same census ther are only 263,805 students between the ages of 15 and 19. Between the ages of 20-24 there are only 240,716 together the population of Native Americans between the ages of 15 and 24 is a combined 504,000 Native Americans compared to the 6,559,448 Black, 29,156,585. The competition is extremely low for these Natives. They are practicily giving away these scholarships. Upon further research I found that there is oportunity for them to gain scolarships even with a minimum GPA of 2.00 Which is extremely low compared to the numbers required for White or African American students wishing to gain a scolarship. An average student Native American students has more opportunity than a great student who is White (or any other race).
The little competition and the extreme levels of funds makes it especially easy for a Native to chase their dreams and follow almost every proffesion you could think of. This is not true for others, funds are limited and competition is high. In my opinion that is not fair! Why is it in their ability to not do well at the highschool level but be accepted into universities that a similar student of white descent would never dream of getting into. Not all White Americans have money flowing out of their pockets.

As to your statement about racial equality whattttt. Your claim "unfortuantly, there isn't racial equality" proves my point exactely. Students are not at an equal level is some are accepted to universities and have access to large amount of funds just because of who tehy descended to. That is not the message that we want passing down. Even in public schools they try to teach that everyone is equal but I guess in reality that is not so.

In my last statement I said white society. When I said white society I didn't necessarily mean white society. I meant American society. i've recently read a book called Native American testimony, in that book they outline events that have happened to Natives from pre colonial times to modern day. The book is written by a Native American from a Native American point of view. In the book the author reffered to the colonial society as white society. I guess that term doesn't necessarily apply here, but you get the Idea.

My main point of all this being native Americans have opportunities available to them that go unchllentged by other races. In the end if a White student and a Native American student both apply to a university. The white student has a little higher than average grade while the Native american has a little less than average grade guess whose being accepted and going to college for virtually no money!!! The Native American! In the end it's not fair and it doesn't promote those who deserve it (not saying all of them don't, but sometimes it's ridiculous.)
YaHey

Con

Native Americans only make up .9% of the Population of the United states according to the 2010 census. Okay, well the 2012 census puts them at 2%, so I am going to call into question your sources. Perhaps there was a massive influx in population that drove it up 1.1%. Seeing as they are only likely to increase .7% by the year 2060, I highly doubt this. [1].

You then list an unnamed scholarship. I am not saying that this scholarship does not exist, but for us to examine the fairness of such a scholarship both parties must know all the circumstances around this. However, I understand the overall sentiment, that Native Americans have such great opportunities for scholarships. I assume God revealed this knowledge to you, but decided to be vague because I see know statistics. Not even a statement from an actual authority. I, on the other hand, do have such a statement from an authority. To quote--

"America Indians face a unique set of challenges in gaining access to a college education and are one of the most underrepresented groups both in college and in the degree-holding population. With extreme poverty and limited access to educational resources remaining persistent problems on reservations and educated professionals also in short supply in many communities, education is a pressing concern for the American Indian community. Despite a strong desire to earn a degree, many American Indian students find themselves in a position where they cannot easily pay for school, even with the help of federal student financial aid. Luckily, American Indian scholarship opportunities exist for those students who are dedicated to beating the odds and earning a degree."

Now if they really had so many opportunities, we'd probably see this manifest somewhere. I'm waiting for something concrete.

My statement about racial inequality was not an admission that I was wrong. I am saying there is racial inequality, and these scholarships exist to fix this. I thought that was clear, but my bad. The reason more scholarship opportunities MAY exist (you haven't done much to show this) is due not to from whom they are descended, but due to the situation many NI/AN find themselves in.

I understood you equated white society with American society. If you don't grasp just the cultural difference between Colonial America from modern America, then I think you should take the two days you get to post an argument and do some research. Let me save you that time and explain, colonial America is a white dominated society with little diversity and modern America is still a mainly white dominated society but with much, much greater diversity.

Just give me a bone, or anything, just a tiny source to confirm what you are saying! Please?

Sources:
[1] http://www.infoplease.com...
[2] https://www.scholarships.com...
Debate Round No. 2
TheCalmCanadian

Pro

TheCalmCanadian forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Unfortunately we weren't having a discussion about honor, so not sure where you are coming from?
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Yahey: Honor, even in films, is ageless.And John Wayne made a career out of acting in honorable movies. He played men of honor because that is who he was, even off the set.Another movie I would recommend people to see is a movie called " TRACKERS" starring Ernest Borgnine and Sammy Davis JR.The race problem was solved between these to men the way it should be. Honor in Sammy Davis' role changed a heart, and that will stick forever.

Passing laws that outlaw racism never works.
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Perhaps it was just a reflex, but I hardly ever reflexively identify with something I find to be false. I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by TheCalmCanadian 2 years ago
TheCalmCanadian
Lol @YaHey

Calling it white society was reflex after reading that whole book. Natives themselves refered to to the general American society as a white society... Read that book, I definitely recommend it.
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Yeah, let's take life lessons from a 1963 comedy movie... set in the West? While I am sure many people are perfectly capable of being a decent moral agent, there are also many who do not act with peace or the well being of others. I do not trust these people to settle differences rationally, just as you may not trust our government.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Calm Canadian. That was a John Wayne movie called " Mcklintock.And if government would have just left them alone without agents, there would never be a way for them to steal from them. That is my point. There never has been a government agency that did more good than harm. Except the military.Just leave people alone. They will work out their differences. Wayne and that chief were onetime enemies. But because they both fought with honor, that left the door open to be friends.That is why I am so glad I grew up with those kinds of shows." how I met your mother", give me a break.
Posted by MyBrainHurts123 2 years ago
MyBrainHurts123
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Draw more lines in the sand between racial groups.
"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how moronic and wrong it is :)."
Lol, thats a little ironic coming from you. haha. But none the less true. Although it pretains to you more so than others.
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how moronic and wrong it is :).
Posted by MyBrainHurts123 2 years ago
MyBrainHurts123
Indian reservations are an unfair practice, its counter productive in promoting racial equality.. To me this seems black and white.. The YaHey guy is has been confused by the rhetoric... He does this often.
Posted by YaHey 2 years ago
YaHey
"White people have to suffer for what someone who happened to be the same race as them did 100 years ago?"
I am speechless. No words can be said for how stupid this statement is. I can't... just...

Dear God help us.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
TheCalmCanadianYaHeyTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture